Depressed man hangs himself live in webcam chat room... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

analog · 03-24-2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

A DEPRESSED dad hanged himself live on the web as some of the 50 people watching egged him on.

Divorced heavy drinker Kevin Whitrick, 42, broadcast his threat on chat site Paltalk two hours before he went ahead.

Then he set up a webcam, climbed on a chair, smashed a hole in a ceiling, tied a rope around a joist and his neck — and stepped off. Some thought it was a hoax until his face went blue.

Horrified Mark Griffiths, who watched him die, said: “Kevin was on the screen shouting, ‘I’ve had it, you think I am full of s***, not this time’.

“Some people were egging him. One guy shouted down his microphone, ‘F***ing do it, get on with it, get it round your neck. For f***’s sake. He can’t even do this properly’.

“Others were telling him not to go through with it. I saw it all and felt sick.”

Electrician Kevin — username Shyguy_17_1 — was in an ‘insult’ chatroom.

User Tim Bennet, 40, said: “A couple of people told me what he was planning. Then Shyguy_17_1 turned his camera on.

“He hung a rope over a joist and tied it around his neck. And then he did it.

“At first I thought it was a fake as you couldn’t see his feet, but then his face started turning blue. There were about 50 of us in the chatroom at the time.

“The mood suddenly changed, everyone was concerned for him and talked about calling the police.”

A moderator cut the feed. Cops broke into his flat in Wellington, near Telford, Shrops, but it was too late.

Locals said Kevin bought eight cans of Boddington’s beer from his local shop every night.

Ex-wife Paula said he had not fully recovered from a serious car crash last July. She lives nearby with the couple’s twins Lewis and Melissa, 12.

Last night she said: “Kevin was a loving father and family man. He was the life and soul of the party and loved by many.”

He is the first Briton to kill himself live on the web. In 2003, chatroom users goaded American Brandon Vedas, 21, into taking a drug overdose at home in Phoenix, Arizona.

One thing that really stuck out for me was the fact that the article seems to blame the asshats in the chat room. This is not to say they weren't goading him on, but her was in an "insult chatroom". Second, who would even believe something like that was ACTUALLY happening in front of them (especially since you couldn't see his feet) until you're presented with actual evidence (like his face turning blue)?

Do you really think that any blame could be placed on the people in the chat room, or do you think it was simply the wrong room for him to be in? I mean, he's an alcoholic and suffering from depression, and he went into a chatroom specifically for insulting people. He can't have expected sympathy, especially not on the internet in a random chat room.

Also, what do you think about the spectacle itself, a man who's so far gone that he wishes to kill himself in front of people who are impotent to do anything about it. Is it his last "fuck you" to the world, making 50 people watch him take his life?

I think he was in the wrong place for his state of mind, like going to a bar when you need to sober up. The people are asshats anyway, but really who is going to expect a person in everyday life to just go ahead and off themselves right there in front of you?

Dilbert1234567 · 03-24-2007, 10:06 AM

I'd like the people who egged him on should be charged with involuntary manslaughter. having lost a friend to suicide, i know that all threats should be taken seriously. if we'd all take a second to hug a stranger, i swear we'd see a drastic drop in suicides.

if anyone needs a hug in California, give me a buzz.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-24-2007, 10:06 AM

This is one of the most disturbing stories I've heard lately. This guy wanting to share his suicide with a bunch of strangers strikes me as most pitiable, and probably even stranger than their watching it, given what passes for entertainment these days... I hope his kids never see it.

Menoman · 03-24-2007, 11:04 AM

I probably would have egged him on as well, That's just how these things work when you run in those types of chats.

It's hardly the viewers fault for this, how are they to know he was serious? There's so much shit goin on here in the big WWW that its pretty safe to say, it ain't true unless you can prove it.

analog · 03-24-2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

I'd like the people who egged him on should be charged with involuntary manslaughter. having lost a friend to suicide, i know that all threats should be taken seriously. if we'd all take a second to hug a stranger, i swear we'd see a drastic drop in suicides.

I'm sorry for your loss, but this is a gross oversimplification of a complex issue. The man was an alcoholic and severely depressed- at least partly so because of the car accident back in July '06 from which he still has not yet fully recovered- he didn't need a hug, he needed a strong support base, therapy, and detox.

It's nice to want to change the world, and it's nice to extend pleasantries to strangers, but there are many cases where a kind word is far from sufficient to bring a person back from the edge like this... and trying to put the blame on anyone other than the person who took their own life won't bring them back, nor will it circumvent the one truth in all suicides: they are a personal choice.

