jorgelito

Ok, so recently there's been talk about how soy and soy products are bad for you.

1. Lowers your sperm count
2. Raises estrogen levels

Obviously this is not a problem for chicks but for dudes, this could be unpleasant.

Anyways, does anyone know if there's any merit to these claims? I enjoy soy products but would rather not grow tits and have my swim team go extinct.

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Willravel

Men's Health had an article a while back that did outline some worrying facts about soy and men, but I can't find the issue. I try to avoid soy, which is difficult considering the liberal, yuppie progressive blood running through my veins.

What soy products do you enjoy? Most of them have milk-based/whey-based alternatives (unless you're lactose intolerant).

Punk.of.Ages

Wait!

Eating soy products really does make you less of a man?!




Disclaimer: I kid, I kid.

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LoganSnake

Soy sucks. I never put that crap in my mouth. For a good reason, it seems!

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Willravel

jorgelito

Apparently it does. Literally. Soy causes dudes to grow tits and lose the lil' swimmers.

I like tofu dishes and soy milk. Seeing how 90% of the world is lactose intolerant and it's just plain gross for grown ups to be drinking the milk of a different species (cheese doesn't count), then I think there are some pretty big implications. Most of my Irish friends are very lactose intolerant. I used to think lactose intolerance was an Irish thing but it turns out most people are.

Will, do you avoid soy because you're afraid of growing boobs and losing sperms?
-----Added 6/8/2008 at 08 : 59 : 10-----
You probably never had soy done right.

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samcol

I stay away from soy for both the reasons listed. Not to mention it is one of the most high genetically modified foods out there.

I'd hesitate to say that it's ok for women to take it as well.

If you drink soy milk or are lactose intolerant I'd highly suggest trying almond milk instead.

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Willravel

The theory is that an enzyme present in the soy plant is frighteningly similar to the female steroid estrogen, and it can produce the same result. This has several effects:
It can be damaging to the endocrine system of children who use soy formula.
It can cause very young women and little girls to enter puberty earlier.
It can cause men to produce less testosterone which is a VERY bad thing. Low testosterone levels are associated with lowered aggression, lower self esteem and confidence, loss of sexual interest, lower sperm count and even penile shrinkage.

The question is to how similar the effect of this plant enzyme and estrogen really are. Some studies demonstrate conclusively that it's bad, while others are not conclusive.

PonyPotato

Crompsin likes tofu. A lot. Perhaps I should show him this thread..

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highthief

Personally, I'm intolerant of soy and don't digest it well, so I just stay away from it period.

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xepherys

Frankly, the only soy product I EVER use is soy sauce on asian food. Otherwise I think it's disgusting. As for drinking another specie's milk... what is wrong with that? We've been doing it for millenia... *shrug* And cheese is a direct product... and butter. Saying that is like saying, eating peanuts is nasty, but peanut butter doesn't count. Sheesh!

At any rate, most "healthy" alternatives eventually turn out to be not so good. Hippies are poor judges of nutritional value...

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Punk.of.Ages

Wow, if this is true you'd think I'd know a lot more lactose intolerant people. I can think of two of my friends that are.

Furthermore, not one of my Irish friends is, and I have quite a few Irish buddies.

Almond milk is delicious.

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Manic_Skafe

In ignorance of all of this, I had sushi for dinner tonight and tofu terriyaki the night before. I don't regularly consume soy so maybe I'll just give it up but honestly - I'm too burnt out from all of these studies that claim to prove that everything is bad for you.

I'd make a joke about being too well endowed and the benefits of a little shrinkage but...eh.

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snowy

Most of you are missing the fact that soy is present in more than just tofu and soy milk. Soybeans are one of the two major crops subsidized by the Farm Bill, the other being corn. Soy protein shows up in a number of items: salad dressings, soups, imitation meats, beverage powders, cheeses, non-dairy creamer, frozen desserts, whipped topping, infant formulas, breads, breakfast cereals, pastas, and pet foods. Soybean oil is commonly used to fry foods. Soy lecithin, an emulsifier, is used in the manufacture of chocolate candy and cocoa. Soy, quite honestly, is the original Frankenfood--it was one of the first crops to be genetically modified.

