Did An Episode Of 'South Park' Inspire New York Car Bomb? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 07:12 AM

I brought up something similar in another thread which was OT so I thought this story might revitalize that discussion. What do you think about Muslims that live in the US, yet seem to have nothing but jihad on their minds?

Do you agree with the opinions expressed here A Letter from an American Airlines Pilot whether the letter is authentic or not.

Did An Episode Of 'South Park' Inspire New York Car Bomb? - Los Angeles News - LA Daily

Islamic group that warned creators of 'South Park' denies involvement in Times Square bomb plot

abu talhah al amrikee posts - Crimesider - CBS News

Check out the 3rd video down, did they inspire this attempted car bombing?

Revolution Muslim

I saw the guy in that video on the news, it makes me sick to see these people in NYC spewing their hate.

snowy · 05-03-2010, 07:30 AM

I'll admit that I only looked at one of the links you posted above, DaveOrion, because by and large the remainder of them aren't from reputable news sources. Additionally, the one link I did look at, from CBS News, admitted that all of this is speculation.

Speculations such as the above only give those with jihad in their minds more reason to embrace jihad, and they encourage segregation, unreasonable fear, and bigotry against Muslims.

We shouldn't assume or speculate anything--we should wait to see what the evidence tells us.

Lucifer · 05-03-2010, 07:40 AM

This is a sort of 'Life imitates Art' idea. It certainly makes you wonder about things like this. I've never seen that episode of South Park, but I was recently watching "Armageddon" in the opening scenes where the meteorites hit New York City, always makes me wonder if some domestic terrorist saw this, wrote to Bin Laden and said, "hey, here's an idea...." Also the idea of using planes to attack building was written by Tom Clancy, in the book "Debt of Honor" where an embittered Japan Air Lines pilot flies his Boeing 747 directly into the U.S. Capitol building wiping out nearly the entire United States presidential line of succession including the President, most of Congress, nearly all of the Cabinet, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and all nine Supreme Court Justices.

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 07:42 AM

Thus far, I think that the evidence is pointing to Times Square being the work of the Talibubba, not the Taliban. We don't need no illegals takin' jorbs from us good, decent white terrorists!

But on topic, I don't think much about "Muslims that live in the US, yet seem to have nothing but jihad on their minds?" Honestly, they're entitled to their opinions. It's sort of the foundation of the country. We've got enough native-born folks here at TFP that are ready for an armed insurrection against the government, and I don't have anything against their opinions either. I don't agree with them and I don't particularly like those opinions, but I don't spend much time or energy thinking about them outside of threads where they're relevant.

Lots of folks, dark skinned and light skinned, have it in for the US government and the American people. Let's all remember that the second largest terrorist act on US soil was the work of one of our homegrown dickweeds. And that lots of their ilk have been slithering around recently.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 07:54 AM

The link I posted to that Muslim revolutionary site had a page set up explicitly to incite violence based on that South Park episode. There was a picture of Theo Van Gogh's dead body at the top of the page. The linky is dead now, much like Van Gogh.

http://www.revolutionmuslim.com/inde...d=52&Itemid=95

snowy · 05-03-2010, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Thus far, I think that the evidence is pointing to Times Square being the work of the Talibubba, not the Taliban. We don't need no illegals takin' jorbs from us good, decent white terrorists!

But on topic, I don't think much about "Muslims that live in the US, yet seem to have nothing but jihad on their minds?" Honestly, they're entitled to their opinions. It's sort of the foundation of the country. We've got enough native-born folks here at TFP that are ready for an armed insurrection against the government, and I don't have anything against their opinions either. I don't agree with them and I don't particularly like those opinions, but I don't spend much time or energy thinking about them outside of threads where they're relevant.

Lots of folks, dark skinned and light skinned, have it in for the US government and the American people. Let's all remember that the second largest terrorist act on US soil was the work of one of our homegrown dickweeds. And that lots of their ilk have been slithering around recently.

Bingo.

From the NYTimes' latest article: Owner of Explosives-Packed Nissan Found in Times Square Is Located - NYTimes.com

Quote:

Investigators continue to review surveillance footage from Saturday evening, when the car bomb was found, that showed a white man who appeared to be in his 40s walking away from the area as he looked over his shoulder and removed a layer of clothing. Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. seemed optimistic in comments he made Monday morning. “We have some good leads," Mr. Holder told reporters in Washington.

You can also see pictures of the surveillance footage at the link above.

The_Dunedan · 05-03-2010, 08:11 AM

The problem with the Talibubba theory is that an Al Qaeda affiliate has already claimed credit. The potential bomber's race has little relevance in this regard: Balkan and Chechen terrorists have been working with AQ in Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Caususes, and central Europe for several years now. Several of the "Iraqi" terrorists captured on video beheading US and other foreign contractors beginning in 2004 appeared to be distinctly light-skinned, leading to speculation that the Iraqi insurgency had been penetrated by Chechen operators, which caused quite a fright back when Shamil Basayev was still running the show. And of course, lots of Afghan and Iranian folks are quite fair-skinned as well.

Not discounting the Talibubba theory, but some other factors need to be considered as well, as noted above.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Thus far, I think that the evidence is pointing to Times Square being the work of the Talibubba, not the Taliban. We don't need no illegals takin' jorbs from us good, decent white terrorists!

But on topic, I don't think much about "Muslims that live in the US, yet seem to have nothing but jihad on their minds?" Honestly, they're entitled to their opinions. It's sort of the foundation of the country. We've got enough native-born folks here at TFP that are ready for an armed insurrection against the government, and I don't have anything against their opinions either. I don't agree with them and I don't particularly like those opinions, but I don't spend much time or energy thinking about them outside of threads where they're relevant.

Lots of folks, dark skinned and light skinned, have it in for the US government and the American people. Let's all remember that the second largest terrorist act on US soil was the work of one of our homegrown dickweeds. And that lots of their ilk have been slithering around recently.

While Oklahoma City & 9/11 were both terrorist attacks I think the reasoning behind them is significant. McVeigh's actions were directly related to Waco, the intrusion of the gov into religious beliefs. The 9/11 attacks were directly related to radical Muslims who believe all infidels should be converted or die.

Whoever was responsible for the recent bombing attempt doesnt change the fact that radicals still want us (US) gone.

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 08:37 AM

Dunedan: conceeded. We just don't know who did it. No one can rule out the Taliban, but a light-skinned middle-aged man certainly does insert the Talibubba into the equation. We'll see who it plays out, but were I jaded enough to bet on the outcome, I'll go with the home-grown variety. Perhaps it's a frustrated stage actor with a grudge against an old boyfriend. As we've seen historically, claiming responsibility for an action doesn't necessarily mean that the claimer was responsible.

Dave, if a terrorist kills me for whatever rationalisation s/he theorizes, I'm still dead. I'm sure there are jihadis in the US. Honestly, until they're actually here in front of me doing something, I'm not going to spend too much energy worrying about them. I've got better things to do. And the jihadis are simply another placeholder in a long line of folks that think the US and all its citizens are evil - where was the Rev. Phelps on Sunday?

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 09:00 AM

Well it bothers me, it bothers me that it bothers me. There is a Muslim population here in Nashville, I see them occasionally and I cant help but be suspicious. I dont like feeling that way but then again I cant help it. Thats why I posted that link to the pilots letter.

Quote:

If the true teachings of Islam proclaim tolerance and peace and love for all people, then I want chapter and verse from the Koran and statements from popular Muslim leaders to back it up. What good is it if the teachings in the Koran are good, and pure, and true, when your “leaders” are teaching fanatical interpretations, terrorism, and intolerance?

You may think, "well thats your problem Dave". I think its everyones.

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 10:21 AM

I'm pretty sure that dlish hasn't killed anyone. And he's been invited to stay at my house (logistics kept that from happening but doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned). I'm not worried to the point that I'll willingly and enthusiastically expose my kids to him. And he's a fairly devout guy.

Some leaders teach fanatical shit. The vast majority of others don't. Then again, a lot of white Babtist ministers used to teach that it was just fine to lynch a black man in Mississippi. I've heard that from many first person accounts.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 10:43 AM

Cmon, you know him which makes that more than slightly unfair. I know plenty of people of various races, colors & creeds and have exposed my daughter to them, which wasnt my point and I'm sure you know that.

This isnt about something that happened long ago in the South (more very minor Southern Bashing?) I'm taking about something that is happening right now, as we speak.

How exactly am I supposed to know...........ya know, nevermind.

Would you let that guy in the video spend the night at your house, expose your kids to him?

dlish · 05-03-2010, 11:00 AM

these sort of stories really peeve me off to no end. Every time something happens, i cringe and i pray that it's not a looney muslim that's done something stupid. because that's what it really is. deep down i really do hope that a muslim dude didnt do this. any time a muslim hits the headlines, it's his religion that gets the most attention, not his mental capacity.

It pisses me off even more when some members here seem to think that muslims seem to have 'jihad on their minds'. i'm not even sure if you said that with a straight face. do you even personally know any muslims or associated with a muslim family or had them over for dinner? my guess is no. i dont think your comment even warrants a response to be honest.

dunedan, im sure you already know this, but the chechens were infiltrated by the wahabi ideology brought in by the jihadis in the same way that the jihadis infiltrated iraq after the fall of saddam, and the balkan war in the 90's. we all know that saudi is the source of wahabism all over the world, it produced OBL, but politicoil puts a damper on anything the US can do..until the oil runs out of course.

Dave, i think your pilot needs to do some more reading on one of the most influencial islamic scholars of our time, Hamza Yusuf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

here's what he had to say after 9/11

Quote:

The worst enemies of Islam are from within - Hamza Yusuf

A Time for Introspection
"The worst enemies of Islam are from within", writes American convert scholar of Islam, Hamza Yusuf.
This article first appeared in Q-News, Europe's largest Muslim magazine.

On September 11th our lives changed forever. We witnessed an act of aggression that in many ways does not have a parallel in past or present times. There are several elements that make this act unique, from the use of civilian planes as weapons of mass destruction to the attack on the most widely recognized skyscrapers in the world. Nor have we ever witnessed the terrible indictment of Islam as having a part to play in such a heinous crime.

