Suzz04

i'm not sure if it was said, but what of the people that say they are going to commit suicide and actually do with a "success" or a "failed" attemp? i have personally seen this happen.

actually i'll admit up and tell that it was myself. i said it, did it, but it was a failure. yes, the state of mind was in a irrational way. under serious amounts of stress combined with different factors. details? how did i manage to fail at my attempt? no, i don't think that is a explanation i want to share.

don't naturally assume someone who says they're going to is a cry for help. sometimes, they really do follow through, whether or not they "succeeded" or "failed"

to give my opinion on it so as to not have completely derailed the thread. help someone prevent it if they say it. keep watch around family and friends for signs that they're not saying it and could be a possible. sometimes stopping it will make them grateful they didn't. sometimes not. i have my days where i don't say a word about the past and wish that i hadn't "failed". did someone come to stop me? no.

but, as for those that are in a state of like some said, terminally ill cancer, or they're have some quite serious problems that is only prolonging the inevitable, assisted would be something that they should be given a choice of. some may wish to stay around to the end to spend more time with the family. some don't wish to stay in their state of being with it being a torture to themselves. selfish? yes.

(trying to start getting into posting more but i feel sometimes i kill out a thread since i'm the last one and no one else says anything else lol)

__________________
Quantum Cat Theory:
Upon hearing the sound of a can being opened,
it becomes possible for a cat to travel faster than the speed of light.

cellophanedeity

I suppose you're right. I hadn't considered it like that, I suppose.

It still seems to me that suicide is one of the worst things you could do to the people around you.

__________________
who am I to refuse the universe?
-Leonard Cohen, Beautiful Losers

genuinegirly

Thanks for weighing in on this one, Suzz - these words mean much more coming from someone who has been there. I don't think it will be much of a threadjack if you share a bit more with us.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Suzz04

EDIT: took out the explanation since it seems to have killed the thread after i shared it.

__________________
Quantum Cat Theory:
Upon hearing the sound of a can being opened,
it becomes possible for a cat to travel faster than the speed of light.

Clark Kent

I don't see why anyone should be allowed to interfere with anyone else's life. As long as someone's activities don't impinge on you, leave them the fuck alone.

Zeraph

I generally don't think we should besides educating them/giving them options. I think assisted suicide should be legal too. But why do we? Because we don't like death and it is very hard on their loved ones.

Xerxys

... don't want to clean up. Death is expensive. Think of the burial costs.

FelixP

QFT.

Quit wasting everyone's time and just do what you need to do. And to the social worker: Anyone who calls a "crisis hotline" is not actually serious about killing his or herself. They're just being emo. Seriously. If someone wants to die, they will die. They will put a 12 gauge in their mouth and blow their brains out. They will find some abandoned house and OD there so no one will find them. They will lock themselves in their room, barricade the doors and windows, and then slit their wrists/throat so no one can get to them in time.

Of course, I'm referring to people who "attempt" suicide regularly, or have these thoughts regularly. I'm not gonna hold it against a guy if he tries to puss out once in his life.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

ring

"Through early morning fog I see, visions of the things to be
The pains that are withheld for me, I realize and I can see . . .
That suicide is painless, it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make all our little joys relate
Without that ever-present hate, but now I know that it’s too late,

and . . .That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The game of life is hard to play. I’m gonna lose it anyway.

The losing card I’ll someday lay so this is all I have to say.

That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The only way to win is cheat and lay it down before I’m beat,

and to another give my seat for that’s the only painless feat.

That suicide is painless, it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

The sword of time will pierce our skins, it doesn’t hurt when it begins

But as it works its way on in the pain grows stronger . . . watch it grin, but . . .
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.

A brave man once requested me, to answer questions that are key
'Is it to be or not to be' and I replied 'oh why ask me?'
That suicide is painless it brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.
And you can do the same thing if you choose."

ametc

Because they want me to get a job and be a part of functioning society. I'm sorry, Man, but I just gotta go. Hell is awaiting my arrival.



