Are unions a good thing? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

rfra3645 · 10-29-2004, 04:25 PM

unions could be good for some things there many operators union maybe good need to trained what ur doing new equipment all the time ect... ibew electric maybe good need to know certain codes what line needs to go where.. I have seen many non union electricians that know what they are doing. teamsters truck driving not so sure who needs to be trained to sit and drive all day they don’t even help unload there cargo. Grocery clerks??? Not so sure at all paper or plastic???? Plumbers what a joke i have seen more union plumber stuff have to redone at a cost of 60- 100 $ and hour originally usually 20 - 40 $ to get fixed.. This is my example....i work in the construction field i sub out to a large company that builds a large national or will be national before to long video chain .. We ( my non union company) build a store start to finish in 5 weeks the store opens the 6th week. Our bid is around 85,000 labor.... when we go to city’s northern IL st Louis Kansas City ECT... the union tries to force us out.. The video chain doesn’t want pickets because they are a family organization that cares about there image.. Will hire them for around 300,000 and there fastest store they have done yet in my 4 state neighborhood was 22 weeks. Allot of times they call us for advice in what to do... yet they are making 18-35 dollars an hour for there highly valuable skillz. ( HA) my question is why do they hire them i have no idea... are they useful ?? I have found verry few that are..

RCAlyra2004 · 10-29-2004, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazggul

Ying and Yang. Wax and Wain. There is the good and there is the bad. Any organized group large enough to impact policy will have both positive and negative effect. Once the clout of the organization becomes apparent it will be used by those willing to exploit its power. When this becomes apparent, their power is placed in check by other forces. And so it continues.

Unions were essential to the development of our country. They improved peoples quality of life immensly. These same checks are not longer necessary in most industries, but in some they are. It makes for great discussion.

EDIT: I say "our country" meaning "my country," the US. Sorry I wasn't specific.

Interesting Post, thanks for the material to debate with. There are currently only a few unions blocking safety improvement for companies in canada... but they are indeed doing just that. They are blocking safety efforts by management ... because to do some work more safely, they would have to accept change to some old trade oriented jurisdictional boundaries... and the employees don;t want that.... and the accidents continue to happen.... it's sad ....

2sheds · 10-29-2004, 08:15 PM

no.

.....

iccky · 10-29-2004, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Teacher's unions are almost non-existent in the Deep South, yet our educational system lags WAY behind everybody else's. Can't blame that on the unions. If Southerners must look beyond unions as the cause for our educational bankruptcy, then maybe the rest of the nation should be prepared to do so, also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

It's true that there are a few areas, notably some southern states, where teachers' unions do not have the same pernicious anti-educational stranglehold they have on the rest of the nation.

Art, you totally missed to point of his post. The point was that educational quality is the worst in the deep south, where there are no teachers unions, while is often the best in the evil unionized North. Why is this so if unions are such a bane to education?

MSD · 10-29-2004, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Magic

Do they do some positive? Of course.

Do they do some wrongs? A lot, I'd have to say.

My friend was forced to join his union. He couldn't work there unless he joined. They took out $100 of his paycheck every month. They protected many of the lazy workers and made it hard to fire horrible people who were late, lazy, and just didn't preform their job well.

On top of that, his union supports a presidental candidate (Kerry). The common worker didn't have a say in this decision. My friend is for Bush, but some of his pay check was forcibly taken and, in the end, goes to a presidental candidate he doesn't support.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. To me, this sound like the mafia collecting protection money from workers and bullying the owners.

william · 10-31-2004, 06:36 PM

Unions were good; now are bad. There was a time when unions were necessary (see 20's and 30's news). Now unions are destroying the very company they say they build. How many working-day people do you you see driving around in a 'vette?
It's not about union leaders making a devil's deal for workers - it's about workers wanting an honest living (be honest - what vehicle does your union rep drive up in?). (What vehicle did you use?)

adam · 10-31-2004, 06:46 PM

I'm confused. Do you think auto unions are the only unions?

Flyguy · 10-31-2004, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

The Equal Pay Act of 1963 gives me equal pay for equal work, not a union.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Civil Rights Act of 1991 prevents discrimination in the workplace based on race, color, sex, religion, or national origin, Not a union.

The Age Discrimination Act of 1967 protects agaisnt discrimination because of age for people over age 40, not a union.

