In God We Trust - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Charlatan · 05-14-2003, 08:11 AM

I have always wondered what this term actually means to most Americans.

It is on your money, it is on your president's lips... God Bless America was practically a mantra in post 9/11.

Here in Canada, our leaders would never dream of speaking about their religious lives in a public forum (when they do they aren't likely to stay popular - ie Reform ex-leader Stockwell Day). In the USA is almost seems that being a Christian is a prerequisite to taking the position and once in power they must display their religion on their sleeve.

I suppose it could be argued that there is a large percentage of the population base that is Christian and therefore it is important to appeal to them.

So I ask:

1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian).
2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state?

spectre · 05-14-2003, 08:21 AM

It's nothing new. Most countries have done it at some point. The idea is, "if God is on our side, who will stand against us?" It's a good way to bring even quasi-religious people together and make them believe that the country is strong and shouldn't fear because a higher power is backing them. Look at almost any country in history, the leaders will always say that their god is somehow cheering them on rather than some other country. It keeps the population under control by having them questioning authority less because they aren't as afraid of outside attacks.

Cynthetiq · 05-14-2003, 08:23 AM

as a baptized nonpracticing catholic.. it means nothing but belief in a higher being of sorts. As far as it being a mdeling of church and state, I don't see it nor do I feel it. It onlly has as much power as I allow it to have, positive or negative.

Simple_Min · 05-14-2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlatan

So I ask:
1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian).
2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state?

I do not mind it, but I feel bad for my fellow Americans who either (1) believe in no supreme being, and (2) who believe in multiple/many supreme beings.

By leaving "in god we trust" off the money it does not imply "in god we do not trust" and thus it would not alienate those who do believe in god.
But by having "in god we trust" immediately those who do not share the singularity of god are alienated and feel opressed.

I agree with Canadian (and most European nations) who have an obvious understanding of leaving religion where it belongs: in people's personal lives.

Ofcourse it's just money, and I wouldn't be surprised if 95% of our money has trace amounts of cocane or other drugs on it.

World's King · 05-14-2003, 10:45 AM

The supposed seperation of church and state gone right out the fucking window.

Fucking hypocrites.

Charlatan · 05-14-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spectre
It's nothing new. Most countries have done it at some point. The idea is, "if God is on our side, who will stand against us?" It's a good way to bring even quasi-religious people together and make them believe that the country is strong and shouldn't fear because a higher power is backing them. Look at almost any country in history, the leaders will always say that their god is somehow cheering them on rather than some other country. It keeps the population under control by having them questioning authority less because they aren't as afraid of outside attacks.

Spectre: I get that. The symbolism is powerful. However, in this day and age, given the decline in the actual belief in God, how effective is this...

The (over)use of "God Bless America" post 9/11 felt odd to me (a foreigner looking in). It seemed ironic given the equally fervent belief in Allah (or God) by the extremists that did the deed. A kind of, "God isn't on your side he's on ours..."

Halx · 05-14-2003, 10:51 AM

"In God We Trust"

speak for yourself
In Hal *I* Trust

ARTelevision · 05-14-2003, 11:36 AM

It doesn't mean a thing to me.

I think the word "god" stands for something a lot of other people take an interest in.

sixate · 05-14-2003, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charlatan
1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian).
2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state?

1. That means absolutely nothing to me. I ignore it. I don't need to believe in an invisible man in the sky to get me through my day.

2. Again, religion is non existant in my life and I can easily ignore all of that bullshit.

apetaster · 05-14-2003, 02:06 PM

I am a non-believer and I frankly could care less. It is a bromide that has been diluted in meaning so much it has about as much meaning to me as someone saying 'take care.'

Start putting up crosses or pentagrams in town halls and that's where I'd get a bit peeved.

I did find it curious too though when Billy Graham (Jr?) did the Jeebus prayer at the last inauguration.

maximusveritas · 05-14-2003, 03:03 PM

I really don't care about the "In God We Trust". It's not a big deal and most Americans probably don't even know its there.

The rhetoric of our leaders, however, particularly at the national level, does bother me considerably.

Although it probably started with Jimmy Carter, he was very careful to seperate his religious beliefs from his duty as President. When giving speeches, he would hardly ever mention God.

Today, in contrast, we have people like Senator Lieberman and President Bush who often make their religious beliefs the focus of their speeches and policies. They actively work to tear down the wall between church and state here at home. And they actively try to manifest their fundamentalist beliefs abroad. They are not merely religious people, they are religious extremists and are as harmful to the well-being of this country as any terrorist.

