squeeeb

ok, i'm serious here.

when someone claims they are going to commit suicide, or says they really want to and seem pretty serious about it, why do we spend such effort trying to prevent them from doing it?

really, why?

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onward to mayhem!

Rekna

so we can arrest them, charge them for attempted murder, and give them the death penalty!

noodle

i don't.
people are going to do what they want to do.
my job is to make sure that people have information to make their own decisions.
they ask me something, i'll give them the best answer i can.
i'm actually for assisted suicide, which i think we're not offering enough.
but it never really made much sense to me... just makes me sad sometimes that people want to give up. but if they really, truly do, i don't see how i can stop them?
except kids. i've had to call the cops a couple of times to baker act a few kids.
but i don't think that they were truly old/cognitively aware enough to understand the consequences of their actions.

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Punk.of.Ages

Because the human race seems to think that weakness deserves special care and priority above all else.

It's bullshit, and it makes our species, as a whole, weaker. If you can't hack this world, please do off yourself, preferably before you reproduce.

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"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

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AquaFox

because religion says so.. this topic is really interesting.. I'm going to be doing some googling after this to see if i can find any more information on the subject.

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...AquaFox...

Charlatan

For me, it would depend on the situation. Someone that is depressed and wanting to commit suicide is a lot different from someone with a terminal disease living in constant pain.

The depressed person could have a mental condition or just be a self-centred ass (or points in-between). Regardless, with time, this person will likely change their point of view on suicide.

The terminal patient living in constant pain? Why prolong the inevitable?

__________________
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Willravel

Often people that are suicidal are in a highly emotional state where their perception of the world and their life is not objective. In other words, they might be in a state of mind where they could make a decision they might otherwise, in a better state of mind, disagree with.

I'm not against euthanasia or suicide, but I don't think it's as black and white as yes and no.

savmesom11

I sincerely hope you are going for the 'entertainment value' with this response because I find it absolutely deplorable.

I am a social worker so you can label me touchy-feely all you like but....I also volunteer my time answering the phone's for a crisis center. A 24/7 hotline anyone can call, at anytime, with what they are personally experiencing and defining as a crisis. We also answer the NSPL lifeline.....

POINT: we prevent suicide because human life has value, no matter who you are. Mental illness and addiction can cause the mind and psyche to play horrible crimes on one's own mind. It is our moral responsibility to love our neighbors when they are unable to love themselves. Imagine your sister, brother, mother, cousin, boss, anyone you have experienced a positive interaction with....now imagine that they were hurting so horribly inside they saw no other alternative. Depression can happen to ANYONE, don't think that mental illness only affects "those people" you see on the corner begging for change and talking to themselves. "WEAKNESS" are you kidding me??? Suicide takes strength you can't even imagine, worse it takes everything and nothing, complete absence of self. Which is exactly why those 'weak' people choose this path, they can no longer feel or identify with anyone or anything and truly believe they and those they leave behind will be better off.

I have never felt (as one of those left behind) like I was better off; nor have I ever heard someone seeking my counseling that they felt better off.

And PS: suicide and assisted suicide in circumstances of terminal and painful-long term illness are completely different subjects and should be treated as such.

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* I do not believe that struggles are a sign of life falling apart, but rather a step of life falling into place. *

squeeeb

charlatan and will -

you both brought up depression/state of mind.

lets say someone is depressed, not in their right mind. let's say they want to off themselves. at that moment in time, for them, its really bad and suicide is the only way out, so why prevent them? we can say "they will change their mind tomorrow, they are confused" but at that moment, whatever they are feeling is the truth, and if they did off themselves, they wouldn't be around to regret it and say "oops, i overreacted there a bit."

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onward to mayhem!

Xerxys

I'm with Will. A mistake that cannot be undone has to be prevented. Suicidal thoughts are more than always a chemical imbalance. It's an illness. Euthanasia is a question of do the means justify the ends. But a suicidal person is more than often sick and can be helped.

Dang' this forum moves fast ...