Muslims were seen rejoicing in some parts of the world in a display of what can only be called shamaatatul 'aadai', which is rejoicing at the calamities of ones’ enemies. This is something explicitly prohibited in Islam and was never practiced by the Prophet of Mercy, upon him be prayers and peace. We have seen images since of American flags burning to further arouse the wrath of a nation filled with grief, confusion and anger. Again, Islam prohibits the burning of flags according to the explicit verse, “Do not curse [the idols] of those who call on other than Allah, thus causing them to curse Allah out of animosity [toward you] and without knowledge.” This verse prohibits even the cursing of false gods because of the consequences. We have also seen image after image of Muslims with beards and turbans, who by all outward means look religious and pious - but are they really?

Unfortunately, the West does not know what every Muslim scholar knows; that the worst enemies of Islam are from within. The worst of these are the khawaarij who delude others by the deeply dyed religious exterior that they project. The Prophet, peace be upon him, said about them, “When you see them pray you will consider your own prayers insignificant. They recite the Quran but it does not exceed the limits of their throat.” In other words, they don’t understand the true meanings. The outward religious appearance and character of the khawaarij deluded thousands in the past, and continues to delude people today. The Muslims should be aware that despite the khawaarij adherence to certain aspects of Islam, they are extremists of the worst type.

Our Prophet said, peace be upon him, “Beware of extremism in your religion.” Islam is the middle way between excess and neglect. Zealots are a plague upon religion. These extremists come in two types. The first is a reactionary extremist who falls far right of a center-point. Reactionary extremists do not want any pluralism; they view the world in melodramatic, black and white, good and evil terms. They are good and anyone who opposes them is evil. From among the Muslims these are people who ‘excommunicate’ any Muslim who fails to share their interpretations of the Quran. They use takfir [denouncing a Muslim as an unbeliever] and character assassination as a tool for marginalizing any criticism directed at them. They are used often by the Western media in order to scare simple people and cause them to believe that Muslims are insane. Unfortunately, our communities provide them with much fuel to fire their incendiary flames.

The second group are radical extremists, who while they are almost identical with the former group, differ in that they will use violence to further their cause. They are actually worse than the first. They believe like every nefarious secret society before them that ‘the end justifies the means.’ They see any act as acceptable if it will further their ‘cause.’ This is blatantly anti-Islamic for a number of reasons.

Firstly, Islam’s means must reflect its noble ends. Any means that does not embody the core truths and ethics of Islam is not from Islam and thus denounced as aberration. Secondly, Islam is not a secret society of conspirators who no one knows what they are planning. Islam declares openly its aims and objectives and these are recognized by good people everywhere as pure and congruent with their own wisdom and traditions. In the case of many of these extremists even the non-Muslims recognize that no religion of any weight could sanction the taking of innocent lives. The Quran says that the Torah and the Gospel have guidance and light and that the Quran came to fulfill these prior dispensations. Good Christians and Jews who believe in God and live ethically upright lives have no frame of reference for such acts, so how could these acts be from Islam, which confirms what has come before it?

Thirdly, they are invariably people who have never taken a true spiritual path to God and nor have they studied the humanities. I can almost guarantee that you will not find a scholar of poetry among the whole vile lot of these people. They have no true knowledge of Arabian culture, which is centered in the idea of futuwwa; a word akin to the western word chivalry. The terrorists posing as journalists who killed Ahmad Shah Masud [Afghan Northern Alliance leader] were cowards of the worst type. Killing themselves was not bravery but stupidity, but killing one’s enemy in such a way is the worst form of treachery and the Arabs have many poems denouncing such type of people.

Our real situation is this: we Muslims have lost theologically sound understanding of our teaching. Islam has been hijacked by a discourse of anger and the rhetoric of rage. We have allowed for too long our mimbars [pulpits] to become bully pulpits in which people with often recognizable psychopathology use anger - a very powerful emotion - to rile Muslims up, only to leave them feeling bitter and spiteful towards people who in the most part are completely unaware of the conditions in the Muslim world, or the oppressive assaults of some Western countries on Muslim peoples. We have lost our bearings because we have lost our theology. We have almost no theologians in the entire Muslim world. The study of kalaam, once the hallmark of our intellectual tradition, has been reduced to memorizing 144 lines of al-Jawhara and a good commentary to study it, at best.

The reality is we are an Umma [worldwide Muslim community] that no longer realizes that Allah is the power behind all power; that it is Allah who subjugates one people to another; that He gives dominion to whom He pleases and He takes it away from whom He pleases. Our understanding of tawhid [oneness of God] has fallen into such disarray that we can no longer introspect when afflictions befall us and then wonder in amazement at why the Americans seem incapable of introspection. Indeed, I personally attended a memorial service in San Francisco with over 30,000 people and the Reverend Amos Brown said in no uncertain terms that America must ask herself what she has done either wittingly or unwittingly to incur the wrath and hate of people around the world. Muslims on the other hand, generally prefer to attack the West as the sole reason for their problems when the truth is we are bankrupt as a religious community and our spiritual bankruptcy has led to our inability to even deliver the message of Islam to Westerners in a time when they were giving us platforms to do so.

It is ironic that the Western media while producing many vile programs on Islam has also produced and aired material of the highest quality with a high level of accuracy only to be vilified by Muslims because it was not good enough. Where is our media? Where are our spokespeople? Where are our scholars? Where are our literary figures? The truth is we don’t have any - and so instead of looking inward and asking painful questions such as why we don’t have such things and such people, we take the simple way out by attacking people whom Allah tells us will do mean things, say bad things and plot against us. And always when we are warned we are told to be patient, to work for the good, to trust in Allah, to return to Allah, to implement our deen [religion].

Conspiracy or not, we are to blame for the terrible backlash against Muslims. The simple reason is that when a crazy Christian does something terrible, everyone in the West knows it is the actions of a mad man because they have some knowledge of the core beliefs and ethics of Christianity. When a mad Muslim does something evil or foolish they assume it is from the religion of Islam, not because they hate us but because they have never been told by a Muslim what the teachings of Islam are all about

and here's what he and 137 other scholars had to say on calling for peace and understanding between christianity and islam

Quote:

A Common Word Between Us and You - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Common Word between Us and You is an open letter, dated 13th October 2007, from leaders of the Muslim faith to leaders of the Christian faith. It calls for peace between Muslims and Christians and tries to work for common ground and understanding among both faiths, in line with the Biblical and Quranic commandment to love God, and one’s neighbour. In the short time since its release, “A Common Word” has become the world’s leading interfaith dialogue initiative between Christians and Muslims. It is unprecedented in its scope and success in both the Christian and the Muslim world. The success of the initiative was acknowledged in its being awarded the “Eugen Biser Award” in 2008. That year saw “A Common Word” also receive the “Building Bridges Award” from the UK’s Association of Muslim Social Scientists

Background
“A Common Word between Us and You” is a follow up to a smaller letter, sent in 2006, in response to Pope Benedict XVI’s lecture at the University of Regensburg on 12th September 2006. This lecture, on the subject of faith and reason, had focused mainly on Christianity and what Pope Benedict called the tendency in the modern world to “exclude the question of God” from reason. Islam features in a part of the lecture. The Pope quoted a Byzantine Emperor’s strong criticism of Muhammad’s teachings. Pope Benedict clarified that this was not his own personal opinion, describing the quotation as being of a “startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded.”

Throughout the world, however, many people thought the Pope’s use of the quote insensitive. A very strong sense of injustice was expressed by many Muslims in response to the speech. One month later, 38 Islamic scholars, representing all branches of Islam, replied to Pope Benedict in “An Open Letter to the Pope,” dated 13th October 2006. One year later, 138 Islamic personalities co signed an open letter entitled “A Common Word between Us and You.” The letter aimed to promote inter faith dialogue.

[edit] Addressees
“A Common Word between Us and You” is addressed to Pope Benedict XVI, the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Churches, the leaders of the larger Christian denominations, and to leaders of Christians everywhere. A list is as follows:

His All Holiness Bartholomew, Patriarch of Constantinople
His Beatitude Theodoros II, Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa
His Beatitude Ignatius IV, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East
His Beatitude Theophilos III, Patriarch of the holy City of Jerusalem
His Beatitude Alexy II, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia
His Beatitude Pavle, Patriarch of Belgrade and Serbia
His Beatitude Daniel, Patriarch of Romania,
His Beatitude Maxim, Patriarch of Bulgaria,
His Beatitude Ilia II, Archbishop of Mtskheta – Tbilisi, Catholico-Patriarch of All Georgia
His Beatitude Chrisostomos, Archbishop of Cyprus
His Beatitude Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece
His Beatitude Sawa, Metropolitan of Warsaw and All Polan
His Beatitude Anastasios, Archbishop of Tirana, Duerres and All Albania
His Beatitude Christoforos, Metropolitan of the Czech and Slovak Republics
His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa on the Apostolic Throne of St Mark
His Beatitude Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians
His Beatitude Ignatius Zakka I, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, Supreme Head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church
His Holiness Mar Thoma Didymos I, Catholicos of the East on the Apostolic Throne of St Thomas and the Malankara Metropolitan
His Holiness Abune Paulos, Fifth Patriarch and Catholicos of Ethiopia, Tekle Haymanot, Arcbishop of Axum
His Beatitude Mar Dinkha IV, Patriarch of the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East
The Most Reverend and Right Honourable The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams DD
The Right Reverend Mark S Hanson, Presiding Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and President of the Lutheran World Federation
The Reverend George H Freeman, General Secretary, World Methodist Council
The Reverend David Coffey, President of the Baptist World Alliance
The Reverend Setri Nyomi, General Secretary of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches
The Reverend Dr Samuel Kobia, General Secretary, World Council of Churches
[edit] Authorship
The letter is signed by 138 prominent Muslim personalities from a large number of countries from several continents. These include academics, politicians, writers and muftis. Nearly half of the signatories are university academics or scholars. According to the letter’s website, its author was HRH Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan[1].

