Cadwiz

The reason I ask is, the only thing the unions around here are good for is keeping fat lazy bastards employed. I know that there was a time and place for a unionized workforce. But I think that in today's world with OSHA and all the other federal safety stuff, all the union does is make hard to get rid of people that need to go. I have three uncles in the unions here, so I kinda have an inside line on what goes on with them. I also think that most of the cost of union labor is passed on the consumer, whatever the product.

I am not union "bashing". I just want to know what are they good for in this day and age? Other than keeping someone from getting fired, because the boss just doesn't like them.

What are your thoughts?

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Mephisto2

Of course unions are a good thing.

They offer protection to employees from being exploited, they fight for workers' rights (like equal pay for men and women), they offer assistance programs for their members... the list goes on and on.

Rampant, unchecked union power is not always good, but proposing unions be abolished is just silly.

Mr Mephisto

maleficent

The Equal Pay Act of 1963 gives me equal pay for equal work, not a union.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Civil Rights Act of 1991 prevents discrimination in the workplace based on race, color, sex, religion, or national origin, Not a union.

The Age Discrimination Act of 1967 protects agaisnt discrimination because of age for people over age 40, not a union.

The ADA of 1990 prevents discrimination of qualified individuals with disabilities provided they can perform the essential functions of the job, Not a union.

There was a time and a place for unions, back in in the day of sweat shops and horrendous working condition, while in some cases those conditions might exist, for the most part it's long gone. The laws on teh books protect workers, not the unions.

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MSD

Teachers' unions are what's destroying our public school system in the US. Keeping sub-par teachers employed is not the same as protecting them from abuse. Lazy, unqualified slobs are protected by unions. These days, with whistleblower laws, OSHA, and federal laws in place to protect our workers, we don't need unions like we used to. In some cases I've seen, they don't seem to have strayed far from their Mafia roots.

greytone

Like all things......it depends.

There is no doubt that unions were critical for much of the recent 100+ years. However there are a number of recent examples of unions working more for the power of those in charge of the union, rather than their members. I am not advocating getting rid of unions, but their power should not be unchecked. Here are few examples of unions putting their own interests ahead of that of their members.

I have a close friend who works as a television reporter. Several years ago he was working in a closed shop state under a contract with his station. His contract ran out and at the time he was working the morning news. He hated it because he is clearly not a morning person and getting up at 2am was not good. He had not yet found another job and he wanted to continue to work until he found something in another market. It is a tough field and there are few openings. He and his employer agreed to work under the conditions of the expired contract until one or the other decided to end things. (That is the condition most of us find ourselves by default.) The station was actively looking for someone who had a pulse before 8 am and Scott was looking for work elsewhere. Both were happy with the arrangement and the union was not harmed because they would just replace my friend with the new hire when they were identified. After several months the union cought wind of this. They wrote a letter to the station without contacting my friend. They claimed that he could no longer work without a contract and he was fired that day. It took him months to find another job on the opposite coast.

Several years ago the UPS workers went on strike as a result of a power grab in the AFL-CIO. I know that there are those who will disagree with that, but the facts seem to support the claim. At the time UPS was employee owned. Understand that. The employees went on strike against themselves! As a result, they permanently lost market share. Less than two years later they made a killing when UPS went public, never knowing how much more their stock would have been worth with their market share intact and no recent history of labor disputes.

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JaySpencer

I think that as a transition entity from a time where the industrial barons took advantage of unprotected workers withoug mercy, that unions are a good thing or should I say were a good thing. In today's day and age I think that there are often instances where union "protections" are questionable at best. I say this from the perspective of a wife and father in law being in unions.

aerozeppelin

I think unions in principle are fine, but some of the legal protections they enjoy are not.

I personally think that if unions can require a worker to join in order to work somewhere (and they can), then employers should be able to ban employees from being union members if they want employment.

I also think that a lot of the trouble with unions happens when the government intervenes in strikes in nonessential industries - as with the case in San Francisco with the hotel strike. Who is the mayor to threaten that the city will provide "less than four star service" to the hotel's if they dont' bow to his wishes?

Overall, unions are fine so long as the government affords them no special protections at all and doesn't try to take their side in disputes, as happens all too often.

Suave

Depends who you are. If you are a unionized worker, unions are a good thing. If you are excluded from the union, it's a bad thing. If you're an employer, unions are also a bad thing.

ARTelevision

Unions had their historical moment. That moment is now long past.

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Mephisto2

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of workers around the world that would be exploited without them.

And with reference to the (US) Acts that Maleficent mentions, do you really believe they would have existed without Unions fighting for workers' rights?

As I said, and as I maintain, they are a good thing.