WhoaitsZ · 05-14-2003, 05:13 PM

So I ask:
1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian).

Well, I am a Christian, but I do not (and will not) push my views on anyone. I also kind of hate hearing these phrases due to it being 'the thing' to say. It's like the "hero" bullshit after 9-11. Sure, we had several heros (ie, the guys who took down the terrorist on the plane), but if you were joe blow asking for a nickel on the corner of TWT, you are a 'hero'. to use a term often demeans it and makes it loose it's effect..

personally, against judgement of friends and peers (besides one sweet blonde friend) I say God bless Iraq. the citizens need help.. bad.

2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state?

No. cuz if you arn't Christian (namely Baptist or Catholic) then your god will be beat up by our god is the basic mental power held by my fellow US citizens, especially the "Christians".

it fucking disgusts me and it makes me want to say "they are not my people". but I do follow Christ......

hmm. we need to create me a religious name!

Z, the Christ loving hippy.

l_o_c · 05-14-2003, 05:30 PM

1. It's sort of a fuck you to me. It's a, "I'm part of this club (Christians) and this is who I'm watching out for.While I may tolerate you being an atheist, I certainly don't appreciate people like you." It certainly doesn't feel inclusive to me.

2. It's a by-product. I don't think saying God Bless America inheriently makes state and country intermingled, but the fact that it is said is a result of Christianity and state being mingled.

I view the Republican party as the Christian Party. They aren't really for smaller government. They support prohibition and all sorts of laws legislating morals. They are for "old-fashioned values" and "the past history of Christianity in this country." Often, they step very closely on the line between theocracy and democratic republic. Pat Robertson (who ran on the Republican ticket, and is now an outspoken Republican) basically has all but used the word theocracy. This is from the IMDB.

Quote:

Claimed that the portion of the U.S. Constitution that pertains to the separation of church and state was not in the original Constitution and was forged onto it by a Communist spy sent to Washington, DC, by the Russians in the late 1920s. According to Robertson, the original framers of the Constitution were told by God that the United States was to be governed by a coalition of ministers, businessmen and property owners, and that the words "democracy" and "republic" are nowhere to be found in the original U.S. Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. [1996]

I view the Democrats as the slightly more flexible, but still Christian Party. You occasionally get legislation based on Christian morals from this side of the aisle (like Al and Tipper's many crusades against art and entertainment). One only needs to read some of the PMRC hearings to understand that Christianity as a litmus test is still very alive.

Either way, simply stopping them from saying In God We Trust (or saying the admended Pledge) isn't going to change the basic outlook of the government.

guthmund · 05-14-2003, 07:41 PM

In God we Trust and such means nothing to me.
It's just another catchphrase of the month like "Let's Roll" and "Bling Bling." and almost as ridiculous.

Our nation has never had true seperation of church and state and I don't think it ever will and any argument to fully segregate the two is folly. While it's not as fanatical a melding as other religious states, church and state have melded none the less.

weirdo12345 · 05-14-2003, 09:18 PM

That thing about pat robertson sounds like a lie. I do not think he said that.

Quote:

1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian).
2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state?

1. It means that the constitution is not being enforced. In god we trust is a violation of the establishment clause of the first admendment and needs to be taken off the money immediaty. George Bush needs to quit saying God bless America in his speeches, and public schools need to quit having their kids sing"God Bless America"

2. Yes it does. WHen ever the church and the state come together, good things never happen. We need to "build a wall of seperation" between the church and the state.

l_o_c · 05-14-2003, 11:20 PM

Quote:

That thing about pat robertson sounds like a lie. I do not think he said that.

It does sound far fetched. I read it at the IMDB, so I posted it. They have been known to be wrong, though. If it's not true, it's at least funny, and better explains some of his positions.

But also, let's not forget he for sure blamed 9/11 on gays, feminists, and the ACLU. That's pretty far fetched too.

Charlatan · 05-15-2003, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by guthmund
In God we Trust and such means nothing to me.
It's just another catchphrase of the month like "Let's Roll" and "Bling Bling." and almost as ridiculous.

Our nation has never had true seperation of church and state and I don't think it ever will and any argument to fully segregate the two is folly. While it's not as fanatical a melding as other religious states, church and state have melded none the less.