[edit] Signatories
Since the letter was originally sent on 18th October 2007, there have been a number of new signatories with the result that there are now over 300 Muslim signatories. Great effort was made to ensure signatories represented as broad a range of viewpoints from the Muslim world as possible. Signatories included:

Mustafa Cerić
Timothy Winter
Feisal Abdul Rauf
H A Hellyer
Nihad Awad
Hamza Yusuf
Tareq Al – Suwaidan
Ayatollah Al-Faqih Seyyed Hussein Ismail Al Sadr
Anas Al –Shaikh-Ali
Kabir Helminski
Murad Hofmann
Ali Ajifri
Anwar Ibrahim
Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu
Nuh ha Mim Keller
Mohammad Hashim Kamali
Amr Khaled
Ali Lakhani
Aref Ali Nayed
Rawil Gaynetdin
[edit] Contents of the Letter
List of Addressees
Summary and Abridgement
Love of God
Love of God in Islam
Love of God as the First and Greatest Commandment in the Bible
Love of the Neighbour
Love of the Neighbour in Islam
Love of the Neighbour in the Bible
Come to a Common Word Between Us and You
Notes
Signatories
[edit] Main quotations from the Letter
“Muslims and Christians together make up well over half of the world’s population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world. The future of the world depends on peace between Muslims and Christians.”

“The basis for this peace and understanding already exists. It is part of the very foundational principles of both faiths: love of the One God, and love of the neighbour. These principles are found over and over again in the sacred texts of Islam and Christianity.”

““Of God’s Unity, God says in the Holy Qu’ran: “Say, He is God, the One! God, the Self Sufficient Besought of all! (Al – Ikhlas 112:1-2).” Of the necessity of love for God, God says in the Holy Qu’ran: “So invoke the Name of thy Lord and devote thyself to him with a complete devotion (Al-Muzzammil 73:8).” Of the necessity of love for the neighbour; the prophet Muhammad said: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.”

“In the New Testament, Jesus Christ said: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One./ And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.” This is the first commandment. / And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12: 29-31)

“In obedience to the Holy Qu’ran, we as Muslims invite Christians to come together with us on the basis of what is common to us, which is also what is most essential to our faith and practice: the Two Commandments.”

(In Islam)...”the call to be totally devoted and attached to God, heart and soul, far from being a call for a mere emotion or for a mood, is in fact an injunction requiring all-embracing, constant and active love of God. It demands a love in which the innermost spiritual heart and the whole of the soul-with its intelligence, will and feeling – participate through devotion.”

“The Shema in the book of Deuteronomy (6:4-5), a centrepiece of the Old Testament and of Jewish Liturgy, says: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!/You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength.””

“In the New Testament, when Jesus Christ, the Messiah, is asked about the Greatest Commandment, he answers: “But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, the gathered together./Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,/”Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?”/Jesus said to him, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.”/This is the first and greatest commandment./And the second is like it: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” /On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:34-40).”

“The commandment to love God fully is (thus) the First and Greatest Commandment of the Bible.”

“There are numerous injunctions in Islam about the necessity and paramount importance of love for – and mercy towards – the neighbour. Love of the neighbour is an essential and integral part of faith in God and love of God because in Islam without love of the neighbour there is no true faith in God and no righteousness. The Prophet Muhammad said: “None of you has faith until you love for your brother what you love for yourself.” And: “None of you has faith until you love for your neighbour what you love for yourself.””

“Whilst Islam and Christianity are obviously different religions – and whilst there is no minimising some of their formal differences – it is clear that the Two Greatest Commandments are an area of common ground and a link between the Qu’ran, the Torah and the New Testament.”

“In the Holy Qu’ran, God Most High tells Muslims to issue the following call to Christians (and Jews-the People of the Scripture): “Say: O people of the Scripture! Come to a common word between us and you: that we shall worship none but God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).” (Aal’Imran 3:64)”

“As Muslims, we ay to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them – so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes, (in accordance with the verse of the Holy Qu’ran (Al-Mumtahinah, 60:8)”

“Muslims recognise Jesus Christ as the Messiah, not in the same way Christians do (but Christians themselves anyway have never all agreed with each other on Jesus Christ’s nature), but in the following way: ...the Messiah Jesus son of Mary is a Messenger of God and His Word which He cast unto Mary and a Spirit from Him..(Al – Nisa 4: 171). We therefore invite Christians to consider Muslims not against and thus with them, in accordance with Jesus Christ’s words here.”

“Finding common ground between Muslims and Christians is not simply a matter for polite ecumenical dialogue between selected religious leaders. Christianity and Islam are the largest and second largest religions in the world and in history. Christians and Muslims reportedly make up over a third and over a fifth of humanity respectively. Together they make up more than 55% of the world’s population, making the relationship between these two communities the most important factor in contributing to meaningful peace around the world. With the terrible weaponry of the modern world; with Muslims and Christians intertwined everywhere as never before, no side can unilaterally win a conflict between more than half of the world’s inhabitants. Thus our common future is at stake. The very survival of the world itself is perhaps at stake.”

“Let us respect each other, be fair, just and kind to one another and live in sincere peace, harmony and mutual good will.”

[edit] Positive Reaction
Response by Professor David F. Ford, Director, Cambridge Inter–Faith Programme 13th October 2007: “This historic agreement gives the right keynote for relations between Muslims and Christians in the 21st century...there are three main reasons why this is so important. First, it is unprecedented in bringing together so many of the leading religious authorities and scholars of Islam and uniting them in a positive, substantial affirmation. This is an astonishing achievement of solidarity, one that can be built on in the future. Second, it is addressed to Christians in the form of a friendly word, it engages respectfully and carefully with the Christian scriptures, and it finds common ground in what Jesus Himself said is central: love of God and love of neighbour....third it opens a way forward that is more helpful for the world than most others at present in the public sphere....it challenges Muslims and Christians to live up to their own teachings and seek political and educational as well as personal ways to do this for the sake of the common good.”
Response by the Right Honourable Tony Blair 13th October 2007: “This is the only way, in the modern world, to make sense of different history and culture, so that, instead of defining ourselves by reference to difference, we learn to recognise the values we share and define a shared future.”
Response by Yale Divinity School’s Centre for Faith and Culture 13th October 2009: “What is so extraordinary about A Common Word between Us and You” is not that its signatories recognise the critical character of the present moment in relations between Christians and Muslims. It is rather the deep insight and courage with which they have identified the common ground between the Muslim and Christian communities. What is common between us lies not in something marginal, nor in something merely important to each. It lies, rather, in something absolutely central to both: love of God and love of neighbour...that so much common ground exists – common ground in some of the fundamentals of faith – gives hope that undeniable differences and even the very real external pressures that bear down upon us can not overshadow the common ground upon which we stand together. That this common ground consists in love of God and of neighbour gives hope that deep cooperation between us can be a hallmark of the relations between our two communities.”
Response by the Archbishop of Canterbury, The Most Reverend and Right Honourable Dr Rowan Williams DD: “We are deeply appreciative of the initiative you have taken and welcome “A Common Word between Us and You” as a significant development in relations between Christians and Muslims...to your invitation to enter more deeply into dialogue and collaboration as part of our faithful response to the revelation of God’s purpose for humankind, we say: Yes! Amen.”
Comment by H.H. Pope Benedict XVI at the King Hussein Mosque in Jordan on Saturday May 9th, 2009:
‘ …. and the more recent Common Word letter which echoed a theme consonant with my first encyclical: the unbreakable bond between love of God and love of neighbor, and the fundamental contradiction of resorting to violence or exclusion in the name of God (cf. Deus Caritas Est, 16)’.

[edit] Negative Reaction
The Common Word website Frequently Asked Questions section [2] addresses much of the criticism of the letter's perceived lack of inclusiveness: "This document is a first step, but one that strives to lay a solid foundation for the construction of many worthy edifices. The document can not be expected to do everything at once. Moreover, many of these issues were already addressed in the Amman Message. [4] The website further acknowledges concerning the letter being a form of "propaganda": "If you mean by that witnessing and proclaiming one’s faith with compassion and gentleness, then yes. If you mean forcing one’s views on others, then no."

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, a Vatican official, welcomed dialogue but commented that real dialog with Muslims is difficult. He pointed out imbalances, such as opposition or limitations to the building of churches in some Muslim countries, whilst in Christian countries, Muslims are free to build Mosques. He also said, "Muslims do not accept that one can discuss the Koran in depth, because they say it was written by dictation from God.... With such an absolute interpretation, it is difficult to discuss the contents of faith." [3] However, Cardinal Tauran is quoted as saying that his remarks were not exclusivist and that Muslims and Christians are to engage in a substantive dialogue concerning theological and spiritual foundations. [4]

[edit] Follow-up
A Workshop and Conference was held at Yale University, USA between 24th and 31st July 2008. The conference was entitled, “Loving God and Neighbour in Word and Deed: Implications for Muslims and Christians.” The conference was convened by the Yale Centre for Faith and Culture in collaboration with the Royal Al –Bayt Institute and held at Yale University. Over 120 leading Muslim and Christian leaders and scholars attended the event. A statement was issued at the end of the conference which included the following: “Participants of the conference agreed that: 1. Muslims and Christians affirm the unity and absoluteness of God. We recognise that God’s merciful love is infinite, eternal and embraces all things. This love is central to both our religions and is at the heart of the Judeao-Christian-Islamic monotheistic heritage.2. We recognise that all human beings have the right to the preservation of life, religion, property, intellect, and dignity. No Muslim or Christian should deny the other these rights, nor should they tolerate the denigration or desecration of one another’s sacred symbols, founding figures or places of worship.3. We are committed to these principles and to furthering them through continuous dialogue. We thank God for bringing us together in this historic endeavour and ask that He purify our intentions and grant us success through His all encompassing Mercy and Love.4. We Christian and Muslim participants meeting together at Yale for the historic “A Common Word” conference denounce and deplore threats made against those who engage in interfaith dialogue. Dialogue is not a departure from faith; it is a legitimate means of expression and an essential tool in the quest for the common good.”

