07-21-2009, 07:34 PM | #1 (permalink) |
part of the problem
Location: hic et ubique
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why do we prevent suicide?
ok, i'm serious here.
when someone claims they are going to commit suicide, or says they really want to and seem pretty serious about it, why do we spend such effort trying to prevent them from doing it? really, why?
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onward to mayhem! |
07-21-2009, 07:46 PM | #3 (permalink) | |
Une petite chou
Location: With All Your Base
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i don't.
people are going to do what they want to do. my job is to make sure that people have information to make their own decisions. they ask me something, i'll give them the best answer i can. i'm actually for assisted suicide, which i think we're not offering enough. but it never really made much sense to me... just makes me sad sometimes that people want to give up. but if they really, truly do, i don't see how i can stop them? except kids. i've had to call the cops a couple of times to baker act a few kids. but i don't think that they were truly old/cognitively aware enough to understand the consequences of their actions.
__________________
Here's how life works: you either get to ask for an apology or you get to shoot people. Not both. House Quote:
The question isn’t who is going to let me; it’s who is going to stop me. Ayn Rand
Last edited by noodle; 07-21-2009 at 07:46 PM.. Reason: a rogue "actually"... |
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07-21-2009, 07:48 PM | #4 (permalink) |
Forming
Location: ....a state of pure inebriation.
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Because the human race seems to think that weakness deserves special care and priority above all else.
It's bullshit, and it makes our species, as a whole, weaker. If you can't hack this world, please do off yourself, preferably before you reproduce.
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"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager "Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike |
07-21-2009, 08:01 PM | #6 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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For me, it would depend on the situation. Someone that is depressed and wanting to commit suicide is a lot different from someone with a terminal disease living in constant pain.
The depressed person could have a mental condition or just be a self-centred ass (or points in-between). Regardless, with time, this person will likely change their point of view on suicide. The terminal patient living in constant pain? Why prolong the inevitable?
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
07-21-2009, 08:02 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I'm not against euthanasia or suicide, but I don't think it's as black and white as yes and no. |
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07-21-2009, 08:14 PM | #8 (permalink) | |
Insane
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I am a social worker so you can label me touchy-feely all you like but....I also volunteer my time answering the phone's for a crisis center. A 24/7 hotline anyone can call, at anytime, with what they are personally experiencing and defining as a crisis. We also answer the NSPL lifeline..... POINT: we prevent suicide because human life has value, no matter who you are. Mental illness and addiction can cause the mind and psyche to play horrible crimes on one's own mind. It is our moral responsibility to love our neighbors when they are unable to love themselves. Imagine your sister, brother, mother, cousin, boss, anyone you have experienced a positive interaction with....now imagine that they were hurting so horribly inside they saw no other alternative. Depression can happen to ANYONE, don't think that mental illness only affects "those people" you see on the corner begging for change and talking to themselves. "WEAKNESS" are you kidding me??? Suicide takes strength you can't even imagine, worse it takes everything and nothing, complete absence of self. Which is exactly why those 'weak' people choose this path, they can no longer feel or identify with anyone or anything and truly believe they and those they leave behind will be better off. I have never felt (as one of those left behind) like I was better off; nor have I ever heard someone seeking my counseling that they felt better off. And PS: suicide and assisted suicide in circumstances of terminal and painful-long term illness are completely different subjects and should be treated as such.
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* I do not believe that struggles are a sign of life falling apart, but rather a step of life falling into place. * |
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07-21-2009, 08:18 PM | #9 (permalink) |
part of the problem
Location: hic et ubique
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charlatan and will -
you both brought up depression/state of mind. lets say someone is depressed, not in their right mind. let's say they want to off themselves. at that moment in time, for them, its really bad and suicide is the only way out, so why prevent them? we can say "they will change their mind tomorrow, they are confused" but at that moment, whatever they are feeling is the truth, and if they did off themselves, they wouldn't be around to regret it and say "oops, i overreacted there a bit."
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onward to mayhem! |
07-21-2009, 08:18 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: My head.
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I'm with Will. A mistake that cannot be undone has to be prevented. Suicidal thoughts are more than always a chemical imbalance. It's an illness. Euthanasia is a question of do the means justify the ends. But a suicidal person is more than often sick and can be helped.