I don't think it is comparable to "bling bling" and "Let's Roll", although I see what you are getting at. God is much deeper than any popular catchphrase.

An interesting addition to all of this is that I was listening to a radio show on CBC Radio One last night and it featured a guy who was looking at the myth that Canadians and American's are becoming more alike. One of the statistics showed that over the past (I think) 30 years there has been a decline in those who say they are Religious in Canada while the exact opposite is true in the US. At the beginning of the period the US and Canada were about the same percentage.

Perhaps this is why I, as a Canadian, feel the disconnect when I see the precense of God in the US political sphere.

Unknown Poster · 05-15-2003, 05:33 AM

I am non-religious(agnostic?), but "In God We Trust" doesn't bother me in the slightest.

As far as Bush should say "God Bless America" in his speeches goes, he is not violating the establishment clause. The first amendment says,

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....".

Bush saying "God Bless America" does neither.

seretogis · 05-15-2003, 05:38 AM

I am an atheist and I have no problem with "in god we trust", "god bless america", or "one nation under god." It's nothing but morale-boosting rhetoric, and it in no way harms anyone to have it on our currency or in our schools. Compare our religious freedoms with that of Iraq under Saddam Hussein and perhaps you will see how ridiculous the "wipe god off of everything!" argument is.

Those who claim to be atheists, and have a serious problem with hearing or reading the word "God" need to do a couple of things. First, learn to take yourself less seriously, because what you are comfortable with is not the number one priority for the nation. Second, re-evaluate your choice of theology because if your beliefs (or anti-beliefs) are so fragile that you cannot be presented with an "opposing" viewpoint, then perhaps atheism is not for you.

vermin · 05-15-2003, 05:46 AM

1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian).

I am a christian but I'll answer anyway. In God We Trust is a statement of the kind of beliefs the founders of this country held. Take it off the money, leave it on, I don't care either way. God Bless America is a short prayer full of good intentions. When it's twisted into a catch phrase it becomes a mockery.

2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state?

No. The constitution says there should be no official state religion. Just mentioning God in a speech doesn't specify what these guys consider gods or which god they're talking about or imply that to be a good american you must follow their god. It reduces 'god' to catch phrase status. This, too, shall pass.

seretogis · 05-15-2003, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vermin
The constitution says there should be no official state religion. Just mentioning God in a speech doesn't specify what these guys consider gods or which god they're talking about or imply that to be a good american you must follow their god.

Also, regardless of how open that our past/current/future presidents are about their religion, it in no way establishes it as an official state religion. Even if Bush said "May Jesus Christ Bless America" on national television, it wouldn't suddenly establish Christianity as the official religion. So, please, lighten up.

Reese · 05-15-2003, 06:24 AM

Ever notice that People against the united states(i mean REALLY hate the united states) has a different religions than US? I wonder if we changed the Slogan to In Mohammad we trust, or in Budha we trust. Would these people come to like us? Well then I guess the christians would get all pissed off, thats far worse than muslims and Budhist combined..

*Cybermike looks around to see how many people he pissed off*

maximusveritas · 05-15-2003, 07:10 AM

I think some of you are missing the point on the rhetoric coming for our political representatives. Do you really think its harmless when President Bush refers to the war on terror as a "crusade"? Even when the rhetoric itself is not harmful, it is indicative of the role that religion has on that politician's policies.

This article from the CS Monitor focuses on the role of religion in shaping Bush's foreign policy, but it can also be applied to his domestic policy:New scrutiny of role of religion in Bush's policies

seretogis · 05-15-2003, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by maximusveritas
I think some of you are missing the point on the rhetoric coming for our political representatives. Do you really think its harmless when President Bush refers to the war on terror as a "crusade"? Even when the rhetoric itself is not harmful, it is indicative of the role that religion has on that politician's policies.

The "crusade" slip-up is widely accepted as being just that -- a misuse of the word. Nothing more. It's been said over and over again that the religion of the people of Iraq is not under attack, the "regime" is. In fact, most Iraqis are more free to practice their religion now than they were under Hussein's rule. If Bush were truly a Christian zealot that intended to convert the world to Christianity, he could have made steps to do so.