A conference, titled “A Common Word and Future Muslim-Christian Engagement,” was hosted by the Archbishop of Canterbury in collaboration with the University of Cambridge Inter Faith programme and the Royal Aal Al-Bayt Institute and held at the University of Cambridge with a final session at Lambeth Palace between 12th and 15th October 2008. The conference brought together a small group of scholars and religious leaders from the Muslim and Christian communities for discussion and fellowship. A communiqué was issued at the end of the conference which included the following: “we are conscious that our meeting represented the most significant gathering of international Muslim leaders ever to take place in the United Kingdom, matched by a similarly wide diversity of traditions and geographical backgrounds amongst the Christian participants....We have committed ourselves to the following over the coming year:

To identify and promote the use of educational materials, for all age groups and in the widest possible range of languages, that we accept as providing a fair reflection of our faiths
To build a network of academic institutions, linking scholars, students and academic resources, with various commitments and teams which can work on shared values
To identify funds to facilitate exchanges between those training for roles of leadership within our religious communities
To translate significant texts from our two religious traditions for the use of the other
As we prepare to return, each to our own countries and contexts, we resolve to act on the oft repeated desire to find the means of ensuring that the two letters we have discussed and the wonderful fruits of our time together are spread amongst our co religionists, that the spirit of collaboration, mutual respect and desire for greater understanding may be the mark of our relationship for the benefit of all humankind.”
Between 4th-6th November 2008 the first seminar of the Catholic-Muslim forum was held at in Rome, sponsored by the Pontifical Council for Inter Religious Dialogue and the Royal Al-Bayt Institute in Amman. The seminar culminated in an audience with Pope Benedict XVI at which an address was made by Sheikh Mustafa Ceric and Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

Pope Benedict’s address included the following: “I am well aware that Muslims and Christians have different approaches in matters regarding God. Yet we can and must be worshippers of the one God who created us and is concerned about each person in every corner of the world. Together we must show, by our mutual respect and solidarity, that we consider ourselves members of one family: the family that God has loved and gathered together from the creation of the world to the end of human history.”

Professor Seyyed Hossein Nasr’s address included the following:”With so many profound similarities, why then have we had such a long history of confrontation and opposition? The answer is that we of course also have our differences which have providentially kept Christianity and Islam distinct and separate. Let us mention just a few of them. We emphasise Divine Unity and reject the idea of a triune God while you emphasise the Trinity while believing God to be One. We and you both revere Christ but in a different manner, and we do not accept the Christian account of the end of His earthly life. And yet, we Muslims also accept Christ as the Messiah (al Masih) and expect his Second Coming at the end of the history of present humanity. We emphasise Divine Law (al- shari’ah) as rooted in the Qu’ranic revelation, while Christ asserted his break with the Law in the name of the Spirit. Therefore, Christians do not have the same conception of Divine Law as do Jews and Muslims. Nor do Christians have a sacred language as does Islam, but have used, and some still do use, several liturgical languages. You and we, we both believe in religious freedom, but we Muslims do not allow an aggressive proselytising in our midst that destroys our faith in the name of freedom any more than Christians would if they were in our situation. The encounter of Christianity with modernism, including secular humanism and rationalism associated with the Age of Enlightenment, has also been very different from the experience of that encounter with Islam. Perhaps then we can each learn something from the other in this very significant matter. We should join together in the battle against the desacralising and anti religious forces of the modern world, and joining effort should bring us closer together. Secularism would certainly not be a source for the creation of further distance between us.”

The Final Declaration of the Catholic Muslim Forum at Rome included the following: “We profess that Catholics and Muslims are called to be instruments of love and harmony among believers, and for humanity as a whole, renouncing any oppression, aggressive violence and terrorism, especially that committed in the name of religion, and upholding the principles of justice for all.”

During a visit to the Middle East by His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI on 9th May 2009, His Holiness made a speech to an assembly of religious leaders at the King Hussein State Mosque, Jordan. In the course of that speech he said the following about “A Common Word”:

“Such initiatives clearly lead to a greater reciprocal knowledge, and they foster a growing respect for what we hold in common and for what we understand differently. Thus, they should prompt Christians and Muslims to probe even more deeply the essential relationship between God and His world so that together we may strive to ensure that society resonates in harmony with the divine order. In this regard, the co operation found here in Jordan sets an encouraging and persuasive example for the region, and indeed the world, of the positive, creative contribution which religion can and must make to civic society.”

The Eugen Biser Award was conferred on HRH Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad, Sheikh Al –Habib All-Jifri and Reisu –l-Ulema Dr Mustafa Ceric on 22nd November 2008. The award was received by HRH Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, Sheikh Al-Habib All-Jifri and Reisu –l-Ulema Dr Mustafa Ceric, in recognition of their contribution to Muslim – Christian dialogue. In the course of his speech of acceptance HRH Prince Ghazi said: “We were aiming to try and spread peace and harmony between Christians and Muslims all over the world, not through governments and treaties but on the all-important popular and mass level, through the world’s most influential popular leaders precisely – that is to say through the leaders of the two religions. We wanted to stop the drum beat of what we feared was a growing popular consensus (on both sides) for world wide (and thus cataclysmic and even apocalyptic) Muslim –Christian jihad/crusade. We were keenly aware, however, that peace efforts required also another element: knowledge. We thus aimed to try to spread proper basic knowledge of our religion in order to correct and abate the constant and unjust vilification of Islam, in the West especially....I would like to say that “A Common Word” does not signal that Muslims are prepared to deviate from or concede one iota of any of their convictions in reaching out to Christians – nor, I expect, the opposite. Let us be crystal clear: A Common word is about equal peace, NOT about capitulation.”

Numerous conferences, workshops, speeches and other inter faith activities inspired by or exploring “A Common Word” have appeared spontaneously, throughout the world. These have included lectures and workshops in Cambridge University in February 2009, in Oman in March and April 2009, and, also in 2009, in the USA, Egypt and Sudan. Symposiums took place at the Mediterranean Dialogue of Cultures in 2008, the Brookings Institute in Qatar in 2009, the Fuller Theological Seminary in 2009, the Islamic Society of North America Conference in 2009 and Yale University in 2009.

A Conference, hosted by Georgetown University, the Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Centre for Muslim-Christian Understanding and the Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought and entitled “A Common Word between Us and You A Global Agenda for Change” was held between 6th and 8th October 2009 at Georgetown University. The purpose of the conference was to identify suitable projects to further the aims of “A Common Word” across the world.

[edit] Publications
A number of academic books and journals have emerged in the past 12 months dedicated to “A Common Word:”

HRH Prince Ghazi, Professor Miroslav Volf and Merissa Yarrington edited a book about the initiative for the publisher Eerdmans
A book was prepared by Georgetown Professor Ibrahim Kalin for the academic publisher Palgrave – Macmillan (which is due to be released in 2010)
Georgetown University’s Centre for Muslim – Christian Understanding has published an Occasional Paper on the initiative entitled “A Common word and the Future of Muslim Christian Relations”
The Washington DC based academic journal Sophia, and the Beirut Theological Seminary have dedicated issues to “A Common Word.”
The Royal Aal Al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought issued a booklet summarising issues related to “A Common Word.”
Islamica Magazine dedicated a dossier to the document, Issue 21 released February 2009.
References to A Common Word in Speeches

Reference to A Common Word has been made in a number of important speeches, including the main sermon at the traditional, presidential post inauguration service at the National Cathedral, Washington DC for President Barack Obama on 21st January, 209. The reference was made by The Reverend Sharon E Watkins during the course of her sermon. Elsewhere, the former US Secretary of State, Madeline Albright, referred to A Common Word during her testimony before the US Senate in February 2009, and Pope Benedict XVI referred to A Common Word on several occasions, on 8th and 9th May 2009, during the course of his pilgrimage to the Holy Land.

Practical Projects inspired by A Common Word

In the course of 2008 “A Common Word” inspired a number of initiatives between Muslims and Christians. Examples are as follows:

A project sponsored by the NGO “Habitat for Humanity.”
The establishment of C1, a high level, international forum for the improvement of Muslim Christian relations, co chaired by The Right Reverend and Right Honourable Dr Richard Chartres, Lord Bishop of London, and His Excellency, Dr Ali Gomaa, Grand Mufti of Egypt
A film documentary produced in Arabic and English, by “Ten Thousand Films”[5] will help in spreading “A Common word” around as wide an international audience as possible
The establishment of an office in Sohan, Islamabad dedicated to the improvement of Muslim Christian relations in Pakistan
[edit] Press
Nearly 700 articles have appeared about “A Common Word” in English language press outlets around the world. Virtually every newspaper in the Middle East, and the West has run at least an article on the initiative. There is a long list of press cuttings about the initiative on the A Common Word website.[6]

[edit] Website
The website for A Common Word was launched on 10th October 2007 at The Official Website of A Common Word. The site includes a “pop up” box which asks visitors to endorse the letter. As at 29th September 2009 the site had recorded 7,174 endorsements of the message, out of around 275,000 visitors to the website.

The official website contains the full text of “A Common Word between Us and You,” a list of signatories, addressees, responses, media resources (including a regular update of media comment), downloads and translations, new signatories, pictures and a variety of other information about a variety of other activities and events related to “A Common Word.” The website includes a page where are able to leave comments.

and for the record.. i havent killed anyone!

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 11:00 AM

Southern bashing - despite living in Chicago, I'm probably more Southern than you, Dave. I grew up in East Tennessee, so I know the difference between a hillbilly and a redneck, and one of the people that can give me the first person account of lynching justified from the pulpet is my father. It was only a couple of generations ago - well within living memory - that killing a black man for a small slight was quasi-legal. If you want to have a discussion about racial politics in Southern Mississippi from 1900 to present, I'm loaded for bear, including some less-than-stellar family history (my one-legged, one-armed paternal great-grandfather was not a particularly nice human being even before he lost limbs in separate incidents). I consider myself centrally placed to do all sorts of Southern bashing since I'm related to a bunch of the morons who did the things to deserve the bashing in the first place.

The guy in the video may or may not have done anything other than change his shirt in the wrong place at the wrong time. He could have tried to kill a bunch of people, in which case he should consider himself permanently uninvited to Casa de los Jazz. He may not have, in which case, if he's not an asshole and is fun to be around, he might find himself invited. I don't know him, so at this stage, he's not invited.

Dave, you're suspicious of "those" religious folks based on something that they may not even agree with. There is no central authority in Islam the way that there is in Christianity, so "leaders" are generally self-appointed. Generally the Muslims that are angry with the US are angry for some pretty fucking stupid shit we've done, but they're angry with the US government, not the people.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

The guy in the video may or may not have done anything other than change his shirt in the wrong place at the wrong time. He could have tried to kill a bunch of people, in which case he should consider himself permanently uninvited to Casa de los Jazz. He may not have, in which case, if he's not an asshole and is fun to be around, he might find himself invited. I don't know him, so at this stage, he's not invited.

the guy in this video, 3rd one down, doubt you'll be inviting him.