No squeeeb, at that point in time they simply cannot come to a conclusion that will summarize their entire lives' turmoil and hardship. It cannot be absorbed in a notice of a couple of days. In order for one to actually resolve something terribly taxing on their emotions they have to do it in a very long stretch of time. Hence the mistake that is suicide.

squeeeb

says who? and honestly, what does that mean? it sounds nice, it sounds right, but it's not quantifiable. my idea of values are different than yours are different than his etc etc etc.

i'm not trying to be a dick about it, i'm not questioning this is how you feel or this is what you believe, i'm not saying you are wrong. obviously others think this, that is why we have to watch patients overnight in the ER when they come in on attempted suicides.

i ask "why don't we just let them go do their thing?"

just because some people think and believe this doesn't mean we all do, or that we have to subscribe to it. you might think my life has value, i might disagree. who are you to tell me i can't off myself? (i don't want to, i'm just asking as a point of clarification)

---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 PM ----------

lets, for the sake of keeping it on some kind of track, not include euthanasia. i'm not talking assisted suicide, i'm talking someone thinks their life is shit and they just want to die and end it all.

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onward to mayhem!

noodle

just a side note since i brought it up... i view euthanasia and assisted suicide as different.
i support assisted suicide not only for the terminally ill.
i was not speaking of it only in terms of being available only to those living with long-term illness.

i, too, am a social worker... for now. but i don't feel that i have to love everyone. nor do i feel that i must save everyone or even can. mental illness can be just as painful as physical and i don't really have the right to tell someone whether or not they're better off being physically here. i subscribe to "do no harm" to a point. i'll never encourage it and i'll follow through with the responsibilities that i am prescribed by my chosen profession, but outside of my job, my views are very different.

and they are mine. i was asked and i shared. and i'll not look down upon anyone else's thoughts on the subject. no one is right or wrong. we just are.


edit: okay, definitely moving too fast.
my bad on the assisted suicide. but i tried to clarify.

for those who say, "it'll pass"... what if suicidal ideations don't?
what if they continue to feel them and continue to be depressed?
is it okay then?

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Charlatan

A scenario: Someone is depressed (i.e. mentally ill) and decides they are going to kill someone else. Do you stop them?

According to your point of view, "at that moment in time, for them, its really bad and suicide (or in my case, murder) is the only way out, so why prevent them?" You suggest also suggest that human life might have to be seen as valuable so who is to say one life is more valuable than other?

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- Old Man Luedecke

squeeeb

i would stop the murder because it involves another human who might not want to be killed at that moment. no matter if the murderer is mentally ill or just angry or whatever. it involves another, so consent is required. (not to get off track....do you remember years ago that german guy who paid someone to kill him and eat him, or something like that? two consenting adults, i see nothing wrong with it).

suicide is just one person doing what he wants to his own body.

---------- Post added at 10:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 PM ----------

you were asked and you did share and i thank you, so don't apologize for stating your opinion, i want to hear what others think about this no matter what they think, i just want to know.

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onward to mayhem!

Willravel

Saving someone today so they can appreciate it tomorrow isn't something you can just discount. You need to provide them the opportunity to make the determination when of sound mind. It's about knowing consent.

Bill O'Rights

Because no one wants to clean up the resulting mess.

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girldetective

I think that is why we dont allow suicide in such a flagrant manner. It is a final decision at that time, and one cannot correct the mistake of over-reaction. It is too late. We are our bodies, and chemicals play a part in our feelings. Chemicals go uppp and dowwwn. Once the body is gone, well its all over.

Also, one's death affects families, friends, and others. We dont want that hardship for them.

And what Bill O'Rights said.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

inBOIL

I don't understand this insistence on someone being in their right mind. We don't live in the objective world, we live in the subjective world of our minds. Who else has the right to tell you whether continued suffering is worth the chance of changing that subjective world, especially if they aren't capable of seeing that world?

I can see an argument for stopping someone temporarily to try and correct what you percieve as misinformation on their part, but I can't envision a justification for overruling someone's judgement or perception that doesn't necessitate a severe reduction of the validity of differing viewpoints.

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And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

Allyallyally

What is it they say? Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem?

In order to commit suicide, you would need to be in an altered state of mine. Depressed, angry, in agony. To end your own life goes against every natural instinct that we have. It causes a world of pain, guilt and regret to those left behind.

I know two people who have considered suicide at least once in their lives. Now, years later, they wouldn't dream of it. They have a lot to live for. I'm sure their families are living better lives because of it, too.

