12-11-2010, 09:07 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
|
Entrapment or saving us from terrorism?
This is a question I've had for a couple weeks now, ever since the FBI arrested Mohamed Mohamud for an attempted bombing at Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland (read more here: FBI thwarts terrorist bombing attempt at Portland holiday tree lighting, authorities say | OregonLive.com). For those who don't know, Mohamed Mohamud was a sometimes student at the university I graduated from, so this story is very close to home, and it has been kind of surreal to have this all going on in my own backyard. It's also strange to have people overreact and declare that everyone at the treelighting could have died--um, no, they couldn't have, the bomb was a fake. I've had a lot of problems with the language used in the media to describe this case; take the article I posted above. The headline is "FBI thwarts terrorist bombing attempt at Portland holiday tree lighting, authorities say"--in my mind, the FBI didn't thwart anything; they gave a guy a fake bomb, after all.
There was a piece in the NYTimes wherein AG Holder says that these kinds of stings are necessary to protect the American people from terrorism. Quote:
Share your thoughts, but please remember, this is not in Politics for a reason.
__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
|
12-11-2010, 09:51 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
|
from what i read a few weeks ago, the FBI put a mole into the mosque. He then went about his work encouraging this guy (and others?) to violent jihad and egged this guy on by providing him with the resources to potentially carryout an attack. i dont know how long this went on for.
if the FBI put the thought in his head, then i think its entrapment. If they are creating dramas to keep themselves in a job and to look like they're doing a good job by protecting the citizens of oregon, then i think the FBI has a case to answer for. I just ownder how many seeds they planed before they got a bite. i wonder what those guys that didnt get arrested are thinking. On the other hand if the FBI had previous information and then set up the sting, i see no issues with the arrest and deserves the full force of the law. ---------- Post added at 03:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 AM ---------- snowy, did you go the the cross culture vigil held at the mosque after the fire by any chance?
__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
12-11-2010, 10:20 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
|
Yes, I did. My community is very upset by the fire at the mosque. There was quite a turnout for it. Originally, the plan had been to make a circle of light around the mosque, but so many people showed up that they had to make a circle around the entire block, which was still several people deep in some spots.
__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
12-11-2010, 10:21 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
there are a bunch of questions at the least about this.
first, it's inevitably a political matter because what you make of the fbi actions has everything to do with what you make of this "war on terror" charade. kinda on the same order as what you make of the bombings in yemen. if you're inclined to see the "war on terror" as a legitimate rationale for action, then if you problems with holder's statement of this morning (and what they're about), they're likely to be more narrow than they would be if you don't see the "war on terror" as legitimate. i'm inclined toward the second position. from the narrower perspective, the obvious question is whether this is or is not entrapment. which would make of it the kind of thing that happens all the time in, say, cocaine interdiction efforts where small-time dealers (typically) are set up in "sting" operations that walk the same kind of line---because once you're stung, questions of whether you were a legit target (following on some profile or another presumably) drop away behind the fact of being-stung, and the argument shifts away from whether the operation as a whole is a Problem and onto whether in particular situation x the cops went too far in setting up the conditions that enabled the outcome. i think this kind of proactive operation from the cops or fbi are bound to be problems for that reason, even if you accept arguments about their utility (i don't in the main) and legality (which seems to me questionable, but i'm not an expert). but this is the narrower set of problems. there's a bigger one with the de facto criminalization---or at least bringing-under-suspicion---of folk who fit a particular racial profile and happen to be muslim in the states. and the statement holder made is pretty bush-worthy in it's vagueness. but that'd be political. i seem to have restated the op. ah well. i read this article in the washington post about the same thing: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2010121007763 which highlights several other...um...ambiguities about holder's line. like whether this "reaching out to the muslim community" business actually exists. commentary in the article from folk who are closer than i to the matter.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 12-11-2010 at 10:27 AM.. |
12-11-2010, 01:58 PM | #6 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: New England, USA
|
When someone reports to the police that they know someone is looking for a hitman, the police setup a sting. People are convicted by making the deal with the undercover cop "hitman."