Revolution Muslim

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Dave, you're suspicious of "those" religious folks based on something that they may not even agree with. There is no central authority in Islam the way that there is in Christianity, so "leaders" are generally self-appointed. Generally the Muslims that are angry with the US are angry for some pretty fucking stupid shit we've done, but they're angry with the US government, not the people.

But innocent people are the ones who pay, not the American gov. Sure they tried to hit the pentagon on 9/11 but the big target was civilian. I disagree with your view anyway, the radicals want the infidels converted or dead, I dont see any middle ground here. Unfortunately the more mainstream Muslims seem to support their radical brethren. From the letter...

Quote:

I have seen little even approaching this sort of action. Instead I have seen an already closed and secretive community close even tighter. You have disappeared from the streets. You have posted armed security guards at your facilities. You have threatened lawsuits. You have screamed for protection from reprisals. The very few Arab/Muslim representatives that HAVE appeared in the media were defensive and equivocating.

I was only making a silly comment about the "lite" southern bashing that went on in another thread, guess you missed that one.

Time for lunch, beer anyone?

LordEden · 05-03-2010, 11:45 AM

It really surprises me that people talk all the time about "What Muslims do, What will their religion cause them to do next" when we have some crazy ass people preaching some intolerant ideals and morals in American churches every Sunday. Stupid/Loud/Crazy people with religion are scarybad, no matter what the religion.

Being scared of muslims is very LOW on my lists of things that I fear on a daily basis. Below falling down the stairs and cracking my neck and The_Jazz showing up at my house to sodomize me with a rubber hose.

Implied South bashing again? *Packs bags and heads out of this thread*.

dlish · 05-03-2010, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

the guy in this video, 3rd one down, doubt you'll be inviting him.

Revolution Muslim

But innocent people are the ones who pay, not the American gov. Sure they tried to hit the pentagon on 9/11 but the big target was civilian. I disagree with your view anyway, the radicals want the infidels converted or dead, I dont see any middle ground here. Unfortunately the more mainstream Muslims seem to support their radical brethren. From the letter...

I was only making a silly comment about the "lite" southern bashing that went on in another thread, guess you missed that one.

Time for lunch, beer anyone?

you're quoting an islamic site that quotes a mixture of wahabi and hizb-e-tahrir literature. but then again you probably didnt know that did you? a muslim is a muslim is a muslim to most people.

and yeah i'd invite the guy to my place.. to slap him around a couple of times. yeah, sure.

im not sure which site you've been reading, but ive known and met a countless number muslims from across the globe. i am yet to meet one that has justified the killing of an innocent person. not one. some may justify it as collatoral damage as a result of war ( and thats debateable even from withing islamic circles), but not one radical muslim ive met has stated that non-muslims (or infidels as you'd like to call them - it sounds like a more inciteful word doesnt it?) are fair game if they do not convert.

even OBL has stated that he's leave the USA alone if they stopped meddling in saudi arabia, so its not really a matter of 'kill the infidel' rather than 'leave us alone' and we'll leave you alone.

p.s. apologies for my host-like post previously

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 11:50 AM

Dave, what innocent people have paid outside of 9/11? I'll wait.

The_Dunedan · 05-03-2010, 11:52 AM

Quote:

It really surprises me that people talk all the time about "What Muslims do, What will their religion cause them to do next" when we have some crazy ass people preaching some intolerant ideals and morals in churches every Sunday. Stupid/Loud/Crazy people with religion are scary, no matter what the religion.

Agreed, with one small caveat. I'm unaware of any preacher in the US, Canada, or western Europe (one important exception discussed below) making it a point to instruct their followers to -kill- nonbelievers. Protest against, sure. Picket, absolutely. Harass, certainly, and actionable harassment in certain instances. But orders to kill is not something I've heard of except from the more heavily inbred sections of Unionist/Loyalist circles in the North Of Ireland, and in certain parts of Africa where -all- the local religions are heavily imbued with local traditional tribal practice in any case. Even Freddie-boy Phelps doesn't tell people to go out and kill gays. Edited To Add: Such instructions seem much -more- common within Islam. That is not to say that they -are- common, however: the proportion of Islamic preachers and scholars who call for violence is still very small compared to the whole of a 1.3-billion-person faith, and their influence is limited to a small number of sects within Islam which are much, much more militant and willing to embrace violence than the mainstream of worldwide Islam. That those sects sometimes wield disproportionate PR influence thanks to ties to (or support from) wealthy families such as the bin-Laden clan and the Royal House of Saud is an issue for another thread.

I do have to say, however, that being scared of Muslims is silly. I lived in a large European city several years ago: a city with a very sizeable Iranian population and lots of other flavours of Muslim/mid-Eastern folks besides. I even had several Muslim students. Not a single one of them gave me any pause, and every time I heard the phrase "EURabia" I just wanted to reach through the TV/Radio and cockslap the speaker.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

It pisses me off even more when some members here seem to think that muslims seem to have 'jihad on their minds'. i'm not even sure if you said that with a straight face. do you even personally know any muslims or associated with a muslim family or had them over for dinner? my guess is no. i dont think your comment even warrants a response to be honest.

I should have said "radical" Muslim & I should have made it more clear that I had just watched that video of the lunatic you said you'd like to slap around.

As a matter of fact I have friends who are Muslim and they share similar views with you. While they may reject radical Islamic views they've told me of others in my community who dont hold the same views and although they're not terrorists per say they do support the radicals. I also have some Indian, Black, White, Green, Purple & Red friends. Go Figure?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Dave, what innocent people have paid outside of 9/11? I'll wait.

Are you kidding? Lets see how many have been killed in Iraq & Afghanistan? Oh you mean state side? Dont know, is that important?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

I do have to say, however, that being scared of Muslims is silly. I lived in a large European city several years ago: a city with a very sizeable Iranian population and lots of other flavours of Muslim/mid-Eastern folks besides. I even had several Muslim students. Not a single one of them gave me any pause, and every time I heard the phrase "EURabia" I just wanted to reach through the TV/Radio and cockslap the speaker.

I said I was suspicious, not afraid.

dippin · 05-03-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

While Oklahoma City & 9/11 were both terrorist attacks I think the reasoning behind them is significant. McVeigh's actions were directly related to Waco, the intrusion of the gov into religious beliefs. The 9/11 attacks were directly related to radical Muslims who believe all infidels should be converted or die.

Whoever was responsible for the recent bombing attempt doesnt change the fact that radicals still want us (US) gone.

The idea that one act was more "justifiable" than the other is nonsense. Especially since the idea that Al Qaeda and so on want to "convert or kill" all infidels is false. It is a lot more about a misguided idea of defense of Muslims and Muslim territories than converting and killing infidels. That is why the US is a major target, given it's association with Israel and with military bases in the middle east. That is why up until the Gulf war the groups that eventually became Al Qaeda had no problems with the US, and actually gladly accepted their help against the USSR. That is why Saudi Arabia is a bigger target for Al Qaeda than the Vatican, China, and other states that have an official religion (or official lack of religion).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

Unfortunately the more mainstream Muslims seem to support their radical brethren. From the letter...

Bullshit. Mainstream Muslims don't support their "radical brethren.

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

Are you kidding? Lets see how many have been killed in Iraq & Afghanistan? Oh you mean state side? Dont know, is that important?

A soldier never has been and never can be considered an "innocent person". They're the antithesis of the innocent bystander, and they're paid to be.

Try again.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 12:17 PM

I think more civilians have been killed than soldiers, Iraq Body Count

dippin · 05-03-2010, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

Agreed, with one small caveat. I'm unaware of any preacher in the US, Canada, or western Europe (one important exception discussed below) making it a point to instruct their followers to -kill- nonbelievers. Protest against, sure. Picket, absolutely. Harass, certainly, and actionable harassment in certain instances. But orders to kill is not something I've heard of except from the more heavily inbred sections of Unionist/Loyalist circles in the North Of Ireland, and in certain parts of Africa where -all- the local religions are heavily imbued with local traditional tribal practice in any case. Even Freddie-boy Phelps doesn't tell people to go out and kill gays. Edited To Add: Such instructions seem much -more- common within Islam. That is not to say that they -are- common, however: the proportion of Islamic preachers and scholars who call for violence is still very small compared to the whole of a 1.3-billion-person faith, and their influence is limited to a small number of sects within Islam which are much, much more militant and willing to embrace violence than the mainstream of worldwide Islam. That those sects sometimes wield disproportionate PR influence thanks to ties to (or support from) wealthy families such as the bin-Laden clan and the Royal House of Saud is an issue for another thread.

I do have to say, however, that being scared of Muslims is silly. I lived in a large European city several years ago: a city with a very sizeable Iranian population and lots of other flavours of Muslim/mid-Eastern folks besides. I even had several Muslim students. Not a single one of them gave me any pause, and every time I heard the phrase "EURabia" I just wanted to reach through the TV/Radio and cockslap the speaker.

Well, I am also unaware of any Muslim leader of any significance in the US, Canada, or Western Europe instructing their followers to kill non-believers. You might have the weird sect here and there, but then again you also have self appointed leaders of white supremacist groups.

And I think you'll find those that do call for that come from regions where people of other religions also call for that. Christian Phalangists can be pretty nasty.

---------- Post added at 12:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

I think more civilians have been killed than soldiers, Iraq Body Count

Doesn't the whole fratricidal civil war scenario basically undermine your argument about killing infidels and converting people?

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

I think more civilians have been killed than soldiers, Iraq Body Count

So what? That has nothing to do with the argument you're making.

The_Dunedan · 05-03-2010, 12:28 PM

Quote:

And I think you'll find those that do call for that come from regions where people of other religions also call for that. Christian Phalangists can be pretty nasty.

Ariel Sharon'd! (Sorry 9ster!)

Good point. In areas where religion turns nasty, it's frequently inclined to be ecumencal nastiness.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 12:34 PM

Is this guy significant? Are 10% of the US Mosques really preaching Jihad?

Feds target American-born Muslim cleric for kill or capture

April 7th, 2010

"The U.S. government has targeted American-born Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki to be killed or captured, a U.S. official told CNN Wednesday.

"We would be remiss if we didn't find ways to pursue someone who is a serious threat to this country and has plotted against Americans," the official said.

Al-Awlaki, who is believed to be hiding in Yemen, called last month for jihad against America. He said in an audio message that "America is evil."