I wonder why people want to stop me from dying, and then they go and make my life worse by nagging me and telling me how stupid and awful I am.

Why am I in a group therapy that tells us to ignore bad thoughts but focus on good thoughts? And they want me to believe in a higher power.. which I already do. But, I'm too selfish to care what they say... I just know I should've died when I tried, and they only saved me because they happened to find me and they were like, "Shit, I don't want to go to jail."

Do people really care about me? Yeah, but my disease tells me no. In order to function properly, I need somebody to give me a chance. That's what group therapy does. Also, not only does suicide affect me.. it affects everybody that loves me or cares for me. They can go into depression, too, after my death and then they won't function properly. It's a chain reaction.

Stopping one suicide could eliminate all of that.

Baraka_Guru

Hey, do you want to know what else weakens our species (or, more accurately, our society)? The above sentiment.

Those of strong character generally want to help people, even strangers--that's one reason why we want to prevent suicide. Others don't give a damn.

"QFT" my ass.

(Where T = "truth.")

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

FelixP

Sorry BG, but I disagree. I'd help a stranger in need-I've helped people escape from two different house fires. But if someone wants to die-REALLY wants to die-then who am I to stop them? And if they don't really want to die, then they shouldn't be attempting suicide to begin with. Logic, really. I've often discussed this with my sister (who has "tried" committing suicide numerous times, not to mention self-mutilation) and we disagree. She claims that one of the times she really did want to die, and I responded that if she wanted to die, she would've found a way, and that it was probably just a display of attention-seeking behaviour.

Personally, I think the inherent selfishness and lack of perseverance involved with suicide detracts far more from the human race than I ever could.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

Baraka_Guru

Felix,

I could be wrong--I often am--but I stand by my previous statement that a healthy human being generally wants to live, and someone wanting to die, especially if they are otherwise in good physical health, probably has something wrong with them psychologically and should probably get help, even if they don't seek it. There are many people who aren't even suicidal who should get help even if they don't seek it.

You make a good point; however, I'm not sure what you say would always apply.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ring

Thanks Baracka, you said it well.

Felix? I am hearing you somewhat.
What I am hearing is the pain and frustration and the anger of having someone
you love try to leave you.

People that hastily judge others,cross them off a list, label them this or that,
are the ones that seem weaker and lazier to me.

I felt helpless, powerless, frightened, lonely & frustrated, and Abandoned,when my ex-husband attempted suicide
at least 5 times while we were married.

It can wear a person down after while, I know,
but I could never lose the empathy and compassion for what that
person was feeling.

When I hear people judging it as 'weakness-selfishness'
what I really hear, is the fear. The fear of going to that place of understanding.
Understanding what another persons pain consists of, makes us confront and acknowledge, our own.

Punk.of.Ages

Sorry, I've been pretty much MIA for like a week, so I have a lot of answering to do...

Weakness, indeed. To kill oneself shows one cannot hack this world. Guess what, shit's hard. Either get a fucking helmet or get out.

Lives are really not worth that much. People die all the time. Most people don't have a choice when or how they go. People who commit suicide determine it for themselves. They take it into their own hands. i.e. It's the easy way out.

If you want the easy way out, who the hell am I to keep you from it?

If they are genetically crippled or sick, I believe*, they should be removed from the gene pool. Especially since human beings have negated natural selection (Which is what brings up problems like suicide in the first place.) from occurring amongst our race for the most part.

I feel the same no matter who it is. My own sister has had suicide issues in the past. She's always gotten the same advice from me as anyone else:

Either go through with it, or stop it.

Don't get me wrong, if she went through with it, I'd mourn her death, but how can I feel too bad for anybody that took life into their own hands and went with the easy/selfish way out?