Dilbert1234567 · 03-24-2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

I'm sorry for your loss, but this is a gross oversimplification of a complex issue. The man was an alcoholic and severely depressed- at least partly so because of the car accident back in July '06 from which he still has not yet fully recovered- he didn't need a hug, he needed a strong support base, therapy, and detox.

It's nice to want to change the world, and it's nice to extend pleasantries to strangers, but there are many cases where a kind word is far from sufficient to bring a person back from the edge like this... and trying to put the blame on anyone other than the person who took their own life won't bring them back, nor will it circumvent the one truth in all suicides: they are a personal choice.

i understand my comment was an over simplification, however, if this guy felt more love over the years, maybe he would not have gotten to the edge in the first place.

Eeeraq · 03-24-2007, 02:06 PM

I think, in much the same way that the majority of people who contemplate suicide usually are under the influence of alcohol when they do it, you know, to like get a little extra something to help go the final 10 and all (sorry it sounds so unsympathetic, I don't quite know how else to put it...), that he most likely went to the insult chat room for the sole reason that these people WOULD egg him on, allowing him to feel that much more miserable and kinda give him that final push. Its what I'd do.

(you know, if I were terribly depressed and seriously desired to end all this... which I'm not by the way. Just thought I should clear that up, because it sounded rather emo towards the end there.)

Jetée · 03-24-2007, 10:36 PM

From what I can infer from the story, did this perchance happen in the U.K. (the actual location of the suicide, not the entire online debacle, where it was "present").

This really strikes a nerve with me that perhaps The Digital Age is a revert in terms of societal welfare.
I mean, I doubt most of us take the time to assess what happens beyond our residence, work, school, let alone outside our countries to realize that our world is a bitter and cold reality filled with unseen tragedies and unheard cries of anguish.

I for one, hate living in such a harsh and cruel associational society where the only place one can feel secure to speak up is on a faceless buzzing marvel of technology.

I would advocate going out and relating yourself to any and all those around you, but that would be hoping for something that is far and away a possibility.

Just take away from such a travesty of a story that we need to remember that we are not alone in this world, and that there are actual human beings that live among us with real emotions that can sometimes falter if not appreciated.

~Jetstream

I just remembered what I forgot to post:
There is a song by OutKast from their album Aquemini that perfectly conveys the above-mentioned notions of how our society can morph into something so grotesque. Anyway, it's called Synthesizer and can really put some perspective on one's life!

Ilow · 03-25-2007, 07:34 PM

It's a very sad story indeed. I wonder what would have happened if even one person had tried to talk him out of it. It is also sad that people have become so skeptical and jaded that they didn't want to believe him until his face went blue. It was almost as if they feared being "punked" by someone more than they feared that another person would kill themselves in front of them. Of all the people i would prefer not to see alive, a depressed divorcee with a family and a job who drinks Boddingtons each evening isn't one of them.

pan6467 · 03-25-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

I'd like the people who egged him on should be charged with involuntary manslaughter. having lost a friend to suicide, i know that all threats should be taken seriously. if we'd all take a second to hug a stranger, i swear we'd see a drastic drop in suicides.

if anyone needs a hug in California, give me a buzz.

I agree with this, the people egging him on should be charged with Britain's version of involuntary manslaughter maybe just manslaughter period.

This person obviously had issues and needed someone. Perhaps this person just wanted someone to talk to and felt he had friends he could trust in the chatroom. Perhaps, he started talking to someone whom he considered "a friend" and the friend went about "insulting" him, thus pushing him over the edge. Perhaps, he started getting more depressed as the taunting continued and he started talking about how the world would be better off without him, people started goading him and teasing him worse and the scenario just continued until the man was dead.

One issue I have is the Moderator could have and should have "cut the feed" as soon as he showed a rope. The Moderator should have also called the police or someone nearby immediately and hoped to save a man.

Most people talk and attempt suicide for attention, BUT need to be listened to, not harassed and made to feel worse, because scenarios like this can and will play themselves out. The person seeks attention, people goad and dare the person to do it, and the person does to save face.

We have no idea what truly happened or what was said to push the man that far, but I feel sorry for his kids and ashamed people actually goaded him that far.

I was 12 years old had just had a date where we went and saw "Poltergeist". The girl and I made out (kissed a few times and held hands.... back then for a 12 year old that was big)... she said we were a couple. I get home ride over to a friend's house and he starts razzing me, saying she never said that and blah blah blah..... so we call her and of course she is telling him she never said that. I'm 12, I was hurt and so I pulled a knife out of the kitchen and thought I'd slit my wrist (I'd show them!).

But I didn't want to, I was just hurt and didn't know what to do. I felt betrayed. I ran out of the house and was just going to go home and return the knife later. Instead my friend followed me and when he caught up to me, he thought I was joking about slicing my wrist, so he started laughing and telling me to do it.

