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Old 06-30-2010, 09:12 PM   #81 (permalink)
 
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You are what you eat

Ok, so let's see - you are what you eat as they say...
So if cows eat grass, then cow = grass.
Therefore if I eat cows, technically, it's just being a more efficient vegetarian,

Jokes aside, I am a total meat eater, and I am overweight and admit to it. I do however get "meat overload" every now and then and eat a ton of vegetables in a sitting to even things out. And then sometimes I'll fast for 3-5 days just to clean the ol' system out. Funny how I notice this thread just as the thought crosses my mind if I could go meatless for a week. I was actually planning out the meals in my head.
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Old 07-01-2010, 04:55 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I eat a paleo/low carb diet and am healthier for it. Eating a vegetarian or vegan is arguable worse for your health, makes us poorer from government subsidies and is hard on the environment. Our current grain farming methods depend upon oil, and soil erosion to be possible and are unsustainable.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:26 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chicory View Post
I eat a paleo/low carb diet and am healthier for it. Eating a vegetarian or vegan is arguable worse for your health, makes us poorer from government subsidies and is hard on the environment. Our current grain farming methods depend upon oil, and soil erosion to be possible and are unsustainable.
I'm a bit unclear on your position. Are you saying that your diet doesn't consist of food dependent on farm subsidies and grain? If so, what does your diet consist of? If you're living off of tubers, nuts, berries, fish, and wild game, that's pretty cool.

I also want to point out that vegan/vegetarian diets are far better than the average North American diet in terms of use of subsidies and the impact on the environment. This is mainly because of the amount of grain required to raise meat vs. eating the grain directly. ...not to mention the impact of waste byproducts created by animal producers.
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:12 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
I'm a bit unclear on your position.
Considering it beautiful that some plants provide obviously for their offspring, as all plants do do: Does thinking it's mostly unconsciously symbiotic, as opposed to consciously employing other living things for sustenance make us any more or less innocent as vegans?
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:37 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:09 PM   #86 (permalink)
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i dont think anyone's spared a thought for the farmers here.

sure, we can go meatless for a day. We could go a week if we really tried. But will it make a difference? Not really. This world is all about the power of the market.

what do i mean? Well, the farmers have a set overhead usually that they must cover in order to make a budgetted profit. You reduce the turnover for them, and they'll be forced to automatically increase the cost/kilo of meat. The less meat thats on the market, the more expensive it's going to be. Thats the law of the market.

On the other hand, i do recall a few years ago now when petrol prices shot through the roof, some groups tried to influence the buying habits of motorists and the selling prices of the service stations by not buying petrol on a certain day .

What motorists did instead was buy the same amount of petrol the day before or the day later. It made no difference in the consumption of petrol because people did what they usually do and service themselves with whatever resources they need to get by everyday.

My point? people will buy whatever meat they want/need and Meatless Mondays will die like a rack of lamb ribs..with veggies of course.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:21 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dlish View Post
On the other hand, i do recall a few years ago now when petrol prices shot through the roof, some groups tried to influence the buying habits of motorists and the selling prices of the service stations by not buying petrol on a certain day .

What motorists did instead was buy the same amount of petrol the day before or the day later. It made no difference in the consumption of petrol because people did what they usually do and service themselves with whatever resources they need to get by everyday.
But, you see, this is not the same thing. It would be like the motorists buying ethanol or some other alternative fuel instead of regular gasoline for their day's usage. Meatless Mondays is about replacing your Monday's meat with plant-based food, not deferring your Monday's meat intake to another day, whether the preceding day or the following day or whenever.

It's not like most people are going to do Monday by avoiding their usual 1 lb. of meat only to eat 2 lbs. the next day, or in advance eat 2 lbs. on Sunday...or even split it up and eat 1.5 lbs. on Sunday and 1.5 lbs. on Tuesday. They're "skipping" meat that day and replacing the calories with plant-based food. It's not like motorists stockpiling gasoline that they will burn anyway; it's replacing one energy source with another.