You're right, I don't give a damn about people who commit suicide. People die. That's all there is to it. Whether you go out from some freak accident or by your own hand, you're dead just the same. At least, with suicide, you had a choice in the matter.

Overall, I feel* that suicide is the same as calling it quits. It's a weak, self-indulgent way to leave this world. If that's how you'd like to let people remember you, be my guest.
_____________________________
*Note to reader: Please remember that these are my beliefs. The beliefs of a moderately educated (at best), middle class (at best) human. I don't mean to offend; I'm just answering a question.

That is what this is all about, isn't it?

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Baraka_Guru

This is a tidbit from the Canadian Mental Health Association:
Suicide Facts & Myths

This isn't necessarily directed at you, P.o.A., but more so at the thread. I don't think the decision to commit suicide is a rational one. I don't think it's usually a decision based on thrills or excitement either. It's mainly a decision based on pain, suffering, or anguish. Anyone suffering like that should get help. Making the decision to commit suicide isn't the same as making other sorts of decisions. It's not necessarily about "being unable to hack it in life." It can be spurred by severe mental dysfunction caused by some kind of trauma.

I don't blame anyone for taking a steadfast negative view of suicide. Mental health issues of all sorts have negative stigmas against them, mainly because they're difficult to understand and impossible to see. It's along the same lines as people who think depressives should simply "snap out of it" and "get their shit together." It's not that easy.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Punk.of.Ages

It's not that easy because people keep saying it isn't...

I should point out that I've "been there and done that". I've been severely depressed. I've been on the verge of suicide. I've been, the way I feel about it, weak.

You know what brought me out of it? My own strength of mind. I didn't need coddling, meds, or a lobotomy. I just needed to take shit into perspective and realize I was being weak. I had to gather my strength.

Rereading my posts, I've realized I'm coming off as though I'm trying to say, "Tell them to fuck off and die.", and I'm really not. I'm just saying I don't think suicidals should be coddled and given special care. I feel the most effective help is to let them know they're being weak and need to find some strength, however they feel that needs to be done.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Baraka_Guru

Punk.of.Ages, what you have done is remarkable. Knowing this about you, I have a new-found respect for your character. Actually, I must go so far as to say that you are an inspiration to me. I, too, have had my own challenges--dealing with severe emotional abuse--but I was never so burdened as you. Even so, I have had many yo-yo experiences, and I can relate to having to delve into the strength of mind to overcome it.

I don't think everyone can do this to the same degree. Mental health issues aren't only about behavoural patterns and habits. There are also issues of chemical and otherwise physiological dispositions that cause problems. Sometimes people really should simply be medicated if they have severe issues and there is evidence there is something wrong with their "wiring."

But I agree with you. I don't think those struggling with suicide should be "coddled." That doesn't help anyone. I'm sure there are programs, however, that work towards guiding the patients by empowering them, rather than pushing them into something or catering to their habitual desires.

Do you think there is merit in programs that help empower these people to help themselves? Is that a kind of help you would support?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Punk.of.Ages

I can support that kind of help. The kind that helps people who are truly in a place where they need it and aren't just there to feed on the pity of others. It's just like anything else; you have to be willing to help yourself before anybody can help you.

My sentiments toward suicide are actually very akin to the ones I hold toward overdoses.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Baraka_Guru

Well, I think the two can be related. People use drugs to escape painful things as well. Any program with any merit would do what I think we both would want them to do, which is encourage self-healing.

