Strange Famous

I think it is kind of interesting, that I get the impression that in America E is considered a really hardcore drug? I dont know hoe true that impression is though?

In the UK, after wacky baccy/weed, E if the most commonly used drug amongst young people, I think about 1 million (1 in 50 or so) of the population of the UK uses it every week, growing up I would say at least 50% of the kids at school tried E (I never did, I only smoked weed and did some whizz/amphetemines) but E is a drug that is very popular and considered close to socially acceptable in the UK

is there really as big a difference in the views of the drug as I think, or is it just me?

In the UK, also, cocaine is considered a really hard drug, and only rich people or real druggies use it, or at least that is the social percecption - you are either a stock broker, a TV/pop star or an addict if you use coke... whereas I always think that cocaine usage is much more widespread in the states, maybe to the same degree that E is used here?

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NotMinus

If this is based of my post. It is because I have seen what E can do. I have used drugs recreationaly, I drink and I smoke occasionaly. I have to say that using drugs or drinking at your highschool prom is a bad idea, afterwards at least shows the user has a little more sense. I think of E as a dangerous drug because you have no idea what you are taking, same with herrorin, coke or E. I have a freind who volunteeres regularly at a drug rehabilitation center who has told me about the volume of people who use E is north american occasionaly then end up with a single bad pill and need hospitalization for a month. The story goes that a drug dealer cooks up a good batch, everyone associates the new pill as being a good batch and the first batch buys it up; no problem. Then, the drugs work their way down the line and someone halfs the pill leaving the symbol on top and adds dish detergent or rat poison (whatever they have on hand) on the bottom. Jhonny Needs to get High Smith, takes the pill for the first time based on the reputation of his freind who took the first batch and ends up in the hospital. Its just the fact that until you have injested it, god knows what in the pill.

noahfor

Here was my reply to your post:

Well, actually we were going to it afterwards. Why do you say it's a new low. Have you done it? I can't see how it is any more low than drinking alcohol, and I think we all know that will be done on prom. Alcohol is the most neurotoxic drug, it's effects are much more extreme than those of ecstasy, and without checking the facts I gurantee it has contributed to at least 100 times more deaths than that of ecstasy. Ectasy hightens awareness, empathy, intelligence, creativity, emotion, communication, all things I would want to be hightened on a night that has potential to be special. I don't even have to say what alcohol does. Ectasy on prom night I think will be a new high. There is no such thing as fake experience. Experience is experience whether it is drug induced or not. I'm interested in hearing why you think it is low.

Also, I bought a test kit online so that I know what I am getting.

I think most of time the conception of how dangerous or hard a drug is has nothing to do with with how dangerous or hard the drug really is. I have done alot of drugs: LSD, Mushrooms, Heroin, OC, 2cb, 2ci, cocaine, and nothing that any of those drugs has done to me compares to waking up in the morning after a night of drinking and coming to find that you were doing things you weren't even conscious for, beating people up, swearing, peeing your pants, laying in your own vomit.

Someone I know got drunk the other night and stole a police car.

Cynthetiq

why can't a night be special without ANY intoxicants?

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noahfor

Because I'm anhedonic. I understand your point. I'm not saying it can't be, but I'd rather experience it on E.

Most of the hard drugs enhance mental clarity, unlike weed and alcohol which decrease it. I think alot of people don't understand this. Even people that do drugs have ridiculous prejudices about drugs they don't do. I know this kid who has told me about a methamphetamine binge he was on. I think that is an incredibly stupid thing to be on, considering the neurotoxicity of amphetamine. This kid tells me not to ever let this other kid into my car because he shoots up heroin. The thing is heroin is much less toxic and pretty much maintains one's normal state of mind. It can be very destructive but the chemical itself isn' that harmful, and neither are its immediate effects.

kel

Drugs are bad mmmkay?

;-)

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sprocket

From my vantage point, E doesnt have a reputation for being a "hardcore" drug in America. Its perception is more "hardcore" than weed, but not to the level of coke or heroin.

