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View Poll Results: What makes us fat?
Maybe We're Too Stressed 27 50.94%
Maybe A Virus Is To Blame 1 1.89%
Maybe The Temperature Is Just Right 1 1.89%
Maybe It's All That High-Fructose Corn Syrup 44 83.02%
Maybe Low-Fat Foods Made Us Eat More 12 22.64%
Maybe We Take Too Many Drugs 7 13.21%
Maybe We Were Doomed Before Birth 13 24.53%
Maybe There's Too Much Pollution 2 3.77%
Maybe We're Not Sleeping Enough 21 39.62%
Maybe We Shouldn't Have Stopped Smoking 5 9.43%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 07-23-2008, 02:31 PM   #81 (permalink)
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I think what lurkette was really getting at is that the economics of commodities in this country subsidized by the Farm Bill mean that less healthy calories are cheaper for people to buy and consume. Time-wise, these cheaper calories are also easier to procure. In parts of this country, especially in inner cities, it is hard to find affordable produce. NYC has done a great job of addressing this issue with the introduction of greenmarkets, and other places have as well; here, our farmers' market takes food stamps. However, a lot of markets aren't set up for that sort of thing, and furthermore, for the poor and already overweight, getting to a farmer's market over a grocery store nearby is not really feasible, especially if one has put in an 8-hour+ day. Is a poor person with a weight problem really going to put in the time and effort it takes to eat healthily (shopping at the farmer's market, spending $20+ a week on fresh produce, finding ways to cook said produce, prepping and cooking said produce) or are they going to go for the cheap box of macaroni and cheese that takes 20 minutes to prepare from start to finish? It does take a great deal of effort to buy, prep, and cook fresh food--even Rachael Ray takes a lot of short cuts in her 30 Minute Meals, and many of them are completely unreasonable if you're on any sort of budget.

Yes, a head of romaine lettuce is 99 cents here, but I know it's not the same price elsewhere, and it's certainly more expensive to purchase the romaine that's pre-washed and cut.

We can insist all we want about personal willpower and responsibility, but the fact is that the economics of food in this country set people up to fail, depending on where they live.
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Old 07-23-2008, 02:39 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by onesnowyowl View Post
I think what lurkette was really getting at is that the economics of commodities in this country subsidized by the Farm Bill mean that less healthy calories are cheaper for people to buy and consume. Time-wise, these cheaper calories are also easier to procure. In parts of this country, especially in inner cities, it is hard to find affordable produce. NYC has done a great job of addressing this issue with the introduction of greenmarkets, and other places have as well; here, our farmers' market takes food stamps. However, a lot of markets aren't set up for that sort of thing, and furthermore, for the poor and already overweight, getting to a farmer's market over a grocery store nearby is not really feasible, especially if one has put in an 8-hour+ day. Is a poor person with a weight problem really going to put in the time and effort it takes to eat healthily (shopping at the farmer's market, spending $20+ a week on fresh produce, finding ways to cook said produce, prepping and cooking said produce) or are they going to go for the cheap box of macaroni and cheese that takes 20 minutes to prepare from start to finish? It does take a great deal of effort to buy, prep, and cook fresh food--even Rachael Ray takes a lot of short cuts in her 30 Minute Meals, and many of them are completely unreasonable if you're on any sort of budget.

Yes, a head of romaine lettuce is 99 cents here, but I know it's not the same price elsewhere, and it's certainly more expensive to purchase the romaine that's pre-washed and cut.

We can insist all we want about personal willpower and responsibility, but the fact is that the economics of food in this country set people up to fail, depending on where they live.
Ok, this is a whole different ball game. In that sense, I would agree that for example, school lunch menu planning needs to be more healthy. Ditto for vending machines. As a formerly poor person, I know all too well the challenges of obtaining healthy foods. Many neighborhoods simply do not have a reasonable choice. Example, in LA, some places do not even have a normal grocery store within a 10 mile radius but will have dozens and dozens of liquor stores, fast food joints etc. I used to take a bus to buy my groceries and was limited to what I could carry. But I was dedicated. I actually find healthy foods to be cheaper than processed junk foods. Clipping coupons helped, buying food in season helped.

These things go hand in hand. You have to be disciplined and help yourself. At the same time, the infrastructure (grocery stores, healthy lunch menus) need to be in place as well.
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:41 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:49 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Ok, this is a whole different ball game. In that sense, I would agree that for example, school lunch menu planning needs to be more healthy. Ditto for vending machines. As a formerly poor person, I know all too well the challenges of obtaining healthy foods. Many neighborhoods simply do not have a reasonable choice. Example, in LA, some places do not even have a normal grocery store within a 10 mile radius but will have dozens and dozens of liquor stores, fast food joints etc. I used to take a bus to buy my groceries and was limited to what I could carry. But I was dedicated. I actually find healthy foods to be cheaper than processed junk foods. Clipping coupons helped, buying food in season helped.

