Man sent to jail for not showing ID to cops on Demand... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Astrocloud · 02-21-2004, 08:51 PM

I'm posting this here (rather than politics) because I (ahem) believe that there isn't a party line on this issue... I also think that the netizens of tfp would find it interesting... It is interesting.

Quote:

Welcome to Humboldt County. Papers, Please.
No? You're Under Arrest.

On the evening of the 21st of May, 2000, Dudley Hiibel stepped out of his red 1988 GMC pick-up truck and lit a cigarette. The pick-up was parked on the side of Grass Valley Road, a rural stretch of asphalt that leads out of the mining town of Winnemucca into the rural cattle ranching area where Dudley lives and farms.

The pick-up had been driven by Dudley's 17 year-old daughter Mimi, with whom Dudley had been having an argument over a boy Dudley didn't approve of that she'd been seeing in town. Mimi got mad at her dad and punched him in the shoulder. They continued shouting at one another as they drove back to to the ranch, and Mimi eventually pulled over the truck after her dad said he wanted out.

That's what Dudley Hiibel was doing that May evening in 2000: standing on the side of Grass Valley Road smoking a cigarette, his elbow resting on the rolled-down passenger window, talking with his daughter.

Then the police arrived.

Deputy Lee Dove of the Humboldt County Sheriff's Department came on the scene - siren a-wailing - in response to a domestic violence report. Someone saw Mimi arguing with her dad and thought it had come to blows. The witness said that he saw "a man with a black cowboy hat" who "slugged the female". Dove was there to investigate the report.

Everything that happened next is all on videotape... you be the judge.

If you think that the first thing Deputy Dove would do on the scene would be to make sure the 'slugged female' was all right, you would be wrong. Deputy Dove never asked or even looked at Mimi until she had been thrown to the ground face-first and handcuffed.

But that comes later in the story.

Rather than investigate the complaint, Deputy Dove (who has twice had evidence he collected suppressed by the court) instead began to demand Dudley Hiibel show his ID. Eleven times Dove demanded Dudley show 'his papers'. Dudley asked a simple question: why?

"Because I'm investigating", said Dove.

"Investigating what?" Dudley asked.

"I'm investigating an investigation" was Dove's non-reply.

Eleven times Dove demanded Dudley's ID. And when the Deputy decided Dudley wasn't "going to cooperate", he cuffed, then tossed him in the back of his patrol car.
And It Didn't Stop There

Meanwhile, Dudley's daughter was watching the encounter between her dad and the Law from the cab of the pick-up truck. You can hear her screaming "Nooo" as her father is being handcuffed.

Another policeman, a Nevada state trooper by the name of Merschel, was on the scene and was holding the door of the pick-up truck shut so that Mimi couldn't get out. Screaming, she finally forced the door open only to be thrown face down into the hard dirt by the side of the road by Trooper Merschel.

The video is almost too painful to watch at this point. A second trooper climbs on top of Mimi and he and Trooper Merschel brutally pin 17 year-old Mimi to the ground and slap on the cuffs.

With Dudley Hiibel arrested for refusing to show ID and his daughter Mimi beaten and in handcuffs, Deputy Lee Dove now comes over to talk to Mimi and 'investigate'.

The Aftermath

Dudley Hiibel was charged with Domestic Battery, Battery, Acts Which Constitute Domestic Violence, and Obstructing/Delaying A Peace Officer. As there was no battery or domestic violence involved, the only charge that was left was Delaying A Peace Officer. By refusing to show Deputy Lee Dove his ID, Dudley was fined $250.00 . He's appealling it all the way to the United States Supreme Court.

It is this very charge that is now coming before the U.S. Supreme Court on the 22nd of March. The question before the Court is this: Did Dudley's refusal to show ID give Deputy Dove the probable cause needed to arrest him? Or is it the Constitutional right of every American to just say 'no' when asked to produce 'the papers'?

Mimi Hiibel was hauled-off to juvenile detention and charged with resisting arrest. In court, her father asked the judge a simple question: what charge was Mimi arrested for resisting? The case was dismissed.

Video Link:

http://papersplease.org/hiibel/video.html

Website Link:
http://papersplease.org/hiibel/facts.html

Holo · 02-21-2004, 09:05 PM

I was told the same thing at 16 in 1988 in Virginia. I didn't have my walker's ID on me that day as I am prone to losing and forgeting small items even now and they threatened to arrest me per this law that requires you to have identification on you. They didn't but they said they could, and I'm sure Hiibel will get off since they had nothing but speculative evidence of DV and so will the cops so as to not undermine the law to the public.