Of course, in the US, the drugwar-machine's new favorite drug to hate is E. It often seems like we think its the ultimate in hard drugs, but its precisely because most dont think its that big a deal that the anti-drug propoganda targets E so much. This is a drug that is accepted by most middle and upper class youth in America. When police cheifs and mayors and senators started discovering THEIR kids were doing this drug, it became the holy mission to stamp it out. They dont need to care too much about heroine, crystal meth or pcp.. those are minority drugs... mainly used in the parts of town that they dont want to drive through.

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isis

I think because E is not "natural" some people think it to be more dangerous than Cocaine or other drugs.

tisonlyi

Which is why these sorts of drugs should be legalised, standardised and taxed for their costs to society.

CONTROL, not liberalisation.

You know, the control freaks/whores to the dollar that right wingers/republicans/conservatives are, they should all be hankering to get the stuff pushed into every tobacconist and publican's establishment throughout every nation of the 'free' world.

You can get back to the topic, now.

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MSD

If anyone considers it to be hardcore, it's because of the scare tactics used by our government's waste-of-time-and-money "war on drugs." Nobody I know who has extensive knowledge of drugs (users and non-users) considers it to be a hard drug. It's just above pot on the scale, and pot is at the same level as tobacco. This is only true of my generation, not the older folks. They smoke themselves to death with tobacco and start riots if a kid smokes a joint.

noahfor

I think E has more potential to screw one's brain up in the long run than pot does. Plus it can kill a person in certain ways. I thinks it's effects are probably less hard than weed. Infact I don't know how its effects can even be considered hard. I wouldn't call increased empathy hard.

I would consider acid below marijuana in "hardness" though.

exponent_doobie

E isn't really viewed as hardcore in my area close to Vancouver, Canada. It's just that people are scared shitless now that quite a few deaths have occured after a few people popped it and later ended up in the morgue because someone either made a bad batch, or just cooked it up with anything they could find (dish detergents, drain cleaners, etc...).

analog

Indeed. *rolls another joint, passes to the left*

Jam

doesnt e fuck up your back or something? //me is drug ignorant... a drug virging if you will

Cynthetiq

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noahfor

It's a myth. There is also a similar one about LSD.

moonstrucksoul

it falsely hightens those things, for a limited amount of time.wtf? have you ever had real acid? maybe they only sell weak ass shit in high school these days.

as for the hardness of it of course it's a hard drug, any drug that is created from being sythesized, or refined is hard in my book. not a plant that is grows naturally, is cropped, dried and smoked. as for shrooms and other natural hallucinogens, well that's just nature, don't fuck with it, we don't go around and and eat every berry we see do we?

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noahfor

Why do you have to have an attitude. If you think what I'm saying is wrong or harmful, then why don't you prove it instead of just rolling your eyes. I'm not in highschool by the way.
Why do you say MDMA falsely hightens those things? What makes it false?

Why are all drugs that are synthesized or refined hard? What is hard, hard on the body, or just hard effects, or both? I'm pretty sure tylenol is either sythesized or refined, I don't think it just growns in little pills, but I wouldn't consider it a hard drug, or were you talking about recreational drugs only?

What you are saying is only natural drugs are not hard, but not all natural drugs, just some.

Have you done all these drugs, and how many times? Just wondering.

Cynthetiq

I'll answer since I've used all the above drugs EXCEPT for MDMA.

If you look at the DEA narcotics lists will determine the HARD vs. Soft drugs strictly by their classification.

As for usage, LSD is much more potent than an weed including hydroponic weed.

As for falsely... because you have to INGEST something in order to heighten them. That's a false pretense.