It all comes down to personal opinion really.


Mr Mephisto

arch13

I worked on a construction project for a week as a scab worker replacing striking union guys. This project was a large "dig" in a northeast US state.
At the end of the day, I went back to my car and found someone had placed welded balls of nails under my tires hopping I'd back up over them.

I come from a "right to work" state (Florida) and believe in the right to work system. I'm employed at my own will and can leave at anytime if not under salary contract. Likewise the company has the right to get rid of me if they feel my services are no longer needed without explanation. I see no problem in this.

I worked at a book store in RI for a while. We had a kid in the cafe who was great with customers but couldn't show up on time. ever. It took me 4 months to fire him, including a written explanation for his termination, have several meeting with him and mandatory chances to change his behaviour, and I was prohibited from making a negative reference to his next employer. All ridiculus in my opinion.

Unions are better replaced by well written laws outlining unacceptable behaviour on both the part of the employer and employee.

Further, the idea of compulsiary union membership is offensive.

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slimpi66y

my ancestors blood and the constitution gave me my rights, not the union

MSD

There's the point I forgot to make.

ngdawg

I worked for unionized places and both times joining was mandatory. They served me no purpose whatsoever. You are required to pay dues to these organizations, but I truly didn't see what was done in return, besides getting monthly periodicals in the mail.
The teacher's union in NJ, the NJEA, which I belonged to for 3 years, actually destroyed my job. I was a lay assistant teacher and they lobbied and won legislation that requires all assistant teachers to have some sort of degree or certification in that field-I didn't. First, I was reassigned to 'building aide' and replaced by teachers who were making twice as much or more than I was. Many complained that, after teaching for up to 20 years, they had been relegated to second banana in unfamiliar courses, while I was reduced to walking hallways all day. The teachers I had worked with wanted me back-but, thanks to the union, that wasn't possible.
I agree with Art, their time of any usefulness is long past. Laws are in place to avoid any 'exploitation' and it seems to me that the money taken out of one's pay every week to fund the lifestyles of union bosses would better be used in the hands of the very workers they say they represent, but in fact, exploit for their own personal and political gains

Mephisto2

Right.

I guess it was stupid trying to be the lone voice in a thread, on a board in the US, supporting unions.

I'm a "white collar" worker, but I support unions. Bite me.


Mr Mephisto

ngdawg

Now, don't get your knickers in a twist-this is the US. Laws, situations, etc are different. Unfortunately, unions became too big for their own good, starting believing their own hype and are now caving in on themselves. Corruption is being exposed and people are not following blindly as a result.
This is not indicative of the world at large, necessarily, it's just how things are going here.

spectre

Speaking of teachers' unions, right now, the teachers at the college I attend, and the rest of the city colleges, have been on strike for two weeks now. They've already said that we will have to make up this time during what should be the break at the end of the semester. And, if it goes on much longer, we'll have to make it up going into next semester. From what I've heard, the administration at the schools has compromised on every issue the union brings up, but the union waits until the next meeting to bring up another issue. And it's getting ridiculous.

I don't have a problem with most unions, but this is really annoying.

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Drider_it

from a truck drivers POI (in this case my dads) i would have to say that unions at the docks are asshats.. they only do so much a day given by union rules then the rest the day they do nothing.. thier work load was reached.. the truck driver sits there waiting for the next shift to come or the next day.. burn them

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It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

Mephisto2

First of all I didn't get my "knickers in a twist" as you so prosaically put it.

Secondly, I thought "this" was an international board, and not the US.

Mr Mephisto

The Magic

Do they do some positive? Of course.

Do they do some wrongs? A lot, I'd have to say.

My friend was forced to join his union. He couldn't work there unless he joined. They took out $100 of his paycheck every month. They protected many of the lazy workers and made it hard to fire horrible people who were late, lazy, and just didn't preform their job well.

On top of that, his union supports a presidental candidate (Kerry). The common worker didn't have a say in this decision. My friend is for Bush, but some of his pay check was forcibly taken and, in the end, goes to a presidental candidate he doesn't support.

Drider_it

and yet another reason.. in our town.. cps a rubber mold factory that makes the drain trays for trane air conditioners, had a union issue..

they went three months stalling on a voite for union or not.. during this time cars, personal effect, and company properties got damaged or destroyed by the asshats that worked there.. which after the legal invistigation .. it was brought to light that the union reps talked several into doing this which instigated the whole mess.. ended up both sides doing this..

on a side not just across the parking lot is a sherrif substation.. they never saw anything.. the union was voted out with the agreement that in two years they could try again.

my town.. union is bad.