So is it worth it to try and save someone who's seriously committing suicide? Of course is fucking is. They're human, they're just in a lot of agony right now, and they're not seeing clearly. Perhaps all they want is for someone to try and stop them.

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Charlatan

Perhaps selfishness might also be a motivation. I know if I could go back in time and prevent my father from committing suicide I would do it. I'd rather have my father alive than dead.

In his case, I see his depression as a no different than cancer. I would want to save him from death from either affliction.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

DaniGirl

I knew this would be your opinion on this subject. I completely agree. Let them fucking do it and be done with it.

Charlatan

So Dani and Punk... if someone is crippled or sick and requires "special care" are you suggesting that we should not provide them this care because it makes our species weaker?

It isn't far from what you suggest to this conclusion.

This sort of policy has existed before. It didn't go down all that well.

(sweet jesus I can't believe I am godwinning a thread...)

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dippin

Im sure there are countless examples of kids who are happier because one of their parents didnt commit suicide, lovers who are happier because their loved ones didnt commit suicide, and so on and so forth. So there are obviously people who benefit tremendously from suicide prevention. It certainly won't stop everyone every time, but if it stops a few once in a while, and they go on to change their minds, great.

It is myopic to only see everything in terms of personal responsibility and/or survival of the fittest.

Allyallyally

Until it's your mother, sibling, friend, colleague, partner or child..... right?

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Smile - it's the second best thing you can do with your lips.

highthief

Y'know - I stopped someone from offing themselves a few years ago (a stranger in my neighbourhood). He seemed pretty serious about it and was ready to go.

But, I stopped him and for years afterwards I saw him walking around the area with his dog.

I feel justified in doing what I did.

---------- Post added at 05:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 AM ----------

I agree this is how it plays out most times. I fully understand wanting to die if you have some painful, degenerative disease that's not going to get any better.

But when kids and people in their 20s off themselves, it's usually for, as you say, a much more temporary problem.

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Halx

Yeah, this is the underlying reason I have always suspected.

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tisonlyi

Someone who really wants to kill themselves may give off signals, but they don't go around saying they want to kill themselves...

The people who SAY they want to kill themselves are looking for help.

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vanblah

I'm neither for nor against suicide. I do see it as a viable option in certain cases ...

However, the argument about depression is really difficult. To say that a person considering suicide is "feeling something at a certain moment" and should be allowed to commit suicide is difficult and may not be correct.

Case in point: I have a friend who was going through a divorce. He was getting very "edgy" and unpredictable as this divorce drew out. He'd had problems his entire adult life with something similar to bipolar disorder/depression. One day, his soon-to-be ex-wife called me and said that he'd called her to say goodbye. She asked me to go over to his house and see if he was OK.

I fully expected to see the aftermath of a suicide when I got there. However, he was sitting on the couch with a hand gun. I asked him to put it down and talk about it. If he still felt like dying he could do it after the talk and when I was gone. Meanwhile, my wife called the police.

It turns out, that it was a suicidal gesture. The fact is, most people who say they are going to commit suicide aren't actually going to do it. It's the people who don't say anything that actually do it. So you're not really preventing a suicide in most cases--just preventing an accident.

My friend was not charged with attempted murder or put in jail or executed (they don't execute for attempted murder anyway). He was sent to a psychiatric facility for four days and then told to see a doctor about his depression.

Two weeks later he was diagnosed with pernicious anemia (Pernicious anemia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which was most likely the root cause of his bipolar-like behavior.

Six months and numerous B12 shots later he's like a completely new person.

I suppose he's weakening the gene pool with his anemia, but then again so am I because I wear glasses.

cellophanedeity

As a primarily utilitarian society, we have to be against suicide. Suicide hurts everyone connected to the person that goes much more than the person that goes. Once you're dead, you're dead and don't care anymore, but everyone left alive has to suffer. As much as your life is primarily your own, your connection to others is immense, and we'd really rather have you living. It's much easier on the collective mental wellbeing if we only have one of us suffering.

But, in the same vein, if one of us is suffering, then the greatest good is still not being achieved. A utilitarian society, such as ours, must strive to cure suffering and illness.