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moonstrucksoul

it's false because when you come down off your high, all that awareness, empathy, intelligence, creativity, emotion, communication goes away, and you're left drooling on yourself in a corner. they are not real feelings. I have been around enough people on E throughout years of raving, that I don't like what it brings out in people.

as for Acid, it is one of the worst drugs in know, it's crazy ass shit, that you never know where the fuck it's going to leave you.
the others are hard because they are not natural. as for the "natural" "hard" drugs, they are poisons in your system and generally not to be fucked around with, unless you know what are doing.

as for me, i have done most of what is out there, weed, acid shrooms, coke, opium, X, meth and crank, and enough of them to know.

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noahfor

I find that whenever I disagree with people they take it as a personal attack, so please don't because I am about to.
I disagree with your idea of false. I believe experience is experience, whether it is induced by a drug or whether it is natural. If you feel something, how can it be a fake feeling? The fact that you are feeling it makes it a feeling, a real feeling. Just because we don't naturally feel a way we do on drugs doesn't mean its not real, the brain is capable of feeling this way. It is made to feel these things, or at least it can. I also don't think that just because a person is left without the positive effects after the drug is gone it means the effects were fake, just that they are temporary, and noone is arguing that they aren't.

Drugs don't create fake feelings. A signal is passed through a pathway of nerves, and you perceive a feeling depending on the strenth of the signal and the path it takes. Some drugs increase the strength of these signals and the frequency at which they occur. The reason for some of the feelings is the drug, but it also amplifies natural emotional reaction to certain things. The feeling themselves are not fake at all though, the reasons sometimes may be "fake", but the feeling aren't fake. The pathways are there and the way we perceive these signals is there naturally.

If we all felt the way we do on MDMA naturally why would that be anymore real than feeling that way when we take it.

I have not tripped that hard on acid, but I can handle an intense psychedelic experience, and I just don't think they are as hard as being high. That's pure opinion, and I understand that you don't agree with me. I have tripped off of other substances hard enough to empathize with characters created on the back of my hand as a close and unlcose my fist. I have seen spinning robots turn into candyland on a blanket. I have seen my girlfriend turn into the llama from emperors new groove, and not be able to actualy see what she really looks like, unless I'm seeing 20 faces at once, but while I'm seeing all this I still feel lucid. The emotions are very intense, perceptions have gone to hell, but my thinking is just on the ball. I smoke weed and it just blows my mind how strong that shit is. I don't smoke very often because I just don't like it, so I'm judging fromt he perspective of a person with no tolerance.

I still don't see a reason why unnatural drugs are hard. Can you explain?

Fenton-J-Cool

I was really strongly considering doing it. It seems overly harmless if you're very responsible with it, makes you feel great and make new friends.. and in a notable amount of cases it permanently improves your outlook on life. However, I recently found out the MA in MDMA stands for methamphetamine.. so I'm probably going to sit this one out.

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noahfor

Chloride is a poison and salt has a chloride atom as part of it's molecule. Obviously it isn't the exact same scenario, but you know what i'm saying.

moonstrucksoul

let's say i take some PCP, now, i feel like i can fly, but in reality, I can't, therfore the feelings of being like superman are false.

then why can't you try to feel that way without it? and yes its' still not real.

as for my definition of "hard" it's because they are 'made', they don't grow naturally. that's my definition, and you don't have to agree.
i didn't take offense to what you said, but i feel sad for people who say they take drugs like MDMA to be more outgoing.( not reffering to anyone specific)

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mulletJeb

Thinking you're superman is a delusion. Having heightened sensory, emotional, and cerebral experiences is not a delusion, nor is it "false", it is merely an altered state of consciousness.

Second, "hard" is merely a classification, and a vague one at that as drug users and the government don't agree on much. Some say that they will only try natural drugs because they trust nature more than man. I feel this is foolish, because there are plenty of poisonous things out there in nature. Looking at it from a pharmacological point of view, it doesn't matter how a substance was synthesized. Only the effects that it has on the mind and body are significant.

noahfor

The person above me probably said it better, but I enjoy discussing this, so I'll throw in my thoughts. That really isn't what I would call a feeling. It is more of a belief. It is a real belief induced by Pcp. However, though the belief is real, it is incorrect, and utterly moronic. Who takes
pcp anyway?