And about the laws of the market: no one knows these more than lobby groups and governments. They seem to know how to keep the price of animal products artificially low for consumers via subsidies....at least in North America. This is what I discussed in post #54 above. Tax payers are essentially paying to have the price tags on meat show up lower than it really should be. Even vegans pay for that wonderful service.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:22 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I did, dlish (as well as in aberkok's thread on vegan substituism, though in different words, yet still towards the same coincidental aim) but was quickly told off because I just expressed my opinion wrongly (or too longly).
Quote:
I just really like to get to the root of solving whatever may wrong with things, (in this case, the way various livestock are converted into meats, sold, packaged and bought by the community) though it never really gets to the root of how to solve this: the actual production and distribution process. It's just a glaze-over "solution" if this actually reaches any good portion of our North American population to actually comply to this aim; it never gets anywhere or anything deeper than some huddled masses agreeing not to eat sandwiches or porterhouses every single second day of the week. What good is that?
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Old 07-30-2010, 02:50 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jetée View Post
It's just a glaze-over "solution" if this actually reaches any good portion of our North American population to actually comply to this aim; it never gets anywhere or anything deeper than some huddled masses agreeing not to eat sandwiches or porterhouses every single second day of the week. What good is that?
Well, if you cut out meat consumption 4 days per month, that equates to around a 13% reduction.

Now consider this:
Quote:
After an interview with In Defense of Food’s Michael Pollan further detailed the eco-impact of cattle, [journalist Dan] Harris added: “You don’t have to give up your cheeseburgers, but if we all reduced our meat consumption by just 20 percent, it would be as if we all switched from regular cars to hybrids. It would also be good for our health.”
Take a Bite out of Climate Change Meat Industry

So basically, if you start by reducing your meat consumption by 13% with Meatless Mondays, and then take it a step further by reducing it by yet another 7% (which is about another 2 or 3 days per month), you are doing the equivalent of switching from your regular car to a hybrid (so says Harris/Pollan).

If you're not familiar with Michael Pollan, he's also the author of The Omnivore's Dilemma. The book examines how humans, as omnivores in a modern world, have such a wide selection of food to choose from, thus creating a dilemma: what to eat? His following book, In Defense of Food, helps answer the question.

The simple answer?

"Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

'In Defense of Food' Author Offers Advice For Health : NPR
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Old 08-10-2010, 08:35 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Perhaps this piece will answer some questions for folks about "why Meatless Monday."

Thanks to SecretMethod70 for the link.

Campaign Aims To Make Meatless Mondays Hip : NPR

Quote:
There's a movement afoot aimed at changing the way we eat one day a week.

The Meatless Monday campaign is backed by public health advocates, chefs and suburban moms who want to tackle the problems of cholesterol and heart disease. One risk factor for these chronic conditions is consuming too much saturated fat — the type of fat found in meat.

Pushing The Message

Sid Lerner, 79, learned the art of persuasion during his 50-year advertising career on Madison Avenue. One of Lerner's most successful campaigns was the "Squeeze the Charmin" campaign. In the commercials, grocery shoppers can't keep their hands off the irresistibly soft Charmin toilet paper.

Lerner has a good laugh thinking back to those commercials. Making something dull seem irresistible was a leap, but he says he basically faces the same challenge selling the concept of Meatless Monday. He has to turn the mundane idea of "moderation" into something irresistible.   click to show 
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Old 08-10-2010, 05:56 PM   #91 (permalink)
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I am biased toward reduced meat intake, but I do enjoy eating meat as well.

People that want to eat meat every day regardless of health, environmental, and
economic benefits are clearly not the target audience here.

"Meatless Monday" can be an effective way for those that are interested in changing their lifestyles get started. It doesn't really seem like a huge change, and the catchy slogan evokes the marketing of "Taco Tuesday" or "Pizza Fridays." Anyone that hates tacos is obviously not going to eat tacos because it's Tuesday, but those that enjoy the occasional taco may be inclined to eat one because of the marketing. It's a reminder that you enjoy something, and while it may not be an everyday sort of thing, it can be a once-a-week plan.

Some may argue that there's no reason why it should be held on one specific day of the week, but specifying can increase solidarity for those involved. It can be a major lifestyle change for people to reduce their meat intake, even if it is something they desire to do. So, those that participate in "Meatless Mondays" can have support from their friends and neighbors that are also trying to eat less meat.

At worst, the campaign will make people think about what they are eating, and at best, it will help people that wish to eat less meat change their lifestyles one step at a time.
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:44 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Well, if you cut out meat consumption 4 days per month, that equates to around a 13% reduction.
Towards and regarding solely an individual's dietary habits, this may be true.
But, this also plays into quite a bit of assumptions, the most prominent being that perhaps each person's diet is uniformally the same, as well as static.