Instead, he has promoted religion domestically -- not necessarily only Christianity, but religion in general -- which I don't see as a bad thing. Obviously Americans, especially our children, are sufferring from a serious lack of morals whether due to incompetant parenting, lack of religion, the media, or all of those factors and others. I respect his attempt to guide the "lost sheep" sotospeak back to some sort of established moral system, even if it is a religion that I dislike.

maximusveritas · 05-15-2003, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
The "crusade" slip-up is widely accepted as being just that -- a misuse of the word. Nothing more. It's been said over and over again that the religion of the people of Iraq is not under attack, the "regime" is. In fact, most Iraqis are more free to practice their religion now than they were under Hussein's rule. If Bush were truly a Christian zealot that intended to convert the world to Christianity, he could have made steps to do so.

I think the "crusade" slip-up was just that - a slip-up that revealed what was really going on inside the President's head.
I don't want to debate the war with Iraq, but religion and its ties to Israel surely played a major role in the Bush administration's decision.
And Bush has taken steps to convert the world to Christianity. He's tried to tie money in his AIDS proposal to religious groups that preach abstinence and finding God. Right now, Franklin Graham, the man who called Islam "an evil and wicked religion", is waiting for the White House to give him the greenlight to send his missionaries into Iraq to "help" the poor, evil Iraqis.

Charlatan · 09-22-2005, 09:28 AM

I'd like to BUMP this thread.

It was started back in 2003 and I am curious to see if the general consensus is the same now as it was back then:

So I ask, again:

1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian).
2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state?

ElvenDestiny · 09-22-2005, 09:42 AM

Im posting this to the OP's statement and haven’t yet read anything anyone responded with, so with that stated here goes.

In god we trusts, and god bless America, it has been around since I was born and longer, it has been served to me on a golden platter with the most tastiest of foods, it is waved under my noise like the sweatiest smelling treat, and yet it is completely and utterly annoying and insulting to me. Though I know its not stated "what god" we trust, or under what god, there still remains to be religions such as mine that does not call their deity types god, and find it insulting to do so. For the most part I ignore it and pretend it doesn’t exist, but it still stands to be the one of the major things about America that I could do without.

Charlatan · 09-22-2005, 09:49 AM

I think the capitalization on the word God makes it pretty clear that we are talking about the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God.

Other deities are just gods.

Daoust · 09-22-2005, 10:03 AM

My question is this: is it REALLY that offensive? Assuming we are talking about the Judeo-Christian God, and you are an atheist, or a buddhist, or a gnostic or whatever else...

The United States was founded by Christians. It's foundation was built upon by Christian men with Christian beliefs and ideals. These men put their faith and trust in God, and they sought His wisdom and direction as the United States was born and began to grow.

Now there is today in the USA a large contingent of people who don't trust in God. But I think that if you asked the majority of Americans, regardless of their faith preference, you would get a resounding response in favour of keeping the "In God We Trust" motto in place. It's historical and spiritual in significance.

Americans on the TFP, I ask you... are you truly and deeply offended by the phrase "In God We Trust" ? Are you offended to the point where you think that because of your being annoyed, the United States should forever remove this motto and replace it with something far less significant, or historically relevant? Is it fair to remove it, keeping in mind the rich tradition and culture of Christianity in the United States past and present???

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-22-2005, 10:24 AM

To me, "In God We Trust" is just an embracement of America's freedom of religion. We aren't communists, we shouldn't have to worry about hiding religion just to avoid offending some people. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to some people.

bad jane · 09-22-2005, 10:24 AM

i'm not christian and i'm with those who could care less. to be honest, i consider those statements meaningless. i rank it right up there with all the state mottos and other catchy phrases like "land of the free and home of the brave."

i suppose if "we" trust in god, i'm not a part of the crowd. but really, who cares? it spends the same for us non-believers as it does for the devout.

if we were going to change anything about our money, i suggest the color. green? come on, let's brighten it up with a nice shade of pink

as for bush and his fun statements, well, let's just say it is one more thing we disagree on.

Charlatan · 09-22-2005, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Spacemonkey

To me, "In God We Trust" is just an embracement of America's freedom of religion. We aren't communists, we shouldn't have to worry about hiding religion just to avoid offending some people. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to some people.

I don't follow you here. There is a difference between state sponsored religion and citizens being free to practice religion.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 09-22-2005, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I don't follow you here. There is a difference between state sponsored religion and citizens being free to practice religion.

Yes, and "In God We Trust" I don't think is meant to single out any one religion, rather it is just meant to embrace the people's freedom of religion. I shouldn't have posted "America's freedom of religion" but rather the American people's freedom of religion. I guess that's what confused you.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-22-2005, 11:01 AM

Daoust hit the nail on the head. The Founding Fathers (most) were very religious, most were Chrisitians, some were Deist's. Documents such as the Declaration of Independence shows this, the document affirms that our rights are inherent and endowed by the God of Nature and creator of man.