His sermons and recordings have been found on the computers of at least a dozen terror suspects in the United States and Britain. In addition, al-Awlaki admits to having communication with U.S. Army Maj. Nidal Hassan, who has been charged in the shooting deaths of 13 people at Ford Hood, Texas, in November."

FBI: 10% of U.S. Mosques Preach Jihad

FBI: 10% of U.S. Mosques Preach Jihad
Tuesday, 10 Nov 2009 12:09 PM
Article Font Size

By: Ronald Kessler

Imams preach jihad and extremism in 10 percent of the 2,000 mosques in the United States, the FBI estimates.

That sums up the problem facing us as we ponder the meaning of Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan’s slayings of 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas. Given his association with a pro-al-Qaida imam in northern Virginia and his preoccupation with radical Islamic Web sites, it’s clear that the radical element of Islam influenced Hasan.

On the other hand, those who condemn Muslims in general because of the actions of Hasan and others like him are engaging in prejudice that has no place in America. Indeed, such stereotyping sets back the war on terror, because we need moderate Muslims on our side.

The problem is not the Quran, which is no more incendiary than some passages in the Bible. (Deuteronomy, for example, prescribes stoning to death for those who “served other gods and worshipped them.”) The problem is the radical element that uses the Quran as an excuse to engage in terrorism and the failure of many moderate Muslims to condemn the extremists.

About a quarter of the Muslims in America ages 18 through 29 believe that suicide bombings can be justified, according to a Pew Research Center poll. Generating those attitudes are imams who preach jihad and hatred in American mosques and postings on the Internet, according to FBI counterterrorism officials interviewed for my book “The Terrorist Watch: Inside the Desperate Race to Stop the Next Attack.”

Saying he is being conservative, an FBI counterterrorism official told me in interviews for the book that 1 in 10 imams preach jihad. Before 9/11, the number of mosques where imams preached jihad was even greater than today.

“Those who actively support extremist causes, say America is evil and deserves what it gets, and celebrate the death of soldiers, know they may come to our attention,” an FBI official says. “So they don’t do it as openly now.”

Before 9/11, he says, “There was much more of that because all of it was considered by Justice Department guidelines to be purely protected speech. We do not have incitement laws in America, but once an imam facilitates someone else taking action, he has crossed the line into material support and becomes our business.”

An example was Ali al-Timimi, a spiritual leader at a mosque in Northern Virginia who preached jihad and provided contact information for those who went to Afghanistan for training in terrorist camps. Al-Timimi is serving a life prison term.

The FBI has outreach programs to try to develop sources in the Muslim community and solicit tips, but FBI agents have found little receptivity. They find that Muslims often are in denial about the fact that the terrorists who threaten the U.S. are Muslims.

“I had this discussion with the director of a very prominent Muslim organization here in D.C.,” a frustrated counterterrorism agent says. “And he said, ‘Why are you guys always looking at the Muslim community?’”

The agent began laughing.

“Okay, you know what I’ll do?” the agent said. “I’ll start an Irish squad, or how about a Japanese squad? You want me to waste my time and your taxpayers' dollars going to look at the Irish? They’re not killing Americans. Right now, I’m going to put my money and my people in a place where the threat is.”

The agent tells them to take a look at the cells that the FBI has rolled up in the United States.

“I can name the home-grown cells, all of whom are Muslim, all of whom were seeking to murder Americans,” the agent says. “It’s not the Irish, it’s not the French, it’s not the Catholics, it’s not the Protestants, it’s the Muslims.”

In response, Muslim groups have told him he is rough around the edges.

“I’m not rough around the edges,” he tells them. “You’re just not used to straight talk.”

They respond by getting angry at him.

Although Muslims occasionally condemn al-Qaida, “Rarely do we have them coming to us and saying, ‘There are three guys in the community that we’re very concerned about,’” one agent says. “They want to fix it inside the community. They’re a closed group, a very, very closed group. It’s part of their culture that they want to settle the problem within their own communities. They’ve actually said that to us, which I then go crazy over.”

On the one hand, “They don’t want anyone to know they have extremists in their community,” the agent says. “Well, beautiful. Except do you read the newspapers? Everyone already knows it. That horse has left the barn. So there’s a lot of talk about engagement, but realistically, we’ve got a long, long way to go.”

At one meeting, a Muslim group suggested having a photo taken of its members with FBI Director Robert Mueller to show their community isn’t a bunch of terrorists and that they are partners in the war on terror.

An agent replied, “Let me make a suggestion: When you bring to my attention real extremists who are here to plan and do something, who are here supporting terrorism, and I work that based on your information, then I promise you, I will have the director stand up on the stage with you.”

To the agent’s amazement, the answer was: “That could never happen. We would lose our constituency. We could never admit to bringing someone to the FBI.”

“Well, we’ve just defined the problem, haven’t we?” the agent told them.

To be sure, some individual Muslims have brought leads to the FBI. That led to FBI cases in Lackawanna, N.Y.; Lodi, Calif.; and Atlanta. But the FBI has found that imams and other community leaders are reluctant to do that.

If the news media filmed imams preaching hated of America in mosques that are public, the number of imams publicly espousing jihad would dwindle to close to zero. Until that happens, Americans must learn to distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys.

“In recent years, U.S. soldiers have fought a common enemy on behalf of and often alongside Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo, Kuwait, Somalia, and elsewhere,” the Wall Street Journal pointed out in an editorial. “The U.S. is fighting a sworn enemy today, just as in World War II American Germans, Italians and Japanese fought sworn U.S. enemies of the same race and religion. Many American Muslims will do the same if we stay focused on the real enemy, and show we have the will to do what’s necessary to find them and stop them.”

---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

So what? That has nothing to do with the argument you're making.

No it doesnt, you brought it up.

dlish · 05-03-2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

I should have said "radical" Muslim & I should have made it more clear that I had just watched that video of the lunatic you said you'd like to slap around.

yeah ill slap that guy around..but ill also pat him on the back for saying it how it is. I agreed with a lot of the things he mentioned, but there were a few things which i disagree with strongly. I dont think he's more looney than the next devout guy sitting next to you in church on sunday.

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 12:50 PM

OK, now I get it.

Sure, Dave. You go ahead feeling good about yourself for distrusting those with brown skin who dress differently and eat icky stuff. After all, at least 10% are out to get YOU.

I'm just going to worry about things that have a higher chance of causing me actual harm, like contaminated food/drink and bad driving.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

yeah ill slap that guy around..but ill also pat him on the back for saying it how it is. I agreed with a lot of the things he mentioned, but there were a few things which i disagree with strongly. I dont think he's more looney than the next devout guy sitting next to you in church on sunday.

I dont go to church or believe in organized religion, this thread is a good example of why.

Jazz, you're just being silly now. Did I mention that I didnt like the way I felt about this? Its not about skin color, its about religious fanatics.

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordEden

It really surprises me that people talk all the time about "What Muslims do, What will their religion cause them to do next" when we have some crazy ass people preaching some intolerant ideals and morals in American churches every Sunday. Stupid/Loud/Crazy people with religion are scarybad, no matter what the religion.

Being scared of muslims is very LOW on my lists of things that I fear on a daily basis. Below falling down the stairs and cracking my neck and The_Jazz showing up at my house to sodomize me with a rubber hose.

Hobbit-truth.

Again, I'm not particularly worried about American jihadis, which I've already conceeded exist. They're just as likely to blow me up as the Tailibubba. As I pointed out early in this thread, the Talibubba, as represented by Timothy McVeigh, has carried out exactly as many deadly attacks on US soil as the jihadis, assuming that Times Square is the work of our local idiots (WTC '93, WTC '01 vs. OK City, Times Square).

I've got a friend who's a pretty devout Muslim telling me that they're not all out to get us. I think I'll trust him over anyone in the media, thanks.

dlish · 05-03-2010, 01:07 PM

Anwar Awlaki was considered a well known moderate within islamic circles. the salafis (aka wahabis) saw him as a moderate by their standards.

nearly every muslim has Anwar awlaki on their computer somewhere either in the form of a lecture, news bulletin etc and is quite popular especially to the non arabic speaking muslim communities despite not having any formal islamic education studies.

because of this he became world renown and it would not have been outside the realm of possibility that he came in contact with nidal hassan through this means along with other possible terrorists.

snowy · 05-03-2010, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I've got a friend who's a pretty devout Muslim telling me that they're not all out to get us. I think I'll trust him over anyone in the media, thanks.

Amen.

Punk.of.Ages · 05-03-2010, 01:15 PM

Man, somebody's really fed into the "Muslims are bad" propaganda that's been spread through this country since 9/11...

Fact is there are people all over this world that kill others for not agreeing with them. Some of them are Muslim, some of them are Christian, Jews, white, black, brown, and so forth. Right now, in the U.S., though, it's best that we all fear the Muslims and their war bringing, whitey hating, child bombing ways. How else is our government going to continuously have citizen support for the oil war?

Muslims are people, man. Some of them do fucked up shit, but most of them don't. No different than anywhere else.

The ignorance really just needs to stop. It doesn't truly justify anything...

dlish · 05-03-2010, 01:23 PM

i wasnt talking about the person sitting next to YOU in church.. just the average joe blogs.

hmm...lets see.. 10% of 1.3 Billion.. what are the odds our very own daveorion is found out?

thats 130,000,000 people out to get him. thats 6 times the entire population of australia. That's pretty high

and for that 'icky food comment' im inclined to put you on that list for good measure jazz

Well i may as well, we're a violent bunch after all, so if we're going to be painted with the same brush....[shrugs] now you've got to be suspicious AND afraid!

The_Jazz · 05-03-2010, 01:35 PM

Note to self: dlish conceeds that he dresses funny.

And that he'll probably kill me with the gas from all that icky food he eats. It's amazing she-lish is still alive.

Dave, seriously. You're a lot smarter than the way you're coming off in this thread.

DaveOrion · 05-03-2010, 01:36 PM

Has anyone seen this? Wow, look at those stats, must be alot of white trash bigots over there, ya think?

Britons are suspicious towards Muslims, study finds - Telegraph

More than half the population would be strongly opposed to a mosque being built in their neighbourhood, the study found.

A large proportion of the country believes that the multicultural experiment has failed, with 52 per cent considering that Britain is deeply divided along religious lines and 45 per cent saying that religious diversity has had a negative impact.

Only a quarter of Britons feel positive towards Muslims, while more than a third report feeling “cool” towards them.