The shadow of 9-11 has been and is going to be the vehicle that continues to erode our freedoms. LEA doesn't want to see objections and non-cooperation, they want obedience. Cops are more scared than ever after things like 9-11 and Hank Earl Carr happening. It's only going to hurt our freedoms more as time goes on.

macmanmike6100 · 02-21-2004, 09:50 PM

First of all, we should all by now realize that we live in a police state. Of course, it's far from what is seen in the Middle East or less-civilized countries. However, I think that our freedoms are clearly being eroded bit by bit, especially since September 11. A New Yorker myself, I hate to see that horrendous tragedy used to justify police brutality (and I consider this a case of police brutality).

Secondly, it should be every American's right to say refuse to produce identification...and every American's right to accept the consequences. In the end, hopefully, justice will prevail. In a situation like this one, I think it is clear that the officer should have given cause for demanding identification. Indeed, if he were truly investigating domestic violence, he should have checked on the girl first - something he did not do.

Every individual, including officers, should be ensuring that the power bestowed upon police officers by the public do not abuse it.

Lebell · 02-22-2004, 01:36 AM

There is no law that says you have to carry ID with you (unless you are driving) and I believe any such law is unconstitutional.

Anyway, the legal briefings part of that site is very good and it will be interesting what the SCOTUS says.

Strange Famous · 02-22-2004, 01:51 AM

What sentence did the police receive for beating a handcuffed 17 year old girl? I would be very disappointed at anything less than 10 years imprisonment. I havent watched the video, its too big for me to dl on my dial up, but I am going with the text of the article - the article clearly states not just that the girl was cuffed, but that she was also beaten up by the two police.

Astrocloud · 02-22-2004, 08:07 AM

You'll have to excuse my lack of a comment above... I am split on this issue. The cop demanding the ID seemed nice enough and seemed to follow all the guidelines that every cop in America follows. He was polite but didn't give the 'suspect' any information on his investigation (thus the "investigating an investigation" line).... There are reasons that cops do this -most notably to prevent criminals from having the knowledge of what the cop knows. This is a tactic.

So if you watch the video and compare it to anything else you see on "Cops" (the tv show) -Deputy Dove seems justified in cuffing and stuffing Hiibel. I mean domestic violence is a serious crime in America -cops should have the leeway to investigate.

(I'm not going to comment on the cops taking down that little girl. To be perfectly honest it pissed me off to see that and it's not the point of the Supreme Court case.)

However, this whole "investigation" runs headway into my belief that government should preserve the right not to be stopped and searched without a warrant (or at least a reason).

On the other hand -One should note that since

Quote:

Mimi got mad at her dad and punched him in the shoulder.

-that Dudley was the victim of domestic violence here. Not all domestic violence victims really want to press charges against their attackers....

If this sounds confusing it's because I really can't make up my mind about what's best.

filtherton · 02-22-2004, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
What sentence did the police receive for beating a handcuffed 17 year old girl? I would be very disappointed at anything less than 10 years imprisonment. I havent watched the video, its too big for me to dl on my dial up, but I am going with the text of the article - the article clearly states not just that the girl was cuffed, but that she was also beaten up by the two police.

Here in america, when cops do violate the rights of the people they generally get put on "paid administrative leave" (paid vacation) while the department(clearly an objective investigator

) looks into the allegations. As you can imagine, cops can quite literally get away with murder.

Not that i'm saying that all cops, or even more than one-fourth of the police in america are corrupt, power hungry bastards. Just that those who are so inclined can pretty much do whatever they want and get away with it if they do it right.

Esen · 02-22-2004, 09:42 AM

H12 · 02-22-2004, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Astrocloud
You'll have to excuse my lack of a comment above... I am split on this issue. The cop demanding the ID seemed nice enough and seemed to follow all the guidelines that every cop in America follows. He was polite but didn't give the 'suspect' any information on his investigation (thus the "investigating an investigation" line).... There are reasons that cops do this -most notably to prevent criminals from having the knowledge of what the cop knows. This is a tactic.

So if you watch the video and compare it to anything else you see on "Cops" (the tv show) -Deputy Dove seems justified in cuffing and stuffing Hiibel. I mean domestic violence is a serious crime in America -cops should have the leeway to investigate.

(I'm not going to comment on the cops taking down that little girl. To be perfectly honest it pissed me off to see that and it's not the point of the Supreme Court case.)

However, this whole "investigation" runs headway into my belief that government should preserve the right not to be stopped and searched without a warrant (or at least a reason).

On the other hand -One should note that since

-that Dudley was the victim of domestic violence here. Not all domestic violence victims really want to press charges against their attackers....