Dang' this forum moves fast ... Quote:
Last edited by Xerxys; 07-21-2009 at 08:22 PM.. |
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07-21-2009, 08:25 PM | #11 (permalink) | |
part of the problem
Location: hic et ubique
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Quote:
i'm not trying to be a dick about it, i'm not questioning this is how you feel or this is what you believe, i'm not saying you are wrong. obviously others think this, that is why we have to watch patients overnight in the ER when they come in on attempted suicides. i ask "why don't we just let them go do their thing?" just because some people think and believe this doesn't mean we all do, or that we have to subscribe to it. you might think my life has value, i might disagree. who are you to tell me i can't off myself? (i don't want to, i'm just asking as a point of clarification) ---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 PM ---------- lets, for the sake of keeping it on some kind of track, not include euthanasia. i'm not talking assisted suicide, i'm talking someone thinks their life is shit and they just want to die and end it all.
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onward to mayhem! |
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07-21-2009, 08:26 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
Une petite chou
Location: With All Your Base
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just a side note since i brought it up... i view euthanasia and assisted suicide as different.
i support assisted suicide not only for the terminally ill. i was not speaking of it only in terms of being available only to those living with long-term illness. i, too, am a social worker... for now. but i don't feel that i have to love everyone. nor do i feel that i must save everyone or even can. mental illness can be just as painful as physical and i don't really have the right to tell someone whether or not they're better off being physically here. i subscribe to "do no harm" to a point. i'll never encourage it and i'll follow through with the responsibilities that i am prescribed by my chosen profession, but outside of my job, my views are very different. and they are mine. i was asked and i shared. and i'll not look down upon anyone else's thoughts on the subject. no one is right or wrong. we just are. edit: okay, definitely moving too fast. my bad on the assisted suicide. but i tried to clarify. for those who say, "it'll pass"... what if suicidal ideations don't? what if they continue to feel them and continue to be depressed? is it okay then?
__________________
Here's how life works: you either get to ask for an apology or you get to shoot people. Not both. House Quote:
The question isn’t who is going to let me; it’s who is going to stop me. Ayn Rand
Last edited by noodle; 07-21-2009 at 08:28 PM.. |
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07-21-2009, 08:31 PM | #13 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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A scenario: Someone is depressed (i.e. mentally ill) and decides they are going to kill someone else. Do you stop them?
According to your point of view, "at that moment in time, for them, its really bad and suicide (or in my case, murder) is the only way out, so why prevent them?" You suggest also suggest that human life might have to be seen as valuable so who is to say one life is more valuable than other?
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
07-21-2009, 08:38 PM | #14 (permalink) | |
part of the problem
Location: hic et ubique
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Quote:
i would stop the murder because it involves another human who might not want to be killed at that moment. no matter if the murderer is mentally ill or just angry or whatever. it involves another, so consent is required. (not to get off track....do you remember years ago that german guy who paid someone to kill him and eat him, or something like that? two consenting adults, i see nothing wrong with it). suicide is just one person doing what he wants to his own body. ---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ---------- you were asked and you did share and i thank you, so don't apologize for stating your opinion, i want to hear what others think about this no matter what they think, i just want to know.
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onward to mayhem! Last edited by squeeeb; 07-21-2009 at 08:36 PM.. |
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07-21-2009, 08:56 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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07-21-2009, 09:34 PM | #16 (permalink) |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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Because no one wants to clean up the resulting mess.
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
07-21-2009, 10:11 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
sufferable
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Also, one's death affects families, friends, and others. We dont want that hardship for them. And what Bill O'Rights said.
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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata Last edited by girldetective; 07-21-2009 at 10:31 PM.. |
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07-21-2009, 10:14 PM | #18 (permalink) |
I have eaten the slaw
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I don't understand this insistence on someone being in their right mind. We don't live in the objective world, we live in the subjective world of our minds. Who else has the right to tell you whether continued suffering is worth the chance of changing that subjective world, especially if they aren't capable of seeing that world?
I can see an argument for stopping someone temporarily to try and correct what you percieve as misinformation on their part, but I can't envision a justification for overruling someone's judgement or perception that doesn't necessitate a severe reduction of the validity of differing viewpoints.
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And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you. |
07-21-2009, 11:05 PM | #19 (permalink) |
Tilted
Location: London, UK
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What is it they say? Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem?