Mdma is given to or used by people that are dying, so they can get past the fact that they are dying and be able to say what they really want to say to people who matter to them. I don't think that kind of experience could be fake. If my Dad was dying and I was unable to tell him the things that I really want to tell him and just have an experience where I connect with him and share what I want to share and let him know that I know him and love him, all because of some filter installed by society and other shitty shit, I would thank god for the availability of mdma, and I would never ever regret taking it if I was able to do the things I just described. I'm sure people might say: "you should be able to do that stuff without drugs", and yea we all probably should, but I'm sure that not all of us can do things like that, and I think if it takes taking a drug to be able to do that then I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

Nisses

Strange Famous: as far as E goes, I guess it depends a bit on availability.

As far as I can tell, it's alot easier to get em on our side of the pond (just compare prices for a pill for one thing). So alot more kids can use them, and in the end there's a little more acceptance of the whole thing. It's just how people interact.

noahfor:
Chloride is a poison and salt has a chloride atom as part of it's molecule. Obviously it isn't the exact same scenario, but you know what i'm saying.

--> So what? Oxygen is a dangerous substance, it *oxidises* matter, which is normally undesirable. Yet living organisms adapted because of it's abundance in the atmosphere. They didn't do it to get high off of it. Same thing with salt, you need a percentage of salt. Haven't seen too many people inject or snort it though.
You're calling people that take pcp and the belief moronic, but you don't see a problem with modifying your brain to enhance your sensory input? So it's okay to alter your frontal left lobe but stay away from that frontal right man, that's dangerous?? Sounds like a simple double standard that barely holds up just because it applies to you yourself.

Would you for yourself want the last time you were with your dying father, to be a dead-drunk encounter? Because hey, it loosened you up. For that matter, would you want the last image he retains of you be one reeking of booze? Suck it up, realise you're not gonna give an award-winning speech and see it through instead of trying to escape or circumvent it.


/gets off his soap-box

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noahfor

I don't think you understood anything I said. I did not say taking pcp was moronic. I said believing one can fly is moronic. The thing about salt was a point about molecules which contain other molecules or atoms not acting like the molecules that they contain do on their own. I said if a drug could accomplish those things I wanted them to I would take it. Obviously, alcohol would not.

If I had said taking pcp was moronic I could have done so without creating a double standard, because pcp and mdma are two completely different sustances. I bet you drink water, but I bet you don't eat cyanide, sounds like a double standard to me.

Ripp3r

The distinction between hard and soft is made by the addictive nature of the drug in question.

Heroine is a hard drug since you get addicted on the first use ... addicted may be a wrong term in a way cause after the first time your body did not develop the dependencies yet, but you WILL feel the withdrawel symptoms

now XTC is considered a hard drug in Holland (I think they can be taken as a solid reference point in this matter)

As for the drug being more socially accepted ... sure, especially in the club scene the drug is just as common as weed is in the home/rock scene

Now as for my experience with the drug ...
X definatly hightens your senses, perception, emotions and general awareness.
music sounds more intense the beats pound your ears in a good way and the melodies take you floating away , every part of your body becomes sensitive to the mildest touch and you become a lot more rythmic and fluent while dancing (dunno how it looks from the outside but it sure feels like you are very fluent in your movements) and everything becomes beautifull and nice ... lights, patterns, everything that influences your senses gets more intense ...
So those are not false feelings ... they are heightened feelings ... you would be able to experience them without the drugs i guess ... but it would be really hard ... plus the Euphoria the X enables in your brain would not be there ...