If this sounds confusing it's because I really can't make up my mind about what's best.

Astrocloud, you've made the most sense to me yet. I agree with ya whole-heartedly here.

Kaos · 02-22-2004, 07:46 PM

Adding to what Astrocloud said, the guy repeatedly refused to co-operate and even asked to be cuffed and taken to jail.

About the girl though, she was probably asked to remain in the vehicle (normal procedure) and she forced he way out and appeared to run. Basically, she hit the cop with the truck door, and that's assault. Running is considered resisting. The cop grabbed her arm and brought her down and kept her down.

This could have gone a lot better if Dudley would have just dropped the "Take me to jail" crap and tried to explain what was going on. And the cop could have let the ID shit go until he knew the situation was ok.

Astrocloud · 02-23-2004, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaos

she forced he way out and appeared to run. Basically, she hit the cop with the truck door, and that's assault.

I watched the video twice and didn't see this...

raeanna74 · 02-23-2004, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaos
[B Basically, she hit the cop with the truck door, and that's assault. Running is considered resisting. [/B]

The cop slammed the car door in her face the first time she tried to open it. Also she had nothing to "resist" at that point. Supposedly she should have been the victim and they should have let her come out and talk before they arrested the guy. The victim should have gotten to tell her story before they even tried to interrogate the "assaultant".

I didn't think it was too big of a deal but after watching the video it makes me so mad. There are plenty of other REAL criminals out there and this cop is going to give other cops a bad name as being overzealous and a prick. I've met plenty of good cops but smartass ones that won't even explain why they want your ID aren't good ones. With as much Identity theft as is out there today you should be able to ask for a good reason to show your ID's. If you don't get a good reason then you should have the right to refuse. Grrr I hope those cops get made an example of. They need to at least be willing to explain WHY they want an ID. If you've done something illegal or even if it is suspected. The guy didn't even say that he had a report that there had been physical assault. He could have at least said that much.

Phaenx · 02-23-2004, 09:40 AM

Your liscense is government property, and refusing to hand it over when asked by an official is against the law.

It's not because Orwell 911 or because Bush and Ashcroft are the real terrorists, that's the way it's always been.

Obey an officer when he tells you to do something.

Astrocloud · 02-23-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx

Obey an officer when he tells you to do something.

Is that government by the people and for the people? Are we slaves for anyone with a badge?

Iliftrocks · 02-23-2004, 10:20 AM

Bullshit my license is gov't property. Hell the government is OUR property. By the way it isn't against the law not to carry ID. We're supposed to be able to travel anonymously and when we ask a cop about charges/or intent, he's supposed to answer.

OBEY!! you mindless drones

filtherton · 02-23-2004, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx

Obey an officer when he tells you to do something.

Otherwise, in the interests of protecting your civil rights, he might hafta violate your civil rights.

water_boy1999 · 02-23-2004, 02:15 PM

I didn't think this would evoke as much emotion as it had from watching the video clip.

I failed to see that these cops did anything wrong. AT ALL!!!! The first cop was very calm in asking the guy for his ID. He had every reason to ask for it as he was responding to a DV call. This jackass deserved to get thrown in the back of the truck, He was being a total dick, not respecting the police, etc.......where do you people get off thinking your rights are being taken away when you give a cop a reason to cuff you? It seemed very obvious to me that this guy was making every effort to give the cops a hard time, and when they are responding to a call, of course they are going to suspect you are up to something when you are acting the way this guy was.

Secondly.....where the heck was this infamous "beating" people are referencing? I saw a girl trying to push her way past a cop who was keeping her from the situation her father was unfolding with the other officer. The cop by the truck door was trying to keep the situation from becoming even more volatile, so it appears he asked her to stay put. She forcefully bursts through the truck door. The officer had no choice but to restrain her.

Now, the part where I get really mad! With all due respect, where do some of you get off justifying the girl or guy's actions against the police, saying it is their right? What if the girl was doped up on PCP and had a knife? She jumps out of the truck and slashes the cops neck? Come on people......if the guy simply respected the cops wishes by providing the proper ID, or, calmly told the officer that he could not produce an ID, this would not have happened.

What beating????? I never saw anything more than a police officer try to restrain a young lady after she bursts through a door to get in the way of a possible volatile situation.

A few more comments: Why should the first cop check the girl first? He walks into a situation where the man came towards the officer. He had no choice but to talk to the man first to see what was up. The man immediately starts acting like a jackass so the cop had to deal with that first. Also, I have to find it, but there IS a law that requires you to have ID if a peace officer asks for one if you are 18 or older. I recall learning that back in high school when I was taking my driver's test.