In order to commit suicide, you would need to be in an altered state of mine. Depressed, angry, in agony. To end your own life goes against every natural instinct that we have. It causes a world of pain, guilt and regret to those left behind. I know two people who have considered suicide at least once in their lives. Now, years later, they wouldn't dream of it. They have a lot to live for. I'm sure their families are living better lives because of it, too. So is it worth it to try and save someone who's seriously committing suicide? Of course is fucking is. They're human, they're just in a lot of agony right now, and they're not seeing clearly. Perhaps all they want is for someone to try and stop them.
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Smile - it's the second best thing you can do with your lips. |
07-21-2009, 11:11 PM | #20 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Perhaps selfishness might also be a motivation. I know if I could go back in time and prevent my father from committing suicide I would do it. I'd rather have my father alive than dead.
In his case, I see his depression as a no different than cancer. I would want to save him from death from either affliction.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
07-22-2009, 01:09 AM | #22 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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So Dani and Punk... if someone is crippled or sick and requires "special care" are you suggesting that we should not provide them this care because it makes our species weaker?
It isn't far from what you suggest to this conclusion. This sort of policy has existed before. It didn't go down all that well. (sweet jesus I can't believe I am godwinning a thread...)
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
07-22-2009, 01:32 AM | #23 (permalink) |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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Im sure there are countless examples of kids who are happier because one of their parents didnt commit suicide, lovers who are happier because their loved ones didnt commit suicide, and so on and so forth. So there are obviously people who benefit tremendously from suicide prevention. It certainly won't stop everyone every time, but if it stops a few once in a while, and they go on to change their minds, great.
It is myopic to only see everything in terms of personal responsibility and/or survival of the fittest. |
07-22-2009, 02:36 AM | #25 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Y'know - I stopped someone from offing themselves a few years ago (a stranger in my neighbourhood). He seemed pretty serious about it and was ready to go.
But, I stopped him and for years afterwards I saw him walking around the area with his dog. I feel justified in doing what I did. ---------- Post added at 05:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 AM ---------- Quote:
But when kids and people in their 20s off themselves, it's usually for, as you say, a much more temporary problem.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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07-22-2009, 05:40 AM | #26 (permalink) |
Please touch this.
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
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Yeah, this is the underlying reason I have always suspected.
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You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] |
07-22-2009, 06:20 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Nothing
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Someone who really wants to kill themselves may give off signals, but they don't go around saying they want to kill themselves...
The people who SAY they want to kill themselves are looking for help.
__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}-- |
07-22-2009, 06:26 AM | #28 (permalink) |
Junkie
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I'm neither for nor against suicide. I do see it as a viable option in certain cases ...
However, the argument about depression is really difficult. To say that a person considering suicide is "feeling something at a certain moment" and should be allowed to commit suicide is difficult and may not be correct. Case in point: I have a friend who was going through a divorce. He was getting very "edgy" and unpredictable as this divorce drew out. He'd had problems his entire adult life with something similar to bipolar disorder/depression. One day, his soon-to-be ex-wife called me and said that he'd called her to say goodbye. She asked me to go over to his house and see if he was OK. I fully expected to see the aftermath of a suicide when I got there. However, he was sitting on the couch with a hand gun. I asked him to put it down and talk about it. If he still felt like dying he could do it after the talk and when I was gone. Meanwhile, my wife called the police. It turns out, that it was a suicidal gesture. The fact is, most people who say they are going to commit suicide aren't actually going to do it. It's the people who don't say anything that actually do it. So you're not really preventing a suicide in most cases--just preventing an accident. My friend was not charged with attempted murder or put in jail or executed (they don't execute for attempted murder anyway). He was sent to a psychiatric facility for four days and then told to see a doctor about his depression. Two weeks later he was diagnosed with pernicious anemia (Pernicious anemia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which was most likely the root cause of his bipolar-like behavior. Six months and numerous B12 shots later he's like a completely new person. I suppose he's weakening the gene pool with his anemia, but then again so am I because I wear glasses. |
07-22-2009, 06:54 AM | #29 (permalink) |
Heliotrope
Location: A warm room
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As a primarily utilitarian society, we have to be against suicide. Suicide hurts everyone connected to the person that goes much more than the person that goes. Once you're dead, you're dead and don't care anymore, but everyone left alive has to suffer. As much as your life is primarily your own, your connection to others is immense, and we'd really rather have you living. It's much easier on the collective mental wellbeing if we only have one of us suffering.