Any program worth its weight in salt is nowhere near a pity party.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

there are some very basic problems with much of the eugenics-style arguments above (you know, fuck em for the sake of the gene pool).

first off, there is no human race in general. you can refer to an abstraction like "the set containing all human beings" but it's just an abstraction. in the actually existing world, there are people in particular situations--social broadly construed, personal (however that is understood--and it's a variable) within that. in the broader social contexts, the principal criterion you are talking about through this bizarre-o word "strength" is functionality. it is simply not the case that social groups privilege anything like an optimized set of capacities if by optimized you mean relative to some abstract or general standard. functionality is a relative term. relative to the modes of production. relative to patterns of family organization. relative to a lot of factors. it is ayn rand bullshit to conflate, say, the particular capacities that adaptation to capitalism (another abstraction, really) with some overall notion of "human progress" or its derivatives. adaptation to a particular environment, a particular context, is adaptation to a particular environment or context. thats it. any more general statement is arbitrary.

there is no material perspective informed by a notion of "gene pool"---the notion of gene pool is a theoretical construct, a noun-effect. even the relations between genetic structures and actual capacities is not fully understood. what orienting yourself around this rhetoric leads you to is a cheap spenserian notion--you know, social darwinism. it has the aesthetic benefit of making you feel all pseudo-scientific, as if this notion of "gene pool" gave you access to an extra-social reality. well, it doesn't. it gives you access to a series of rhetorical effects. you use it to rationalize attitudes that neither come from these effects or rely on them for a kind of "proof"--you use them because they're aesthetically appealing.

the idea that the most adapted to a given context are the strongest--the ubermenschen--has a pretty foul political history.

as for why it makes sense to try to prevent suicide---first most follow from transient situations. second because there's a definition of what and equitable society is that contends it's measure lay in how that society cares for it's most vulnerable people. it's no wonder, for example, that so many americans buy into social darwinism and all its fake-scientific trappings--the united states is a pretty shitty place when evaluated by that definition. and it's easier to run away from it than try to think of how it might be different.

it's probably true that if someone really wants to kill themselves that the question of stopping them is moot.
and it's also true, in my view, that folk who are in hopeless, painful medical situations should be able to choose to end their lives.

but in between...i dunno. i think it's better to at least try to help, as a society, than not to. i think it's an ethical imperative. but that's just my view.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ametc

Suicide is different for different people. For some it's a way out, for others they really want to die. Their brain chemistry is totally different from a normal person's.



In my experience, it's all about stopping the cycle of depression in order to create a more functionable society.

trupthi01

I think the best way is to make the person realise that what he / she is doing is not right. its not possible to stop the person unless n until they realise it. vecause all the time no one wll be thr to stop him in the last min.

Suzz04

in regards to my prior post with my first hand experience of this, i'm going to keep it short. if you want futher details message me.

i stated that once before just because someone says they're going to commit suicide, is not always true at being a cry for help. and that sometimes, they really do follow through after that statement. never assume that statement is just a cry for help.

in my own personal experience at attempting, i had been going through quite some stress over a 3 or 4 month period. it was just after the holidays, i had just lost my boyfriend to my best friend in my own home. my child was off on vacation with her dad for the week. i called the ex boyfriend said it, and followed through.

no, i didn't succeed obviously.... but i did go through with it. how the hell i survived i'm not sure i'll ever know. there were alot of things that went about with mine that i shouldn't have survived the attempt. so, there was a cry for help, if you want to call it that. there was no one to intervene or to talk to me to rationalize it all before i tried.

i spent a week in the hospital under my psychiatrist, was on a new medicine since apparently the other wasn't working. i'm not saying that i've had no problems since then. i've had alot of bad days and some good days. 2 and half years later i'm still taking it one day at a time and how things come about in their own ways.

i have more support in the past 2 years than i did for the 5 prior to that time.

and as trupthi01 said, no one will always be around to stop them at the last minute. with or without the cry. everyone has made valid points as well as presented some very good opinions and questions on the subject.

everyone is different when it's their mind when it comes to suicide. some have a chemical problem and need the medicine to help them. sometimes we can't just go "ok i'm not going to be depressed any more". sometimes we need the outside help and medication to be stable and continue to be as well.

if you have questions, feel free to message me.

__________________
Quantum Cat Theory:
Upon hearing the sound of a can being opened,
it becomes possible for a cat to travel faster than the speed of light.