The findings, to be published later this month in the respected British Social Attitudes Survey, show that far greater opposition to Islam than to any other faith and reveal that most people are willing to limit freedom of speech in an attempt to silence religious extremists.

David Voas, professor of population studies at Manchester University, who analysed the data, said that people were becoming intolerant towards all religions because of “the degree to which Islam is perceived as a threat to social cohesion”.

He said: “Muslims deserve to be the focus of policy on social cohesion, because no other group elicits so much disquiet.”

The “size and visibility” of Islamic communities has led to serious concerns about their impact on British society, Prof Voas concludes.

“This apparent threat to national identity (or even, some fear, to security) reduces the willingness to accommodate free expression.

“Opinion is divided, and many people remain tolerant of unpopular speech as well as distinctive dress and religious behaviour, but a large segment of the British population is unhappy about these subcultures.”

Researchers interviewed 4,486 people for the survey, which is published annually by the National Centre for Social Research. They found that respondents with no qualifications were twice as likely to have negative attitudes towards Muslims as with those who had degrees.

The report describes a high level of unease regarding the UK’s Muslim population, estimated at around two million, with many people considering that it poses a threat to the nation’s identity.

While 55 per cent say that they would be “bothered” by the construction of a large mosque in their community, only 15 per cent would be similarly concerned by a large church.

Nevertheless, the research found considerable suspicion towards those of any faith who hold deeply religious views, while there was a widespread reluctance to see matters of faith intruding into the public sphere.

Nearly half (45 per cent) of Britons believe that laws and policy decisions would be worse if more politicians were deeply religious - almost double the number who think that they would be better.

Cynthetiq · 05-03-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

This is a sort of 'Life imitates Art' idea. It certainly makes you wonder about things like this. I've never seen that episode of South Park, but I was recently watching "Armageddon" in the opening scenes where the meteorites hit New York City, always makes me wonder if some domestic terrorist saw this, wrote to Bin Laden and said, "hey, here's an idea...." Also the idea of using planes to attack building was written by Tom Clancy, in the book "Debt of Honor" where an embittered Japan Air Lines pilot flies his Boeing 747 directly into the U.S. Capitol building wiping out nearly the entire United States presidential line of succession including the President, most of Congress, nearly all of the Cabinet, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and all nine Supreme Court Justices.

YouTube - 9/11 Predicted on The Lone Gunman

The Lone Gunmen Pilot episode March 2001.

Anyways, I'm not sold on the muslim-viacom connection, but we'll see as the investigation unfolds.

dippin · 05-03-2010, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

Is this guy significant? Are 10% of the US Mosques really preaching Jihad?

Feds target American-born Muslim cleric for kill or capture

April 7th, 2010

"The U.S. government has targeted American-born Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki to be killed or captured, a U.S. official told CNN Wednesday.

"We would be remiss if we didn't find ways to pursue someone who is a serious threat to this country and has plotted against Americans," the official said.

Al-Awlaki, who is believed to be hiding in Yemen, called last month for jihad against America. He said in an audio message that "America is evil."

His sermons and recordings have been found on the computers of at least a dozen terror suspects in the United States and Britain. In addition, al-Awlaki admits to having communication with U.S. Army Maj. Nidal Hassan, who has been charged in the shooting deaths of 13 people at Ford Hood, Texas, in November."

FBI: 10% of U.S. Mosques Preach Jihad

FBI: 10% of U.S. Mosques Preach Jihad
Tuesday, 10 Nov 2009 12:09 PM
Article Font Size

By: Ronald Kessler

Imams preach jihad and extremism in 10 percent of the 2,000 mosques in the United States, the FBI estimates.

That sums up the problem facing us as we ponder the meaning of Army Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan’s slayings of 13 people at Fort Hood, Texas. Given his association with a pro-al-Qaida imam in northern Virginia and his preoccupation with radical Islamic Web sites, it’s clear that the radical element of Islam influenced Hasan.

On the other hand, those who condemn Muslims in general because of the actions of Hasan and others like him are engaging in prejudice that has no place in America. Indeed, such stereotyping sets back the war on terror, because we need moderate Muslims on our side.

The problem is not the Quran, which is no more incendiary than some passages in the Bible. (Deuteronomy, for example, prescribes stoning to death for those who “served other gods and worshipped them.”) The problem is the radical element that uses the Quran as an excuse to engage in terrorism and the failure of many moderate Muslims to condemn the extremists.

About a quarter of the Muslims in America ages 18 through 29 believe that suicide bombings can be justified, according to a Pew Research Center poll. Generating those attitudes are imams who preach jihad and hatred in American mosques and postings on the Internet, according to FBI counterterrorism officials interviewed for my book “The Terrorist Watch: Inside the Desperate Race to Stop the Next Attack.”

Saying he is being conservative, an FBI counterterrorism official told me in interviews for the book that 1 in 10 imams preach jihad. Before 9/11, the number of mosques where imams preached jihad was even greater than today.

“Those who actively support extremist causes, say America is evil and deserves what it gets, and celebrate the death of soldiers, know they may come to our attention,” an FBI official says. “So they don’t do it as openly now.”

Before 9/11, he says, “There was much more of that because all of it was considered by Justice Department guidelines to be purely protected speech. We do not have incitement laws in America, but once an imam facilitates someone else taking action, he has crossed the line into material support and becomes our business.”

An example was Ali al-Timimi, a spiritual leader at a mosque in Northern Virginia who preached jihad and provided contact information for those who went to Afghanistan for training in terrorist camps. Al-Timimi is serving a life prison term.

The FBI has outreach programs to try to develop sources in the Muslim community and solicit tips, but FBI agents have found little receptivity. They find that Muslims often are in denial about the fact that the terrorists who threaten the U.S. are Muslims.

“I had this discussion with the director of a very prominent Muslim organization here in D.C.,” a frustrated counterterrorism agent says. “And he said, ‘Why are you guys always looking at the Muslim community?’”

The agent began laughing.

“Okay, you know what I’ll do?” the agent said. “I’ll start an Irish squad, or how about a Japanese squad? You want me to waste my time and your taxpayers' dollars going to look at the Irish? They’re not killing Americans. Right now, I’m going to put my money and my people in a place where the threat is.”

The agent tells them to take a look at the cells that the FBI has rolled up in the United States.

“I can name the home-grown cells, all of whom are Muslim, all of whom were seeking to murder Americans,” the agent says. “It’s not the Irish, it’s not the French, it’s not the Catholics, it’s not the Protestants, it’s the Muslims.”

In response, Muslim groups have told him he is rough around the edges.

“I’m not rough around the edges,” he tells them. “You’re just not used to straight talk.”

They respond by getting angry at him.

Although Muslims occasionally condemn al-Qaida, “Rarely do we have them coming to us and saying, ‘There are three guys in the community that we’re very concerned about,’” one agent says. “They want to fix it inside the community. They’re a closed group, a very, very closed group. It’s part of their culture that they want to settle the problem within their own communities. They’ve actually said that to us, which I then go crazy over.”

On the one hand, “They don’t want anyone to know they have extremists in their community,” the agent says. “Well, beautiful. Except do you read the newspapers? Everyone already knows it. That horse has left the barn. So there’s a lot of talk about engagement, but realistically, we’ve got a long, long way to go.”

At one meeting, a Muslim group suggested having a photo taken of its members with FBI Director Robert Mueller to show their community isn’t a bunch of terrorists and that they are partners in the war on terror.

An agent replied, “Let me make a suggestion: When you bring to my attention real extremists who are here to plan and do something, who are here supporting terrorism, and I work that based on your information, then I promise you, I will have the director stand up on the stage with you.”

To the agent’s amazement, the answer was: “That could never happen. We would lose our constituency. We could never admit to bringing someone to the FBI.”

“Well, we’ve just defined the problem, haven’t we?” the agent told them.

To be sure, some individual Muslims have brought leads to the FBI. That led to FBI cases in Lackawanna, N.Y.; Lodi, Calif.; and Atlanta. But the FBI has found that imams and other community leaders are reluctant to do that.

If the news media filmed imams preaching hated of America in mosques that are public, the number of imams publicly espousing jihad would dwindle to close to zero. Until that happens, Americans must learn to distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys.

“In recent years, U.S. soldiers have fought a common enemy on behalf of and often alongside Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo, Kuwait, Somalia, and elsewhere,” the Wall Street Journal pointed out in an editorial. “The U.S. is fighting a sworn enemy today, just as in World War II American Germans, Italians and Japanese fought sworn U.S. enemies of the same race and religion. Many American Muslims will do the same if we stay focused on the real enemy, and show we have the will to do what’s necessary to find them and stop them.”

---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:31 PM ----------

No it doesnt, you brought it up.

That article is BS, which is what you'd expect from newsmax.

It intentionally conflates things. It conflates the FBI agent he spoke to with "the FBI," and it conflates "10% of all mosques" to "10% of all Muslims." All this based on nothing more than their guesses.

And it also conflates "Jihad" with the sort of violent holy war that some groups preach. Jihad is an abstract concept with as many meanings as, well, any religious term usually has.

