ring

When I crave red meat,
I want it raw.

It's much easier to digest, and satisfies my inner carnivore.

It's important for me then, to know where and how it's being processed.

Local organic buffalo/beef farms etc.

When I used to deer hunt, I was well supplied.

I have these cravings about once a month,
especially when the moon is full.

snowy

Same here.

This thread wasn't meant to send the message of "BE VEGETARIAN OR ELSE!" nor was it meant to be preachy. Remember, I am not a vegetarian, nor do I want to be. It was meant to show some of the consequences of eating a diet that contains too much meat, and there ARE consequences.

I'm glad Charlatan mentioned Michael Pollan's guidelines. I try to adhere to those, as I find them easy to follow.

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ring

Personal & environmental health issues are being raised by these programs. Kudos.

"1,000 lb cow weaning a 550 lb calf will need 13 AUM's to sustain the grazing system
13 AUM time 780 lb/AUM equals 10,140 lb of forage, let's estimate 35% harvest efficiency of the forage so the cow will need 10,140 / .35 = 28,971 lb of forage.
If your pasture can produce 3 tons of forage/acre (6,000 lb/acre), then 28,971/6000=4.82 acres/cow

Cross-fencing, supplemental feeding, winter hay, silage, etc. will adjust the number of acres."

Fremen

settie pretty much put my thoughts to paper, so to speak.

I'll go some days where I don't eat meat at all, but there are others where that's all I eat.
Sometimes I crave meat, others I don't.

But for now, I can't get the image out of my head of silent_jay grazing on meat being processed at his job, like they were grapes in a supermarket.

/Hamburger Humpday

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CandleInTheDark

I've never understood how amateur and professional philosophers can choose to ignore our understanding of physical and mental sciences. The theories have science can't be the sole reasoning for what 'ought' to be, but they can provide useful information of what 'oughta's' are best for a mental and physical well-being. I don't think philosophies of men should undermine our health.

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Baraka_Guru

Currently, the scientific "oughtas" are suggesting a largely plant-based diet.

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dlish

i had a good chuckle with this gem. not sure if it was intentional or not

my day without meat does become meanless, as does my meal if i dont get my meat. There's no better feeling that pickle muscle fibres out with a tootpick after a medium rare topside steak.

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Charlatan

Again, it's amazing how many people hear reduce and think abolish. Nobody in this thread (except maybe Aberkok) is suggesting you become a vegetarian. Far from it. As I have said a few times now, I love meat. I don't want to do without it.

What I want is good meat that is reared in a sustainable way. Current industrial practices, from the over production of corn to vast feed lots of cattle, are not sustainable. Yes, it keeps food cheap. But it also leads to outbreaks of e-coli (a direct result of raising cattle on a diet of corn, something their digestive system was not made to handle), environmental degradation and an increased reliance of foreign oil supply. There are many negative externalities that are not factored into the low cost of food at US supermarkets. Eventually those bills are going to come due.

To be clear: this isn't about become a vegetarian. For me, this is about working to move away from unsustainable practices.

Perhaps it's time that the US started to spend a little more money on food.

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Ourcrazymodern?

Mock duck is good.

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Fire

to clarify my position, we are going to run into a hell of a problem, regardless of what the US does or how many people cry over the amount of grain that the cows that we eat with such gusto consume- And that is in fact not a good thing, but it is a necessary thing if we are going to develop anything like a solution to our resource and consumption problems- these are HUGE problems, so large that most of the world simply ignores them or is too busy trying to simply survive... so like every other problem that has ever smacked us in the head, this one is going to, and it will at the least change lifestyles across the globe, even if it does not result in wars and some general chaos... So I see most of the green movement as a futile gesture, more like slapping a bandaid on an arterial wound and telling the patient that he will be fine, than doing ANYTHING that will have a real effect..... But I believe that we are smart and adaptable as a species, if forced to be, and that the coming shortage of resources due to the near inevitable development of a gigantic middle class in both india and china (and a lot of other countries as well) Should force us to adapt and change..... Out of the inevitable bad, I see the potential for good, but only with a lot of bad first...... Oh- as to your idea that we spend a bit more on food, I would rather see that money spent on developing more sustainable crops and more healthy, yet still cheap foods.... hell, most of us Americans are fat due to two things- 1- we are reared in such a low impact environment that we have little or no exercise to begin with, and get less as we age- 2 we eat cheap food that is horrible for us- would it be impossible to develop cheap food that is not so horrible???? really, it seems that with our ridiculous amounts of available funding, we should work toward that, for self preservation if nothing else.....

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Charlatan

I don't disagree with this.