The ADA of 1990 prevents discrimination of qualified individuals with disabilities provided they can perform the essential functions of the job, Not a union.

There was a time and a place for unions, back in in the day of sweat shops and horrendous working condition, while in some cases those conditions might exist, for the most part it's long gone. The laws on teh books protect workers, not the unions.

Not everyone abides by those laws like they would have you think.

StephenSa · 11-02-2004, 09:14 AM

I support unions. Yes there have been abuses by some union organizations and there have also been abuses by employers. When any one side has too much power sombody down the line is going to pull some stupid crap out of their ass and shove down somebody's throat. I see it as check and balance sort of thing. As a single employee I have very little power when stacked up against a large corporation if they decide to add additional job duties, extra hours and no extra pay. Yes, it can happen. With a union the company has to think twice before arbitrarily making such decisions. Here are a couple of example. I worked as a morning news director at a medium market television station. Often, I repeat OFTEN, this station would ask employees to clock out but continue to work without pay. When they asked me to do this I refused and eventually found a new employer but not everyone has that luxury and I believe a union would have stopped that employers behavior. While working in Chicago for a television production facility management started adding significant responsibilities and hours to our jobs with no increase in pay. We had a couple of meetings with a union organizer. When managment got wind of our union interest suddenly the extra work went away and our pay scale was adjusted to a living wage. The mere threat of unionization made a positive change. Again, I can't speak for all union situations and in some cases they aren't necessary but I believe they still have a place in America and can be utilized in a positve way.

MikeyChalupa · 11-02-2004, 09:31 AM

Pro sports player's unions = BAD.

-Mikey

thingstodo · 11-02-2004, 04:26 PM

I read half way through all this and then had to say something.

At one time, unions were needed. Employees were exploited in a very bad way during the industrial revolution, which lasted a long time since it just migrated from the north auto factories to the southern textile industries.

However, and there has to be a big however, that was then, this is now.

Unions cause most companies that declare bankruptcy to do just that. Companies are unable to make the changes needed to compete in today's marketplace. Moreover, unions constantly focus on the employee rather than what the employees are there to do...produce a product or service. And then they go on strike for higher wages. Which leads to the price spiral of higher prices and then the need to strike again.

Isn't it interesting that the majority of union employees are in fairly unskilled lines of work. I mean, if you can do something on an assembly line, how does that transfer to another field?? No skills., so what do you deserve for your hard work? Minimum wage...certainly not high wages and tons of benefits that aren't supported by the prices the company can charge the marketplace.

Of course, there are unions for teachers, journalists and the like. But...if the employees were good at what they do rather than good at dealing with union rules, their business would prosper.

Basically, things have changed, there is a global economy and many jobs are going/have gone overseas. Many airlines...Pan Am, Eastern to name a few, don't even exist anymore. You can chalk that up to unions.

It's simple...if you don't like where you work and have a marketable skill, go to another company. You don't need a union to make your own choice. And if you don't have those skills, get them or be quiet.

smooth · 11-03-2004, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thingstodo

I read half way through all this and then had to say something.

At one time, unions were needed. Employees were exploited in a very bad way during the industrial revolution, which lasted a long time since it just migrated from the north auto factories to the southern textile industries.

However, and there has to be a big however, that was then, this is now.

Unions cause most companies that declare bankruptcy to do just that. Companies are unable to make the changes needed to compete in today's marketplace. Moreover, unions constantly focus on the employee rather than what the employees are there to do...produce a product or service. And then they go on strike for higher wages. Which leads to the price spiral of higher prices and then the need to strike again.

Isn't it interesting that the majority of union employees are in fairly unskilled lines of work. I mean, if you can do something on an assembly line, how does that transfer to another field?? No skills., so what do you deserve for your hard work? Minimum wage...certainly not high wages and tons of benefits that aren't supported by the prices the company can charge the marketplace.

Of course, there are unions for teachers, journalists and the like. But...if the employees were good at what they do rather than good at dealing with union rules, their business would prosper.

Basically, things have changed, there is a global economy and many jobs are going/have gone overseas. Many airlines...Pan Am, Eastern to name a few, don't even exist anymore. You can chalk that up to unions.

It's simple...if you don't like where you work and have a marketable skill, go to another company. You don't need a union to make your own choice. And if you don't have those skills, get them or be quiet.

Your post is rife with misconceptions.