As I started, he lunged to grab the knife and I ended up slicing his hand, I saw blood and ran home.

I told my dad what happened, and he first calmed me down by saying my "friend" and "girlfriend" were probably teasing me and it went too far. Then my dad called over and my "friend" denied my slicing him. Turned out he wasn't supposed to have anyone over and so he was more scared to say anything than I had been.

The cut wasn't much at all, and he was just going to "kick my ass at school" when he saw me.

Needless to say we both got into serious trouble.

How my experience relates to this story is simple..... I can see how someone who is just hurt and looking for someone to talk to, and instead gets insulted by the friends he trusts can end up in the heat of the moment not thinking straight do something very stupid.

I just think in a scenario like that the chatters should have just either ignored him and allowed the moderator to try to talk to him or backed down and tried to rationalize with him while someone called for help.

I'd also hate to be 1 of those 50 that saw it happen...... their lives will forever be changed and some of them will feel massive guilt and depression themselves.

analog · 03-25-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

This person obviously had issues and needed someone. Perhaps this person just wanted someone to talk to and felt he had friends he could trust in the chatroom. Perhaps, he started talking to someone whom he considered "a friend" and the friend went about "insulting" him, thus pushing him over the edge. Perhaps, he started getting more depressed as the taunting continued and he started talking about how the world would be better off without him, people started goading him and teasing him worse and the scenario just continued until the man was dead.

As I mentioned earlier, the man did not need "someone". He needed real, professional help. A kind word or shoulder to cry on will only take you so far when you're talking about a chronically depressed alcoholic who's still got physical deficits resulting from a bad car crash 8 months before.

Also: while the goading him on was terrible, the idea that it could be considered manslaughter is sheer lunacy.

Also as was mentioned by someone else before, people who are suicidal often put themselves in situations where someone else can help them do it, by either pushing them over the edge or not paying attention to them. It's well documented with "jumpers" that they will pace back and forth, looking for someone to pay attention to them, to notice they're sad. When no one gives them attention, it gives them that extra "no one gives a shit" boost that they needed to actually make it happen.

A man who is depressed and actually looking to kill himself would absolutely go into an "insult" chat room. Where better to get worked up into a "yeah, i'm gonna DO this!" frenzy? And how is anyone in that chat room supposed to know he's serious? This is the internet- nothing is real until it's REAL.

Once again, that doesn't mean those people aren't assholes for egging him on, but it's ridiculous to suggest they're culpable.

He wanted to die, and used the people in that room to get his nerve up so he could do it. It's the perfect example of the selfishness of suicide... 50 people are now potentially riddled with guilt because he used them to work up his nerve to go through with it.

pan6467 · 03-25-2007, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

As I mentioned earlier, the man did not need "someone". He needed real, professional help. A kind word or shoulder to cry on will only take you so far when you're talking about a chronically depressed alcoholic who's still got physical deficits resulting from a bad car crash 8 months before.

Also: while the goading him on was terrible, the idea that it could be considered manslaughter is sheer lunacy.

Also as was mentioned by someone else before, people who are suicidal often put themselves in situations where someone else can help them do it, by either pushing them over the edge or not paying attention to them. It's well documented with "jumpers" that they will pace back and forth, looking for someone to pay attention to them, to notice they're sad. When no one gives them attention, it gives them that extra "no one gives a shit" boost that they needed to actually make it happen.

A man who is depressed and actually looking to kill himself would absolutely go into an "insult" chat room. Where better to get worked up into a "yeah, i'm gonna DO this!" frenzy? And how is anyone in that chat room supposed to know he's serious? This is the internet- nothing is real until it's REAL.

Once again, that doesn't mean those people aren't assholes for egging him on, but it's ridiculous to suggest they're culpable.

He wanted to die, and used the people in that room to get his nerve up so he could do it. It's the perfect example of the selfishness of suicide... 50 people are now potentially riddled with guilt because he used them to work up his nerve to go through with it.

1. He didn't reach out to someone "professional" he reached out to people for whatever reason, I assume he believed to be friends. As I stated, the moderator especially had a duty to put some form of an end to it, and again especially when the rope came out.

2. NO ONE wants to die. If you choose to believe he wanted to that's up to you and your opinion. Just as I choose to hold the opinion I do.

3. Yes, these people should be held accountable for their actions. There is a huge difference between the "jumpers" you want to use as an example and this man. Most jumpers don't carry on conversations with people watching them from below. This guy did, these people egged him on, thus they have blood on their hands.