These things go hand in hand. You have to be disciplined and help yourself. At the same time, the infrastructure (grocery stores, healthy lunch menus) need to be in place as well.
Grocery stores already include everything that is needed for one to eat a healthy diet. It's called the produce section. It's been there all along. In fact, in most stores, it's the first section you see. However, most people bypass it all together and go right to the twinkies and potato chips.

Shesus and I found that eating most of our food from the produce section not only keeps us healthier, but it cut our monthly food bill drastically. Buying healthy, fresh food is actually cheaper than buying the processed food. Only, you can't microwave a salad. You actually have to make it. Well, even now there are pre-tossed salads in a bag.

Aside from the afore-mentioned maladies that cause obesity, in today's society, I think it actually takes more effort to eat a lousy diet than it does to eat healthy.

Now, on an entirely different front. People with eating addictions aren't going to get a damn bit of help simply by changing what they eat. They need to find the root of their addiction and deal with that, otherwise they will never get past the fact that their overeating is an addiction, not a conscious choice. There are people who do exercise, but eat so goddamn much it nullifies any benefit exercising gives them.
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:56 PM   #85 (permalink)
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JJ, there are some places 9neighborhoods) that don't have grocery stores period. Hence, no produce.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:21 PM   #86 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by jorgelito View Post
JJ, there are some places 9neighborhoods) that don't have grocery stores period. Hence, no produce.
Quite true--West and North Philly are two places that I know of (from personal experience--measuring this exact phenomenon on a study of fresh produce availability in low-income Philadelphia) that are produce deserts, basically. The only fresh food I saw in those 100 or so grocery stores that I surveyed were onions, potatoes, and (usually old) tomatoes. And those were the "good" stores.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:32 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Here's one of the things that doesn't get talked about very much in the US. The average household spends roughly 9% of household income on food. This compares to 11% in the United Kingdom, 16% in France, 17% in Japan, 27% in South Africa and 53% in India. (These are numbers form 2004).

The US is able to do this largely because of the issues that onesnowyowl has raised around the Farm Bill and subsidies. The subsidies have produced a glut of produce such as corn and soy beans. This is not the corn of "corn on the cob" this is industrial corn and soy beans that are used as a supply of food for vast, industrialized cattle feedlots and the building blocks of processed foods.

I have read somewhere that if you need 1500 calories a day to survive and you were to buy 1500 calories of fresh food vs. 1500 of processed foods you would spend approximately $1.50 on the processed and $4.00 on the fresh. (caveat... I am doing this from memory so the numbers might be off a bit, the point is the divide between the expense of fresh vs. processed). Processed foods are less healthy.

The Farm Bill is about creating large quantities of cheap food and the US has been very successful at doing just this since the early 70s when the Nixon Administration made this a priority and altered the existing policy.

One thing of note: I wonder how the drive to use the surplus corn for ethanol will effect food prices. Wait... Secret report: biofuel caused food crisis. It looks like it already has.
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Old 07-24-2008, 06:42 AM   #88 (permalink)
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You don't. People will either take responsibility for themselves or they won't. But as long as government is there to bail them out every time they fuck up...most people aren't likely to change their stupid ways.
The basic flaw in this argument is dualistic thinking. There are only two options in your ideology: bootstrap individualism, or government paternalism. The real picture is much more nuanced. There is a role for collective, civic action (think "government" if you must) that isn't a "bailout" and that does not neglect the role of individual action.

This is an interesting article that addresses some of these issues:
eMJA: Obesity, law and personal responsibility

Some highlights:
"Personal choice will be influenced by the environment in which people are making that choice. 'People are more likely to exercise personal responsibility if they’re not expected to swim against a current of advertising and promotion.' "

and

"A spurious dichotomy: Despite all the controversy, personal responsibility and the wider community response are not on opposite sides of the fence, says Chris Reynolds. 'These two ideas are inextricably linked. One is necessarily supported and sustained by the other. The community must create the environment that maximises the potential for people to make healthy choices.' And Magnusson’s answer to that question from the floor about how the law can help reframe this debate? 'We can turn it around and say that, if we really want to deliver on autonomy or individualism, we need to introduce legislation that allows people full freedom of choice.' "

