The_Jazz

Explanation of what actually happened by the police

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Ustwo

Oh shit did I say 1782? I MEANT 1872.

Seriously, poor police work.

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The_Jazz

Says the guy who's entire profession is known for it's shitty penmanship. Sometimes that's all it is.

Ever over- or under-proscribed someone because the pharmacist couldn't read your handwriting, Ustwo? Same thing could have happened here...

[threadjack] I guess the lesson of the week for dental patients in Chicago is not to be sedated at your dentist's office in Lakeview if you're black. What, that's a girl and an adult woman in about 6 months?[/threadjack]

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Ustwo

What a weird response.

No I have never had an issue like that, and its a giant apple to orange anyways.

I would think if that if were in charge of people breaking down a door in the middle of the night, guns drawn, I'd like to double, triple and quadruple check the address.

If my hand writing was an issue and it caused someone to be hurt, that would be bad medicine. This is bad police work, they almost got killed or could have gotten someone else killed.

And your comment at the end is just baffling.

Having a bad day at work today?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

JustJess

Actually, yeah, Jazzy - I am completely baffled by your post. Sure, Ustwo is often a putz, but in this case? He's just arguing that the police should be doing their jobs well enough to not knock down the wrong door. This could have been really awful, and it's sheer luck that it wasn't. What does that have to with anything you wrote? So confused... you are not usually confusing.

Of course, as Crompsin or somebody pointed out, they were really crappy marksmen. If that's any indication of their ability to do their jobs... No wonder they went to the wrong house. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they missed on purpose when they saw the guy didn't match the description of the suspect. ???

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Willravel

And the planners are? Was it the team leader who led the assault? Or was it someone back at the station? Was it the person leading the investigation of the actual guilty party?

Edit: Turns out it was an informant. Not the police at all. Sorry, I know how you want to stick it to the man.

The_Jazz

Not a crappy day, just a distracting one. I have too many things going on at once here, not to mention worry about what's going on at home (look for a signature update in my very near future). Anyone know of a market for an EIFS contractor? No? Then I'll move on to relevancy.

Let me elaborate now that I have some time. Police get info from informant. Everything is jotted down quickly. They go back to read what they've written and - oops - it's hard to read. They went to the wrong house because someone couldn't figure out if that was an "8" or a "4" or two numbers got transposed. They're human. It happens. If the informant's not available to check with, they have to make a judgement call. Unfortunately they chose wrong. Thankfully no one was seriously hurt or killed. Potentially, the whole problem stems from the fact that Officer Friendly got a "C" in 2nd grade writing class.

Ustwo got singled out because I've been reading a lot about doctors moving to electronic prescriptions because of their notoriously bad penmanship. It's both a work issue for me (for a variety of reasons) and a personal one since it almost killed a family member. The pharmacist didn't check the dosage with the doctor before filling a prescription for a drug. The pharmacist couldn't read the handwriting on the note.

And there have been two deaths in dentists chairs in the Chicago neighborhood he practices in recently, both African American females. One was about 6, and the other was a very popular high school (I think) principal this week. Just an ironic thing that happened, and whenever I see stories about Chicago dentists, Ustwo's always the first guy I think of.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

savmesom11

I live in MN and apparently they did announce themselves but the "language barrier" prevented the message from being heard. The police are completely at fault here but people make mistakes, they are lucky it wasn't a deadly one.

filtherton

I'm sorry, but i'm pretty sure that the informant's role in this fuck-up is irrelevant. The informant didn't kick down some completely innocent person's door and start a gun fight.

I understand that shit happens, but i also understand that when it does happen it is the responsibility of the people who fucked up to step up and take their lumps.

Baraka_Guru

"Irrelevant" is a strong word. The informant had a key role in this. Are you suggesting the informant should be absolved of all responsibility? It isn't the informant's job to kick down the door. Their job is to inform. What was the first thing that went wrong here?

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Terrell

It's the police's fault in my opinion. It should be their responsibilty to make sure that they have the right address. Since they're the ones initiating the action, they should be responsible to know that they're going to the right house, they should have to identify themselves, and even most importantly, they need to do whatever investigative work necessary to make sure that they're entering the right house. Police have too much power to not be held responsible for their actions.

I also am opposed to no-knock warrants, as I think that they put both suspects (remember that suspects are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law) and police in more danger than is necessary. If they think that there are weapons, surround the house, cut off all exits, and order the person to come out with their hands up. Give them some time to comply, say 10 or so minutes (in case they need to get dressed). Bust in only if they don't comply with orders to come out.

Lasereth

I like how it's another police bashing story like normal...except it's really not. Let me get this straight...the cops knocked the door down, the guy in the house got a shotgun and shot TWO of the officers, over 30 rounds were exchanged, and the guy wasn't killed?

Where is the praise for the officers stopping and say "maybe he can't understand us because he's foreign?" No one cares about the fact that they could (and some might say *should*) have killed him, but didn't.

Yes they had the wrong door and yes there was fuckups all around but considering the cops didn't know they had the wrong address during the raid, it's freaking amazing that they didn't kill anybody, especially since two of their own were shot.

dksuddeth

when the police release that little fact, i'll get knocked over with a feather.

so which is it, they believed the informant implicitly, invading a law abiding citizens home? or they bungled the detailed investigation before applying for a no knock warrant?

and that says what?

read the article. the police didn't 'stop and think' something, one of the mans kids, who understood english' told his dad it was the cops, then the man dropped his weapon and raised his hands. don't give credit when none is due.

so law enforcement always gets a 'bye'? please tell me the rationale for that jacked up thinking?