__________________
It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

ngdawg

"This" is....I'm referring to the union situation here

almostaugust

Unionism is certainly a good thing. Its protecting the rights of the workers. Sadly, in america it looks as though unionism is gonna collapse completely, which is ironic seeing as the federal minimum wage is like $5 dollars something, and conditions for unskilled and low income workers are at a low. Union-busting is an actual business in the US, so i reckon it is on the wane. What has been bad for unions is individuals using it as a ladder to politics and thier private interests. Too much corruption.
The situation in Australia is looking grim. Howard now controls the senate, the first thing on his agenda (which has been previously blocked 41 times) is The Fair Dismissal Bill. Workers can now expect less job security and possibly lower wages.

arch13

Fair point.
To help us better understand why you feel the way you do, perhaps you could explain the work situation where you are (Oz right?)
Are unions large there?
Have union leaders been found to be corrupt in major scandles that affected the nation or a region?
Is union membership compulsiary?

Also, for those who are guilty of often being US-centric with our attention, can you explain this in greater detail?

NgDawg: Last time I checked this was an international board, and all topics require the viewpoints of many nations for equal discusion without favoring the interests of on over another.

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tropple

If the unions were more in the form of a craftsguild, they would be of great benefit to everyone. However, as they are in the US, they act as extortion organizations, I think they need a radical reformation.

But so does the american system of goverment. So I guess it doesn't matter. We're all going to hell in a handbasket anyway.

I guess maybe my meds are off today.

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Grace, Too

I'm a teacher and a Billy Bragg fan.

I used to be a part of the The Ontario Teachers Union which is the second strongest union in Canada. Yeah I paid out my ass for it, but it did some good for me. As a teacher I have one of the best pension plans too.

I know people get pissed off when we strike for higher wages and stuff. But you know what? I think teaching is important, and if I can get more money to teach, I'll strike for it.

"There is power in a union"

Cadwiz

It would seem that most of our US members have more or less the same views on unions that I do. I think arch13 has some good questions for anyone outside the US. Obviously the labor laws could be different from the laws here, making the unions a more favorable entity. I intentionally didn't limit this to US unions for this very reason.

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Semper Fi

warrrreagl

???!

Teacher's unions are almost non-existent in the Deep South, yet our educational system lags WAY behind everybody else's. Can't blame that on the unions. If Southerners must look beyond unions as the cause for our educational bankruptcy, then maybe the rest of the nation should be prepared to do so, also.

And for the record, I taught public school for 12 years in Alabama and Iowa and didn't belong to any unions or teacher's organizations for a single minute of those 12 years. It was not a problem in Alabama, because almost no one belonged to a union there. But it was kind of uncomfortable in Iowa, where the membership situation was reversed.

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ARTelevision

It's true that there are a few areas, notably some southern states, where teachers' unions do not have the same pernicious anti-educational stranglehold they have on the rest of the nation.

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superiorrain

I think unions now are even more important than they have ever been. Businesses like to cut cost, the best way to do that is to look to employees. Whether a business sacks people so they can save some money or cut down on health and safety issues to avoid that expense is all the same. The power of the union is to protect its members and even non members rights and lives.

There membership however is receeding, at least here in the UK, but i guess that mainly to us not having so many big industries where the low paid worker have to be protected (rich people go to court and sue businesses, poor people have to make do). Plus the government brings out laws that should project people anyway. At least you would hope so as the current Labour Government here (Tony Blair and co) were founded from Union roots.

I say power to the unions, but not too much.

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Zeraph

They can be good and bad. Everything in moderation I always say. The real question is, should everyone be alloud to union? Particularly Im thinking of cops. And do they have a right to strike?

sixate

Unions are evil!!!!!! I hate my union more than anything. All my union does is protect all the lazy fucks who do nothing except sleep at work. And since I'm not a lazy fucking pile of shit all my union does is steal $45 a month from me. My union drives up an employees wage while decreasing the amount of work we have to do. Now, anyone with more than three braincells can tell that's bad for business. Fuck man, it's no wonder jobs are leaving America. It's fucking useless unions making difficult for business owners to make $$. It's just easier to close shop and reopen in another country... That's how bad unions have made it, and I don't blame owners of companies for doing it. It would be one thing if the union drove up wages and made sure the employee did more work, but it doesn't work like that. Less work for more money is just bad business. It isn't Bush that drives companies out of the US. It's the fucking lazy ass workforce who expect to do nothing for their paychecks that makes it make sense for a company to relocate. It's that fucking simple. And because my useless union supports Kerry.... I'll be voting for Bush baby!

And I don't want to hear some dumb shit like: Well if you hate your job/union so bad get another job.