The soy industry in this country is very big, and as such there are a number of companies involved in its growth, harvest, processing, and manufacture into food products and other things. Some of these companies include Archer Daniels Midland (the largest processor of soy in the United States), Monsanto ( they produce Roundup Ready GMO soybean seed), DuPont (manufacturer of soy polymers), and Dow Chemical Corp. (also a seed and pesticide producer).

Your biggest worry should not be that you might consume some phytoestrogens via eating soy. You should be concerned about whether or not growing soy is the best use of land in the United States, whether or not our Farm Bill should be subsidizing its growth and therefore its use in processed foods, and whether or not our Farm Bill should support, indirectly or directly, such companies as Monsanto and Dow Chemical.

As to the OP: It's not really a big worry if you're only eating soy via tofu and soy milk, and non-GMO soy at that. Clearly, other cultures have enjoyed soy products for centuries without major side effects.

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Willravel

There was a report on Guns and Butter (a news program) several years ago that provided evidence that most soy is now GMO due to poor GMO pollen management at Monsanto. They were developing a new strain in Canada and the pollen spread outside of the controllable area and pollinated soy crops across Canada. From there it spread across North America, where most soy is grown.

As for enjoying things for generations, humans used lead for thousands of years before realizing it's toxicity. Considering that the theoretical effect of soy is not supposed to be fatal, but just developmental it's possible that it's effects have been occurring for thousands of years. I'm not saying that it's conclusively dangerous or even harmful, but our using it for a long time does not necessarily discount dangers.
-----Added 6/8/2008 at 10 : 29 : 32-----
It needs to be said, though. Here:

"Considering the incredible length and girth of my member, I should probably take soy regularly just to ensure the physical safety of my partner."

xepherys

See, conversely to my feelings about soy, I don't see the serious issue with GMO/GEO crops. I doubt that we'll see serious consequences come from GMO foodstuffs.

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LoganSnake

Huh, what?

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*Nikki*

I have heard that soy is bad also. Many Peds recommend not giving it to children at all.

I understand Snowys point BUT if you go out of your way to consume products that you know are composed almost entirely of soy, then the issue should worry you.

Atreides88

If it's the same article I'm thinking of, it basically said that soy-based supplements aren't as good as the milk-based ones, and that it's better to drink skim milk after working out instead of soy milk.

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Willravel

Yes, I believe that was the gist.

Nisses

So all those ninjas and samurais all had boobs and were infertile? No wonder they died out.

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Charlatan

Glad to see snowy is on the case... I was going to point out just what she pointed out.

I think you also need to take all of this with a grain of salt. I know many (many!) people in Asia that eat a lot of soy and they have no trouble reproducing or with mantits.

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JustJess

Also, you need to look at the actual study. Many studies are just piss-poorly designed, and should not be taken as evidence of anything... except that somebody tried to analyze information badly.

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ktspktsp

Whatever. I want my tofu. As long as my swimming team is still good enough to qualify for the regionals, I'm eating tofu.

roachboy

mostly, what snowy said.

soy was henry ford's wonder food, the crop that would save all of us from everything.
like most other crops in the states, you can't think about it as a category "soy" but rather as a function of the industrial food system (monocrop, chemistry, processed) or another. in the first system, soy acquires many of the problems other crops have acquired as a function of the subordination of nutrition to profits, of flavor to profit if only money tasted better maybe we should just eat that. in the other systems, it's not bad for you at all. of course you can eat enormous amounts of it for protracted periods and maybe develop any number of side-effects, just as you can develop side effects from eating mcdonalds food-like stuff for a month or smoking joints the size of a table leg for a few.

the problems with gmo's from a production viewpoint and from a patent viewpoint are clear---the problems from an eating viewpoint are contentious---in the main there is very considerable evidence that gmos and processed foods more generally are not great for you to eat. to go further would require data, which i would think important but you never know---there's a ton of it available around gmo production and consumption.

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jorgelito

Yeah, that's just the thing though. How to separate fact from fiction. WillRavel says soy is very dangerous for you. Yet billions of Asians have been eating it for thousands of years without consequence and their sperm count definitely does not seem to be affected. But since I do enjoy my tofu, soy milk (the real kind not the western kind), and soy beans to much on while drinking beer, I am reluctant to give it up. Unless it is true that I will grow boobs and lose the wee wee. I will just have to find a soy substitute. Like meat.