We don't know all the facts, what led up to this, what was said, what kind of person he was in the room...... I am sure all those are factors to consider also.

Menoman · 03-26-2007, 03:38 AM

really the guy did not "obviously" need some help. We don't even know the guy.

This kind of shit happens on emo faggot myspace accounts every single day, you gonna call the police coz those retards are constantly talking about suicide?

Nah this shit happens every day on this here thing we call the net. Too bad for his kids he was the one in a million who actually meant what he said.

The "Cry Wolf" scenario doesn't just apply to a single person, if collectively people "Cry Wolf" too many times, nobody will believe anybody.

The_Jazz · 03-26-2007, 04:29 AM

I don't think that the people in the chat room are criminally liable for this one individual's actions given the tenor of that chat room. Perhaps the moderator is, if he was closely following the proceedings, but the individuals screaming encouragement were just playing along with what they thought was a game. The closest analogy I can come up with is a boxing match that results in the death of one of the boxers (the other one is superfluous in my arguement) - the referee might be liable for not stopping the fight soon enough but the audience, who was screaming for blood, isn't culpable.

Is it horrible? Yes. Is it a tragedy? Yes. Is it a crime? No, I don't think so.

Glory's Sun · 03-26-2007, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

I'd like the people who egged him on should be charged with involuntary manslaughter. having lost a friend to suicide, i know that all threats should be taken seriously. if we'd all take a second to hug a stranger, i swear we'd see a drastic drop in suicides.

No way. That would be a complete misuse of the law. Now first off I'm sorry for your loss. I've had a friend kill himself also. However, I can tell you that if I was in the room at the time, I would tell him to fucking do it or shutup. I can't stand people who whine all the time and talk about how they are going to kill themselves and end their pain. Do it already. I don't have time for your bitching. If they want to be that selfish then I really don't have a use for them.

I can tell you that if a stranger took a second to hug me, I'd take a second to punch him in the face. I don't think that people being nicer would show a drastic drop in suicides. I think parents should spend more time with their kids so the kids can have a better foundation for life. Now don't go blasting me telling me that parent's can't always be around. I know that. I'm a parent. What I'm saying is that I'm sick of seeing all these emo-whoring kids (now I sound old) bitching about daddy doesn't love me or mommy told me no or my hair isn't as cool as Timmy's! Then they put on a Dashboard cd and fucking slit their wrists. bah

Or how about the people who breakup with a wife or girlfriend or bf/husband and kill themselves? Why?? The problem here is that were already some underlying issues that came to a head when a major dramatic event took place. Perhaps instead of hugging more people, people should be educated better so they can see the warning signs and get people the help they need.

That being said, I find a strange beauty in suicide.. sort of like power of your own destiny. :shrug:

oh yeah.. I want to see this video.

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

No way. That would be a complete misuse of the law. Now first off I'm sorry for your loss. I've had a friend kill himself also. However, I can tell you that if I was in the room at the time, I would tell him to fucking do it or shutup. I can't stand people who whine all the time and talk about how they are going to kill themselves and end their pain. Do it already. I don't have time for your bitching. If they want to be that selfish then I really don't have a use for them.

I can tell you that if a stranger took a second to hug me, I'd take a second to punch him in the face. I don't think that people being nicer would show a drastic drop in suicides. I think parents should spend more time with their kids so the kids can have a better foundation for life. Now don't go blasting me telling me that parent's can't always be around. I know that. I'm a parent. What I'm saying is that I'm sick of seeing all these emo-whoring kids (now I sound old) bitching about daddy doesn't love me or mommy told me no or my hair isn't as cool as Timmy's! Then they put on a Dashboard cd and fucking slit their wrists. bah

Or how about the people who breakup with a wife or girlfriend or bf/husband and kill themselves? Why?? The problem here is that were already some underlying issues that came to a head when a major dramatic event took place. Perhaps instead of hugging more people, people should be educated better so they can see the warning signs and get people the help they need.

That being said, I find a strange beauty in suicide.. sort of like power of your own destiny. :shrug:

oh yeah.. I want to see this video.

I happen to agree with you gucci, but I think the "whining" and self-obsessed overtures we hear from people so much today (esp. on the internet) as well as the type of collapsed character that we might see inhabiting an "insult" chatroom are indicative of the same thing - a shallow, self-obsessed, spoiled culture that is losing, and in many cases, has completely lost touch with the virtues of character, humility and the moral fiber that comes from living a life outside of the cocoon of your own irreality. I think it's all pretty pathetic and disgusting.