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

How would you "stop and think" after someone took three shots at you through a doorway when you thought there was a gang member with weapons in there? At least give them credit for not killing anyone.

Officers taken off duty while an investigation takes place is a "bye"? The case of the 92-year-old mentioned above resulted in two officers pleading guilty to manslaughter and civil rights charges. How is that for "bye"?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Lasereth

I read the article completely and then read all four articles associated with it and not in one of the five did it mention that his kids had anything to do with it, especially not "translating" for the dad. Where do you see this?

filtherton

Maybe the informant's informant lied? How far back can you go? The first thing that went wrong is irrelevant, because it's completely arbitrary. Maybe the first thing that went wrong was the cops deciding that their informant was credible in this particular instance.

What matters is that the police somehow used bad information or corrupted good information to break down the door of and start a gunfight with someone who was completely undeserving. If you are in a position where you are knocking down someone's door with guns drawn, you better be damn sure that you're knocking down the right door, and if you happen to knock down the wrong door you need to be held accountable.

The_Jazz

http://www.startribune.com/local/12616796.html

9th paragraph

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Lasereth

That's nice. He tells me to read the article and the one listed in the OP and its links aren't Star Tribune.

Baraka_Guru

I agree with this, but I don't think the informant's role is irrelevant. If it weren't for the informant, there might not have been any roles at all. The cops wanted a gang member, and this guy has guns. They use a supposedly reliable informant to find out where he is, but it doesn't work out and there's a fuck up. Why is the informant's role suddenly irrelevant? Are you suggesting they leave this out of their investigation?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

As the article said, the informant was very credible. This implies that the informant may have supplied accurate information in the past or had some sort of corroboration. So here's a question: should they never trust informants? Or are we done asking stupid black and white questions that ruin threads just like this one whenever there are either guns or police officers making mistakes?

mixedmedia

How about this question. Let's say a police officer was killed:

This guy was innocent so naturally he should not be charged for trying to defend his family from what he believed to be intruders.

But what if he wasn't innocent, yet his first impulse was to grab his gun to protect his family from what he believed to be intruders?

Do the parameters of culpability change?

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roachboy

well, i know that in philadelphia if you are injured by the police in the course of an arrest at, say, a political demonstration, then you are charged with assaulting a police officer. local customs can be funny--you often don't know about them until something happens. but in principle, it'd be an justifiable homicide, wouldn't it?

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Baraka_Guru

Yes, I was thinking manslaughter at worst.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

mixedmedia

But it would be very easy to paint it as an aggressive action on the behalf of the suspect.

I'd just never thought of that before.

Carry on...

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Plan9

As a matter of legal opinion for a jury to decide? Sure. That's the joy of the system.

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dksuddeth

my bad. my apologies. I mixed up articles.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

roachboy

i watched some tv cop shows, so i know the following things:

1. cops can sometimes be idiots.
2. informants can sometimes be unreliable.
3. swat teams are kinda military.
4. if anyone is going to raid the wrong house, it's a swat team.
5. but they don't always raid the wrong house, or they'd just be stupid to have around.
6. if someone has a gun and thinks "if my home is invaded, i will use this gun" and then that persons home is invaded--because if you want a home invasion done right, get the professionals--then that person might be inclined to use that gun.

maybe swat teams are a bad idea.
why do we "need" them exactly?
i wouldnt imagine that a cop who walked a regular beat in that neighborhood would have fucked up the address. just saying.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dksuddeth

no, I think i'll ask a bunch more stupid black and white questions since you can't supply decent answers to any.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

Basically: SWAT is an escalation reaction to the criminal element in the US. I sincerely doubt Barney Fife is equipped to handle some of today's especially bad badguys.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

The informant was credible. The informant was credible. The informant was credible. I did answer your question, but you chose to ignore it.

The informant, which had earned the reasonable trust of the police department, fucked up. That's where the mistake was made, not among your mortal enemies the police.

filtherton

I see what you're saying. Maybe irrelevant is a bad word. While the informant most definitely had some direct causal effect on the mistake made by the cops (at least that's what the police are claiming), i think that ultimately the responsibility falls directly on the police.

cheetahtank2

While i believe upholding customs and tradition is important it is also, I think common courtesy to learn a nations language if you plan on living there. I know that I would at least make an effort to learn the native language of a place I planned on living at.

jewels

dksuddeth, how can this be seen as translating for the father? I think we understand that he doesn't speak English, but he still hadn't known their door had been broken down.

9th paragraph
Translating gunfire?

dksuddeth

There are obviously parts missing from multiple news reports. I've read where the police announced their presence and then this one where it obviously omits that part. All I'm doing is going off all the multiples and figuring out an obvious chain of events.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Ustwo

But still, one is bad medicine, and one is bad police work. NEITHER is excusable.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

biznatch

IMO, if the police had taken the time to checked who lived in the house where they were gonna bust in and shoot (badly), they could've seen it was an asian man, not a black gangmember. I don't know, talk to a neighbour, mail-person, do whatever it takes to check your facts.
As for the translation problem...if they shouted "POLICE", I think most non-english speaking people living in the US would know what that means.
As for those saying it's good that they didn't shoot him, I think it's terrifying that they are such lousy marskmen. (even though I am happy that the guy survived).

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cheetahtank2

They are trained only as well as the money they are provided with and if they took the time to give a deep background search on every subject they would really be useless. Imagine a bomb threat is called in by a neighbor who has heard strange noises from the house next door and they swear they saw something resembling explosives. Instead of charging in to make sure they run a background check examining the neighbor and the next day while they're running their checks boom a neighborhood is gone.

F.W.I. swat stands for special weapons and tactics they can shoot.