This is a public health issue - it costs all of us billions of dollars. And it's not SOLELY the result of individual action...you can't separate people from the context in which they live. If you want to look at it as an issue of fairness, you're not asking people living in different circumstances to make the same choices. Healthy choices can cost more in time, distance, and money for those who live in communities where those choices are not planned for or incidentally convenient. If you want the situation to actually change, you have to admit that there is a utilitarian value in changing that context to enable or encourage choices that make people healthier and cost us all less money.
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Old 07-24-2008, 06:59 AM   #89 (permalink)
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How would you explain lower rates of obesity in poorer countries than the US where people also do not have the convenience of healthy eating/lifestyle?
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Old 07-24-2008, 07:54 AM   #90 (permalink)
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How would you explain lower rates of obesity in poorer countries than the US where people also do not have the convenience of healthy eating/lifestyle?
Fewer calories and no desk jobs?
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:02 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:08 AM   #92 (permalink)
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JJ, there are some places 9neighborhoods) that don't have grocery stores period. Hence, no produce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya View Post
Quite true--West and North Philly are two places that I know of (from personal experience--measuring this exact phenomenon on a study of fresh produce availability in low-income Philadelphia) that are produce deserts, basically. The only fresh food I saw in those 100 or so grocery stores that I surveyed were onions, potatoes, and (usually old) tomatoes. And those were the "good" stores.
I stand corrected on that. I guess that brings me to the next step of my thought process...why isn't there access to fresh produce in these areas? Is it because grocery stores are absent altogether from those neighborhoods or because they are there, but just don't carry those items? And if it's the latter, why don't they carry fresh produce?

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it.
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:34 AM   #93 (permalink)
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I stand corrected on that. I guess that brings me to the next step of my thought process...why isn't there access to fresh produce in these areas? Is it because grocery stores are absent altogether from those neighborhoods or because they are there, but just don't carry those items? And if it's the latter, why don't they carry fresh produce?

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it.
There are a variety of reasons; it may be that the channels of distribution for fresh food that exist in other parts of the country do not exist there, or else they exist only to distribute fresh food to restaurants, and not to smaller commercial customers like a convenience store (this was an issue in NYC that they chose to address by opening the greenmarkets). Furthermore, produce is a product that comes with little margin for profit; the consumer is not paying much more than the store paid to purchase it. There are many places in urban areas that completely lack anything beyond a convenience store as a result of "white flight" in the 70s.

I was surprised to find that Wikipedia actually now has an entry for the term "food desert": Food desert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The NYTimes search feature is still in beta so I had a bear of a time finding this article to share, so I hope you read it; I think it explains a lot in regards to just how the farm bill impacts how people in the United States of America eat:

Food - Supermarkets - Obesity - Nutrition - Calories - Farmers - Agriculture - New York Times

Quote:
You Are What You Grow by Michael Pollan   click to show 
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Old 07-25-2008, 05:19 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Maybe it's because we eat too much and don't move around enough (he said while drinking a coke and nibbling a pretzel in his chair in front of his computer....)

There is no other reason.

The rest is all wishful thinking.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:14 AM   #95 (permalink)
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I didn't vote for any of those options. I wish Ustwo had weighed in on this post. The culprit is an overactive pancreas, which leads to hypoglycemic shock (or "not feeling satisfied" after your meal). I've tried explaining this to many people, but no one ever seems to believe me, even though it is documented fact, and I serve as a living example. I recommend the South Beach Diet. It is based on real science, designed by a real doctor. I lost 20 lbs just by doing the "diet", and once I added light exercise to it I lost another 20 lbs, and I've kept it off for a year with very little effort, no exaggeration.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:30 AM   #96 (permalink)
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I didn't vote for any of those options. I wish Ustwo had weighed in on this post. The culprit is an overactive pancreas, which leads to hypoglycemic shock (or "not feeling satisfied" after your meal). I've tried explaining this to many people, but no one ever seems to believe me, even though it is documented fact, and I serve as a living example. I recommend the South Beach Diet. It is based on real science, designed by a real doctor. I lost 20 lbs just by doing the "diet", and once I added light exercise to it I lost another 20 lbs, and I've kept it off for a year with very little effort, no exaggeration.
Are you suggesting the biggest problem with overweight people in general is hypoglycemia? And would you suggest that these cases are mostly diet-based? Refined carbohydrates in the amount that many North Amercicans eat them would certainly be a good "breeding ground" for this condition. I don't think you see hypoglycemia nearly as common in developing countries.
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:54 AM   #97 (permalink)
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I should've been more specific. It's a case of relative hypoglycemia. People eat refined carbs, which are quickly absorbed, which leads to a quick response by your pancreas of insulin secretion. This quick drop in blood sugar is what makes people not feel "satisfied". I've only studied diabetes a little (I have my bachelor's degree in clinical laboratory science, just graduates, w00t!), but from my understanding, the drop in blood sugar doesn't have to land you into an actual hypoglycemic range.