Now, the downside of X and why it is a hard drug.
When coming down from X, you feel the different stages, steps as some people call it.
after a certain period of time you experience a sudden drop in awareness, the music doesn't seem so intense anymore, the movements slow down a little ... thats when you know you are on the way back ... after a few minutes you get used to the new, lesser euphoric feeling... untill the next step.
after about 3 steps your senses are almost back to normal and your motoric functions resume normal activity...
Now, depending on what was mixed in the pills of X you will still have a certain surplus of energy ... like a sugar rush, but worse...
I found myself to be hyperactive the day after ... the body was tired, but the mind was still on overdrive whenever sounds hit my ears ... i started dancing and somehow found sufficient energy to make the body do what the mind thought was needed

Now the next evening (Day 0 +1) we were going to a club again, feeding on the last remains of surplus energy from the X.
around the same time that I had taken the X on Day 0 I finally took the last step down... and suddenly felt tired and exhausted ... (I tried Red bull to prolong the effect of X, to no avail, the reserves were depleted)
The night progressed slowly, the music sounded Dull in comparison, the girls a lot less cute (but still nice tho )

On Day 0+2 I felt mildly depressed. And this is the biggest withdrawel symptom of XTC, the need for Euphoria. The body is not yet dependant, but the mind is in a way... the need for that happyness boost is what draws a lot of people back into the arms of X... and thats when you have to be strong and say no.

XTC on a controlled timeline (once every couple of months) is harmless as there is little or no damage to the body from it, the brain is very resilient and can repair minor damage easily.
but once you start taking regularly, the dependency grows and the addiction is a fact.
Over time, XTC WILL cause damage to your brain, there is a reason we do not feel euphoric all the time ...
Permanent brain damage from extensive use (chasing the dragon) is very common...

there, my experiences and POV
I hope its of some use

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Nisses

Noahfor:

So alcohol does not allow you to deal with the problem, to actually express your feelings in front of other people, yet how many people take a swig before doing similar stuff? So alcohol obviously would do for a number of people.

And don't give me that crap about molecules behaving differently in different matters and double standard. It has nothing to do with this at all, I could repeat my last example, but you seem to miss what I tried to convey through it:

I drink water because I need it to survive. I don't drink alcohol, smoke weed or take E because I need to survive.

You did create a double standard by this simple matter:
You are talking about 2 drugs, admittedly, different drugs. They both however radically change something in your system for no real good reason other than leisure... And leave you with after-effects that at best can be described as undesirable.
Now you happen to take 1 of the 2. And suddenly, it becomes better and healthier than the other drug.
That's what I call a double standard.

Now telling me I have a double standard because I like to drink necessary fluids (for my metabolism at least) and am not too fond of injesting pure poison... that sounds too me like you should perhaps rethink your argument.

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noahfor

I have done heroin on 4 occasions and I don't think I have ever had withdrawl symptoms, and definitely did not get addicted. I was a little sick the next day, but I think that is more of a hangover, unless that is withdrawl, but it made me feel like not taking it. Heroin does have tremendous addiction potential. It is actually the addictive lifestyle - poor diet, poor hygene, etc. - the additives to the drug, infection from injecting, and overdose that do the most damage. The damaging effects of the drug itself are very small, or so I have read.

Ripp3r

having never done heroin, and not planning on trying anytime soon, I cannot describe the withdrawl symptoms... so I can't comment on that

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Ripp3r

this is what I found on withdrawl symptoms of Heroin

This seems to be comparable with what you described...

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noahfor

Notice I say if. "IF it were able to do those things." Alcohol would not enable me to do those things, and I think the fact that I would not have my last moment with my father drunk is just kind of assumed. My point by saying what I said originally is that experience on MDMA is not "fake". I don't even know what your point is.


You are correct I did miss your point.


That was my point. Nothing else. Nothing about double standard there. I don't even know why you chose to respond to it when you have no idea why I was saying it. It might be my fault you have no idea, but you shouldn't respond if you don't. Someone said that he didn't want to take MDMA because MA is meth. I was just saying that just because a molecule-A contains molecule-B doesn't mean A acts exactly like B. I used salt as an example of a molecule-A(salt) not acting like a molecule-B(chloride) which it contains.


#1. I have never taken MDMA.