The 13% reduction figure is based on a pie figure of statistics that, ideally, may not even exist in the real world. Days change, circumstances change, our cravings and wants for food change. If we were rationed two ounces of meat to eat every month, and told to eat it for that day, or throw it away the next, then fine, I might believe the reduction, but does it serve the better towards everyone if they be told to not eat meat products on a weekly routine schedule (Lenten-observers aside)?

Also, I wasn't talking about the solution in terms of people, B_G, but they are free to eat and follow these regulations if they feel it "helps" some obscure cause of theirs, but I was more talking in terms of nationwide meat production, as well as consumption. It won't change unless the price / availability factors were to shift dramatically.
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:53 PM   #93 (permalink)
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My figures were more or less to demonstrate in a measurable way how a modest reduction of meat intake can have a direct impact.

Also, you raise a good point about national consumption patterns vs. individual considerations. If the U.S. (and Canada, actually) were to eliminate or equally redistribute food subsidies, the average American would have a greater incentive (or less of a disincentive, where applicable) to eat a larger proportion of plant foods on a daily basis.

Also, education is factor. How educated is the public with regard to the effects of a diet too high in cholesterol and saturated fat and too low in fibre and essential vitamins and minerals? Not to forget about diets too high in calories as well.
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:21 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
Also, education is factor. How educated is the public with regard to the effects of a diet too high in cholesterol and saturated fat and too low in fibre and essential vitamins and minerals? Not to forget about diets too high in calories as well.
Not very.
From a paper I wrote on the subject of adolescent obesity:

"A lack of health literacy skills and nutritional education is a major factor in adolescent obesity. Sanders, Shaw, Guez, Baur, and Rudd (2009) found that parents with insufficient health literacy skills were less likely to read nutrition labels. Furthermore, another study found that almost 75% of parents of overweight children thought that their children were underweight or of normal weight (Sanders, 2009)."

I didn't address the issue of prevalence of poor health literacy in my paper, but the article cited by Sanders, Shaw, Guez, Baur, and Rudd (2009) does. You can find a link to it here: Health Literacy and Child Health Promotion: Implications for Research, Clinical Care, and Public Policy -- Sanders et al. 124 (3): S306 -- Pediatrics The article states that "at least 1 in 3 US adults has limited health literacy."
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:34 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Snowy, that's appalling. I had my suspicions, but that's....sad.

I had my own interesting experience with my SO being away for 2.5 weeks. For a good chunk of that time, I decided to eat "like a bachelor": frozen dinners, canned dinners, hot dogs, nachos, etc.

The amount of sodium found in these products is disgusting. Even in the kid's food. Even in the "healthy choices"! How does a company put 900 mg of sodium into a 280 calorie "meal" and call it healthy?

I can't seem to recall if there was always so much sodium in these things. But my tastes have likely changed. One of these Asian-styled entrees had a sauce that I could best describe as a spicy salt sauce. I wish I were exaggerating. They could seriously have put half the amount of sodium and it would have tasted far better.

That's just sodium (and it's everywhere).

Needless to say, I'm moving back to "normal." I just bought a tub of baby spinach, some broccoli slaw, some raw almonds, and some raisins. ...some unsweetened almond milk...12-grain bread...almond butter.... you get the picture.

Unfortunately, few Americans appear to be.
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:53 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Being ignorant and/or evasive to complete nutritional health is not directly correlational to one's body being in poor health.
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:05 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Being ignorant and/or evasive to complete nutritional health is not directly correlational to one's body being in poor health.
This statement is vague.
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Old 08-17-2010, 10:27 PM   #98 (permalink)
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I've been meaning to eply to the above since the day after, but I kept forgetting about it.

Keeping it short: last week, around Thursday or Friday, I caught a small segment of Public Access Television's TV 411. One of the small segments they ran was about nutrition, as well as how to better educate one's self when reading the ubiquitous black-and-white "Nutritional Facts" chart, found on nearly all prepackaged foods (by law). The point I was making, in contradiction to your oddly-superlative statement previously that such a statistic was appalling to your faculties, had to do with the 'common sense' practice put into use by a fair portion of the North American population.

Just because someone doesn't know that an average man's daily recommended intake of proteins should be 60-65 grams, (I didn't even know this "supposed" fact until last week) while a woman's should be closer to 50 grams per day, well does that make them any less worse for the wear, or unhealthier? It can stand to reason that it might be of benefit to some to keep this in mind, but not everybody needs to know this trivial concern of allotments, and certainly doesn't need to abide by them.