The funny thing is, the US already spends the least amount of money on food as a percentage of income than any other nation. It hovers around 8-10%. It would be lower if the trend of eating outside of the home hasn't grown to about 50% of that expenditure (I could be off on that 50% but it's what I recall... the important fact is that since the 60s Americans have increase the amount of money they spend on eating outside the home). Canada is around 14% of food as a percentage of income while many other nations are somewhere between 20% to 50% food as a percentage of income.

The US can afford to spend a little more on better food. It will save the system a lot of money in negative externalities (such as health care and environmental damage).

That said, I don't see the political, personal or any sort of will or interest in making these changes.

Cheaper is better and hang the consequences!
Consume less meat?! When they pry my knife and fork from my cold dead hands!



---------- Post added at 02:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 PM ----------

A couple of good TED Talks on these issues.

Graham Hill: Why I'm a weekday vegetarian | Video on TED.com

Mark Bittman on what's wrong with what we eat | Video on TED.com

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Fire

I should point out that I absolutely love stir fried tofu- and like you I do not see the will to make cheap food healthy- while we are at it, a lot of Americans are barely hanging on economically, telling them to spend more on food will get a less than enthusiastic response, and that is why it amazes me that no one has fought for this- cheap, bad for us food is easy, but I do not believe that it is impossible to make healthy food that is cheap and tastes good, it simply has not been on the freaking radar for anyone to try- maybe now would be a great time to do so..... before we are all so fat that we have to roll to the local mcdonalds for dinner......

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lurkette

Not to open a whole other can of worms, but how much of this is related to the agricultural subsidies that keep our food artificially cheap?

And thanks for the TED talks - I will definitely give them a look-see. (I love TED!)

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Baraka_Guru

The economics of food is a huge factor. In the U.S. in particular, you have a situation where corn is produced in vast amounts to the point where they must find various uses for it to maintain a market (HFCS, feedlots, etc.). At the same time, you have the subsidies on many foods, making them far cheaper than they seem. I read somewhere that, when all is said and done, the price of a pound of hamburger is 50% of what it would be without subsidies. That's just one example.

Here is food for thought:
Farm subsidies not in sync with food pyramid - Fitness- msnbc.com



PCRM >> Good Medicine Magazine >> Health vs. Pork: Congress Debates the Farm Bill >> Autumn 2007

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Anxst

This is exactly me. Although buy nothing day would be hard, as for the last year I've bought all my produce for the day by walking to the grocery store and buying it for immediate use.

Still, though. A meatless day isn't exactly hard to do.

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ducatiguy

I dont know why but when i hear of things like Meatless Mondays, it makes me want to go the other direction.

Therefore I am adopting a Double Meat Monday diet. Thats right the Carl's Jr Western Bacon Cheeseburger would suffice for Tues-Sunday but not on Mondays. Needs to be the Double Western Bac Cheeseburger.

snowy

Hope you enjoy the eventual CHD that comes with such a meal.

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JStrider

I'm dating a vegetarian, when we cook for each other its always vegetarian... so I usually have meatless or mostly meatless weekends.

dont feel the need to designate a day for not eating meat... I usually go several days during the week without any meat.

why specify a day for something thats a normal occurrence.

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Baraka_Guru

I can see a parallel between this and the following:

Let's say there's a movement to make Monday a "Turn Off the TV and Read" Day. Let's say the movement is meant to help young people and older people alike with their literacy. Let's say it is a way to help support local and national culture. Let's say it's sold as a rewarding experience that cannot be offered by TV, and that studies show that too much TV and not enough reading is bad for you. Let's also say that Americans watch 4 hours of TV a day on average.

The "other direction" in this case would be to adopt a Double TV Day, where one would go ahead and watch 8 hours of TV instead of the usual 4.

In other words, indulge if you like...but you're going to miss out on the ultimate point of such a movement. That is, however, your choice to make. In my opinion, 8 hours of TV in one day would be akin to peering into a void, or perhaps into the death of the human spirit.

I do like the sound of a double cheeseburger though. But it's not like I eat a hamburger 7 days a week though. It would be an odd thing for me to eat meat once a day for 7 days straight. I probably have meat on average 4 to 5 days a week.... maybe 4 to 10 servings total in a week. [It varies: it wouldn't be a big deal to me to go a whole week without meat.]