Almond milk is awesome too, but I like the neutral flavor of soy milk (like cow's milk).
-----Added 7/8/2008 at 09 : 04 : 49-----
Yeah, I grew up in Boston. Pretty much all Irish, Italian, and Jews. Most were lactose intolerant (which was not evident until we were adults). Geographically and demographically speaking, most lactose tolerant people are from the Nordic-Scandic regions. The rest of us are lactose intolerant; more so if you are from Africa, Asia, South America, Mediterranean Europe etc. It also matters if you are child or adult. Most children can tolerate lactose (which makes sense).

Almond milk is delicious.
-----Added 7/8/2008 at 09 : 06 : 07-----
Snowy: so you're saying normal soy products (Asian) are ok but western soy products are not?

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Willravel

Actually, I didn't. I was more the messenger for those who said that. I have yet to see enough data to make a conclusive and supportable decision. There is some evidence that it can do what *they* say it does, but there's also evidence that smoking isn't addictive. I prefer to get all the information before making my mind up.

KellyC

I love me some tofu and soy milk and a sweet gelatin-like soy desert and a bunch of other soy stuff. Had 'em for as long as I can remember, nothing wrong with me (or my uncles, dad, grandpas, cousins....so on...)

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jorgelito

Ooops, sorry to misquote you. But I agree, need more info. Conclusive info. I think thousands of years of culinary practice without harm would make soy a safe food. So for now, soy should be good to go unless stated otherwise I assume.

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Willravel

I still don't think that soy's use for 1000+ years necessarily guarantees it's safety. As I said, we used lead for about 8,400 years before we figured out just how dangerous it really is. This is why I'm on the fence about it. There is some evidence to suggest that it could be harmful, but not enough so that I believe it's conclusive.

I avoid soy when I can.

Ayashe

It really seems to be an impossible feat to modify your diet for health purposes. One minute it is in one minute it is out. Countless changes in thinking in regards to what is good or harmful have come in during my life. These changes come about so fast sometimes it makes my head spin. Butter is better for you than margarine, no .. wait margarine is better, no ... it is butter I say! Fish is the ideal protein, but.. it can contain mercury so do not eat too much of it! Eggs are an ideal protein, but wait.. the fat, oh well that fat is not so bad for you after all. Ugh, I don't know how nutritionists handle it. I will eat soy, I do not eat a lot of it though, I think that is the key to most diet dilemmas.. moderation.

Willravel

Kat, eat mostly fruits and veggies, some lean meats, some whole grains and some dairy. Drink plenty of water and don't forget to take a multivitamin. That's pretty much it.

snowy

It's easier to find non-GMO soy products in the form of tofu, tempeh, and soy milk. Most Western soy products are raised from seed that has at the very least interacted with GMO seed; furthermore, it's that kind of soy that is largely sponsored via subsidies in the Farm Bill and used mostly in processed foods. What I'm really saying is that soy is more pervasive in the American diet than most people think it is. Furthermore, it's more often than not put into foods that are flat-out unhealthy.

I do eat tofu and tempeh (mmm tempeh), but I get it from these people: http://www.suratasoy.com/

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Nimetic

I wouldn't be too worried about soy - Asians have been eating it for a long time.

Baraka_Guru

The negative effects of the phytoestrogens on males is generally unfounded, as some have hinted here. There are no studies that show clear and conclusive data that there are negative effects to worry about.

If you are worried about estrogen levels, you should be concerned about dairy just as much or more so than soy. The dairy industry is well known to manipulate estrogen levels and reproductive cycles to maximize the production of cow's milk. Apparently, 60 to 70% of the estrogen in our food is derived from dairy.

Actually, some studies have shown that the phytoestrogens in fact "agonize" (i.e. compete with) the more potent endogenous estrogens that act in certain cancers. This would help explain, in part, why there are fewer cases of prostate and breast cancers in Asia (and vegans in general) than in the West.

If anything, soy is a relatively healthy alternative to dairy (and meat). The main difference being that no one suffers needlessly.

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jorgelito

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I definitely don't want to suffer needlessly as I like my tofu and soy foods. I just wanted to be sure that I won't grow boobies and my dick won't fall off. Stupid estrogen...

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