05-03-2010, 07:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Did An Episode Of 'South Park' Inspire New York Car Bomb? I brought up something similar in another thread which was OT so I thought this story might revitalize that discussion. What do you think about Muslims that live in the US, yet seem to have nothing but jihad on their minds? Do you agree with the opinions expressed here A Letter from an American Airlines Pilot whether the letter is authentic or not. Did An Episode Of 'South Park' Inspire New York Car Bomb? - Los Angeles News - LA Daily Islamic group that warned creators of 'South Park' denies involvement in Times Square bomb plot abu talhah al amrikee posts - Crimesider - CBS News Check out the 3rd video down, did they inspire this attempted car bombing? Revolution Muslim I saw the guy in that video on the news, it makes me sick to see these people in NYC spewing their hate. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

05-03-2010, 07:30 AM	#2 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I'll admit that I only looked at one of the links you posted above, DaveOrion, because by and large the remainder of them aren't from reputable news sources. Additionally, the one link I did look at, from CBS News, admitted that all of this is speculation. Speculations such as the above only give those with jihad in their minds more reason to embrace jihad, and they encourage segregation, unreasonable fear, and bigotry against Muslims. We shouldn't assume or speculate anything--we should wait to see what the evidence tells us. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

05-03-2010, 07:40 AM	#3 (permalink)
Lucifer Husband of Seamaiden Location: Nova Scotia	This is a sort of 'Life imitates Art' idea. It certainly makes you wonder about things like this. I've never seen that episode of South Park, but I was recently watching "Armageddon" in the opening scenes where the meteorites hit New York City, always makes me wonder if some domestic terrorist saw this, wrote to Bin Laden and said, "hey, here's an idea...." Also the idea of using planes to attack building was written by Tom Clancy, in the book "Debt of Honor" where an embittered Japan Air Lines pilot flies his Boeing 747 directly into the U.S. Capitol building wiping out nearly the entire United States presidential line of succession including the President, most of Congress, nearly all of the Cabinet, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and all nine Supreme Court Justices. __________________ I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. - Job 30:29 1123, 6536, 5321

05-03-2010, 07:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Thus far, I think that the evidence is pointing to Times Square being the work of the Talibubba, not the Taliban. We don't need no illegals takin' jorbs from us good, decent white terrorists! But on topic, I don't think much about "Muslims that live in the US, yet seem to have nothing but jihad on their minds?" Honestly, they're entitled to their opinions. It's sort of the foundation of the country. We've got enough native-born folks here at TFP that are ready for an armed insurrection against the government, and I don't have anything against their opinions either. I don't agree with them and I don't particularly like those opinions, but I don't spend much time or energy thinking about them outside of threads where they're relevant. Lots of folks, dark skinned and light skinned, have it in for the US government and the American people. Let's all remember that the second largest terrorist act on US soil was the work of one of our homegrown dickweeds. And that lots of their ilk have been slithering around recently. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-03-2010, 07:54 AM	#5 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	The link I posted to that Muslim revolutionary site had a page set up explicitly to incite violence based on that South Park episode. There was a picture of Theo Van Gogh's dead body at the top of the page. The linky is dead now, much like Van Gogh. http://www.revolutionmuslim.com/inde...d=52&Itemid=95 __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

05-03-2010, 08:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	The problem with the Talibubba theory is that an Al Qaeda affiliate has already claimed credit. The potential bomber's race has little relevance in this regard: Balkan and Chechen terrorists have been working with AQ in Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Caususes, and central Europe for several years now. Several of the "Iraqi" terrorists captured on video beheading US and other foreign contractors beginning in 2004 appeared to be distinctly light-skinned, leading to speculation that the Iraqi insurgency had been penetrated by Chechen operators, which caused quite a fright back when Shamil Basayev was still running the show. And of course, lots of Afghan and Iranian folks are quite fair-skinned as well. Not discounting the Talibubba theory, but some other factors need to be considered as well, as noted above.

05-03-2010, 08:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Dunedan: conceeded. We just don't know who did it. No one can rule out the Taliban, but a light-skinned middle-aged man certainly does insert the Talibubba into the equation. We'll see who it plays out, but were I jaded enough to bet on the outcome, I'll go with the home-grown variety. Perhaps it's a frustrated stage actor with a grudge against an old boyfriend. As we've seen historically, claiming responsibility for an action doesn't necessarily mean that the claimer was responsible. Dave, if a terrorist kills me for whatever rationalisation s/he theorizes, I'm still dead. I'm sure there are jihadis in the US. Honestly, until they're actually here in front of me doing something, I'm not going to spend too much energy worrying about them. I've got better things to do. And the jihadis are simply another placeholder in a long line of folks that think the US and all its citizens are evil - where was the Rev. Phelps on Sunday? __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-03-2010, 10:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I'm pretty sure that dlish hasn't killed anyone. And he's been invited to stay at my house (logistics kept that from happening but doesn't change anything as far as I'm concerned). I'm not worried to the point that I'll willingly and enthusiastically expose my kids to him. And he's a fairly devout guy. Some leaders teach fanatical shit. The vast majority of others don't. Then again, a lot of white Babtist ministers used to teach that it was just fine to lynch a black man in Mississippi. I've heard that from many first person accounts. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-03-2010, 10:43 AM	#12 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Cmon, you know him which makes that more than slightly unfair. I know plenty of people of various races, colors & creeds and have exposed my daughter to them, which wasnt my point and I'm sure you know that. This isnt about something that happened long ago in the South (more very minor Southern Bashing?) I'm taking about something that is happening right now, as we speak. How exactly am I supposed to know...........ya know, nevermind. Would you let that guy in the video spend the night at your house, expose your kids to him? __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

05-03-2010, 11:00 AM	#14 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Southern bashing - despite living in Chicago, I'm probably more Southern than you, Dave. I grew up in East Tennessee, so I know the difference between a hillbilly and a redneck, and one of the people that can give me the first person account of lynching justified from the pulpet is my father. It was only a couple of generations ago - well within living memory - that killing a black man for a small slight was quasi-legal. If you want to have a discussion about racial politics in Southern Mississippi from 1900 to present, I'm loaded for bear, including some less-than-stellar family history (my one-legged, one-armed paternal great-grandfather was not a particularly nice human being even before he lost limbs in separate incidents). I consider myself centrally placed to do all sorts of Southern bashing since I'm related to a bunch of the morons who did the things to deserve the bashing in the first place. The guy in the video may or may not have done anything other than change his shirt in the wrong place at the wrong time. He could have tried to kill a bunch of people, in which case he should consider himself permanently uninvited to Casa de los Jazz. He may not have, in which case, if he's not an asshole and is fun to be around, he might find himself invited. I don't know him, so at this stage, he's not invited. Dave, you're suspicious of "those" religious folks based on something that they may not even agree with. There is no central authority in Islam the way that there is in Christianity, so "leaders" are generally self-appointed. Generally the Muslims that are angry with the US are angry for some pretty fucking stupid shit we've done, but they're angry with the US government, not the people. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-03-2010, 11:50 AM	#18 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Dave, what innocent people have paid outside of 9/11? I'll wait. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-03-2010, 12:17 PM	#23 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I think more civilians have been killed than soldiers, Iraq Body Count __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

05-03-2010, 12:50 PM	#29 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	OK, now I get it. Sure, Dave. You go ahead feeling good about yourself for distrusting those with brown skin who dress differently and eat icky stuff. After all, at least 10% are out to get YOU. I'm just going to worry about things that have a higher chance of causing me actual harm, like contaminated food/drink and bad driving. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-03-2010, 01:07 PM	#32 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	Anwar Awlaki was considered a well known moderate within islamic circles. the salafis (aka wahabis) saw him as a moderate by their standards. nearly every muslim has Anwar awlaki on their computer somewhere either in the form of a lecture, news bulletin etc and is quite popular especially to the non arabic speaking muslim communities despite not having any formal islamic education studies. because of this he became world renown and it would not have been outside the realm of possibility that he came in contact with nidal hassan through this means along with other possible terrorists. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-03-2010, 01:15 PM	#34 (permalink)
Punk.of.Ages Forming Location: ....a state of pure inebriation.	Man, somebody's really fed into the "Muslims are bad" propaganda that's been spread through this country since 9/11... Fact is there are people all over this world that kill others for not agreeing with them. Some of them are Muslim, some of them are Christian, Jews, white, black, brown, and so forth. Right now, in the U.S., though, it's best that we all fear the Muslims and their war bringing, whitey hating, child bombing ways. How else is our government going to continuously have citizen support for the oil war? Muslims are people, man. Some of them do fucked up shit, but most of them don't. No different than anywhere else. The ignorance really just needs to stop. It doesn't truly justify anything... __________________ "The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager "Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

05-03-2010, 01:23 PM	#35 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	i wasnt talking about the person sitting next to YOU in church.. just the average joe blogs. hmm...lets see.. 10% of 1.3 Billion.. what are the odds our very own daveorion is found out? thats 130,000,000 people out to get him. thats 6 times the entire population of australia. That's pretty high and for that 'icky food comment' im inclined to put you on that list for good measure jazz Well i may as well, we're a violent bunch after all, so if we're going to be painted with the same brush....[shrugs] now you've got to be suspicious AND afraid! __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-03-2010, 01:35 PM	#36 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Note to self: dlish conceeds that he dresses funny. And that he'll probably kill me with the gas from all that icky food he eats. It's amazing she-lish is still alive. Dave, seriously. You're a lot smarter than the way you're coming off in this thread. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-03-2010, 01:36 PM	#37 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Has anyone seen this? Wow, look at those stats, must be alot of white trash bigots over there, ya think? Britons are suspicious towards Muslims, study finds - Telegraph More than half the population would be strongly opposed to a mosque being built in their neighbourhood, the study found. A large proportion of the country believes that the multicultural experiment has failed, with 52 per cent considering that Britain is deeply divided along religious lines and 45 per cent saying that religious diversity has had a negative impact. Only a quarter of Britons feel positive towards Muslims, while more than a third report feeling “cool” towards them. The findings, to be published later this month in the respected British Social Attitudes Survey, show that far greater opposition to Islam than to any other faith and reveal that most people are willing to limit freedom of speech in an attempt to silence religious extremists. David Voas, professor of population studies at Manchester University, who analysed the data, said that people were becoming intolerant towards all religions because of “the degree to which Islam is perceived as a threat to social cohesion”. He said: “Muslims deserve to be the focus of policy on social cohesion, because no other group elicits so much disquiet.” The “size and visibility” of Islamic communities has led to serious concerns about their impact on British society, Prof Voas concludes. “This apparent threat to national identity (or even, some fear, to security) reduces the willingness to accommodate free expression. “Opinion is divided, and many people remain tolerant of unpopular speech as well as distinctive dress and religious behaviour, but a large segment of the British population is unhappy about these subcultures.” Researchers interviewed 4,486 people for the survey, which is published annually by the National Centre for Social Research. They found that respondents with no qualifications were twice as likely to have negative attitudes towards Muslims as with those who had degrees. The report describes a high level of unease regarding the UK’s Muslim population, estimated at around two million, with many people considering that it poses a threat to the nation’s identity. While 55 per cent say that they would be “bothered” by the construction of a large mosque in their community, only 15 per cent would be similarly concerned by a large church. Nevertheless, the research found considerable suspicion towards those of any faith who hold deeply religious views, while there was a widespread reluctance to see matters of faith intruding into the public sphere. Nearly half (45 per cent) of Britons believe that laws and policy decisions would be worse if more politicians were deeply religious - almost double the number who think that they would be better. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...