Cynthetiq · 03-26-2007, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

No way. That would be a complete misuse of the law. Now first off I'm sorry for your loss. I've had a friend kill himself also. However, I can tell you that if I was in the room at the time, I would tell him to fucking do it or shutup. I can't stand people who whine all the time and talk about how they are going to kill themselves and end their pain. Do it already. I don't have time for your bitching. If they want to be that selfish then I really don't have a use for them.

I can tell you that if a stranger took a second to hug me, I'd take a second to punch him in the face. I don't think that people being nicer would show a drastic drop in suicides. I think parents should spend more time with their kids so the kids can have a better foundation for life. Now don't go blasting me telling me that parent's can't always be around. I know that. I'm a parent. What I'm saying is that I'm sick of seeing all these emo-whoring kids (now I sound old) bitching about daddy doesn't love me or mommy told me no or my hair isn't as cool as Timmy's! Then they put on a Dashboard cd and fucking slit their wrists. bah

Or how about the people who breakup with a wife or girlfriend or bf/husband and kill themselves? Why?? The problem here is that were already some underlying issues that came to a head when a major dramatic event took place. Perhaps instead of hugging more people, people should be educated better so they can see the warning signs and get people the help they need.

That being said, I find a strange beauty in suicide.. sort of like power of your own destiny. :shrug:

oh yeah.. I want to see this video.

really? no free hugs for you? Sometimes my day is just washed away by a hug from my wife when I get home, a vast difference from when I lived alone and just wait for it to dissapate on it's own.

http://freehugscampaign.org/

Quote:

Sometimes, a hug is all what we need.

Free hugs is a real life controversial story of Juan Mann, A man whos sole mission was to reach out and hug a stranger to brighten up their lives.

In this age of social disconnectivity and lack of human contact, the effects of the Free Hugs campaign became phenomenal.

As this symbol of human hope spread accross the city, police and officials ordered the Free Hugs campaign BANNED. What we then witness is the true spirit of humanity come together in what can only be described as awe inspiring.

In the Spirit of the free hugs campaign, PASS THIS TO A FRIEND and HUG A STRANGER! After all, If you can reach just one person

shakran · 03-26-2007, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

i understand my comment was an over simplification, however, if this guy felt more love over the years, maybe he would not have gotten to the edge in the first place.

Yes but by that argument the girlfriend who breaks up with the suicidal boyfriend risks getting charged with murder. Sorry, but people have to take responsibility for their own actions at some point. Yes joking about suicide is an asshole thing to do, and I think the people in the chatroom who were joking about it are assholes (And I do think they were joking - I don't think anyone seriously believed he was going to do it). However, being an asshole does not automatically make you guilty of a crime. This guy made the decision to hang himself. The responsibility for that rests squarely on his shoulders.

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 06:12 AM

And, yes, we have also lost touch with the importance of kindness and the impact it can have on the world as a whole...as is evidenced in cynthetiq's post.

Glory's Sun · 03-26-2007, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

really? no free hugs for you? Sometimes my day is just washed away by a hug from my wife when I get home, a vast difference from when I lived alone and just wait for it to dissapate on it's own.

There's a difference between getting a hug from my wife when I get home and a random stranger hugging me. So no I won't take any free hugs. If a person needs a hug from a stranger to get through the day, then perhaps it's time for that person to really evaluate their life.

I agree completely with shakran, people have to take responsibility for their actions. You committ suicide..then tough. It's not like you can take it back. When my friend decided to let me and a few others walk in on his blown to bits head.. I was pissed at his stupidity. I felt no sense of sorrow for him. I was sorry for his family.

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 06:30 AM

Yes, it was the guy's responsibility for taking his own life. I don't think the assholes in the chatroom should take on any liablility for what happened other than their own guilt for egging on a guy who hung himself in front of them. That is, if they are familiar with the concept of guilt.

The downside, in my opinion though, is that this guy is dead and the assholes who egged him on and those like them are still here to improve the quality of my life with their assholeness.

Sultana · 03-26-2007, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Yes, it was the guy's responsibility for taking his own life. I don't think the assholes in the chatroom should take on any liablility for what happened other than their own guilt for egging on a guy who hung himself in front of them. That is, if they are familiar with the concept of guilt.

I agree.

After spending a large portion of my childhood with a family member who constantly threatened suicide, yes, you do grow numb and even impatient with them. After years of threats, it does boil down to either do it or shut UP!

Re: the hugs from strangers bit, I understand and appreciate the motivation behind the thought, but first and foremost people need to provide their own validation. It is not my responsibility to emotionally bolster people who refuse to take care of themselves. If it was, I'd never get anything else done, and I'd likely get sucked into a black hole of emotional need without accomplishing anything.