#2. I did not say ever that taking MDMA was better than taking PCP. I explicitly said that in my first response to you. I said: "thinking you can fly is moronic"
Subject is Adjective. The adjective describes the subject, not something else that you just decide it is going to describe.

I believe your confusion arose from me saying that if I chose - which I HAVE NOT - to say that taking PCP is worse than taking mdma, it would not be a double standard, because they are two completely different substances, and just because they are taken for the same reasons and have "similar" effects does not mean they are the same. Maybe my cyanide and water example was a bit to extreme, it wasn't meant to be an exact analogy, rather an exaggeration so my point would be exaggerated to a level at which it would be easily understood. Here is another example. Tylenol and Oxycontin are both used to relieve pain. If you chew up 10 tylenol, you're pretty stupid, but if you chew up 10 oc, you're alot dumber. Two different substances, two different standard for decided how stupid a person is based on their taking of each substance.

Cynthetiq

Ummm tell that to the people who took PCP thinking that they could fly. Thinking that they could feel like they could fly.

sorry FALSE feeling. can you fly?

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noahfor

Ok. I think we are just misunderstanding eachother. When I say feeling I mean emotion. To me believing you can fly is not a feeling at all. Do people think they can fly on PCP, or is that just a myth. I don't really know much about it.

Also, mulletjeb said what I believe, best:

:::OshnSoul:::

There is no such a thing as false feelings- but the emotions and actions we take upon from those feelings can be false- unthought- etc.
Ecstacy is known as the PLUR drug (Peace, love, Unity, Respect).
Now, aside from that- being sober, 99.9% of humans (even the .1% who deny it) will say they would rather experience PLUR, rather than the Un-PLUR (i.e. Anger & Fear). Ecstacy brings out those truest of feelings embedded within every one of us. E makes it easier for us to express, share, and feel it. Of course, there are many who practice, experience, and apply PLUR in their everyday life without drugs such as Ecstacy. They realize that Peace, Love, Unity, and Respect DO exist. However, how you react to those feelings when you are on a drug are which that can be misleading, harmful, etc. Such as feeling sexual and sleeping with the first person you meet. Or- feeling like you can fly.
Feelings are always true. No matter if you are sober, high, or even drunk. It's the way you handle those feelings.
Ya, I've done Exctacy in my time. It was a spiritual experience for me, and I don't know if I'd be as spiritual as I am today without the drug experience. I don't recommend it, yet I don't regret it.
Ya, on the drug, I felt PLUR. I loved everyone and everything around me and I never felt bad. I saw the beauty and perfection in everyone. Now, not saying that all who take ecstacy have a good trip and experience as delightfully as some, although those are probably the ones who got stuck with *bunk* (bad/laced tabs).
Be safe, be aware, know what you're doing. Don't do it to be able to feel your true feelings.

Lebell

King of the World


When I am King of the World, I'll set up tent cities where all the druggies can go.

There'll be a dispensary that's open 24/7 with crack, smack and blow.

All free for the taking, no jacking, no selling, no hustlin' for your doe.

But once you go in, there's only one way out, with the wreckage lined up in a row.

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sprocket

Ahh choices are too limited. Add some more variety to the lineup and mabye I'll be interested.

Quote:

All free for the taking, no jacking, no selling, no hustlin' for your doe.

SWEET!

Quote:

But once you go in, there's only one way out, with the wreckage lined up in a row.

Who'd want to leave? People on the inside will be having a great time. Those to frightened to go inside will never know what they missed. What a tragedy for them. hehe

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Cynthetiq

if you talk to any person in rehab you'll hear from them that they are trying to meet life on it's terms and feel life as it is without the crutch of any type of alcohol or drugs.

Now then, the feelings you all say are real, but they are predicated on "putting them into place" or inducing them under false pretenses.

In other words, if you go about your life, you don't have those feelings as such until you put something into your body to help it along such as alcohol or drugs.

So while a drunken heart speaks a sober mind, the normal things that prevent you from speaking that sober mind have been removed.

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