This is an example that I would use to explain the FBI's actions based on what I have read about this story. The guy was willing to commit an act of terror or horrific crime (depending on your political view) and was caught before it could take place. I hope that the FBI/law enforcement continues to protect us in this way. I'll vote "save us from terrorism." |
12-11-2010, 02:06 PM | #7 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
|
from another angle...
you're standing at the box office waiting to purchase your tickets for the knicks game. psssst! comes the call......some guy calls you over ..hey whats up you reply you want to buy some tickets to the game? no thanks...im taking my son to the game and we're still in line yoo bad dude, you could have saved yourself 50% on costs no thanks well think about it..if you want them you can have them right now and you can get out of the cold yeah..sure..ok how much...as you pull out your wallet YOUR UNDER ARREST ASSHOLE! entrapment? is it fair? i dunno.. you decide
__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy |
12-11-2010, 02:48 PM | #9 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
Quote:
If 'thought crimes' are your thing, then you're in the majority of the sheeple of this country.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
|
12-11-2010, 03:16 PM | #11 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
oh bullshit. in case you haven't been paying attention the last decade, the government fucking lies. LIES!!!!!!!. It does whatever it needs to in order to bolster it's argument to the general public. So if you choose to believe the crap that they spew, more power to your sheeple mindset, but all you're doing is furthering the cause of totalitarianism.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
12-11-2010, 03:43 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
Quote:
come on.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
|
12-11-2010, 03:51 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Future Bureaucrat
|
No, I'm trying to say that 'truth' and 'justice' are not black and white, and while I despise government overreaching and government misconduct, neither you nor I are in the position to say that the government entrapped this kid in this case.
In addition, invocations of 'The Government Lies!' doesn't automatically make this a case of entrapment. Do you know how much 'egging on' really happened in this case? Was this a case of, 'here's a bomb, let's sit back and see what ya do with it kid?' or one where law enforcement kept on telling the kid to blow shit up even when the kid expressed reservation? There's a reason why depositions and interviews and discoveries take not hours, not days, but months--it's to bring forth relevant factors like the above to light. Again, as shitty as the government and populace may be, no one can definitively say it was entrapment until they actually see all the evidence. |
12-11-2010, 04:44 PM | #15 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
||
12-11-2010, 06:32 PM | #18 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
|
I can't help but wonder how efficient a use of time it is to write the stories of potential terrorist attacks, make them happen and then swoop in to make arrests when it's probably not a stretch to imagine that there are plenty of folks planning terrorist attacks without the FBI's help.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
12-11-2010, 10:52 PM | #19 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: My head.
|
I'm pretty sure the delinquent would have gone through with it with or without the FBI's help ala VA Tech style or something similar.
All this disdain towards the feds is misdirected. People constantly complain. Why weren't the terrorist plans foiled?? They then complain when they were. I don't understand you people. |
12-12-2010, 02:16 AM | #20 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
he was able to take actions because of??????????
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
12-12-2010, 03:37 AM | #21 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: New England, USA
|
You agree that that he took action to detonate a bomb that he thought would have killed people. If the guys who sold him the bomb were not the FBI and actual terrorists, what do you think would have happend?
This a technique used by law enforcement officials to catch people before real action kills people. It is my understanding that we disagree on whether this strategy should be used or not by law enforcement. Do you have another practical solution that could be used instead of this technique that would be equally effective? |
12-12-2010, 07:41 AM | #23 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
|
Is this just like the police playing undercover prostitutes, drug dealers, and underage kids on-line? The cops play a role, the criminal comes to them to make it happen.
I would say it is entrapment if the FBI said, "do this or someone else will", or "do this or I'll kill your family". |
12-12-2010, 01:15 PM | #24 (permalink) |
still, wondering.
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
|
Yeah, it seems not having something to arrest him for before providing him the means to be arrested is questionable. If he would have acted on his thoughts without their input, they should have only watched until he did. If they had, there'd have been no question of entrapment to sully their quest to save us from terrorism. I think they crossed a clear line by getting involved before anything actionable happened.
__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT |
12-12-2010, 01:51 PM | #25 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
the more i think about it the more difficulty i have not seeing this as entrapment.
i am on my way out, but would be curious if someone could explain exactly what the legal definition of entrapment is....i have a dilletante's idea of it.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
12-12-2010, 02:04 PM | #26 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: New England, USA
|
In criminal law, entrapment is constituted by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.[1] In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informant or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person (see sting operation). So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment Last edited by Nepenthes; 12-12-2010 at 02:35 PM.. |
12-12-2010, 02:31 PM | #27 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
|
NYC does not have anti-entrapment laws.