Dilbert1234567 · 03-26-2007, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Yes but by that argument the girlfriend who breaks up with the suicidal boyfriend risks getting charged with murder. Sorry, but people have to take responsibility for their own actions at some point. Yes joking about suicide is an asshole thing to do, and I think the people in the chatroom who were joking about it are assholes (And I do think they were joking - I don't think anyone seriously believed he was going to do it). However, being an asshole does not automatically make you guilty of a crime. This guy made the decision to hang himself. The responsibility for that rests squarely on his shoulders.

not quite. if the girl friend takes a broken man and taunts him, and tells him to kill him self, and he does, she should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

i say Charged with, not found guilty of, the jury will decide if and who was responsible. i doubt the girl friend would be found guilty unless she really tried to have him kill himself. further i doubt more then just a few in the chat room would be charged, and only the worst of them found guilty if anyone. having not been there i don't know the circumstances.

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 07:30 AM

Well, I think there is a difference between growing weary of a familiar person's overtures about suicide over years and egging on a stranger in a chatroom who is threatening it. I had an aunt who threatened suicide for thirty years, made several half-hearted attempts at it (meaning she did it within situations that it was probable she would be caught and stopped before it was too late, which did turn out to be the case). And believe me, there was no shortage of eye-rolling and head-shaking among the members of my family when the conversation turned to her. Her life was also plagued by drugs, alcoholism and abusive relationships with men. She finally did it successfully a little over two years ago.

So again, I'll say that I don't believe that these folks in the chatroom should be held legally culpable for what happened, but I am under the opinion that someone ought to dropkick their asses 'til next Tuesday for being total fucking asshats. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Glory's Sun · 03-26-2007, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

not quite. if the girl friend takes a broken man and taunts him, and tells him to kill him self, and he does, she should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

i say Charged with, not found guilty of, the jury will decide if and who was responsible. i doubt the girl friend would be found guilty unless she really tried to have him kill himself. further i doubt more then just a few in the chat room would be charged, and only the worst of them found guilty if anyone. having not been there i don't know the circumstances.

So basically, if I tell you to jump off the bridge tonight and you do it, I'm responsible?? NO. I didn't push you off the bridge. You acted that on your own accord. A person is the final judge and bearer of their own actions. You can tell me how to run my business, but in the end it's my decision on how to run it.

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

not quite. if the girl friend takes a broken man and taunts him, and tells him to kill him self, and he does, she should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

i say Charged with, not found guilty of, the jury will decide if and who was responsible. i doubt the girl friend would be found guilty unless she really tried to have him kill himself. further i doubt more then just a few in the chat room would be charged, and only the worst of them found guilty if anyone. having not been there i don't know the circumstances.

Actually, if you remember the rape case that The Accused starring Jodie Foster was based on, people were arrested and convicted for egging on the rapists. And being that suicide is, I believe, legally a crime (at least here in the US) that such an idea as holding people responsible for egging on a suicide might not be totally without precedent. I dunno.

Glory's Sun · 03-26-2007, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Actually, if you remember the rape case that The Accused starring Jodie Foster was based on, people were arrested and convicted for egging on the rapists. And being that suicide is, I believe, legally a crime (at least here in the US) that such an idea as holding people responsible for egging on a suicide might not be totally without precedent. I dunno.

There is a difference between witnessing an event and urging to continue and watching an event with no capability to stop it and egging it on. The rape case was basically that there were people present who could have stopped the occurance but didnt. They indulged in it.

This case, (which really isn't a case IMO) is just some dumb fuck who was probably drunk and wanted to try and be a badass. The people who egged him on are not at fault as there was no physical way to prevent the event. When someone is going to kill themselves, no amount of "don't do it" will really matter.

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 07:41 AM

So if the event going on was a rape instead of a suicide, you don't suppose the people watching and egging it on would shoulder any culpability?

The_Jazz · 03-26-2007, 07:43 AM

Given that no one was physically present, I doubt that anyone could have physically stopped him, which is obviously what needed to happen. Let's also remember the venue of this chat room - "insults". One does not go there expecting polite and caring conversation regardless of mental states. This is as much a tragedy as anything else, but there's no need to expand on it by jailing or attempting to jail those who witnessed it. If this had happened in the US, any DA that attempted to file charges against the witnesses/chatters would be laughed out of court.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

So if the event going on was a rape instead of a suicide, you don't suppose the people watching and egging it on would shoulder any culpability?

That depends on if people knew it was a real rape or not. If they are witnessing something that they know or think is a real rape, yes they are culpable. The difference in this case is that no one knew it was a real suicide until it was too late.

Glory's Sun · 03-26-2007, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

So if the event going on was a rape instead of a suicide, you don't suppose the people watching and egging it on would shoulder any culpability?