1. If your tasks do not translate to another field of work, that is skilled labor. You may not think the person's skillset is very valuable, but a skill is defined by the fact it must be learned--not whether you think it's a good skill to possess.

I'm going out on a limb and assuming you never worked on an assembly line. Then you list a number of professions that are considered by most rational people to be among the most skilled professions in the US. Even labor intensive jobs require skill; try this experiment: go down to your local construction site and ask if you can lug tools around for 6 hours. Then imagine what that would feel like if you did that every day for the next few months. Whether you like it or not, even jobs like that require muscle training to maintain appropriate production rates. Yes, I'm arguing that even tool caddies at construction sites possess skills. They are skills I value, btw, since I'm very much appreciative of the fact that I haven't had to build any home I've lived in. I don't have to unload ships, nor do I know how to do it very efficiently. I don't drive boats or fly planes, I don't drive trucks across country, I don't know how to cut meat in the most tasty and efficient manner, either. I don't even know the best cuts of meat, but I can always ask my skilled meat cutter at the supermarket for that info before I BBQ. I don't ever plan on picking up trash for my city, or supplying the residents their water. I never had to build a vehicle, nor do I know much about repairing them.

It would be asenine of me to think any of those workers are easily replaceable or that they don't possess knowledge about their jobs I neither have nor want.

2. The airline industries are going bankrupt because of greedy CEO's--not the unions. The unions keep taking paycuts and benefit reductions, and the government keeps giving them handouts. Yet every year for the past few years the administration of major airlines keep getting larger pay checks and bonuses while they are in danger of bankruptcy. In the spirit of capitalism, they really should just collapse and let someone (like the employees, for example) run the damn business themselves more efficiently. Imagine that: lop off the top of the corporation and allow the workers to keep doing what they've been doing for decades with the same amount of payscales they had a few years back. That would free up lucrative amounts of capital for the shareholders.

3. The need for unions was then, but is no longer? That doesn't make much sense to me. Despite the fact that all kinds of rollbacks are currently in the works, such an assertion doesn't even stand up to the common sense dictum: the reason the need for unions isn't apparent is because they exist. One wouldn't know their necessity until they are gone and all the workers' hard won rights are rolled back.

4. If unions no longer serve a purpose, won't they eventually erode without external manipulation? Invisible hand and all that jazz.

5. If employees were good at their work, their businesses would prosper? Being employees, they don't have a business, first of all. Secondly, unionized businesses do prosper. You need to check your data more carefully. In fact, some of these businesses outrank non-unionized businesses on almost every single economic measure Wall Street analyzes.

6. Recommending that people up and leave their companies to go work somewhere else on a whim indicates to me that you haven't been on the job market within the past decade. What exactly would an industrialized worker do now that our nation is on a course of deindustrialization? Go work at burger king? apply at a law office? where are all these jobs just waiting for capable workers?

thingstodo · 11-03-2004, 06:32 AM

Smooth:

I'm not going to load this up with stats since we are talking about concepts. I will make a point that we all need to feel a part of something bigger than ourselves and I don't believe that a union fits that criteria.

1. There is a big difference in the skillset of a butcher compared to that of someone that lugs tools. And while I also appreciate and value the person that is willing to lug tools around to build me a house, I don't consider it an extremely valuable skill as anyone with the physical ability could easily learn the job.

2. CEOs of many business are raping their companies. That doesn't change the responsibility of the mindset of the employees. Union employees are typically there to earn their paycheck and don't have a great deal of concern for how well the company does. They see things as only so many slices of the pie and they want their slice.

3. I lead an operation of over 500 people, connected to an even larger operation. We have no union. We treat people right, make sure they are fairly compensated and earn even more for above expectations performance, have the ability to learn and grow if they choose, I could go on. If you want to learn more about how that can work without unions, I suggest you read the Gallup organization book "First, Break All The Rules" and gain an understanding of the Q12 method. You might then read "Now, Discover YOur Strengths" and the "Follow This Path."

4. Take a look around. Most are eroding and have a fraction of the power they once had.

5. You make my point for me. The employee's business is the business they are working for. This reminds me of the many people that say "I'm going to work for myself because I want to be my own boss." How silly a notion, because the vast majority of these people end up starting a business that has customers...the most demanding and unforgiving of all bosses.