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who am I to refuse the universe?
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Baraka_Guru

A rather natural state of a human being is one where we want to live. We will even fight to the death for it. If someone wants to die, more often than not it suggests there is something seriously wrong.

Most of us like to fix or change things that are going wrong.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Iliftrocks

This is exactly what I was thinking. If someone tells you they want to die, they are really asking for help deciding if life is worth going on with.

I am all for a person choosing when they want to die, as long as they don't take any unwilling people with them. People who really want to die will go ahead and do it. It can't be that hard, people die accidentally all the time.

Isn't the law against suicide basically just justification to get a failed suicide some help?

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bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

flstf

It seems to me that the decision to live or die should be a protected individual right. Perhaps the government should have some restrictions on where you do it and/or the disruption to the public.

Jinn

If someone were drunk, and said they were going to kill themselves, would you act to stop them?
If someone were drunk, and said they were going to kill themselves, would you act to stop them?

etc., etc.,

When people are in a different 'state of mind' we recognize that they aren't in a position to make objective decisions about important matters, sign legal contracts or and in some cases unable to act in self-preservation at all.

I think suicidal thoughts are an altered state of mind, one which directly impacts our ability to make rational decisions like any other. As a result, I don't believe they can make objective decisions about life or death questions.

In the case where someone is committing suicide for a legitimate physical malady which makes life unbearable, I make an exception. But no amount of mental anguish is enough for a rational person to commit suicide or even consider it at length.

As someone who has had friends commit suicide, acted in a way vanblah described above, and even who have asked me to "accidentally kill them" so as to not be embarrassed by the stigma of suicide, and as someone who strongly believes in personal liberty and responsibility and loathes 'nanny state' government, I FULLY support a forced legal commitment to an institution for medical evaluation (up to 1 week) of anyone who indicates by action or words that they intend to commit suicide.

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vanblah

I think it varies by state but there really is no "law" against suicide in the United States. There is a law against assisted suicide.

EDIT: I see what you are saying ... the "law" is for someone to get help.

Iliftrocks

Yeah, I probably should have quoted law there. Wherever there is a "law" about attempted suicide I think the goal is to get help for the individual attempting...

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bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

Toaster126

My thoughts exactly. Also, due to the fact that most people who try to commit suicide and fail end up dying from causes other than suicide (i.e. don't try/succeed at killing themselves), I think most people realize after they start that their problems are in fact, not as important and more transitory than their life is.

Reading the studies on this is actually pretty interesting reading for those into psychology.

EDIT: I think that's an oversimplification, while the underlying point of probability is true.

EDIT #2 (yes I will read the entire thread next time before posting):Many, many, many people who try and fail report realizing that they did in fact wish to live after the point of no return.

The only specific factual article I read about that was those that jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge in suicide attempts during my research about the barrier they are talking about putting up; it seems like a lot of people jumped and then realized that they regretted it. I think it's safe to assume it would hold to more cases than just jumps off of historical landmarks.

I do agree many people do truly want to, and will find a way to do it. I'm just saying those people are not the whole equation and might even be outnumbered.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Shauk

To give it a serious response, it's because despite that person feeling worthless and ready to kill themselves, someone had to care about them enough to even know they were going to consider suicide.

A truly lonely person with nothing left to live for isn't going to have a friend or acquaintance who will notice signs of depression, or hear the comment about taking ones own life to act on.


I hate people who commit suicide all the same though, and I will shittalk them endlessly.

it's the ultimate act of selfishness.

cyklone

If it is a rational decision, I agree, let them go. However, more frequently people try to suicide out of emotional pain; normally a temporary situation which heals with time: suicide under those circumstances is just a waste, an enormous pity and very difficult for friends and family. It would be akin to allowing someone to die of an infection when a brief intervention can heal the wound. To punish people for attempting suicide is just stupid and I didn't think there were still societies that unenlightened.

Bear Cub

So that Bear Cub can get them first.

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inBOIL

If someone wants to leave his friends and family (permanently) to live far away, should he be prevented from doing so? How many people are happier because their s.o. chose not to leave them despite having difficulty? Even when their problems are easy to solve, we don't deny people the right to walk away. Thier right to self-determination trumps others' feelings. Why should this standard be reversed in cases of suicide?

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And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.