Moral of this story: Don't be a dick! Respect authority. They are here to "protect and serve".

Plan9Senior · 02-23-2004, 02:43 PM

Ok, anybody that is speaking negatively about these cops did not watch the video. The old man was completely being a dick and not being cooporative. The cops were called to the scene because somebody reported a domestic fight, so asking for identification is completely called for. As far as the 17 year old girl, well I don't care who you are, you cannot try to freak out and run towards an officer who is arresting somebody. The officer by the car held the door and was preventing her from complicating the arrest. Throwing her on the ground was probably unnecessary but she needed to be subdued due to the fact she was freaking out yelling and trying to open the door when the cop obviously was telling her not to.

My $.02 is that I hope this disrespectful man (who most likely hit that girl anyhow based on the story) has to pay the fines and I hope the girl learned a lesson that it is a lot better to stay calm and respect authority than to throw a tantrum.

water_boy1999 · 02-23-2004, 04:13 PM

plan9, my sentiments exactly!

Lebell · 02-23-2004, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
Your liscense is government property, and refusing to hand it over when asked by an official is against the law.

It's not because Orwell 911 or because Bush and Ashcroft are the real terrorists, that's the way it's always been.

Obey an officer when he tells you to do something.

No no no and NO!

You see, there is a little thing called the Bill of Rights. It's in a document you might have heard of, The Constitution.

In it is a bunch of things that the government aka "cops" cannot do, including harassing you for no reason. This includes asking for identification.

The only question in this particular case is whether or not the police officer had probable cause to detain the gentlemen. Since he didn't even bother to check on the supposed "victim" before starting his demands, my position is "no".

And being a dick is not illegal, even to a cop.

Evil Milkman · 02-23-2004, 05:43 PM

I don't know law enforcement protocol, but I would think that they would check on the "victim" first before arresting the guy. Sure, they got a call on it, but I believe that they could've handled the situation much better. But then we all wouldn't have something to discuss, now would we? ;p

MovieNut · 02-25-2004, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by water_boy1999
......if the guy simply respected the cops wishes by providing the proper ID, or, calmly told the officer that he could not produce an ID, this would not have happened.

Moral of this story: Don't be a dick! Respect authority. They are here to "protect and serve".

When I watched the video, the cop asked Hiibel if he had ID, and Hiibel responded "no". Here's a quote of the transcript found here:

D: You've got any identification on you?
H: No, ------------ why should I have an ID? Why do you want me to...

Hiibel told the Deputy he did not have ID. The resulting conversation was bordering on harassment by the deputy. Said deputy continued to ask a question, 11 times, which had already been answered. 11 times. Answered the first time. That's beyond rude. That's abusive and harassing. Don't tell me the deputy was being polite and professional. He was being way more a dick than Hiibel. Hiibel was facing a dickhead cop. That's somewhere between intimidating and frightening.

Upon being informed that Hiibel didn't have ID, he sh/could have asked name and address & tried to verify. Done same with 17-year-old driver. Should have checked whether the (17 y/o) driver was carrying a driver's license. Then after confirming ID's, the deputy should have checked with the 17-year old as to the situation, whether there was any abuse, etc. Police procedure may vary by locale, common sense is the same.

But this whole, cuffing the old man, and then two officers wrestling the girl to the ground and cuffing her was excessive force. These guys need something between suspension w/out pay pending an investigation, and to find another line of work.

When Hiibel was in the back of the car going "big man..." over and over, man, if you don't feel the same way, or empathize as a father, go find some cheap flight to some current facist nation-state.

Oh wait, apparently that's Nevada.

Cops have way, way too much power. And too many abuse that power. It's a well-known stereotype.

The feds seize assets and never return them. They torch compounds where families live.

Church · 02-25-2004, 08:33 PM

I admit they probably didn't handle the situation properly, but I don't think that they went way out of line on it. The guy wasn't co-operating, so its his own damn fault. As for the girl, I don't think they should have arrested the girl, she did nothing and was obviously horrified by the situation. But about the guy, he could have just co-operated, shown them the ID, and got it over with. If he didn't have any ID, then he should have told them that.

I may not be seeing the whole picture, but the man did not seem co-operative at all. Just telling the cops that you're being co-operative doesn't make it so. He told him he was doing an investigation, and that right there is a reason enough. The guy even asked to be arrested, so what's the big deal here?

tricks · 02-25-2004, 11:00 PM

Hiibel was arrested for not cooperating and then charged with battery. He was pretty cooperative about being arrested. The deputy never gave cause for his "investigation." He was the one being uncooperative. Hiibel -asked- to be arrested. There is just no basis that I can see for him to have been charged with any crime. Sure, take him to jail. Find out who he is and what happend. Actually "investigate." But, the charges are ridiculous.

