maleficent

N.Y. Teacher on Leave for Soapy Punishment
ROCHESTER, N.Y. - An elementary school teacher was placed on paid leave for washing a boy's mouth out with soap after he shouted an obscenity at a classmate.

Lori Thomas, 48, who has taught for six years at inner-city School 22, said she was stunned when a 10-year-old boy directed "a vile, very nasty sexual reference" at a third-grade girl in March.

Thomas said she didn't want the boy, who had frequently been sent home for unruly behavior, to earn another one-week suspension.

She took the boy to the nurse's office, she said, "put a drop of soap of his lower lip, washed it out immediately and told him I never wanted to hear filth like that coming out of his mouth again."

"Old-fashioned ways work," she said unapologetically.

The boy behaved for the remainder of the day and didn't complain to his foster mother, Thomas said. The boy's brother told district officials what had happened, she said.

Thomas was suspended indefinitely. The district could either fire Thomas - even though tenure provides such teachers "a lot of protection" - or level "a lesser amount of discipline," said Joanne Giuffrida, personnel chief in the 6,000-employee school district.

"I wish we could have handled this more expeditiously too," Giuffrida said. She said an investigation will likely be completed within two weeks.

More than 40 relatives of children in Thomas' class have asked for her to be reinstated.
<hr>
Was the teacher right or wrong? If you were the parent, and this was your child, what would your reaction be?

__________________

Bill O'Rights

Well, I'm old school so, Hell yeah he deserved it. And, in my opinion, the teacher was well within her rights to do so. Were I the parent of said miscreant...he would've gotten more of the same, at home.

The lunatics are running the asylum.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

filtherton

I like the idea of teachers putting stuff in my child's mouth.
Fuck that. That's crossing the line.

irseg

While I have no problem with this as a form of discipline and would likely do it myself, I'd flip the fuck out on any teacher who did that to a kid of mine. That's overstepping boundaries by a long shot.

Being legally forced to send your kids to a place where people think they have the right to discipline your kids as they see fit does not sit well with me.

If you were in Wal-Mart and some walked up and spanked your kid for crying or something, I'd say most of us here would beat the shit out of the person or at least call the cops on them. Same goes for teachers IMO.

ARTelevision

Any teacher who hasn't gotten the clue that there is a hands-off policy that has been arrived at in schools - or who doesn't realize that the teacher has no role in discipline anymore because it has effectively been usurped by the predominant ideologies of the culture, the school boards, administrators, and PTO groups, is living in a dreamworld.

If she thinks there is some option available that has anything remotely to do with disciplining her students - she has no clue whatsoever and is in the wrong profession.

__________________
create evolution

maleficent

So, then teachers should have no authority to discipline a kid? That these little heathens can run around and do as they please without fear of reprisal.

had this teacher not done what she did( oh that made my head hurt) then the brat would have gotten ANOTHER suspension, apparantly that's absolutely useless as punishment.

__________________

Arroe

it's not horrible, i don't know if it was the best thing to do, but she shouldn't lose her job.

she put a DROP of soap on his lip. not like she shoved a bar of soap in his mouth. and i think the kid got the point.

also, the teacher is not a stranger to the child. kids in elementary school have their teacher 5 days a week, for 6 to 7 hours a day, 9 months of the year. the kids respect the teachers, I'd say just as much as they respect their parents, maybe even more (i'd curse infront of my parents but not infront of my teacher).

KellyC

The teacher did the right thing.

The discipline system is too weak in America, kids got away with the weakest punishment for their misconducts and they still act like the little shits they are after the punishment. I'd like to see the reinstatement of "the paddle."
This comes from someone who got his share of ass whomping back in the day.

I don't really have a problem about teachers discipline my child, if I were to have one, that just tells me I've failed in some part and I need to do a better job.

__________________
Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
Me: Shit happens.

Rubyee

I would have stood by and let her, watching with glee if my son had said something sexually explicit to a little girl- even if they are the same age.

But personally, I would not put my children in the care of other people for hours a day, each day of the week, and say "Now, don't try and punish them at all. Just sit them in a corner and tell them they were naughty."

Would I want my child beaten? Perhaps not. But I think that his punishment fit the crime to a T, and it was deserved. I would have done it in front of everyone that had heard him say it, too.