6. I'm not "Recommending that people up and leave their companies to go work somewhere else on a whim..." Any major change should be well thought out, especially BEFORE you go to work someplace. And then I refer you back to item #1. If your skillset is specific to one thing, like an assembly line, it won't transfer. As a result, you have two choices: 1. unemployment/another meanial job, 2. learn something new and make sure your investment will pay off with an ability to transfer the skillset someplace else. That butcher you mentioned previously can go to work for any grocery store or meat market out there.

I appreciate the time you invested to read my thoughts and then discuss this topic. You present a viewpoint that is valued and shared by many.

By the way, I have worked in my industry for over 26 years, 23 of those with the same company. Prior to that I was a licensed electrical contractor. I started in that field as a part-time laborer (working a second job because I was unable to earn enough from my primary job) lugging tools around. Due to that experience, I built my own house with my wife. I guess that tool lugging experience did transfer as I lugged my own around for the six months it took to build that house. Before that I worked for a brief time on a line that produced furniture. And while I was learning the electrical trade, I worked on various lines at a factory making IV solutions.

So, I experienced enough to know that I didn't want to rely on something like a union to take care of me. Rather, I learned to take care of myself and feel a part of and contribute to the success of something bigger - the business I am a part of. As a result, I am able to directly impact the the success and sometimes failure of my organization beyond just showing up each day.

By the way, I love your Lippman quote and especially the impact of First Amendment. I have been in the newspaper business for those 26-plus years Imentioned above (no, I'm not in the editorial department).

Cynthetiq · 11-03-2004, 07:06 AM

thingstodo...

if you look at the current rate of housing developers that are being sued because of shoddy workmanship all over the country you'll find that not all skilled labor is equally skilled.

day laborers are not always a replacement for someone who is a highly skilled laborer.

smooth · 11-03-2004, 08:53 AM

thingstodo,

thank you for an excellent and well-thought out response.

In regards to #3: I'm not of the brand that claims private companies will never treat their employees right without organized labor breathing down their necks.

I know of several companies (yours now included) that value their employees along with their contributions.

I do, however, still think unions have a place in this society and haven't come to the conclusion that they do more harm than good.

thingstodo · 11-04-2004, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Right.

I guess it was stupid trying to be the lone voice in a thread, on a board in the US, supporting unions.

I'm a "white collar" worker, but I support unions. Bite me.

Mr Mephisto

So it is your right to support unions and say so just as it was someone else's right to disagree and say so. No need to get testy!

thingstodo · 11-04-2004, 04:09 AM

Smooth.... I didn't mean to insinuate that unions do more harm that good, just that they don't do the good they once did. And I'm sure they serve as a deterent in some industries.

Cynthetiq....I think that shoddy workmanship you mentioned has more to do with companies trying to turn a profit by slapping up houses on the cheap. It becomes all apprearance and no substance. You can compare the same behavior with companies like Enron. Profits, spin to the consumer and marketing to Wall Street is their priority, not their product. Kind of like the mindset of those poeple I mentioned earlier that are only interested in their slice of the pies rather than creating a limitless pie.

Plus, someone that has learned a "trade" is different from those production line employees that only get skilled with the one or two things they do. Those carpenters, plumbers, etc. can take that specific skill other places. Hopefully it will be where management actually allows them to use rather than abuse their craft.

thingstodo · 11-04-2004, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iccky

Art, you totally missed to point of his post. The point was that educational quality is the worst in the deep south, where there are no teachers unions, while is often the best in the evil unionized North. Why is this so if unions are such a bane to education?

You might look into how much money is invested into education in the south, the level of corruption in relation to the investment and also compare the tax rates/base of communities that have better schools. Unions aren't a consistent variable. Demographics and the tax base have much more to do with the quality of education that do teacher unions. And all you have to do is ask a few teachers to confirm that. Accountability trumps entitlement.

Cynthetiq · 11-04-2004, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thingstodo

Cynthetiq....I think that shoddy workmanship you mentioned has more to do with companies trying to turn a profit by slapping up houses on the cheap. It becomes all apprearance and no substance. You can compare the same behavior with companies like Enron. Profits, spin to the consumer and marketing to Wall Street is their priority, not their product. Kind of like the mindset of those poeple I mentioned earlier that are only interested in their slice of the pies rather than creating a limitless pie.