As for the daughter, she came out of the truck, a deputy threw her to the ground, kneeled on her back, and handcufed her. Is this any way to treat the "victim" of an alleged crime? She wasn't running away. She answerd the deputy's questions. I never heard anyone tell her to stay in the truck. She was being physically restraind from getting out. Did she disobey any commands the deputies gave her? What was she resisting? She's certainly a victim of battery now....

At least they were white. No race card to play.

Jam · 02-25-2004, 11:55 PM

umm right why would he get in shit he said he had no id... if he had no id and he wasnt driving then the cop should stick it

maybe this cowboy deals with police on a regular basis ... for example truck drivers often talk to cops and they dont act all afraid and shit this guy was not being a dick he just didnt take the cops shit.

allthough... it says the daughter was driving and yet she came out of the passneger side.. maybe this made the cop think the guy was driving.. but once you say you have no id what can they do

now that ive seen the whole video i like how the girl acted probably something like id do "fuck you!! "

timalkin · 02-26-2004, 01:17 PM

I can't believe that this is even an issue up for discussion.

The police officer was conducting an official investigation. He was trying to determine who he was dealing with by obtaining I.D. from the male subject. The subject absolutely refused to cooperate. That is obstruction of justice or something similiar.

The police officer didn't need to check on the female subject first because she was obviously in a somewhat healthy condition by sitting upright in the truck and talking to the male subject.

The female subject was restrained because she might have a knife or a gun concealed somewhere on her body. Would you want some unknown person to run up to you while they are acting irrationally and screaming? There was no excessive force involved. She flew to the ground on her own accord. She's lucky she didn't get sprayed.

If this case went to the Supreme Court in 2000 or thereabouts, it should have been resolved by now. Can someone find the results?

These officers acted very professionally and in no way abused their power. Many of you have the attitude of "Fuck tha police" but you will be the one getting fucked in the county jail if you do not conduct yourself like a proper citizen.

Church · 02-26-2004, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by timalkin
I can't believe that this is even an issue up for discussion.

The police officer was conducting an official investigation. He was trying to determine who he was dealing with by obtaining I.D. from the male subject. The subject absolutely refused to cooperate. That is obstruction of justice or something similiar.

The police officer didn't need to check on the female subject first because she was obviously in a somewhat healthy condition by sitting upright in the truck and talking to the male subject.

The female subject was restrained because she might have a knife or a gun concealed somewhere on her body. Would you want some unknown person to run up to you while they are acting irrationally and screaming? There was no excessive force involved. She flew to the ground on her own accord. She's lucky she didn't get sprayed.

If this case went to the Supreme Court in 2000 or thereabouts, it should have been resolved by now. Can someone find the results?

These officers acted very professionally and in no way abused their power. Many of you have the attitude of "Fuck tha police" but you will be the one getting fucked in the county jail if you do not conduct yourself like a proper citizen.

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say but I couldn't come up with the right words. Thank-you.

sprocket · 02-26-2004, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by timalkin
I can't believe that this is even an issue up for discussion.

The police officer was conducting an official investigation. He was trying to determine who he was dealing with by obtaining I.D. from the male subject. The subject absolutely refused to cooperate. That is obstruction of justice or something similiar.

No, the police do not have the right to detain or order you to do anything at all, unless they are arresting you. Its like talking to another citizen; you can refuse anything they ask of you. IANAL, but I dont think his refusing to show ID is any kind of obstruction of justice, he was fully willing to be arrested. Since the cop was investigating a possible crime that the man was implicated in, I'm sure he had all the authority he needed to arrest him. But until hes arrested, its within his rights to refuse anything the cop asks. The cop looked like he was trying to be nice by offering the man a chance to avoid an arrest. He should have just put him in cuffs the first time the man said "arrest me" and he would have made life easier on himself. The cop wasnt being very articulate or clear as to why he was asking for ID, but I think he would have gotten farther trying to talk to a doorknob, than with that Dudley idiot. BIG MEN.. REAL BIG MEN.. BIG MEN.. intelligence just RADIATES from that guy.....

And the girl.. what kind of idiot jumps out like she did and charges the police car? As if shes going to rescue her dad from the police. She did that to herself.

The cop could have handled the situation differently, and, yes, refusing the requests of a police officer is within your rights...but cmon people.. Mimi and her dad have to be two of the stupidest people on the planet.