If I were normally eating 2 or 3 servings of meat a day, I think the idea of a double cheeseburger would seem rather different. In situations where I do end up eating 10 servings of meat in a week—which is rare—I tend to lean towards wanting meatless meals for a while. I go in cycles. I get "meat overload" at times and will go essentially vegetarian to balance things out.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

snowy

It isn't a normal occurrence for a lot of people in the United States, and I think that's one of the reasons for this campaign. I think the general purpose isn't necessarily to designate a certain day to be meatless for everyone, but rather to raise awareness of the consequences of meat consumption, especially meat consumption such as it is in the United States. I think designating a day like Monday with a catchy name like Meatless Monday encourages businesses to get on board more than individual people. Given the difficulty my SO sometimes has finding stuff to eat when we go out (not in our town, but elsewhere) I really welcome any effort to encourage restaurants to put more meatless options on their menus.

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Eilonwy

I think another point of a campaign like this is to help those that may want to eat less meat for various reasons, but think their only other option is "rabbit food". If they hear that local restaurants and such are participating in 'meatless Mondays', perhaps they'll check it out and perhaps it'll help them do what they may already wish to do but are too lazy (ie, go buy a vegitarian cook book or something) to do on their own.

m0rpheus

My first thought is "Meatless Monday" why the hell would I want to do that?

But when I think about it, here's the thing I do eat meatless meals from time to time and enjoy them BUT I do love meat. A lot. Why would I want to make my Monday worse than it is already by intentionally not having meat?

Also as far as restaurants having Meatless Monday, the truth is I just wouldn't go. If I want a veggie meal from a restaurant I'll go to a place that I already go to on a fairly regular basis and is vegetarian and so I know they can do it right.

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Lindy

B_G, "I read somewhere" is not up to your usual standards. As a person who grew up with the sight, sound, and smell of hamburger on the hoof, I just find this hard to believe. Would you point me in the general direction of the source?

Lindy

Charlatan

Here's an article about how subsidies effect the price of meat: Unfair fare: Why prices for meat from small local farms are too high :: The Ethicurean: Chew the right thing.

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Baraka_Guru

I wasn't sure I could find the source again. I did the research on it 10 years ago.

Charlatan's link is a good start.

You could also do your own research. Have a look at ground beef prices and then compare it to the prices of grains, vegetables, and fruit (per pound, say). Do you see anything odd? Do you realize how many resources are required to produce just one pound of beef vs. a pound of grain vs. a pound of vegetables?

Now take a look at organic produce. Chances are it isn't subsidized at all.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

surferlove007

I never thought about how much meat I ate until this thread...I guess while I was in Lubbock I ate it occasionally in the dorm. This year things have been considerably different in regards to my eating habits. I eat pretty much every meal with Matt which requires a meat or fish of some sort. He is not keen on going without. Not to mention we enjoy cooking steaks together, curry, or whatever else that happens to come on the menu. When it comes to the kind of cut of meat...well that's a new subject entirely.

Wes Mantooth

Why not just adhere to a sensible diet? "Sensible Diet Saturday"? Of course meat is bad for you if you're inhaling it by the pound every time you open your mouth, its wasteful and unhealthy...as are most things when you over do it. Eat a balanced diet with reasonable (ie small) portions and voila, you're eating healthier and making the planet a better place. It seems like a bizarre thing to get hung up on in my opinion.

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FuglyStick

More Moo for me!!!

Ayashe

There is a lot of focus on CAFOs and the harmful effects they have on the environment. While I do not disagree that CAFOs are rather disgusting I believe I would be doing a huge injustice to make a statement that CAFOs are the only aspect of industrial farming that negatively impact the environment. Toxic fertilizers, insecticides, herbicides, all running off into our waterways polluting our in ground and surface waterways. Pollution which will generate damaging blooms of oxygen-depleting microorganisms that disrupt ecosystems and kill fish. Nitrogen compounds following the Mississippi from Midwestern farms degrading coastal fisheries and creating a large "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico where aquatic life cannot survive. And for what? Just like antibiotic overuse, these insecticides and herbicides have over time become less and less effective from overuse.

Of course, we could all increase our fish intake right? This is supposed to be healthier. Sadly, most of the fish in North American markets come from fisheries which are more or less cesspools of toxic sludge will produce the same issues of other farming techniques. Overcrowding, overuse of antibiotics and antimicrobials and other treatments to produce "healthier fish". Care to order a side of Mercury with your salmon? Eating as little as one fish sandwich could provide 40% of the safe maximum of mercury exposure. One Canadian study found that a single serving of farmed salmon contains three to six times the World Health Organization’s daily intake limit for dioxin and PCBs. Mmm, yum. Of course we could switch to wild caught, right? Wild caught fishing would be much better for the environment, trawling the bottom of the waterways, bringing up blooms of algae, choking out life of other creatures, damaging our coral reefs. Overfishing of certain species leading to the depletion of creatures dependent on them for survival.