Plus, someone that has learned a "trade" is different from those production line employees that only get skilled with the one or two things they do. Those carpenters, plumbers, etc. can take that specific skill other places. Hopefully it will be where management actually allows them to use rather than abuse their craft.

sure... but Union buildings, worksites, etc. are usually all union or not. I happen to be lucky in one of my investments where I got the union workers, but then the rest of the site was built buy non union. The ones built by non, is currently in class action litigation as their place is falling apart.

the union labor is a better quality in this instance.

sure I agree with some things, such as a bag boy at the grocery store, I never understood why they had to be union. The old cashiers, sure, but today's electronic monkey that just wipes it over a bar code reader, no.

Frowning Budah · 11-04-2004, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Of course unions are a good thing.

They offer protection to employees from being exploited, they fight for workers' rights (like equal pay for men and women), they offer assistance programs for their members... the list goes on and on.

Rampant, unchecked union power is not always good, but proposing unions be abolished is just silly.

Mr Mephisto

I strongly agree. I have worked for both Management and Unions they both need someone to keep them in check. Both organizations have flaws, but but the flaws are magnified if they go unchecked.

rfra3645 · 11-06-2004, 09:39 AM

well here i am again in a this thread that basicilly comes down to 2 kinds of people.

1. the kind that need and want to be told and directed evrey single move to make. do your job only do your job. never do a job that is someone elses job espcially if it will make the whole job go better faster and easier for whoever happens to be in charge of it even if that someone is you.. ie. union motivational speech.

2. the kind of people that need to get the job done the MOST EFICIANT best way it can be done. even if that means ( oh my god ) working a little bit more than is expected of you. i mean really if your willing to take the extra step and make your decision about what needs to be done and you are capaable of doing it and doing it means that you will be doing something other than looking at something that needs to be done thinking i wish someone else was here to take care of me. you must not be a union guy i suppose that would make you a company man or woman.

i cant count the number of times union guys would stand and look at something that obvioulsy needs done and say i cant do that its not in my scope of work. or thats not my job, or thats beneath me. even the most menial tasks are out of reach for the union guy to do..

this workers opinon is most card holding people just want to draw a check. not go out of there way period.

sounds an awfull lot like lazy.

websters deffiniton lazy Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness.

10-29-2004, 04:25 PM	#41 (permalink)
rfra3645 Crazy Location: geff il	unions could be good for some things there many operators union maybe good need to trained what ur doing new equipment all the time ect... ibew electric maybe good need to know certain codes what line needs to go where.. I have seen many non union electricians that know what they are doing. teamsters truck driving not so sure who needs to be trained to sit and drive all day they don’t even help unload there cargo. Grocery clerks??? Not so sure at all paper or plastic???? Plumbers what a joke i have seen more union plumber stuff have to redone at a cost of 60- 100 $ and hour originally usually 20 - 40 $ to get fixed.. This is my example....i work in the construction field i sub out to a large company that builds a large national or will be national before to long video chain .. We ( my non union company) build a store start to finish in 5 weeks the store opens the 6th week. Our bid is around 85,000 labor.... when we go to city’s northern IL st Louis Kansas City ECT... the union tries to force us out.. The video chain doesn’t want pickets because they are a family organization that cares about there image.. Will hire them for around 300,000 and there fastest store they have done yet in my 4 state neighborhood was 22 weeks. Allot of times they call us for advice in what to do... yet they are making 18-35 dollars an hour for there highly valuable skillz. ( HA) my question is why do they hire them i have no idea... are they useful ?? I have found verry few that are.. __________________ this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons. the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation enhance its individual character and individuality and are in no way to be considered flaws or defects. if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

10-29-2004, 08:15 PM	#43 (permalink)
2sheds Crazy Location: dfw - texas	no. ..... __________________ Depression is just anger without enthusiasm. It’s having an empty beer bottle but no one to throw it at.