The President praying at his innaguration(sp), the Senate opening/concluding business with prayer, The Supreme Court saying "God save the United States and this Honourable courts", In God We Trust on money, are not infringements on this phantom rule of law known as "Separation of Church and State", which has no basis/or place in the constitution.

Old Benny Franklin said it best for me:

Quote:

"In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle have observed frequent instances of superintending Providence in our favor. . . . And have we now forgotten this powerful Friend? Or, do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his Aid?

We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without his concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel; we shall be divided by our little, partial local interests; our projects will be confounded; and we shall become a reproach and a byword to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing government by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war, or conquest.

I therefore beg to move that, henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessing on our deliberation be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business."

ElvenDestiny · 09-22-2005, 11:04 AM

Well the In god we trust like I said I can over look simply because im used to the insulting mannerism of such things, but things like "under god" in our song was added much later, in fact it wasn’t added until after WW2, and in many peoples opinions it was adding simply to annoy and insult Atheists and non-christians. And do not pretend that the Christians were the ONLY ones who helped make our country what it is today. They just happened to be the majority and history tells enough of that sad story.

Just because ‘Christians’ as you say are the claimed founder of the United States doesn’t matter to me simply because those Christians who did so were nothing more than Tyrants and money hungry heathens. In fact they founded the United States through shedding the blood of the natives who lived here.

We as the United States may not be communists but we are truly nothing more than Tyrants.

Of course that is in my own opinion

Charlatan · 09-22-2005, 11:36 AM

Mojo... I get that the founders we largely men of God and that with that comes certain trappings.

Should this change to reflect the increasingly secular, or better yet, polytheistic America? Or is America unchanging?

I find it facinating that your politicians must wear their religion on their sleeve, while other nations need not.

pig · 09-22-2005, 11:52 AM

Seeing as "In God We Trust" was added to our money during the Red Scare, I think it's a funny little piece of American history. It has exactly nothing, nada, zilch to do with our nation's founding. I always find that amusing. I would prefer it wasn't there, as I think that explicitly mentioning religious beliefs on currency is unnecessary at best. I read the word "We" and I have to ask, who is "we?" It's not the American people as a whole, because "we" don't all believe in "God" or a "god." I think there are bigger issues, but I do find the whole thing annoying. To me, it's a breach of Church and State, but not a huge one and I always get a laugh out of it, so what the hey?

Charlatan · 09-22-2005, 12:04 PM

It's been on your coins since the late 1800s and on the bills since the late 50s early 60s.

Just so I don't come off sounding secular than thou... Our national anthem, Constitution (Canada Act) and other federal documents make reference to God as well. Had I couched this discussion under those terms, many of you would have just said, "What? More wacky Canadian stuff?"

We have all of these references and they have little to no bearing on my day to day life, and yet, there they are. I am almost always taken aback when I come across them...

God is fairly abscent from our politics and yet we too were founded by men of God. I refer again, to the stats I mentioned above. That not too long ago Canada and the US were about equal in the per capita number of those who considered themselves religious. Over the past 30 years or so our paths have diverged. There has been an increase in the US mirrored by an equal drop in numbers in Canada.

I find that facsinating.

alansmithee · 09-22-2005, 12:07 PM

I personally see nothing wrong with it. I understand Mr. Spacemonkey's point and agree with it-by having these small indicators of religion in and around gov't, you show that there is religious freedom. There's no need to hide your religion. Also, since it's not forced on anyone, it doesn't infringe on rights.

And the "separation of church and state" isn't in the constitiution, btw. All the constitution says is gov't cannot establish a nat'l religion. It doesn't even say anything about favoring one over the other. This is a primarily christian country, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you don't believe in christianity, that's fine as well. But to ignore the majority on the off-chance someone somewhere might be offended is silly.

tspikes51 · 09-22-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

The supposed seperation of church and state gone right out the fucking window.

Fucking hypocrites.

Yes, since this was done recently. Fuckin shit people, like it or not, our country was founded by Christians. I'm not saying that everybody should go convert, but goddammit, it's part of our history. Get the hell over it. Does Alabama still want to secede from the Union??? No, but they still fly Dixie in their flag. What is having a couple of words on your money gonna do??? What about the all-seeing eye on the back of our one dollar bill??? It's a symbol of the Illuminati, who want to destroy the Catholic church. I'm sure Catholics would be opposed to that, but nobody gives a shit. The Greeks never tore down any of their temples. It's really not that big of a deal. Give it a break.