Reading through this thread though, I am amazed at all the people who think that you just have to bow down and lick a cops boots if they tell ya to.

flamingdog · 02-27-2004, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by water_boy1999
Moral of this story: Don't be a dick! Respect authority. They are here to "protect and serve".

Emphasis on serve. Cops are public servants. You pay their wages, after all.

I've not seen the video, but from what I've read on this thread, I agree the cops ended up in a situation they should have avoided, being professional diplomats. I would know better than to purposely goad a cop to prove a point, though. Blame on both sides.

mingusfingers · 02-27-2004, 02:30 PM

Wow. That sucks. Maybe witness reports getting out of hand.

Reese · 02-27-2004, 02:57 PM

If I was standing outside my car and a cop came up to me for no apparent reason and asked for my ID without giving me a valid reason, I'd refuse too. The cop should have explained why he was there, I haven't seen the video either but the girl did do the wrong thing by jumping out of the truck. The cop had the right to take hold her down and cuff her. Again, I haven't seen the tape but apparently he took her down too voilently. Either way, she would have never been put in that situation if the cop had given them a good reason why he's harassing them.

I have alot of respect for what the police do but they get put in situations like this alot, and sometimes they screw up.

ChrisJericho · 02-27-2004, 11:57 PM

Wow, apparently standing beside your legally parked truck is a crime now.

This reminds me of of one night back in my high school days. Me and a few friends went into a supermarket and bought some food. We came back out and ate it in my truck. After a couple of minutes a police car came into the lot and parked a few rows across from us, with the windshield looking directly at us. Keep in mind that the lot was completely empty because it was around midnight. My friends said maybe we should go, but I said hell no, I legally bought this merchandise and I have a right to be here. After about 20 minutes the cop car eventually started up and drove off.

I have never been convicted of a crime, no one in my family has ever been to jail. I do not hate police, but I do not trust them either. Mr Hiibel is doing the right thing here by contesting the "delaying a peace officer" charge. Personally I wouldn't want to live in a country where you can be arrested without committing a crime.

02-21-2004, 09:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Holo A Real American	I was told the same thing at 16 in 1988 in Virginia. I didn't have my walker's ID on me that day as I am prone to losing and forgeting small items even now and they threatened to arrest me per this law that requires you to have identification on you. They didn't but they said they could, and I'm sure Hiibel will get off since they had nothing but speculative evidence of DV and so will the cops so as to not undermine the law to the public. The shadow of 9-11 has been and is going to be the vehicle that continues to erode our freedoms. LEA doesn't want to see objections and non-cooperation, they want obedience. Cops are more scared than ever after things like 9-11 and Hank Earl Carr happening. It's only going to hurt our freedoms more as time goes on. __________________ I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

02-22-2004, 01:36 AM	#4 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	There is no law that says you have to carry ID with you (unless you are driving) and I believe any such law is unconstitutional. Anyway, the legal briefings part of that site is very good and it will be interesting what the SCOTUS says. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

02-22-2004, 01:51 AM	#5 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	What sentence did the police receive for beating a handcuffed 17 year old girl? I would be very disappointed at anything less than 10 years imprisonment. I havent watched the video, its too big for me to dl on my dial up, but I am going with the text of the article - the article clearly states not just that the girl was cuffed, but that she was also beaten up by the two police. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

02-22-2004, 09:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
Esen TFPer formaly known as Chauncey Location: North East	Bah, __________________ ~Esen What is everyone doing in my room?

02-23-2004, 09:40 AM	#13 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Your liscense is government property, and refusing to hand it over when asked by an official is against the law. It's not because Orwell 911 or because Bush and Ashcroft are the real terrorists, that's the way it's always been. Obey an officer when he tells you to do something. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

02-21-2004, 09:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
macmanmike6100 High Honorary Junkie Location: Tri-state.	First of all, we should all by now realize that we live in a police state. Of course, it's far from what is seen in the Middle East or less-civilized countries. However, I think that our freedoms are clearly being eroded bit by bit, especially since September 11. A New Yorker myself, I hate to see that horrendous tragedy used to justify police brutality (and I consider this a case of police brutality). Secondly, it should be every American's right to say refuse to produce identification...and every American's right to accept the consequences. In the end, hopefully, justice will prevail. In a situation like this one, I think it is clear that the officer should have given cause for demanding identification. Indeed, if he were truly investigating domestic violence, he should have checked on the girl first - something he did not do. Every individual, including officers, should be ensuring that the power bestowed upon police officers by the public do not abuse it.