Say you drink a large drink with lots of sugar in it (think StarBucks frappuccino for example). Your blood sugar level may shoot up to 190 mg/dl (with the normal range being about 70 to 120 mg/dl, depending on which book you look at). Your pancreas quickly responds and brings your sugar level down to 125 mg/dl. Your blood sugar level is still too high, but because of the quick drop, you develop relative hyoglycemia, which makes you feel just as hungry and unsatisfied as actual hypoglyemia would. You proceed to consume more sugar to alleviate this dissatisfaction, and in the process bring your sugar level way up beyond normal levels again, and the whole thing becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. True hypoglycemia is when your blood sugar level dips below about 50 mg/dl (again, depending on what book you look at, but it's around that range), which also makes you feel hungry.
I like your signature Baraka_Guru, especially the T.S. Eliot quote. Consider this to be one of those tidbits of truth that people would rather not hear. And consider this: following wherein you control your sugar level (again, I can't recommend a South Beach Diet book enough) can actually cure some cases of type 2 diabetes.
I don't know much about the eating habits of people around the world, but I would assume that places where diabetes, heart disease and obesity are not a problem are places where refined carbs are scarce or shunned.
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Old 08-01-2008, 08:21 PM   #98 (permalink)
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We as humans have a tendency to overanalise the shit out of evertyhing. Bottom line..........too much food (portions much bigger at restuarants than 20 years ago) and less exercise. We in North Amercia are LAZY!

Too many excuses.......product of a self indulgent society.
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Old 08-01-2008, 09:20 PM   #99 (permalink)
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There is no bottom line. For example, there are many fat healthy people.
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Old 08-02-2008, 08:22 AM   #100 (permalink)
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There is no bottom line. For example, there are many fat healthy people.
But there is a difference between having a little extra pudge and being obese. When you suffer from serious health problems because you lack the self-control to eat healthily(i.e. reasonable portions, not a lot of junk, daily recommended fruits and vegetables) and are too lazy to get up off of your ass and exercise, then there is an issue. When most of the country is this way, then you have a national crisis. The bottom line is that we lack self-control and too many Americans are looking for the easy way out.

For crying out loud there's an epidemic of Type 2 Diabetes in children. Children aren't supposed to have Type 2 Diabetes.
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Old 08-02-2008, 11:33 AM   #101 (permalink)
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fat healthy people.
that's somewhat of a contradiction in terms, don't ya think?
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:16 PM   #102 (permalink)
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I voted high fructose corn syrup and was surprised to see I was in the majority. I think apathy and fast food are the real culprits. Dare to be different. Dare to be healthy.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:22 PM   #103 (permalink)
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I say: Enlarged stomachs from eating too much -> they feel empty more often -> more eating

solution? eat less food.
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Old 08-10-2008, 06:47 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Atreides88 View Post
But there is a difference between having a little extra pudge and being obese. When you suffer from serious health problems because you lack the self-control to eat healthily(i.e. reasonable portions, not a lot of junk, daily recommended fruits and vegetables) and are too lazy to get up off of your ass and exercise, then there is an issue. When most of the country is this way, then you have a national crisis. The bottom line is that we lack self-control and too many Americans are looking for the easy way out.

For crying out loud there's an epidemic of Type 2 Diabetes in children. Children aren't supposed to have Type 2 Diabetes.
I agree completely. But there are those who are technically "overweight" but have low blood pressure, healthy cholesterol levels, and are quite active, especially when compared to a lot of other people who might appear healthier. There are people who look healthy who are actually a complete wreck inside because of being sedentary and having a poor diet. They have low muscle mass but high body fat percentage. They have poor cardiovascular health from inactivity. Their cholesterol is through the roof. There are "fat" people who are far healthier than this. I'm sure there are doctors who tell them, "Well, you could stand to lose a little weight, but otherwise you're a picture of health." *Shrug*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sion
that's somewhat of a contradiction in terms, don't ya think?
Not necessarily, which is my point.
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Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 08-10-2008 at 06:49 AM..
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Old 08-10-2008, 07:44 AM   #105 (permalink)
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I agree completely. But there are those who are technically "overweight" but have low blood pressure, healthy cholesterol levels, and are quite active, especially when compared to a lot of other people who might appear healthier. There are people who look healthy who are actually a complete wreck inside because of being sedentary and having a poor diet. They have low muscle mass but high body fat percentage. They have poor cardiovascular health from inactivity. Their cholesterol is through the roof. There are "fat" people who are far healthier than this. I'm sure there are doctors who tell them, "Well, you could stand to lose a little weight, but otherwise you're a picture of health."
My mother and best friend from high school fit these examples perfectly.

My mother is overweight but has low blood pressure, normal cholesterol levels, and has an active job. Her doctor is far more worried about her mental health (she is chronically depressed) than her physical health. She could probably kick my ass if it ever came to that.

My friend has always been thin...in high school all she ate was candy and the cheese crackers from my brown bag lunch. I stayed with her a few years ago while she was in college in DC and her cupboards were full of canned soups and processed dinners. I don't remember seeing any fruits or veggies. Hardly the picture of health, despite being thin.

Me? I'm fat because I eat too much and don't exercise enough. I'm working on it, though.
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