I don't see how they really could as there was no way to stop the event from occuring.

The only way it would be criminal would be if the event were advertised and the viewers had a premeditation to watch the crime. With suicide, you can't tell when people are joking or not, so what are you supposed to do? Call the cops every time some emo kid cries wolf?

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 07:53 AM

Okay then, what if the rape victim were a child, and I don't bring that up for the emotional impact, but as an example of a situation in which there would be little doubt of its reality and legality.

shakran · 03-26-2007, 07:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

not quite. if the girl friend takes a broken man and taunts him, and tells him to kill him self, and he does, she should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Involuntary manslaughter means YOU killed the guy. That would be a bullshit charge.

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i say Charged with, not found guilty of

so you're advocating false and malicious prosecution? That's a really good way to get the state sued.

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having not been there i don't know the circumstances.

And yet you glibly advocate that we charge them with a felony and prosecute them? That's irresponsible at best. You're acting as though everyone automatically does anything they're told to do. If I tell you to kill yourself, then hey, you don't actually have to kill yourself. If you do, that's your decision.

Your argument would set a very, VERY bad precedent. Basically we're now making it a crime to give bad advice. So, for instance, if I thought a certain stock was a good idea and you took my advice, and then the stock crashed, I could be held responsible. If I tell you to buy a Yugo, you could prosecute me for giving you bad advice.

America has already gone far enough into the realm of no personal responsibility. Why should we now want to shed ALL shreds of responsibility?

Glory's Sun · 03-26-2007, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Okay then, what if the rape victim were a child, and I don't bring that up for the emotional impact, but as an example of a situation in which there would be little doubt of its reality and legality.

Well see that brings in a totally different realm of legal issues. Just viewing kiddie porn is a criminal act. So even if it were a pre-recorded deal, then obviously that would pose criminal charges if there were people egging it on.

I feel as though this is getting too stretched out. The point here is that a man killed himself and that's it.

I say big fucking deal it's his life.. and his stupidity.

If I witness a man getting shot in the street.. am I responsible or guilty of some crime?? No.. unless I don't cooperate with the ensuing investigation. I didn't shoot the man or cause that event to unfold.. just as the people watching this dumbass didn't cause him to put the rope around his neck. He did it himself.

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 08:03 AM

Well, I agree I am stretching it out, but that is the reality of the law and how determinations and conclusions are often drawn.

The most basic facts are, if this occurred in America, then there would have been individuals watching a live feed of a crime occurring and egging it on. That's the most basic fact. And I don't think stretching it out to accommodate shifting attitudes about different crimes is necessarily a bad thing. It makes you think.

analog · 03-26-2007, 08:11 AM

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Originally Posted by pan6467

1. He didn't reach out to someone "professional" he reached out to people for whatever reason, I assume he believed to be friends.

You assume that he regarded 50 strangers in an insult chat room... to be friends?

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2. NO ONE wants to die.

I disagree, and I wonder why you'd think this could possibly apply universally.

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3. Yes, these people should be held accountable for their actions. There is a huge difference between the "jumpers" you want to use as an example and this man. Most jumpers don't carry on conversations with people watching them from below.

Not to belabor the point, but many do. There's a whole documentary on the "jumpers" of the golden gate bridge, and in the footage are many examples of people chatting up passersby. When interviewed after the fact, the motivation of some of them was to talk to someone and see if they cared. Some said, flat-out, that if the person they talked to was nice to them, they would feel better and go home; most all of them, however, stated that if they were ignored or dismissed, that was it. It's a good documentary- very thorough.

My wish is not to debate your opinion- my point is that you assert your opinion as fact, and I am debating that assertion of fact. And yes- when you want to jail people over your opinion, you are asserting it as fact.

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Originally Posted by The_Jazz

The difference in this case is that no one knew it was a real suicide until it was too late.

Bingo!

The_Jazz · 03-26-2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

The most basic facts are, if this occurred in America, then there would have been individuals watching a live feed of a crime occurring and egging it on. That's the most basic fact. And I don't think stretching it out to accommodate shifting attitudes about different crimes is necessarily a bad thing. It makes you think.

MM - there was no crime until he did it. Yes, people "egged" him on, but did they do so with malace? I would expect in an evironment as what I imagine this chat room would be like that the use of props and other site "gags" (for lack of a better term) would be, if not commonplace, not be atypical.

This guy went looking for an audience that would egg him on. Blaming that audience for existing and holding them criminally liable serves no purpose. As has already been said better than I'm capable of, you can't prosecute someone for being an asshole.