Unfortunatley, she will probably get suspended herself, if not fired. At least she is setting an example. I think that many other teachers would have ignored it- causing problems for the boy in the future, as well as the girl.

Way to go, teach!

__________________
You don't know from fun.

bermuDa

My grandmother washed my mouth out with a BAR of soap once. It just made me more careful about swearing around her.

not all old methods are effective.

__________________
I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

filtherton

He's ten years old, maybe he couldn't grasp the gravity of what he said. If so, soap in the mouth does little to take advantage of a teachable moment. Like bermuDa said, this kid probably just learned who not to swear around, that's it.

ARTelevision

maleficent, I was a teacher for a long time - at every educational level.

My statement had nothing to do with what should or should not be. I was stating how it is. Discipline is not something that is encouraged or condoned in practice anymore. It is occasionally given lip service, because it sounds good to talk about. But all means of effective discipline have been taken away from teachers. What is surprising is that this teacher doesn't seem to know that.

__________________
create evolution

Bill O'Rights

I disagree. I think that he grasped the gravity of it...just fine.

And, what's wrong with learning that there is a time and a place for everything? I never for one moment thought that the kid was just going arrive at a sudden epiphany that all swearing is bad, and that he should never ever do it again. But...for one brief shining moment...this kid learned respect, and got the message.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Redgirl

I think the teacher was right and I wouldn't have a problem with it if I were the parent. Generally the kind of parent who would flip out about a teacher disciplining their kid like this is the kind who has a child that NEEDS discipline. If the parents won't do it, who does it fall to?

And I would say knowing who you can swear around and who you can't is something we all have to learn, right? So he did learn something- a little respect for the teacher.

__________________
Thought for the day: Men are like fine wine. They start out as grapes, and it's up to the women to stomp the crap out of them until they turn into something acceptable to have dinner with.

p0thead

i think its past the line.. what if your kid got sick? then you would sue the shit out of the school and the teacher.. the teacher should have never gotten herself in this predicament. just suspend that bastard again, and again, and again if needed. if the parents dont realize their kid is a troublemaker, there isnt much the teacher can do. she should know her role, and that is to educate not discipline.

Slauncha Man

First of all, I'd like to know what the kid said. The teacher made it sound like he'd uttered something so grossly taboo that glasses broke and dogs started barking for miles around. In reality, he probably called the girl a slut or a whore. As far as the punishment goes, I think that the teacher shouldn't be fired necessarily, but fined and reminded very harshly not to use old-school punishments in the future.

__________________
-Slauncha

maleficent

What I find most disturbing about this incident, the little heathen didn't complain. The foster momma didn't complain. Who did? The brother. What'd he do? go to the district officials, not even the school. Now no idea of the age of this kid, but I'd guess early teens, and he's on the road to not taking any responsibility for one's own actions at all.


The teacher's union is pretty damn strong, and as much as I thoroughly detest that union, they should try to do a little good, they've as much as said, this teacher can't be fired because of tenure, but how about using it as an example to allow some discipline in the classroom. Not saying have a board of education in the classroom, but a child has to learn consequences.

Back when I was this kid's age, ok, it was parochial school, but the nuns and lay teachers put up with no nonsense from kids at all. If I ever got in trouble at school, I'd rather get the punishment from the teachers because I knew damn well I'd get it twice as bad when I home. Different time, different place, most people I know in my age group, lived in fear of the board of education and a paddling, but, we all managed to make it to adulthood with no visible scarring.

For years, I taught math in a NYC evening high school, for a few years, it's amazing what these kids could get away with saying, and doing, and what little authority I, as the teacher, had to do about it. Kid gets suspended for mouthing off? Hot damn, they've got a vacation.

What exactly is wrong with getting some discipline back in the schools.

[end rant]

__________________

maleficent

Calling someone a slut or a whore is not exactly a compliment, doesn't exactly leave someone with the warm fuzzies.