11-02-2004, 04:26 PM	#51 (permalink)
thingstodo A Storm Is Coming Location: The Great White North	I read half way through all this and then had to say something. At one time, unions were needed. Employees were exploited in a very bad way during the industrial revolution, which lasted a long time since it just migrated from the north auto factories to the southern textile industries. However, and there has to be a big however, that was then, this is now. Unions cause most companies that declare bankruptcy to do just that. Companies are unable to make the changes needed to compete in today's marketplace. Moreover, unions constantly focus on the employee rather than what the employees are there to do...produce a product or service. And then they go on strike for higher wages. Which leads to the price spiral of higher prices and then the need to strike again. Isn't it interesting that the majority of union employees are in fairly unskilled lines of work. I mean, if you can do something on an assembly line, how does that transfer to another field?? No skills., so what do you deserve for your hard work? Minimum wage...certainly not high wages and tons of benefits that aren't supported by the prices the company can charge the marketplace. Of course, there are unions for teachers, journalists and the like. But...if the employees were good at what they do rather than good at dealing with union rules, their business would prosper. Basically, things have changed, there is a global economy and many jobs are going/have gone overseas. Many airlines...Pan Am, Eastern to name a few, don't even exist anymore. You can chalk that up to unions. It's simple...if you don't like where you work and have a marketable skill, go to another company. You don't need a union to make your own choice. And if you don't have those skills, get them or be quiet. __________________ If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy. Last edited by thingstodo; 11-02-2004 at 04:30 PM..

11-03-2004, 06:32 AM	#53 (permalink)
thingstodo A Storm Is Coming Location: The Great White North	Smooth: I'm not going to load this up with stats since we are talking about concepts. I will make a point that we all need to feel a part of something bigger than ourselves and I don't believe that a union fits that criteria. 1. There is a big difference in the skillset of a butcher compared to that of someone that lugs tools. And while I also appreciate and value the person that is willing to lug tools around to build me a house, I don't consider it an extremely valuable skill as anyone with the physical ability could easily learn the job. 2. CEOs of many business are raping their companies. That doesn't change the responsibility of the mindset of the employees. Union employees are typically there to earn their paycheck and don't have a great deal of concern for how well the company does. They see things as only so many slices of the pie and they want their slice. 3. I lead an operation of over 500 people, connected to an even larger operation. We have no union. We treat people right, make sure they are fairly compensated and earn even more for above expectations performance, have the ability to learn and grow if they choose, I could go on. If you want to learn more about how that can work without unions, I suggest you read the Gallup organization book "First, Break All The Rules" and gain an understanding of the Q12 method. You might then read "Now, Discover YOur Strengths" and the "Follow This Path." 4. Take a look around. Most are eroding and have a fraction of the power they once had. 5. You make my point for me. The employee's business is the business they are working for. This reminds me of the many people that say "I'm going to work for myself because I want to be my own boss." How silly a notion, because the vast majority of these people end up starting a business that has customers...the most demanding and unforgiving of all bosses. 6. I'm not "Recommending that people up and leave their companies to go work somewhere else on a whim..." Any major change should be well thought out, especially BEFORE you go to work someplace. And then I refer you back to item #1. If your skillset is specific to one thing, like an assembly line, it won't transfer. As a result, you have two choices: 1. unemployment/another meanial job, 2. learn something new and make sure your investment will pay off with an ability to transfer the skillset someplace else. That butcher you mentioned previously can go to work for any grocery store or meat market out there. I appreciate the time you invested to read my thoughts and then discuss this topic. You present a viewpoint that is valued and shared by many. By the way, I have worked in my industry for over 26 years, 23 of those with the same company. Prior to that I was a licensed electrical contractor. I started in that field as a part-time laborer (working a second job because I was unable to earn enough from my primary job) lugging tools around. Due to that experience, I built my own house with my wife. I guess that tool lugging experience did transfer as I lugged my own around for the six months it took to build that house. Before that I worked for a brief time on a line that produced furniture. And while I was learning the electrical trade, I worked on various lines at a factory making IV solutions. So, I experienced enough to know that I didn't want to rely on something like a union to take care of me. Rather, I learned to take care of myself and feel a part of and contribute to the success of something bigger - the business I am a part of. As a result, I am able to directly impact the the success and sometimes failure of my organization beyond just showing up each day. By the way, I love your Lippman quote and especially the impact of First Amendment. I have been in the newspaper business for those 26-plus years Imentioned above (no, I'm not in the editorial department). __________________ If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy. Last edited by thingstodo; 11-03-2004 at 06:41 AM..

11-03-2004, 07:06 AM	#54 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	thingstodo... if you look at the current rate of housing developers that are being sued because of shoddy workmanship all over the country you'll find that not all skilled labor is equally skilled. day laborers are not always a replacement for someone who is a highly skilled laborer. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

10-31-2004, 06:36 PM	#46 (permalink)
william Psycho	Unions were good; now are bad. There was a time when unions were necessary (see 20's and 30's news). Now unions are destroying the very company they say they build. How many working-day people do you you see driving around in a 'vette? It's not about union leaders making a devil's deal for workers - it's about workers wanting an honest living (be honest - what vehicle does your union rep drive up in?). (What vehicle did you use?)