If a person driving stops to ask someone directions and that person is an undercover hooker, they can and have arrested people for solicitation. As they defend the position that it is about opportunity and it was given and the person took the opportunity.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
12-12-2010, 02:47 PM | #28 (permalink) | ||
Future Bureaucrat
|
Quote:
Oh and...I thought you guys all knew the legal defense of entrapment. Here I was making my case wondering why people didn't understand what I was saying. ---------- Post added at 05:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ---------- Yep: Oregon Statute Regarding Entrapment Quote:
(a) Subjective Theory: That if the individual can show some form of 'inducement' by the government, then the government must show predisposition towards committing the crime (i.e. previous criminal record, initiating contact, etc.) to overcome the entrapment defense. (b) Objective Theory: That entrapment is a deterrence to law enforcement wrongdoing (much like 4th Amendment remedies) and thus, if there is any evidence of LEO inducement, entrapment operates as a complete defense. Etc. etc. Like I said, I want to see all statements made by all parties involved. I would not rush to conclusions. |
||
12-12-2010, 02:50 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
|
They try to use it as a defense and it usually fails. It is up to the judge to determine if there was entrapment. Usually the judge tends to side with the police in NY.
In CA the standards are different where there are laws on the books that prohibit or define certain kinds of situations that constitute entrapment. Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
|
12-12-2010, 03:55 PM | #30 (permalink) |
Sir, I have a plan...
Location: 38S NC20943324
|
I do not have the facts to judge whether this is entrapment, but I do know that this kid pushed a button on a cell phone thinking that it would kill or maim hundreds of people. That rises above the level of a thought crime IMHO.
__________________
Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.
|
12-12-2010, 04:17 PM | #31 (permalink) |
Warrior Smith
Location: missouri
|
If he hit the button, thinking he was going to kill people through this action, then he is guilty and its not entrapment by any means.... If he never got to that point, then its questionable, based IMHO, which is certainly not a legal opinion mind you, on how far he went.....
__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens |
12-13-2010, 05:11 AM | #32 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
Quote:
---------- Post added at 07:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 AM ---------- Quote:
---------- Post added at 07:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 AM ---------- Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
|||
12-13-2010, 08:29 AM | #33 (permalink) | |
Crazy
Location: New England, USA
|
Quote:
For example, I hope terrorists do not get their hands on nuclear material. I want it to be especially difficult for terrorists to trust anyone with nuclear material for sale. This should make it more difficult to source (i.e. limit their means to action) and to identify those that wish to obtain nuclear material illegally. I see sting operations as a key strategy to use in this case. The goal is to deter terrorists from taking action. I am using the definition for entrapment that I found online for the sake of this discussion. I have not gone any further than a quick google search. |
|
12-13-2010, 08:35 AM | #34 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
you are advocating for the ability of the government to create criminals because of their thoughts.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
12-13-2010, 08:40 AM | #35 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
|
Quote:
I don't advocate thought crimes and I don't see that someone thinking of killing someone is an actionable offense. I do see that once they cross the boundary of thinking about it and into the realm of ACTING upon it. Acting upon it is seeking out resources and methods to execute the action. Reading materials about resources and methods still is in the realm of thinking about it. Actually securing the items you need to execute? That's beyond thought. You don't agree?
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
|
12-13-2010, 08:49 AM | #36 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
Quote:
I repeat, the GOVERNMENT provided the items for this individual to attempt his attack.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
|
12-13-2010, 08:54 AM | #37 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
|
The Associated Press: Teen arrested in Oregon car bomb plot led 2 lives
After reading this fairly dry AP recounting of the story, I am left (still) with the conclusion that 'fighting terrorism' in this way is just an exercise and that it doesn't make us safer. Not every person who becomes radicalized is going to be a threat. After all, we have plenty of radicalized white people in this country, too. What's more, they've known about the guy for years apparently and could have simply continued to monitor him. It seems to me that, rather than a legitimate effort to waylay danger, this operation has simply been an opportunity to make a showy arrest on terrorism charges near the holidays. Yay, I feel so much safer.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
12-13-2010, 09:04 AM | #38 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
|
I wonder how much of this stems from being guilty of "worshiping while brown."
I mean, you follow and prod young American Muslims and it's just a matter of time before you find a radical. It's more or less the practice of weeding out the alienated youth of American Muslim society. But instead of finding solutions as to why they become alienated or how to reintegrate them into wider society, they find out ways to criminalize them to neutralize them as "potential threats."
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
12-13-2010, 09:23 AM | #39 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
|
It should be obvious that preventing terrorism by arresting a person who only became a terrorist as a result of your terrorism prevention efforts does't by itself have the net effect of decreasing the number of terrorist attacks.
|
12-13-2010, 09:36 AM | #40 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
|
Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
|
Tags |
entrapment, saving, terrorism |
|
|