__________________

streak_56

I am so happy that someone actually did this... I am a firm believer in bringing back the paddle and washing out the childs mouth with soap was exactly what the kid deserved. Getting suspended doesn't do s**t anymore.... my brother got suspended, I've gotten suspended and we both found it a joke. My parents grounded us... so what.... that was a joke too.... nowadays people are so wound up because of one person who took it too far. Now... I'm not in favor of out right beating a child half to death or belittle him in front of the other children... which I am particularly proud that this teacher took the child out of the class room and did it somewhere where it was private... I think a spanking or in this case.... washing his mouth out with soap was a just punishment.... it did no harm and the kid learned his lesson.

my rant is done

Hwed

I had a teacher some 20 years ago who did this. Not only did it have a 100% rehabilitation success rate, but it failed to make the national news.

raeanna74

I would have no problem with a teacher using such discipline on my child if she were to be cursing at school. I think the boy got the message. I bet next time he thought abou swearing he stopped at least to look around for the teacher who would punish him. It would at least stall him and perhaps he will learn not to continue cursing.

As a teacher though I've seen what Art is speaking of. Teachers are not even allowed to restrain students usually. When I worked with an autistic girl we had to get special permission to restrain her in her fits so that she wouldn't end up giving herself concussions. Most of the time we would hug her closely and sometimes had to hold her hands (I got a black eye once from her) but as soon as she was calm we had to release her. Contact with a child in any negative manner can be a problem.

I'm sure this teacher knew the risks. They shouldn't have done it simply based on the current rules in the system.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

sexymama

I am a parent who would flip out and I'm very strict with my children.

Once my daughter did swear at school by calling another girl a bitch. The girl had been harassing her for weeks before she finally got to that point. Even though I think my daughter had a right to stand up for herself, she did not get away with calling the girl a bitch. I talked with her, and she bawled out of feeling bad. However, she still faced a consequence. I believe she had no social life that weekend.

Not only that, I'm a teacher and I run a "very tight ship." There are very effective ways to discipline beyond the "old fashion" ways. Imho, it is sad that we resort to violance (no matter how small) to discipline and then wonder why our world is so violant.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

Lebell

Won't fly, but in my perfect world, the teacher would have done it and then, upon finding out, the parents would have done it again.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

punx1325

I absolutely think she did the right thing. Suspension wasn't working, so try something new. She got the point across. The kid was a rude butthole and she set him stright, so I give her props.

__________________
If something seems too good to be true, then it probably is....

la petite moi

It was a good thing that she finally got the point across; however, it was breaking a school rule, right? Who's to say, then, that the old-fashioned technique of whacking kids with rulers isn't okay?

Astrocloud

Oddly enough -I'm actually for this. Perhaps even in front of his classmates so that it can be a public display of a punishment. Then again -people say that I'm more conservative than I let on.

pocon1

Im not for it. on the other hand, and many probably will agree with me, if a teacher reported to me that my child was causing trouble in school, then I will hand out the appropriate punishment. I think many of us who are educated, who care enough to read about issues like this, will not have a major problem with poorly disciplined children. Often, it is the shitty parents who let their kids run wild and don't teach them respect for adults, respect for school that cause problems.
I will disclipline my child. You just let me know. You hit my child, I will come over and hit you.

H12

Bingo. I'd gladly put the soap in my child's mouth myself, but I'd be furious if someone else did it for me. I remember just saying "crap" one time moderately loud when I was in about the 3rd grade...my mom promptly pulled me to the nearest bathroom and put a bar of soap in my mouth, then told me to not swear again. It's only been this past year that I've tempted to cuss in front of either of my parents, and even then I really try not to without the right context...and my parents are cussers, too.

The soap works, I just don't think it should be anybody else's responsibility to do it besides the parents'.

__________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."
--Aristotle

tangledweb

She definitely screwed up but it sounds like she was fed up with conventional methods because they obviously didn't work on the little shit.

My father just retired from 32 years of teaching at the high school level. He was nearly fired several times for trying 'alternative' discipline methods on his unruly kids. Each and every year, after the first and most deviant little bastard had been made example of, discipline problems jsut disappeared. His willingness to actively show that there were consequences to their actions worked AND made him quite popular with the kids.