10-31-2004, 06:46 PM	#47 (permalink)
adam Insane	I'm confused. Do you think auto unions are the only unions?

11-02-2004, 09:14 AM	#49 (permalink)
StephenSa Psycho Location: Dallas, Texas	I support unions. Yes there have been abuses by some union organizations and there have also been abuses by employers. When any one side has too much power sombody down the line is going to pull some stupid crap out of their ass and shove down somebody's throat. I see it as check and balance sort of thing. As a single employee I have very little power when stacked up against a large corporation if they decide to add additional job duties, extra hours and no extra pay. Yes, it can happen. With a union the company has to think twice before arbitrarily making such decisions. Here are a couple of example. I worked as a morning news director at a medium market television station. Often, I repeat OFTEN, this station would ask employees to clock out but continue to work without pay. When they asked me to do this I refused and eventually found a new employer but not everyone has that luxury and I believe a union would have stopped that employers behavior. While working in Chicago for a television production facility management started adding significant responsibilities and hours to our jobs with no increase in pay. We had a couple of meetings with a union organizer. When managment got wind of our union interest suddenly the extra work went away and our pay scale was adjusted to a living wage. The mere threat of unionization made a positive change. Again, I can't speak for all union situations and in some cases they aren't necessary but I believe they still have a place in America and can be utilized in a positve way.

11-02-2004, 09:31 AM	#50 (permalink)
MikeyChalupa Squid Location: USS George Washington	Pro sports player's unions = BAD. -Mikey

11-03-2004, 08:53 AM	#55 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	thingstodo, thank you for an excellent and well-thought out response. In regards to #3: I'm not of the brand that claims private companies will never treat their employees right without organized labor breathing down their necks. I know of several companies (yours now included) that value their employees along with their contributions. I do, however, still think unions have a place in this society and haven't come to the conclusion that they do more harm than good. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

11-04-2004, 04:09 AM	#57 (permalink)
thingstodo A Storm Is Coming Location: The Great White North	Smooth.... I didn't mean to insinuate that unions do more harm that good, just that they don't do the good they once did. And I'm sure they serve as a deterent in some industries. Cynthetiq....I think that shoddy workmanship you mentioned has more to do with companies trying to turn a profit by slapping up houses on the cheap. It becomes all apprearance and no substance. You can compare the same behavior with companies like Enron. Profits, spin to the consumer and marketing to Wall Street is their priority, not their product. Kind of like the mindset of those poeple I mentioned earlier that are only interested in their slice of the pies rather than creating a limitless pie. Plus, someone that has learned a "trade" is different from those production line employees that only get skilled with the one or two things they do. Those carpenters, plumbers, etc. can take that specific skill other places. Hopefully it will be where management actually allows them to use rather than abuse their craft. __________________ If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy.

11-06-2004, 09:39 AM	#61 (permalink)
rfra3645 Crazy Location: geff il	well here i am again in a this thread that basicilly comes down to 2 kinds of people. 1. the kind that need and want to be told and directed evrey single move to make. do your job only do your job. never do a job that is someone elses job espcially if it will make the whole job go better faster and easier for whoever happens to be in charge of it even if that someone is you.. ie. union motivational speech. 2. the kind of people that need to get the job done the MOST EFICIANT best way it can be done. even if that means ( oh my god ) working a little bit more than is expected of you. i mean really if your willing to take the extra step and make your decision about what needs to be done and you are capaable of doing it and doing it means that you will be doing something other than looking at something that needs to be done thinking i wish someone else was here to take care of me. you must not be a union guy i suppose that would make you a company man or woman. i cant count the number of times union guys would stand and look at something that obvioulsy needs done and say i cant do that its not in my scope of work. or thats not my job, or thats beneath me. even the most menial tasks are out of reach for the union guy to do.. this workers opinon is most card holding people just want to draw a check. not go out of there way period. sounds an awfull lot like lazy. websters deffiniton lazy Resistant to work or exertion; disposed to idleness. __________________ this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons. the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation enhance its individual character and individuality and are in no way to be considered flaws or defects. if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks