ngdawg

Rest of Story

OK, I'm about as ungiving of a shit about things as they come, but she's not a man. As one person in a comment column put it, women have their breasts removed due to cancer but that doesn't make them men. Men have conditions that leave them without testosterone and that doesn't make them women.
I have no doubt that any kids they have are brought to them with deep love, but this is a lesbian couple, at least for now. They've been on ABC News and Oprah and are writing a book about their experience.
What experience? You're a woman having babies who wants to be a man-someday.
Is just "appearance" enough to make someone something other than what they are?
I won't go into the kids' mental state down the road. Raise them with love and it doesn't matter what you are or what you call yourself, but this is a media sham to me.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Baraka_Guru

Woman/Man.

That isn't enough.

This is about gender/sex.

Biologically, he's transexual. Born female, "made" into a man.

Gender-wise, he's transgendered. Born female, and identifying as a man.

For all intents and purposes, he's a man, baby.

Except for the baby-making thing, maybe.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Amaras

Ngdawg, I see where you are going with this, but I agree with Baraka. Some folks are born into the wrong body. Transsexuals, and those with the mindset of one gender, the body of another. It's my bleeding heart liberal outlook, I admit. I don't blame you for your pshawing, I just don't agree. I am uncomfortable about the 15 minutes of fame, though. I'm guessing that they are cashing in, either $ directly, or attention to their cause.

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Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

ngdawg

That's just it-she wasn't made into a man. She has female genitalia and reproductive organs, is not taking testosterone and is menstruating. I have a friend who has/had higher than normal levels of testosterone that gave her body and facial hair (but she was absolutely gorgeous), was told she may never have kids and yet had 4. I daresay she had more facial hair than this person calling herself a man.
And that's the part that's off to me. Call yourself whatever you want, but don't act or pretend to be something and expect everyone to just say, "wow, a man gave birth." "He" didn't. "She" did.

Like I said, I'm not bothered by the scenario per se, I'm bothered by the exploitation of something that just doesn't exist.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

streak_56

Come on now everyone

we know its not a baby, its the fuel tank for his sex machine.

Although.. pretty cool story.

curiousbear

I too think it is she having a baby.

Again it is all relativity.

humble question, so a man cant menstruate? cant have a womb and bear a infant? what about 200yrs from now if human race survives...

Willravel

I hope they're very happy. Children are a singular joy.

Manic_Skafe

There really isn't any opinion to be had about this.

They're just media whores.

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"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

genuinegirly

There are probably other cases like this somewhere in the world, these folks are just crazy enough to want the media attention.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

dlish

when people think 'whores' they think female prostitutes as opposed to male whores.

the media whore had a baby.

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An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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ngdawg

Which kinda begs the question: Why do we (not "we" here, necessarily, but people in general), fall for this and make it bigger than what it is?
Recently, in watching Dr.90210, a transgender FtM was having the final cut made. This person had had a daughter, now a teen. In essence, same story.
Is it the media that's so gullible as to give undue attention to a "media whore" and sensationalize something that amounts to someone merely stopping her transition to have a baby or two? Or are people that dumb as to really think "Wow, a man is having a baby, just like that Schwarznegger movie!" so media feeds that.

Now, if he/she was a hermaphrodite who fucked him/herself and got preggers, THERE'S a story!

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Baraka_Guru

Of course it's not a "man" having a baby; it's a transgendered male having a baby. Technically speaking, it's a female reproducing. Gender-wise, he's a man.

This is about the difference between sex and gender.

The media can have its fun with it, but look at the heart of the issue.

He identifies himself as a man, so it's a man having the baby. The pregnancy and birthing will only be one part of having this child.

The child will know him as a man.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Vigilante

I don't care one way or another. I've seen many kids raised in "normal" families that were probably way more fucked up than this kid will ever be, if the kid ever even resents this process to begin with.

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We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Poppinjay

Slow news days create this kind of shit.

They're writing a book, and it has a ready made audience in the transgendered community.

I don't care what anybody does with their woo woo. Just don't be a tool.

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SabrinaFair

+1

(Talking about gender identity vs. biological sex makes me nostalgic for my days in the anthropology department.....)

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little_tippler

ok when an actual man (sex) does have a baby, then I'll be interested. Think of the potential!

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Baraka_Guru

It would revolutionize fatherhood. Maybe that's what it needs. ...to finally put an end to the crisis.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Poppinjay

Years and years ago, there was a scientist on the Letterman show of all places talking about this. He said it was possible for a woman to get pregnant, and for the embryo to be implanted into a man and carried full term.

I have no idea if he was a quack.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

skizziks

I am gonna disagree with you on this one. I can "identify" myself as anything I want to, doesn´t mean I am that. Like suburban white kids who think they are "ghetto niggas," they just arn't, no matter what they say.

I agree with ngdawg on this. When this first came out, the first thing in my mind was "its a chick who became a man" and then I saw the story, and it broke, and everyone seemed surprised. In the world of worthwhile news, it ranks right up there with "some people put mayonaise on thier french fries instead of ketchup."

Baraka_Guru

I can't believe you just compared gender identity with "wigger" identity.

Gender is influenced by many things, including hormonal balance, sexual orientation, and deeply rooted social scripts from which no one is spared.

Now tell me of any aspects that affect these white kids that come remotely close to being as influential and, in many cases, uncontrollable.

I don't think there are many white kids out there who actually think they're black, but there are "women" out there who can't see themselves as anything other than "men," just as there are "men" who can't see themselves as anything other than "women."

I don't see how your comparison works.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

skizziks

perhaps the wigger example wasnt the best, but i still maintain that just because you "deeply believe" and "feel" you are something doesnt mean you are. I´m not arguing that the chick really believes and feels she is a man trapped inside a woman´s body, but the fact is, she was born with a woman´s body, so she is technically (and factually) a woman. no matter how much or little testosterone or hormones she has, no matter what sexually attracts her, she is biologically a woman.

perhaps a better example would be the white kid growing up in the ghetto, with the crack whore mom and no father, who is a minority among the blacks. he listens to the music, hangs out, identifies quite well with their situaiton. He is living the "ghetto black kid" life, yet he is still a white kid and will grow up to be a white man, no matter how black he feels on the inside, no matter how black he dresses and talks and walks and acts. He dealt with highly influential circumstances well beyond his control.

Vigilante

I am amused.

__________________
We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Iliftrocks

Maybe I'm a tall man, trapped in a short man's body. Can I have myself declared tall???? Or maybe my member should be declared larger, legally? That'd be great, but unfortunately, no matter how many declarations I have, and shoe lifters, and penis pumps, I was born this way and I'll probably die this way..... short and short, dang

I like eating p****y, but that don't make me a lesbian either. ( bad, bad joke )

Gender versus biology. Don't you mean gender roles? The roles we associate with the different sexes can change, but our biology, whether we are "really" a man/male or a woman/female does not change, regardless of surgery, or just wishes.

The main problem may be that we feel that we need to change our gender status to get some kind of social approval, or legal status. I think we need to fix the need for this approval, or legitimacy of gender status. You should be able to be a man/woman, who is gay, or a man/woman, who has had a "sex" change operation, without stigma, and without ignoring biology.

Can't we all just get along? (I've had too much caffeine, yet again)

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bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

izzzzy

where did they get the sperm?

Hyacinthe

I agree with those saying she is not a man because quite simply she is not - she may think of herself as a man, the baby may grow up to think of her as a fatherly figure. BUT none of that will change the fact that she is technically a woman at this current point in time.

It is not a MAN having a baby it is a transgendered woman.

I have the same issue with those people running around saying that they're lesbians who occasionally like sleeping with men - you're not a lesbian if you like sleeping with men you're bi-sexual and prefer women. A true lesbian would see about as much appeal in a man (unless he was unusually effeminate) as they would in a lamp-post. Same is true for those running around claiming to be gay but who find women sexually appealing.

We can lie to ourselves, we can lie to society but that will not change facts (is what I like so much about them).


What angers me the most about this story is the irresponsible way it is being handled by the media - why have a headline reading "Man having a baby" when you know that technically, scientifically speaking it is NOT true.

Final argument I have - if this woman committed a crime would she want to be put into a male or female prison population? Surely if she's really a man then she'd go into a male prison? I bet you that wouldn't happen because she would be subjected to beatings and rape - she would be put in a female prison because legally until she has a penis she's a man. She can mentally and emotionally identify herself as a man but while in posession of a vagina she's still female.


*****

This may sound as though I object to those people who are transgendered - I don't, I have numerous friends who are mid operation to change their gender or who choose to cross dress ( you'd be surprised how large the niche for that is amongst sex workers and strippers) and I generally call them by whichever designation they prefer as I would in this case if I knew the woman / man in question. Still doesn't change my opinion in this case though.

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Prince

I guess this is what passes for "news" nowadays. Even speculating about what kind of dog the Obamas will buy tops this bit of steaming bullshit in the fascination department.

What is interesting to me though is how people suddenly become authors when their face is on TV for a few minutes. I'm sure that idiot Joe The Plumber, a poster boy for modern American ignorance, will also be "writing" a book about...his "experiences."

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anti fishstick

i saw an interview with barbara walters on this couple and beatie said he wasn't writing a book for the fame. he simply wanted to come out to educate and advance transgender issues.. pretty sad when even the same community he was in told him to be quiet about it. do you think his coming out to the public helped or hurt the transgender community?

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Prince

A good friend of mine's a man in a woman's body. He's always been a "guy" in my view. But if he got pregnant, I wouldn't call it a man being pregnant. This person has turned this whole thing into a circus, and made the transgendered community a momentary laughing stock.

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Who is John Galt?