There is no exact response that is appropriate for every specific situation. Lack of perceived discipline disrupts the education of others by letting the wild kids rule without fear of reprisal. i.e. It isn't really punishment to send a kid home for misbehaving when he just wanted to be sent home in the first place.

maleficent

In this example only, this kid had been suspended more than once, he clearly wasn't getting the message. What'd the foster mom think? It was a school vacation?

What other conventional methods are there? Zero tolerance bullshit? The teacher didn't have anything else at her disposal.

This teacher could have humiliated this kid by doing it in front of the rest of the class, but she didn't she took him to an office.

For the 10% parents who say they will discipline their kids, there are 90% that don't, they're too busy being buddies to their kids, to bother with discipline.


Eh - that's why I decided against teaching full time, I was sick of parents who didn't care.

__________________

Esco

Exactly. Nobody lays a hand on my child. While I'm sure some parents do not take the responsiblility of teaching their children discipline, I do not need anybody teaching mine.

I understand the frustration and anger of the teacher. I even cheer her on, deep down inside ... but that's only because it's not my child.

mingusfingers

Good job. If you don't want to have teachers do it, home school.

__________________
Still Looking

OFKU0

And hard

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

maleficent

Yours was the last post, so I'm picking on you -- if most of the other parents are not disciplining their heathens, and the school isn't allowed to discipline the heathens, then your disciplined child is not getting the education that your and my tax dollars pay for.

Besides, if you are actually disciplining your child, then it's not acting up in class, because it has been taught how to behave.

Teachers not being able to discipline ruins the educational experience for ALL students. The parents of these heathens aren't doing shit, traditional methods of suspension aren't doing shit, what's the solution?

__________________

cchris

It tasted like shit all those years ago and didn't I learn a lesson.

If my boy ever gets this sort of treatment at school then an uppercut and right cross for me and said teacher is needed.

__________________
There's a fine line between participation and mockery

OFKU0

More ritalin. I guess this school doesn't pass it out like Helloween candy as others do.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Bill O'Rights

I don't know of any school that hands out Ritalin. It is a drug that is prescribed by a doctor. School nurses are charged with administering required dosages...but that's about it. I would take much greater umbrage with a school giving my child prescription drugs than I would with the school providing discipline, where it is clearly needed.

For those that are opposed to schools disciplining the kids in their charge, what is the answer then? Bearing in mind that there are parents out there that just don't give a shit, and do not discipline their kids at home. All this serves to do is disrupt the learning environment, and take valuable time away from the kids that are there to learn.

At one time, I gave serious thought to being a history, or civics teacher. (English was obviously out ) Now...hearing all of these horror stories, along with seeing firsthand how the educational system operates at my daughter's high school...you couldn't pay me enough to go to the front of a classroom.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

H12

Here's the problem with the school system rules: the rules were written and designed as if everybody who attends school wants to achieve and be taught the lessons. If you're sent home, you can't be there for when the teacher starts the next chapter...but there's too many students who really don't care enough about the next chapter to make those rules even worth having. I wish they could redesign the rules for the kids who see that as pleasure instead of pain.

__________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit."
--Aristotle

bbrown4

If that were my little girl, the one that got called the offensive word, I'd feel better.

If it were my little boy, the one that said the offensive word, I'd also feel better that the lesson that I wasn't around to teach him got taught to him anyway.

Sooner or later teachers are going to have to be given some leeway again. Human Resource Manuals don't teach kids - teachers do.

sexymama

Exactly. There are much better ways to discipline then swatting, soap, etc.

Call a dirty name, clean the filth in the room (wash all the shelves, etc.)
Punch, hit, kick -- loss of recesses, apology notes, lunch alone.
Disrespect the teachers or other classmates -- same as above, no recess until a list of 10 ways to show respect is produced.

Other consequences:
In school suspension -- not as fun as being at home with the
television and computer.
Miss a special class.
Detention
Desk set away from all the other students.

What I avoid at all cost is involving the administrator. Usually a princessapal is too soft on the kid. I think firm but fair is always the best solution.

Also, in this case, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious: this child didn't learn the word(s) he used from nowhere. It was obviously modeled at home. Maybe all he needs to learn is better ways to express his anger (after all, we all get angry, it is what we do with it that matters.) So, possibly a better consequence is to list 5-10 ways to say what he needed to say without swearing or calling names.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.