05-14-2003, 08:11 AM	#1 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	In God We Trust I have always wondered what this term actually means to most Americans. It is on your money, it is on your president's lips... God Bless America was practically a mantra in post 9/11. Here in Canada, our leaders would never dream of speaking about their religious lives in a public forum (when they do they aren't likely to stay popular - ie Reform ex-leader Stockwell Day). In the USA is almost seems that being a Christian is a prerequisite to taking the position and once in power they must display their religion on their sleeve. I suppose it could be argued that there is a large percentage of the population base that is Christian and therefore it is important to appeal to them. So I ask: 1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian). 2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-14-2003, 08:21 AM	#2 (permalink)
spectre Junkie	It's nothing new. Most countries have done it at some point. The idea is, "if God is on our side, who will stand against us?" It's a good way to bring even quasi-religious people together and make them believe that the country is strong and shouldn't fear because a higher power is backing them. Look at almost any country in history, the leaders will always say that their god is somehow cheering them on rather than some other country. It keeps the population under control by having them questioning authority less because they aren't as afraid of outside attacks. __________________ "Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head

05-14-2003, 08:23 AM	#3 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	as a baptized nonpracticing catholic.. it means nothing but belief in a higher being of sorts. As far as it being a mdeling of church and state, I don't see it nor do I feel it. It onlly has as much power as I allow it to have, positive or negative. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

05-14-2003, 10:45 AM	#5 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	The supposed seperation of church and state gone right out the fucking window. Fucking hypocrites. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

05-14-2003, 10:51 AM	#7 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	"In God We Trust" speak for yourself In Hal I Trust __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

05-14-2003, 11:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	It doesn't mean a thing to me. I think the word "god" stands for something a lot of other people take an interest in. __________________ create evolution

05-14-2003, 02:06 PM	#10 (permalink)
apetaster Insane Location: P.R. Mass.	I am a non-believer and I frankly could care less. It is a bromide that has been diluted in meaning so much it has about as much meaning to me as someone saying 'take care.' Start putting up crosses or pentagrams in town halls and that's where I'd get a bit peeved. I did find it curious too though when Billy Graham (Jr?) did the Jeebus prayer at the last inauguration.

05-14-2003, 03:03 PM	#11 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	I really don't care about the "In God We Trust". It's not a big deal and most Americans probably don't even know its there. The rhetoric of our leaders, however, particularly at the national level, does bother me considerably. Although it probably started with Jimmy Carter, he was very careful to seperate his religious beliefs from his duty as President. When giving speeches, he would hardly ever mention God. Today, in contrast, we have people like Senator Lieberman and President Bush who often make their religious beliefs the focus of their speeches and policies. They actively work to tear down the wall between church and state here at home. And they actively try to manifest their fundamentalist beliefs abroad. They are not merely religious people, they are religious extremists and are as harmful to the well-being of this country as any terrorist.

05-14-2003, 05:13 PM	#12 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	So I ask: 1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian). Well, I am a Christian, but I do not (and will not) push my views on anyone. I also kind of hate hearing these phrases due to it being 'the thing' to say. It's like the "hero" bullshit after 9-11. Sure, we had several heros (ie, the guys who took down the terrorist on the plane), but if you were joe blow asking for a nickel on the corner of TWT, you are a 'hero'. to use a term often demeans it and makes it loose it's effect.. personally, against judgement of friends and peers (besides one sweet blonde friend) I say God bless Iraq. the citizens need help.. bad. 2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state? No. cuz if you arn't Christian (namely Baptist or Catholic) then your god will be beat up by our god is the basic mental power held by my fellow US citizens, especially the "Christians". it fucking disgusts me and it makes me want to say "they are not my people". but I do follow Christ...... hmm. we need to create me a religious name! Z, the Christ loving hippy.

05-14-2003, 07:41 PM	#14 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	In God we Trust and such means nothing to me. It's just another catchphrase of the month like "Let's Roll" and "Bling Bling." and almost as ridiculous. Our nation has never had true seperation of church and state and I don't think it ever will and any argument to fully segregate the two is folly. While it's not as fanatical a melding as other religious states, church and state have melded none the less. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

05-15-2003, 05:33 AM	#18 (permalink)
Unknown Poster Insane	I am non-religious(agnostic?), but "In God We Trust" doesn't bother me in the slightest. As far as Bush should say "God Bless America" in his speeches goes, he is not violating the establishment clause. The first amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....". Bush saying "God Bless America" does neither.