But, in the same vein, if one of us is suffering, then the greatest good is still not being achieved. A utilitarian society, such as ours, must strive to cure suffering and illness.
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who am I to refuse the universe? -Leonard Cohen, Beautiful Losers |
07-22-2009, 07:06 AM | #30 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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A rather natural state of a human being is one where we want to live. We will even fight to the death for it. If someone wants to die, more often than not it suggests there is something seriously wrong.
Most of us like to fix or change things that are going wrong.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
07-22-2009, 07:10 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Near Raleigh, NC
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Quote:
I am all for a person choosing when they want to die, as long as they don't take any unwilling people with them. People who really want to die will go ahead and do it. It can't be that hard, people die accidentally all the time. Isn't the law against suicide basically just justification to get a failed suicide some help?
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bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out." |
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07-22-2009, 09:47 AM | #33 (permalink) |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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If someone were drunk, and said they were going to kill themselves, would you act to stop them?
If someone were drunk, and said they were going to kill themselves, would you act to stop them? etc., etc., When people are in a different 'state of mind' we recognize that they aren't in a position to make objective decisions about important matters, sign legal contracts or and in some cases unable to act in self-preservation at all. I think suicidal thoughts are an altered state of mind, one which directly impacts our ability to make rational decisions like any other. As a result, I don't believe they can make objective decisions about life or death questions. In the case where someone is committing suicide for a legitimate physical malady which makes life unbearable, I make an exception. But no amount of mental anguish is enough for a rational person to commit suicide or even consider it at length. As someone who has had friends commit suicide, acted in a way vanblah described above, and even who have asked me to "accidentally kill them" so as to not be embarrassed by the stigma of suicide, and as someone who strongly believes in personal liberty and responsibility and loathes 'nanny state' government, I FULLY support a forced legal commitment to an institution for medical evaluation (up to 1 week) of anyone who indicates by action or words that they intend to commit suicide.
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 07-22-2009 at 09:51 AM.. |
07-22-2009, 09:48 AM | #34 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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EDIT: I see what you are saying ... the "law" is for someone to get help. Last edited by vanblah; 07-22-2009 at 09:49 AM.. Reason: EDIT: I see what you are saying ... the "law" is for someone to get help. |
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07-22-2009, 10:28 AM | #35 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Near Raleigh, NC
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Yeah, I probably should have quoted law there. Wherever there is a "law" about attempted suicide I think the goal is to get help for the individual attempting...
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bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out." |
07-22-2009, 11:33 AM | #36 (permalink) | |||
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
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Reading the studies on this is actually pretty interesting reading for those into psychology. EDIT: Quote:
EDIT #2 (yes I will read the entire thread next time before posting): Quote:
The only specific factual article I read about that was those that jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge in suicide attempts during my research about the barrier they are talking about putting up; it seems like a lot of people jumped and then realized that they regretted it. I think it's safe to assume it would hold to more cases than just jumps off of historical landmarks. I do agree many people do truly want to, and will find a way to do it. I'm just saying those people are not the whole equation and might even be outnumbered.
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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) Last edited by Toaster126; 07-22-2009 at 11:50 AM.. |
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07-22-2009, 03:17 PM | #37 (permalink) |
Confused Adult
Location: Spokane, WA
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To give it a serious response, it's because despite that person feeling worthless and ready to kill themselves, someone had to care about them enough to even know they were going to consider suicide.
A truly lonely person with nothing left to live for isn't going to have a friend or acquaintance who will notice signs of depression, or hear the comment about taking ones own life to act on. I hate people who commit suicide all the same though, and I will shittalk them endlessly. it's the ultimate act of selfishness. |
07-22-2009, 04:27 PM | #38 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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If it is a rational decision, I agree, let them go. However, more frequently people try to suicide out of emotional pain; normally a temporary situation which heals with time: suicide under those circumstances is just a waste, an enormous pity and very difficult for friends and family. It would be akin to allowing someone to die of an infection when a brief intervention can heal the wound. To punish people for attempting suicide is just stupid and I didn't think there were still societies that unenlightened.
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07-22-2009, 05:25 PM | #40 (permalink) | ||
I have eaten the slaw
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Quote:
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__________________
And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you. |
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