02-22-2004, 07:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
Kaos Ssssssssss Location: Ontario	Adding to what Astrocloud said, the guy repeatedly refused to co-operate and even asked to be cuffed and taken to jail. About the girl though, she was probably asked to remain in the vehicle (normal procedure) and she forced he way out and appeared to run. Basically, she hit the cop with the truck door, and that's assault. Running is considered resisting. The cop grabbed her arm and brought her down and kept her down. This could have gone a lot better if Dudley would have just dropped the "Take me to jail" crap and tried to explain what was going on. And the cop could have let the ID shit go until he knew the situation was ok.

02-23-2004, 10:20 AM	#15 (permalink)
Iliftrocks Junkie Location: Near Raleigh, NC	Bullshit my license is gov't property. Hell the government is OUR property. By the way it isn't against the law not to carry ID. We're supposed to be able to travel anonymously and when we ask a cop about charges/or intent, he's supposed to answer. OBEY!! you mindless drones __________________ bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

02-23-2004, 02:15 PM	#17 (permalink)
water_boy1999 Fly em straight! Location: Above and Beyond	I didn't think this would evoke as much emotion as it had from watching the video clip. I failed to see that these cops did anything wrong. AT ALL!!!! The first cop was very calm in asking the guy for his ID. He had every reason to ask for it as he was responding to a DV call. This jackass deserved to get thrown in the back of the truck, He was being a total dick, not respecting the police, etc.......where do you people get off thinking your rights are being taken away when you give a cop a reason to cuff you? It seemed very obvious to me that this guy was making every effort to give the cops a hard time, and when they are responding to a call, of course they are going to suspect you are up to something when you are acting the way this guy was. Secondly.....where the heck was this infamous "beating" people are referencing? I saw a girl trying to push her way past a cop who was keeping her from the situation her father was unfolding with the other officer. The cop by the truck door was trying to keep the situation from becoming even more volatile, so it appears he asked her to stay put. She forcefully bursts through the truck door. The officer had no choice but to restrain her. Now, the part where I get really mad! With all due respect, where do some of you get off justifying the girl or guy's actions against the police, saying it is their right? What if the girl was doped up on PCP and had a knife? She jumps out of the truck and slashes the cops neck? Come on people......if the guy simply respected the cops wishes by providing the proper ID, or, calmly told the officer that he could not produce an ID, this would not have happened. What beating????? I never saw anything more than a police officer try to restrain a young lady after she bursts through a door to get in the way of a possible volatile situation. A few more comments: Why should the first cop check the girl first? He walks into a situation where the man came towards the officer. He had no choice but to talk to the man first to see what was up. The man immediately starts acting like a jackass so the cop had to deal with that first. Also, I have to find it, but there IS a law that requires you to have ID if a peace officer asks for one if you are 18 or older. I recall learning that back in high school when I was taking my driver's test. Moral of this story: Don't be a dick! Respect authority. They are here to "protect and serve". __________________ Doh!!!! -Homer Simpson

02-23-2004, 02:43 PM	#18 (permalink)
Plan9Senior Banned Location: Orange County, California	Ok, anybody that is speaking negatively about these cops did not watch the video. The old man was completely being a dick and not being cooporative. The cops were called to the scene because somebody reported a domestic fight, so asking for identification is completely called for. As far as the 17 year old girl, well I don't care who you are, you cannot try to freak out and run towards an officer who is arresting somebody. The officer by the car held the door and was preventing her from complicating the arrest. Throwing her on the ground was probably unnecessary but she needed to be subdued due to the fact she was freaking out yelling and trying to open the door when the cop obviously was telling her not to. My $.02 is that I hope this disrespectful man (who most likely hit that girl anyhow based on the story) has to pay the fines and I hope the girl learned a lesson that it is a lot better to stay calm and respect authority than to throw a tantrum.

02-23-2004, 04:13 PM	#19 (permalink)
water_boy1999 Fly em straight! Location: Above and Beyond	plan9, my sentiments exactly! __________________ Doh!!!! -Homer Simpson

02-23-2004, 05:43 PM	#21 (permalink)
Evil Milkman Addict Location: Illinois	I don't know law enforcement protocol, but I would think that they would check on the "victim" first before arresting the guy. Sure, they got a call on it, but I believe that they could've handled the situation much better. But then we all wouldn't have something to discuss, now would we? ;p

02-25-2004, 08:33 PM	#23 (permalink)
Church Tilted F*ckhead Location: New Jersey	I admit they probably didn't handle the situation properly, but I don't think that they went way out of line on it. The guy wasn't co-operating, so its his own damn fault. As for the girl, I don't think they should have arrested the girl, she did nothing and was obviously horrified by the situation. But about the guy, he could have just co-operated, shown them the ID, and got it over with. If he didn't have any ID, then he should have told them that. I may not be seeing the whole picture, but the man did not seem co-operative at all. Just telling the cops that you're being co-operative doesn't make it so. He told him he was doing an investigation, and that right there is a reason enough. The guy even asked to be arrested, so what's the big deal here? __________________ Through counter-intelligence, it should be possible to pinpoint potential trouble makers, and neutralize them.