05-15-2003, 05:38 AM	#19 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	I am an atheist and I have no problem with "in god we trust", "god bless america", or "one nation under god." It's nothing but morale-boosting rhetoric, and it in no way harms anyone to have it on our currency or in our schools. Compare our religious freedoms with that of Iraq under Saddam Hussein and perhaps you will see how ridiculous the "wipe god off of everything!" argument is. Those who claim to be atheists, and have a serious problem with hearing or reading the word "God" need to do a couple of things. First, learn to take yourself less seriously, because what you are comfortable with is not the number one priority for the nation. Second, re-evaluate your choice of theology because if your beliefs (or anti-beliefs) are so fragile that you cannot be presented with an "opposing" viewpoint, then perhaps atheism is not for you. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames Last edited by seretogis; 05-15-2003 at 05:41 AM..

05-15-2003, 05:46 AM	#20 (permalink)
vermin Indifferent to anti-matter Location: Tucson, AZ	1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian). I am a christian but I'll answer anyway. In God We Trust is a statement of the kind of beliefs the founders of this country held. Take it off the money, leave it on, I don't care either way. God Bless America is a short prayer full of good intentions. When it's twisted into a catch phrase it becomes a mockery. 2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state? No. The constitution says there should be no official state religion. Just mentioning God in a speech doesn't specify what these guys consider gods or which god they're talking about or imply that to be a good american you must follow their god. It reduces 'god' to catch phrase status. This, too, shall pass. __________________ If puns were sausages, this would be the wurst.

05-15-2003, 06:24 AM	#22 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	Ever notice that People against the united states(i mean REALLY hate the united states) has a different religions than US? I wonder if we changed the Slogan to In Mohammad we trust, or in Budha we trust. Would these people come to like us? Well then I guess the christians would get all pissed off, thats far worse than muslims and Budhist combined.. Cybermike looks around to see how many people he pissed off __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

05-15-2003, 07:10 AM	#23 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	I think some of you are missing the point on the rhetoric coming for our political representatives. Do you really think its harmless when President Bush refers to the war on terror as a "crusade"? Even when the rhetoric itself is not harmful, it is indicative of the role that religion has on that politician's policies. This article from the CS Monitor focuses on the role of religion in shaping Bush's foreign policy, but it can also be applied to his domestic policy:New scrutiny of role of religion in Bush's policies

09-22-2005, 09:28 AM	#26 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I'd like to BUMP this thread. It was started back in 2003 and I am curious to see if the general consensus is the same now as it was back then: So I ask, again: 1. What do "In God We Trust" and "God Bless America" mean to you (especially if you aren't Christian). 2. Does the presence of God in US rhetoric represent a melding of religion and state? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-22-2005, 09:42 AM	#27 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	Im posting this to the OP's statement and haven’t yet read anything anyone responded with, so with that stated here goes. In god we trusts, and god bless America, it has been around since I was born and longer, it has been served to me on a golden platter with the most tastiest of foods, it is waved under my noise like the sweatiest smelling treat, and yet it is completely and utterly annoying and insulting to me. Though I know its not stated "what god" we trust, or under what god, there still remains to be religions such as mine that does not call their deity types god, and find it insulting to do so. For the most part I ignore it and pretend it doesn’t exist, but it still stands to be the one of the major things about America that I could do without. __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-22-2005, 09:49 AM	#28 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I think the capitalization on the word God makes it pretty clear that we are talking about the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God. Other deities are just gods. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-22-2005, 10:03 AM	#29 (permalink)
Daoust "I'm sorry. What was the question?" Location: Paradise Regained	My question is this: is it REALLY that offensive? Assuming we are talking about the Judeo-Christian God, and you are an atheist, or a buddhist, or a gnostic or whatever else... The United States was founded by Christians. It's foundation was built upon by Christian men with Christian beliefs and ideals. These men put their faith and trust in God, and they sought His wisdom and direction as the United States was born and began to grow. Now there is today in the USA a large contingent of people who don't trust in God. But I think that if you asked the majority of Americans, regardless of their faith preference, you would get a resounding response in favour of keeping the "In God We Trust" motto in place. It's historical and spiritual in significance. Americans on the TFP, I ask you... are you truly and deeply offended by the phrase "In God We Trust" ? Are you offended to the point where you think that because of your being annoyed, the United States should forever remove this motto and replace it with something far less significant, or historically relevant? Is it fair to remove it, keeping in mind the rich tradition and culture of Christianity in the United States past and present??? __________________ I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