I make enough money that it makes sense for me to stay where I'm at, but I'm gonna be relocating to the Cleveland are after the first of the year, and I'll get another job then. BTW, there's no way in hell I'll ever work another union job in my life.

My girlfriend, who is a school teacher, hates unions just as much as me. She also agrees that unions are ruining schools, but she loves what she does so she deals with it.

adam

You are not alone. Many important innovations (e.g., the five-day work week) came about because of unions. I will say that unions work better in fields where the productivity differences between workers are small.

absorbentishe

I'm in a huge union town, and from what I hear... (I'm white collar) they do a lot of good. All the unions do a lot of charity work. But as for the bad, the UAW that is at Jeep, have made it so when the workers are laid off, they still get 95% of their pay, no matter how long they are off. There are many cases were an employee is caught with drugs at work, he/she is slapped on the wrist, told to attend a drug rehab paid for by Jeep, then brought back to work after rehab.

That is an extreme circumstance, but true. Unions were good in the US back in the day, but with all the legislature, they really aren't needed. Without the unions, this legislature would not have happened.

Cynthetiq

Unions aren't just an american phenomenon.

There's currently a teacher's union strike in Iceland for the past 1 month.

I personally don't like unions for my own benefits. I don't need someone negotiating my own futures away.

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lurkette

I agree with whoever said "it depends." I don't think the time for unions has passed, certainly not in less industrialized countries where Western corporations are moving in to exploit lax labor laws. And with a more competitive employment situation in many Western countries, and companies trying to cut costs wherever possible, I think unions are vital for protecting the rights of employees Are they prone to abuse? Absolutely. But that's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. As with all things, the pendulum has swung to the point where some unions are too powerful for their own good. Competition will squeeze them to the point where they lose some power, and are no longer able to abuse their position. I'm in favor of enlightened reform, not abolition, of unions.

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Nazggul

Ying and Yang. Wax and Wain. There is the good and there is the bad. Any organized group large enough to impact policy will have both positive and negative effect. Once the clout of the organization becomes apparent it will be used by those willing to exploit its power. When this becomes apparent, their power is placed in check by other forces. And so it continues.

Unions were essential to the development of our country. They improved peoples quality of life immensly. These same checks are not longer necessary in most industries, but in some they are. It makes for great discussion.


EDIT: I say "our country" meaning "my country," the US. Sorry I wasn't specific.

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billege

No, they are not.
I think most people are idiots. Because they have the same job, or job catagory I do, does not change that fact.

I do not need idiots making choices that affect my employment. I'll make or break that on my own, thank you.

Unions cater to the lowest common denominator. They set the minimum acceptable standard, and lower the quality of work to it. The idea is dirty, to me.

When a minimum standard is set, there is no reason to excel. The person who meets the standard, gets paid as much as the one who strives to exceed it. So, why try and exceed it?

I have no interest in a union philosophy.

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Drider_it

now other unions .. i dont know they could be ok.. yet time and time again i have read seen and heard that all they do is milk the workers with promises of changes for the better and then tell them to strike.

yet there are good that they do.

__________________
It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

Daval

My viewpoints pertain to the Canadian/American marketplace only.

I agree largely with what Sixate has said. Unions had their uses, and in some places they still do - but the pendulum has swung from one extreme to another. Unions are allowing ridiculous practices and lazy workforces to thrive at the cost of the company. And for a smaller company this can be death.

As an example. I sell industrial machinery to manufacturing companies - when the equipment is delivered I will go in and train the people how to use the equipment and maybe do some tweaks on the equipment to work flawlessly in the factory - usually it takes me 2 - 3 hours to do this in a normal business (non-union).

However, the times that I have had to go to a union facility I am not allowed to lay a finger on my own equipment, I cannot open a control panel door to push a button inside (I need an electrician to lockout the control panel, a member of a safety committe to observe, and another controls electrician to push the button), If I need to tighten a screw, or align a spray nozzle I need again an electrician to lockout the machine, again the safety comitte rep to observe and a freaking millright to turn a nozzle by 5 degrees that I can do with my bare hands in 3 seconds. Don't get me started on what I'd need to tension a motor drive chain or something (all done with a simple wrench!)

These various people who I need are never available at the same time, they will be summoned by the manager in the cell I am working and it could take them and hour or two to show up - then they have to take their breaks etc.

I've had a 2 to 3 hour job take 2 to 3 days in a union shop do to these stupid inefficiencies.

I think in some situations Unions can be beneficial when implemented properly. But at least in the automotive industry I think they are a massive waste and should either be culled, or massively restructured to work WITH the employer to achieve a win/win situation.

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