02-25-2004, 11:00 PM	#24 (permalink)
tricks Crazy	Hiibel was arrested for not cooperating and then charged with battery. He was pretty cooperative about being arrested. The deputy never gave cause for his "investigation." He was the one being uncooperative. Hiibel -asked- to be arrested. There is just no basis that I can see for him to have been charged with any crime. Sure, take him to jail. Find out who he is and what happend. Actually "investigate." But, the charges are ridiculous. As for the daughter, she came out of the truck, a deputy threw her to the ground, kneeled on her back, and handcufed her. Is this any way to treat the "victim" of an alleged crime? She wasn't running away. She answerd the deputy's questions. I never heard anyone tell her to stay in the truck. She was being physically restraind from getting out. Did she disobey any commands the deputies gave her? What was she resisting? She's certainly a victim of battery now.... At least they were white. No race card to play. __________________ People Are Stupid. People can be made to believe any lie, either because they want it to be true or because they fear that it is.

02-25-2004, 11:55 PM	#25 (permalink)
Jam Junkie	umm right why would he get in shit he said he had no id... if he had no id and he wasnt driving then the cop should stick it maybe this cowboy deals with police on a regular basis ... for example truck drivers often talk to cops and they dont act all afraid and shit this guy was not being a dick he just didnt take the cops shit. allthough... it says the daughter was driving and yet she came out of the passneger side.. maybe this made the cop think the guy was driving.. but once you say you have no id what can they do now that ive seen the whole video i like how the girl acted probably something like id do "fuck you!! " Last edited by Jam; 02-25-2004 at 11:58 PM..

02-26-2004, 01:17 PM	#26 (permalink)
timalkin Addict Location: watching from the treeline	I can't believe that this is even an issue up for discussion. The police officer was conducting an official investigation. He was trying to determine who he was dealing with by obtaining I.D. from the male subject. The subject absolutely refused to cooperate. That is obstruction of justice or something similiar. The police officer didn't need to check on the female subject first because she was obviously in a somewhat healthy condition by sitting upright in the truck and talking to the male subject. The female subject was restrained because she might have a knife or a gun concealed somewhere on her body. Would you want some unknown person to run up to you while they are acting irrationally and screaming? There was no excessive force involved. She flew to the ground on her own accord. She's lucky she didn't get sprayed. If this case went to the Supreme Court in 2000 or thereabouts, it should have been resolved by now. Can someone find the results? These officers acted very professionally and in no way abused their power. Many of you have the attitude of "Fuck tha police" but you will be the one getting fucked in the county jail if you do not conduct yourself like a proper citizen.

02-27-2004, 02:30 PM	#30 (permalink)
mingusfingers Psycho Location: uhhhh	Wow. That sucks. Maybe witness reports getting out of hand. __________________ Still Looking

02-27-2004, 02:57 PM	#31 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	If I was standing outside my car and a cop came up to me for no apparent reason and asked for my ID without giving me a valid reason, I'd refuse too. The cop should have explained why he was there, I haven't seen the video either but the girl did do the wrong thing by jumping out of the truck. The cop had the right to take hold her down and cuff her. Again, I haven't seen the tape but apparently he took her down too voilently. Either way, she would have never been put in that situation if the cop had given them a good reason why he's harassing them. I have alot of respect for what the police do but they get put in situations like this alot, and sometimes they screw up. __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

02-27-2004, 11:57 PM	#32 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Wow, apparently standing beside your legally parked truck is a crime now. This reminds me of of one night back in my high school days. Me and a few friends went into a supermarket and bought some food. We came back out and ate it in my truck. After a couple of minutes a police car came into the lot and parked a few rows across from us, with the windshield looking directly at us. Keep in mind that the lot was completely empty because it was around midnight. My friends said maybe we should go, but I said hell no, I legally bought this merchandise and I have a right to be here. After about 20 minutes the cop car eventually started up and drove off. I have never been convicted of a crime, no one in my family has ever been to jail. I do not hate police, but I do not trust them either. Mr Hiibel is doing the right thing here by contesting the "delaying a peace officer" charge. Personally I wouldn't want to live in a country where you can be arrested without committing a crime. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche