dlish

[QUOTE=skizziks;2555166]travel is not about buying trinkets and crap. Its about seeing how other people live and realizing how much we as Americans really have. The poorest American has more than some regular everyday people in other countries. I´m not talking about Europe either. And no, I don´t expect politicians to voluntarily take a pay cut, for ANY reason. /QUOTE]

you sound a lot like me and why i travel so much.

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abaya

I also forgot to mention the option of not going as a tourist, but as someone staying for an extended time and working. I know people who go teach English abroad for up to 1-2 years (e.g. in Japan, China), and everything gets paid for. It's a fantastic opportunity.

A friend of mine plans to go to France for a couple of months next year to work on an organic farm--she will actually get PAID to travel there, it's a pretty sweet deal. There are tons of similar opportunities for people who are in the right stage of life to take advantage of them.

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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Willravel

Please don't forget about the peace corps. You're given room and board, food, and an opportunity to help a developing area become successful in a truly real way. My hope is that some day more people join the PC than join the military. They are agents of good will and cooperation.

abaya

Already mentioned twice, Will ... as well as AmeriCorps, which I think too few people seriously consider, as a domestic alternative to the PeaceCorps. Teach for America is also a fantastic program for getting out of our comfort zones (which is what we are really talking about here).

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
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Vigilante

Oh man you're a dick sometimes. No, I didn't go to school in Louisiana, but I used to live close to it. Houston isn't that far away either. I agree that sometimes travel isn't about being a tourist, but if you got some kids that think red lobster is high-class dining, you think they'll be immersed in the culture when they go overseas? You think they'll go find a little hole in the wall diner to sample local cuisine, or will they go hit up a nightclub and get blitzed and not remember half the trip? What do you think? Knowing the people I grew up with, I know what they'd do, and it's not the ideological government-funded multicultural event you portray it to be.

I'm the stay-at-home kind of guy usually, don't go out much, don't care to. I prefer to examine the behavior of an insect running into a predator over taking in the bustling cityscape of humans I would see if I happened to look up. You have traveled alot, I have traveled little. In fact if I traveled, it would be more to observe the wildlife of the region than to experience the humans contained therein. I enjoy studying plant environments more than I do chatting with people that I barely know. Sometimes I even cut a conversation short so I can get some peace of mind. Fuck it, if you only live once, you might as well enjoy it. I spent most of my weekends in the freakin woods, so I could get away from the howling madness of the orphanage I spent my teenage years in. I got treed by a silent pack of dogs that thought of me as food, and literally covered in banana spiders a few times, but it was still more pleasant than dealing with a bunch of tards squirting God-knows-what out of improvised waterguns (shampoo bottles with a pinhole) and stabbing each other with scissors and pens. I mean that literally.

That said, just because you think something is best, doesn't mean I have to agree. I know some people live shitty lives, I can turn on the tube and see that, or I can drive downtown. Or I can think about sleeping on a bench myself in my younger years. I think of this as one of those classic examples of the privileged know everything. That is how I see you; privileged. That is no doubt how some see me as well. Maybe you aren't, who knows. Maybe you worked into the ability to travel the world, but it doesn't sound like it. Feel free to enlighten me on that. When you come in stating everyone is the US should be forced to travel, spend some cash, live a leisurely life for a few months and take in culture, you assume that is what everyone wants to do - take in culture, and what everyone can do - be at leisure. Personally, I could give a rat's ass about culture. I tolerate my own species because the women are hot and some guys are funny when you get them drunk....and I get paid to tolerate them in IT, but only barely.

But I suppose if I was forced to travel, I would go fishing in the amazon and collect some plants for my aquarium. I'd have to buy a few extra cornell drawers because I would FILL them with exotic insects. I'd probably have to devote a closet just to that. And I would ignore the culture going on several miles upstream. Gov't funded fishing trip. Sign me up.

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Willravel

It's good to remind people as often as possible.

powerclown

If I ever get out of here, I'm going to Kathmandu.

Supple Cow

I missed out on an excellent trip to D.C. as a middle schooler precisely because my classmates were all D-bags who wouldn't have taken advantage of it properly and would have just used the situation as an opportunity to misbehave.

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.

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lotsofmagnets

come to iceland! not many people here! you might learn to like the world outside your front door!

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she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron.
physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

mixedsubstance

I agree. And I think it should be mandatory for the government to give us an allowance or tax credit for taking a trip outside of the US every few years....I have only been to Canada a handful of times, never have had the time or money to get outside this continent and it's frustrating. I would love to travel.....someday.

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Vigilante

Hehehehe, not enough bugs and tropical plants

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-Winston Churchill

skizziks

you and bob seger
-----Added 4/11/2008 at 06 : 58 : 55-----
as far as being expensive -

1st class bus (with toilet, movies, air conditioning, stops along the way) from phoenix, az, to guadalajara - US$144

hostel - US$ 13 per night, less if you stay one month and less with a hostal membership card, so lets say about $350 for the month.

food - you can eat quite well for US 1.50 - US$5 per meal. $5 is eating an assload at a restaurant.

a flight to thailand is expensive, but food is about US$1.00 a meal (on the street, never ever got sick) and you can get an apartment for about US$300 a month.

in Bolivia, you can get a room for about 3 bucks a night, and food aint that much more expensive.

point is, travelling is NOT expensive at all, if you are a traveler and not a tourist. it is expensive if you want to "live like an american" while you are there, taking taxis instead of walking or taking the bus, eating at "nice" restaurants, staying at "nice" hotels. if you live like the people who actually live there do, it aint expensive. really. seeing as

Amaras

Folks, let's be realistic.....
How about some good books (or maybe enforced practical literacy) and exposure to television
with shows like: National Geographic, Frontline, etcetera.....

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skizziks

I´m a dick quite often, but with a smile and no malicious intentions. This is what makes an interesting discussion.
-----Added 4/11/2008 at 07 : 02 : 27-----
I am realistic. One week in a foreign country will teach you more than one month of reading books and watching tv. Unless that was sarcasm, then yeah....

Vigilante

I'm with ya

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We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Amaras

No sarcasm meant. I'm just thinking a lot of folks can't find Canada on a map.
So, show them a map. Then, if they read any # of different books, they will learn
about places and people outside of their immediate surroundings.
THEN maybe they can think about travelling. Nothing worse, in my experience,
than being in foreign city and seeing North Americans lined up in McDonald's,
loudly saying how different it is then back home. Before you ask, I see them
while passing by.....

THOSE folks need perhaps a little "edumecation" before they travel. Point is,
travel might be pointless for most as they are now constituted.

Fair enough?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

skizziks

Quite fair, and yeah, put that way, I´m with you. Some people will stubbornly go out of thier way to remain ignorant. I knew a guy who took his family to Guam, they ate at Mcdonalds, Denny´s, etc. No matter how hard he tried, his wife would NOT eat anything but "American" food. We didn´t like her all that much.

Randerolf

I'm always shocked when people tell me that they have never seen the ocean.

A friend once told me, "We do the things that we want to do." One the upside, getting a appreciation on your own country can be as inexpensive as visiting an ethnic foodstore/ neighborhood or talking with people from around the world on the Internet (TFP/ video chat/ forums). Americans are born into speaking the lingua franca of the world. We must take advantage of what you've got.

QuasiMondo

Great idea. Who's paying for my plane ticket?

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stellabella1978

I know people like that. They actually went to Italy and ate in American restaurants because the local restaurants didn't serve "real" Italian food.

Amaras

Imagine if those folks learned about the origins of "American" foods. Hamburgers come from Germany?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

skizziks

BULLSHIT!!! We invented the Hamburg-er. Next you will say Frankfurt-ers come from Germany as well.

Amaras

Hamburgers, well, the name, originally comes from Hamburg steak. The word first appeared in English in 1884 and...
Hey are you fucking with me? I can't tell if you don't use emoticons.
I am Canadian, eh. I can't tell what you are aboot if you don't tell me. Heh.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

Baraka_Guru

Apple pie is English.

Americans should travel abroad to see where they truly come from.

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ItWasMe

Wow, 25 days minimum is alot more than we get here. Maybe more Americans would travel more if we had the time off work. I get 3 weeks, and that's high for here. Where I work it takes years to get a week, then another week, topping out at 3 weeks. My hubby gets no vacation where he works, and nobody else does, either. No matter how long they have worked there.

My three months between high school and college were spent working, saving money for college. As are the summer months between college years. Student loans/grants/scholarships didn't pay for it all; we were expected to make our own financial contributions as well. But that was back when you couldn't get a home loan without a sizeable down payment.

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stonefaceddog

I think that most Americans don't even travel enough in our own country. My best friend from college has only been outside of his home state twice in the past 10 years!

The other thing that gets to me is the people who do travel and they spend all their time eating at fast food chains and drinking crappy beer in the hotel bar. I've found so many cool pubs and restaraunts just wandering around when I am in a place I've never been before. I've had great home cooked meals at corner cafes and I've seen plenty of unique things and met plenty of interesting people when I am traveling. You just need to get out of the hotel bar and explore.

The only touristy thing I do is collect shot glasses from all the places I go. Otherwise, I try to see it like a local.

skizziks

yeah, I am totally joking. Sarcasm doesnt translate well without the voice inflection. Sorry bout that.

Iliftrocks

Not to threadjack, but...

What if we were required to to everything well intentioned people said we should be required do before finishing high school and college.....

The list is something like:

Mandatory volunteering during school. Some say full time during summer and part time during the school year.

Mandatory military service. What's a couple more years to an already 16 years of education?

Mandatory post college Peace Corps?

Mandatory travel.


Well, that's the short list. Questions are: Who is going to pay for all of this? How long is it going to be before a person can become a productive/producing member of our society?


In theory, I support the sentiments of most of the above, as far as churning out more well rounded people, but you're going to have to remove a lot of our freedom of choosing how we want to end up, and making other people pay for it, because I don't see a way to require people to pay for things that they are being forced to do. I'm sure others could come up with scads of reasons not to do any of them.

I know you weren't suggesting forcing people to do these things, but I'm a little wary of people saying things should be mandatory, because the politicians might try and make it so, you know, for our own good. Plus I can't afford travel, and I'm jealous

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snowy

Oregon will require all high school students who wish to earn a diploma to complete a service learning component prior to graduation as of 2011; it's being phased in over the next several years. Two girls I work with at one of my jobs are student volunteers earning their service hours. The volunteer work allows them to get job experience but in a way that's more compatible with their school schedule than if they were working a regular job. They're fine with it; as they see it, if they volunteer a couple hours a week, every week, they'll have more than enough service hours by the time they graduate. So it's not only teaching kids the value of service, it's teaching them to plan ahead accordingly.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

abaya

I was going to say, how does a volunteering requirement "cost" money, when in the end you are doing your community a service that it doesn't have to pay for? I mean sure, the program/administration will cost money, but in the long run it's actually very beneficial to society. It also helps get people into the habit of civil service, so that perhaps later in life they might come back to that and volunteer again... which continues to reap benefits for society.

Hmm, where do we get the money to conduct wars, btw? That $10bn a month sure is going to a good cause, isn't it. Bailing out banks is also pretty damn expensive. Wouldn't it be nice to spend that money on something more productive, like getting the next generation out and exposed to the world, bilingual or even trilingual, and therefore increasing their overally competitiveness in the job market (as well as just making them into more well-rounded people)? I'd much rather see my tax dollars spent on that instead of defense.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

biznatch

I agree that Americans need to actually learn and KNOW another language. How many have I met that took 4 years of Spanish, or French, and still can't string 4 words in that language together because all you needed to do to pass the course was show up. I find it sad, since I'm fairly sure that learning another language while you're growing up greatly develops your brain, and in the end I think you'll end up much more intelligent.
However, I'm French, and I don't think learning French should be one of the main choices. Spanish, definitely. But French? you can speak it in France, Quebec, and a few African countries, which, let's face it, most Americans will never go to (or care about).

That's why I think we need to get with the times, replace French as one of the main choices with Chinese languages, or something else more useful.

If High Schools provided an option for travel for a semester (half a school year), or even a 2 week trip, with a partnered international student exchange system (each kid goes to a family in a foreign country for two weeks, and then welcomes the other family's kid in their house for 2 weeks) , I think American high school graduates would end up way better and more aware of the world.
-----Added 18/11/2008 at 01 : 35 : 44-----
I'm not sure of what exactly you mean by this, if you mean in terms of cost, or of culture difference. But if it's terms of culture, trust me, European countries vary much more from on to another than the US States do.
But I don't think you meant it that way, since you have travelled a good amount.




Sorry, I keep coming back to edit. I just wanted to add: if the gov't did indeed decide to make travel possible for say, two weeks, for high school students, how much would it really cost? Would it not be possible for schools to have fundraisers for this purpose? And if the government chartered planes for students, without going through companies, or used government planes, wouldn't that save money? Anyone with a better grasp on expenses and economy than me(so basically, anyone at all) could maybe do the math, and prove me either right or wrong, but I suspect if it was well planned, it wouldn't cost that much.

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abaya

That would be me--I took 3 years of Spanish, was a very good student, and can string together a few sentences now (12 years later) when I'm in Spain, but otherwise all that investment went to waste because I *never* had to speak it out loud, except for when called on in class. If I had been obligated to spend even a couple of weeks or a month in Mexico, especially in a rural area (not Cabo or something else like that), it would have done a world of good for my language practice/retention.

The only time when I actually became fluent in other languages was when I had to live in the country for an extended period of time, in a total immersion situation (Icelandic), or at least studying it intensively in a structured course, hearing it at home, and then using it almost daily in my work (Thai). Those are the two best things to come out of my degree in anthropology so far--improving my heritage languages to the point where I am fairly comfortable conducting semi-complex conversations. I only wish that I had been forced to study these languages much, much earlier, so that I could be truly fluent.

I don't know, I still think French is quite useful (especially as a base language, for the other Romance languages)... it is the second language in Lebanon, my husband's country, and I wish I could speak it so that I could communicate better with my in-laws. It's also spoken in parts of SE Asia, which would be handy when traveling around there. But I see what you mean... maybe Chinese or Arabic would be a better choice.

I'm shooting to pick up French and Arabic next, as those are my husband's languages and it would make a world of difference when talking with his family. We both feel very strongly about raising our kids at least bilingually, trilingually if we can get away with it, or even more if we end up living abroad for periods in the future. The more languages the better, I say... the human brain can handle so much more than we'd like to think, if we just feed it properly.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Sue

x 2

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Tully Mars

The PC and AC are not a given any more. I know- I tried. There's a couple university programs out there that you can "pay" to volunteer your time. Probably not a bad way for someone trying to build a resume, if they have the cash. Personally I'm not involved in building anything anymore and am not willing to pay to volunteer my time.

But travel doesn't have to be expensive. Especially not right now. Hotels, good hotels are discounting their rates almost daily. I just spent a total of 5 nights at the Hyatt in Cancun for $54 a night, two while waiting for a flight out and three doing some diving and decompressing after an emergency trip home. It's a very, very nice property. Nice pool, waterfall in the center, swim up bar etc... Stunning views from the rooms. Their "rack" rate was $250 a night last fall/winter. So, 5 nights at the Hyatt on the beach (what's left of it) in Cancun for less then $300. I could have easily found a place in town for $20 a night. The view wouldn't have been as nice but it would have been clean, friendly and safe. Most nights I took the bus (.65) downtown to a restaurant the locals eat at and had dinner for less then $4, beer or drinks were $1. One night, first night in town, I went to a popular night spot to watch the World Series. I left after ordering my second beer and finding out they were 9.95 a beer. It was a large beer- 22oz, and it was cold. But I like the ones down town for a buck much better.

From my home here in the northern Yucatan I can get a 1st class bus ticket from here to Costa Rica for roughly $90. Don't think Greyhound, think more like British Air with wheels. All of Latin American can be done like this, most of Asia too. I just spoke with an friend who recently spent two weeks very close to Bali for $8 a night. I think he said he spent less then $100 on food for the entire trip. I didn't ask about drinks, knowing him his bar tab was much closer to his airfare then his hotel. I've heard Eastern Europe is inexpensive as well. I've never been, just heard.

Bottom line if you want to travel you probably could travel. Likely for what it costs to stay home, or less. Do a little research, go a little native. I think one thing that stops many in the US from doing this is the attitude of fear. Regardless of what that talking box in/on your entertainment center is telling you the rest of the world is not out to steal your wallet, kill you and dump you in the nearest ditch. Again do some research, use your brain a little and you'll be fine. There's a lot places in Central America, Asia, Africa and Europe I go to in a heart beat. At the same time I wouldn't care to spend much time in parts of several inner, major US cities. I'd go. I'd go just about anywhere. I'd just honestly feel safer in downtown Bogotá, Columbia. My 72 yr. old lady friend just returned. She went by herself (goes almost everywhere by herself) came back with lovely photos and fantastic stories.

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