For the most part, in my idealized picture of North American consumers and regular eaters: I think that if they are alive, can smile and seem generally well-fit, as do most of the thousands of people I see in a given day, then I assume that they can fend for themselves, and a have relative knowledge of the two rules: "eat a li'l bit of everything" and "it's fine in moderation".
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Old 08-18-2010, 12:11 AM   #99 (permalink)
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I agree Jet, I certainly think having a working understanding of basic nutrition is helpful, but beyond that how important is it or should it be to the average person? Looking at what you're eating with just a little common sense can go a long way towards being healthy and I think most people could do that, they either don't care to or can't. I'm absolutely clueless about how many calories I should be eating in a day, how many servings of vegetables, meat or carbs I should be eating, I don't think I've read a nutrition label in years but I seem to be doing okay, I'm healthy, of normal weight, my blood pressure is great...

People could be much healthier as proper diet and exercise is so stupidly simple but I find it baffeling why people either can't or wont.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:31 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jetée View Post
Keeping it short: last week, around Thursday or Friday, I caught a small segment of Public Access Television's TV 411. One of the small segments they ran was about nutrition, as well as how to better educate one's self when reading the ubiquitous black-and-white "Nutritional Facts" chart, found on nearly all prepackaged foods (by law). The point I was making, in contradiction to your oddly-superlative statement previously that such a statistic was appalling to your faculties, had to do with the 'common sense' practice put into use by a fair portion of the North American population.

Just because someone doesn't know that an average man's daily recommended intake of proteins should be 60-65 grams, (I didn't even know this "supposed" fact until last week) while a woman's should be closer to 50 grams per day, well does that make them any less worse for the wear, or unhealthier? It can stand to reason that it might be of benefit to some to keep this in mind, but not everybody needs to know this trivial concern of allotments, and certainly doesn't need to abide by them.
I don't think it's all that important to calculate numbers and allotments. I think it's important to know what you're eating. The benefit of nutrition labels is that it's at least a snapshot of what's going into your body. This includes macro- and micronutrient values as well as specific ingredients. Much of the problem with diet-related factors regarding obesity is that people are either apathetic or oblivious to the fact that much of what they eat probably consists too much of corn and soy.

Quote:
For the most part, in my idealized picture of North American consumers and regular eaters: I think that if they are alive, can smile and seem generally well-fit, as do most of the thousands of people I see in a given day, then I assume that they can fend for themselves, and a have relative knowledge of the two rules: "eat a li'l bit of everything" and "it's fine in moderation".
This could work to an extent. However, looking at someone is one thing and seeing "what's under the hood" is another. The fact remains that diabetes, heart disease, and cancer rates in North America are out of whack compared to the rest of the world, and a lot of that has to do with the Western diet. The problem is, not enough people are eating "a li'l bit of everything." Too many people are eating too narrowly: meat, corn, wheat, and soy. The emphasis on these things in various forms (including flour, syrup, and oil) is what's crowding out much of the other stuff: mainly other plants with far more nutrients.

To tie this back to the Meatless Mondays thing: it's about breaking patterns and habits. To think consciously about what constitutes a good meatless meal requires thinking differently than usual. Eating in moderation is good, as is eating diversely. However, not enough Americans are doing this. I read recently that something like 17,000 new "food products" are created every year in the States. Which is interesting. It's not that they're discovering new types of natural foods to grow. It's something else entirely, and Americans are literally eating it right up.
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:48 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Very useful and informative post.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:16 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Very useful and informative post.
What was informative or useful about it?
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:46 PM   #103 (permalink)
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The reactive responses to this thread are a clear indication that there will likely be no meaningful changes to reform society and address issues like environmental degradation (in my lifetime, if ever). After all, how will politicians ever make changes when any thought of someone or something affecting your lifestyle brings up such a negative response.. How dare anyone suggest that I make a mild change to my lifestyle in order to limit the impact of my diet on a shared environment. That is ultimately the issue, yes people have the right to do what they want...but it can be selfish when collectively everyone pays the price for your decisions (whether healthcare spending because you eat ground beef with every meal or the destruction of the Amazon rainforest in order to clear grazing ground for cattle).

I particularly like the NRA comparison and the thought of the overreaction of the a hypothetical "watch twice the tv day just to show people I refuse to listen to them."

Ah well, I try to go one day a week without eating meat, seems logical for my own health at the very least.
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:57 PM   #104 (permalink)
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What was informative or useful about it?
I'm not sure if he's into meatless spam.
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