09-22-2005, 10:24 AM	#30 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	To me, "In God We Trust" is just an embracement of America's freedom of religion. We aren't communists, we shouldn't have to worry about hiding religion just to avoid offending some people. I don't understand why it's such a big deal to some people. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

09-22-2005, 10:24 AM	#31 (permalink)
bad jane Insane	i'm not christian and i'm with those who could care less. to be honest, i consider those statements meaningless. i rank it right up there with all the state mottos and other catchy phrases like "land of the free and home of the brave." i suppose if "we" trust in god, i'm not a part of the crowd. but really, who cares? it spends the same for us non-believers as it does for the devout. if we were going to change anything about our money, i suggest the color. green? come on, let's brighten it up with a nice shade of pink as for bush and his fun statements, well, let's just say it is one more thing we disagree on.

09-22-2005, 11:04 AM	#35 (permalink)
ElvenDestiny Tilted Location: Pittsburgh, Pa	Well the In god we trust like I said I can over look simply because im used to the insulting mannerism of such things, but things like "under god" in our song was added much later, in fact it wasn’t added until after WW2, and in many peoples opinions it was adding simply to annoy and insult Atheists and non-christians. And do not pretend that the Christians were the ONLY ones who helped make our country what it is today. They just happened to be the majority and history tells enough of that sad story. Just because ‘Christians’ as you say are the claimed founder of the United States doesn’t matter to me simply because those Christians who did so were nothing more than Tyrants and money hungry heathens. In fact they founded the United States through shedding the blood of the natives who lived here. We as the United States may not be communists but we are truly nothing more than Tyrants. Of course that is in my own opinion __________________ A trees touch could be so soft it could steal you from reality. A winds whisper could be so fierce it could steal your life away.

09-22-2005, 11:36 AM	#36 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Mojo... I get that the founders we largely men of God and that with that comes certain trappings. Should this change to reflect the increasingly secular, or better yet, polytheistic America? Or is America unchanging? I find it facinating that your politicians must wear their religion on their sleeve, while other nations need not. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-22-2005, 11:52 AM	#37 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Seeing as "In God We Trust" was added to our money during the Red Scare, I think it's a funny little piece of American history. It has exactly nothing, nada, zilch to do with our nation's founding. I always find that amusing. I would prefer it wasn't there, as I think that explicitly mentioning religious beliefs on currency is unnecessary at best. I read the word "We" and I have to ask, who is "we?" It's not the American people as a whole, because "we" don't all believe in "God" or a "god." I think there are bigger issues, but I do find the whole thing annoying. To me, it's a breach of Church and State, but not a huge one and I always get a laugh out of it, so what the hey? __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

09-22-2005, 12:04 PM	#38 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	It's been on your coins since the late 1800s and on the bills since the late 50s early 60s. Just so I don't come off sounding secular than thou... Our national anthem, Constitution (Canada Act) and other federal documents make reference to God as well. Had I couched this discussion under those terms, many of you would have just said, "What? More wacky Canadian stuff?" We have all of these references and they have little to no bearing on my day to day life, and yet, there they are. I am almost always taken aback when I come across them... God is fairly abscent from our politics and yet we too were founded by men of God. I refer again, to the stats I mentioned above. That not too long ago Canada and the US were about equal in the per capita number of those who considered themselves religious. Over the past 30 years or so our paths have diverged. There has been an increase in the US mirrored by an equal drop in numbers in Canada. I find that facsinating. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-22-2005, 12:07 PM	#39 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	I personally see nothing wrong with it. I understand Mr. Spacemonkey's point and agree with it-by having these small indicators of religion in and around gov't, you show that there is religious freedom. There's no need to hide your religion. Also, since it's not forced on anyone, it doesn't infringe on rights. And the "separation of church and state" isn't in the constitiution, btw. All the constitution says is gov't cannot establish a nat'l religion. It doesn't even say anything about favoring one over the other. This is a primarily christian country, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you don't believe in christianity, that's fine as well. But to ignore the majority on the off-chance someone somewhere might be offended is silly.