Of course we could switch to all organic, right? I know one woman who has a daughter who is allergic to nearly everything. In hopes for better health, her mother has opted to purchase all organic for this one daughter. For that child alone, she spends over $400/month on groceries. Is this manageable for the average family? Of course even then, one must put on their thinking cap and plow through the many misleading phrases used in the Organic Movement. "Natural", "All Natural", "Made with Organic Ingredients", yes even "Free-range" and "Free-roaming" are misleading. Of course, is it really better for the environment having been shipped 2,000 miles?

Instead of meatless Mondays, I am led to believe that to truly make an impact it must be Meal-less Mondays. Or perhaps Anorexic August, or even Abortion April. There are too many people on this planet, consuming like locusts.

This is not limited to food, people. How many people take things to the repair shop these days? No, we throw it out instead. We need the latest and greatest in technology and instead of upgrading with a part or fixing what is broken, we toss out the entire object and get new. Do we really need to be plugged in to everything all the time? Do you really need that new cell-phone? Can't you walk the three blocks to the store when you only need butter? Do you really need a new car, or could you just take it in for a tune-up?

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snowy

Ayashe, a simple solution to the problems you've focused on is: grow your own. Of course, this isn't practical for many people; however, this idea is taking off even in very urban areas (rooftop gardens). While I have space for raised beds, I don't have the funds to put them in. The solution: container gardening. Obviously, with this, you cannot grow all of your own food in a small space, but you can grow some of it, which is better than nothing at all, right?

Organic is also not the only answer; I'm not sure we can raise all of the food this planet needs to feed people via strictly organic methods. I too find that many people don't bother to critically think about the labels on food. I think perhaps we would benefit most from increasing the health literacy (i.e. how to read labels, what terms are clearly defined by the government, etc) of people. The anecdote you provided seems to be clear evidence of a lack of understanding as to what organic can and cannot do. Further, your anecdote shows the lack of understanding that is out there about food allergies (please don't get me started).

Many of the things you discussed in your post are why we try our best to eat what's grown within 100 miles of home. This also means eating seasonally. That's not much of a hardship--hothouse tomatoes taste okay, but not nearly as good as an heirloom in the peak of tomato season.

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Ayashe

Snowy, even rooftop gardens are not possible where I live. Most apartment complexes do not offer their tenants that opportunity as they prefer to avoid liability and damage. It is a worthwhile suggestion, though unlikely.

I do agree that many people not only do not know how to read labels, but are completely unaware of how to cook. We unfortunately live in a world where most people seem to prefer to cook from a box or can. While I could list each and every ingredient that fills me and those I cook for, most people would be describing cans and boxes of substances I would not describe as food. Some people, simply don't care to put forth any effort.

I am uncertain how you come about your decision on my lack of understanding about allergies as I have barely discussed the topic. My point was not the allergies so much as the expense her mother incurred. For most families, that would be unaffordable. I have yet to know an Immunologist or well, any doctor, who has recommended an organic or meat-free diet (unless the allergy was to meat itself) for allergies-sake. If you would like to talk about RAST testing,immunodeficiency diseases, IgE levels, proper infant feeding etc, that would be incredibly off-topic for this thread. Presume much?

I love farmer's markets. They are an enjoyable experience. Unfortunately again, they are not available year-round here. Depending upon the market, they are no guarantee that the items sold there are local. Believe it or not, many have tried to pass off food items that have been grown elsewhere. Deceptive practices can happen everywhere, even in your own neighborhood. While some have cracked down on such behaviors, it is still possible. Another problem is that while there may be many farmer's markets nearby, some of them have ridiculous hours. 2-4pm on Tuesday, does not work for me. Going farm to farm for my shopping, simply is not practical.

I believe you completely missed the point of my original post. We leave our footprints on this earth whether we eat as omnivores, vegetarians, vegans. It is a false sense of security to state blindly that eating meatless or reducing your meat intake is going to so easily lesson the problems we are causing our environment. To do so, farming techniques overall must change, not simply at the feedlot. Unfortunately, I am not convinced that it is even possible to do so at a level that will make a difference and produce enough.

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snowy

It wasn't YOUR lack of understanding about food allergies I was pointing out; rather, the mother of the allergic child. Typical food allergens are present in a food regardless of whether it's conventionally grown or organic. Presume much?

I've spent several months now researching the topic of obesity in this country, and you're precisely right on the score that most people either a) lack the skill to cook, or b) don't care to put forward the effort. I'd add a third category of people who do not have time to cook, or rather think that cooking would take too much time. I have developed a school-based intervention aimed at combating some of these myths about cooking. My hope is to someday acquire grant funding to make this school-based intervention a reality, so that I can help adolescents learn how to cook and read labels, among other things.

As for reselling at farmer's markets, yes, that's all too believable, unfortunately. Good markets generally have rules about resellers, but good markets aren't available everywhere. I'm fortunate to live in a part of the country where the farmer's market scene is taken very seriously and resellers are not allowed; some established farmers are allowed to resell produce, but only under very strict guidelines.

I suppose I am more optimistic, and think that after a while, these small changes must add up to something. Besides, the food tastes better to me and I like talking to my farmers directly about what they've grown.

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LordEden

I think this article belongs here, because of the talk on how food is made and the fact that I don't feel like necroing the other "I HATE MEAT! FUCK OFF, I LOVE STEAK!" thread.

Anthony Bourdain (Chef, writer, traveler, tv show host, my personal hero, and all around kitchen GOD), puts my thoughts on this issue down on paper a lot more gracefully and with more finese than I possible could.

Anthony Bourdain: My War on Fast Food

The rest of the article is a great read (as is anything he writes), check it out.

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snowy

Great post, Eden. Thanks for sharing.

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m0rpheus

Good post Eden. Bourdain, who's writing and TV show I love, has had a long running hatred for the McNugget so this really just seems like a continuation of that.

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Jetée

It's The Red Button Principle.
(also can be referred as youth encounters 'DO NOT ENTER' signage, stops to ponder, ignores blatant warning, then promptly proceeds in, thus ending the world/getting a spanking.)

I quoted the three most sensible quotes thus stated, because while perhaps for the greater good, this proposed "solution" is just hopeful inanity. How is going meatless on any Monday good for my well-being, let alone for the good of my environment, my country, and the global economy? Come every Tuesday, I'm quite sure the meat that I didn't eat yesterday will still be where it initially was; it just doesn't disappear, regardless of whomever it was that implicitly stated it would, or else what's the purpose of this designated day of selective fasting? I'm all for raising awareness to wherever it may be warranted, but this exactly the opposite of how you go about setting these types of plan in motion - by telling others of which you have no stake in, nor they, you, how to live their lives.

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snowy

The point, Jetee, as already stated, is to get the conversation started. Given the dialogue here, I would say it's been fairly successful.

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Jetée

Not to get snippy here, but exactly whose point are you touting - yours, or the engineers behind this movement? (when you say the point of all this was to get the convesation started.)

Is this to what you are referring when you said it was previously stated that this thread's premise was built upon the foundation of simply a "talking point":
I doubt this whole 'meatless monday' thing was meant as just an ad awareness sort of thing, and it doesn't go as far as it should if we need to extract deeper meanings and intentions from the facade of this propaganda towards reducing personal meat consumption. It doesn't show good sense to propose one sort of thing as a "titular" for your cause, then have it mean something else altogether, buried deep within the subcontext.

I get it - there is a reason why we, as the consumers need not eat and participate in a dietary-stasis of shoveling meat into our faces on a daily basis; but, as has been previously voiced by a fair number of others here, in the way this was presented, it has failed considerably as a good way to "educate others on the harms of meat production/consumption/regulation and whatever else".

Even as you say, this might just be a small step towards a better tomorrow and better, healthier forms of meat for our personal enjoyment than what is currently available now, I still do not see how, conceivably, having a sparse coupling of groups reducing their intake and buyership of meat products helps the system in any way. Sure, they can easily supplement the proteins, vitamins and calories found in meat for something else, but is this the entire point (whether it be yours, or these meatless mondays guys)? I just really like to get to the root of solving whatever may wrong with things, (in this case, the way various livestock are converted into meats, sold, packaged and bought by the community) though it never really gets to the root of how to solve this: the actual production and distribution process. It's just a glaze-over "solution" if this actually reaches any good portion of our North American population to actually comply to this aim; it never gets anywhere or anything deeper than some huddled masses agreeing not to eat sandwiches or porterhouses every single second day of the week. What good is that?


And whatever you or others may think, trying to bombard consumers with this sort of 'skewed advertisement' for better living projects upon the viewing audience that they are, at least, in some part ignorant of how to take care of themselves, and do not properly know how to eat sensibly. Not all may see this so negatively, but again, as seen previously remarked here, it rubs certain people in a very wrong way at how this whole campaign portrays itself.

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snowy

Well, Jetee, I'm not going to bother responding to you, because you know what? You rub me the wrong way.

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Ourcrazymodern?

Aw, c'mon, it's Wednesday. Bon appetit!

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