Dilbert1234567 · 03-26-2007, 08:23 AM

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Originally Posted by shakran

Involuntary manslaughter means YOU killed the guy. That would be a bullshit charge.

no it doesn't

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Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

Involuntary manslaughter, sometimes called criminally negligent homicide in the United States or culpable homicide in Scotland, occurs where there is no intention to kill or cause serious injury but death is due to recklessness or criminal negligence.

Criminal negligence

Negligence consists of conduct by an individual which is not reasonable -- that is, the individual did not act with the care and caution of a reasonable person in similar circumstances. This "reasonable person" is fictitious, of course, but reflects the standard of conduct which society wishes to impose. Violation of this standard may lead to civil liability for the consequences of the negligent behavior.

Negligence rises to the level of criminal negligence where the conduct reaches a higher degree of carelessness or inattention, perhaps to the point of indifference.

it fits perfectly

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Originally Posted by shakran

so you're advocating false and malicious prosecution? That's a really good way to get the state sued.

not at all, there is suspicion that they did something wrong, if the DA feels there is enough suspicion, it will go to trial, and if the jury agrees there was a crime committed, they will be found guilty, thats how the legal system works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

And yet you glibly advocate that we charge them with a felony and prosecute them? That's irresponsible at best. You're acting as though everyone automatically does anything they're told to do. If I tell you to kill yourself, then hey, you don't actually have to kill yourself. If you do, that's your decision.

Your argument would set a very, VERY bad precedent. Basically we're now making it a crime to give bad advice. So, for instance, if I thought a certain stock was a good idea and you took my advice, and then the stock crashed, I could be held responsible. If I tell you to buy a Yugo, you could prosecute me for giving you bad advice.

America has already gone far enough into the realm of no personal responsibility. Why should we now want to shed ALL shreds of responsibility?

I'm for personal responsibility, both the responsibility of the person who committed suicide, and for the people who built him up to it.

I'm not saying they are guilty, I'm saying an investigation should look into whether or not they are responsible.

mixedmedia · 03-26-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

MM - there was no crime until he did it. Yes, people "egged" him on, but did they do so with malace? I would expect in an evironment as what I imagine this chat room would be like that the use of props and other site "gags" (for lack of a better term) would be, if not commonplace, not be atypical.

This guy went looking for an audience that would egg him on. Blaming that audience for existing and holding them criminally liable serves no purpose. As has already been said better than I'm capable of, you can't prosecute someone for being an asshole.

Did they do so with malice? Neither of us know. But I can say that I've heard stories of people doing the same thing in person, in the case of people who are threatening to jump off of buildings, for example - that there will be people on the street telling them to jump. I think it perfectly reasonable that there were people watching who were egging him on maliciously. And frankly, I can't fathom how you would egg someone on to suicide without malice. It's malicious whether you think the person in question is serious or not.

And again, I want to state that I'm not calling for the arrest of these people - just trying to stretch the ropes a bit.

Glory's Sun · 03-26-2007, 08:46 AM

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Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

no it doesn't

it fits perfectly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_manslaughter

I don't see how it would fit at all personally.

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not at all, there is suspicion that they did something wrong, if the DA feels there is enough suspicion, it will go to trial, and if the jury agrees there was a crime committed, they will be found guilty, thats how the legal system works.

Umm perhaps you should bone up on your legal system. Suspicion doesn't lead to a trial. It leads to an investigation. Only when there is sufficient evidence that a crime was committed will it be passed to a grand jury for indictment and then possibly move to a jury trial.

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I'm for personal responsibility, both the responsibility of the person who committed suicide, and for the people who built him up to it.

I'm not saying they are guilty, I'm saying an investigation should look into whether or not they are responsible.

See here is why there will never be any charges filed. No one knows what state of mind the man was in prior to his stupid act. He could have been planning to hang himself anyway. There's no way to tell, because the key witness is dead. Good riddance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Did they do so with malice? Neither of us know. But I can say that I've heard stories of people doing the same thing in person, in the case of people who are threatening to jump off of buildings, for example - that there will be people on the street telling them to jump. I think it perfectly reasonable that there were people watching who were egging him on maliciously. And frankly, I can't fathom how you would egg someone on to suicide without malice. It's malicious whether you think the person in question is serious or not.

And again, I want to state that I'm not calling for the arrest of these people - just trying to stretch the ropes a bit.

Who cares if they did it with malice? I sure don't. They didn't put the rope in the guys hands or place the circumstances that lead to the event. Should I be charged with manslaughter because I don't care that he did it? Is that malice to the criminal degree? Of course it isn't. The laws are quite clear on manslaughter charges and none of these egging on statements propose that kind of criminal comtempt especially in the virtual world.

analog · 03-26-2007, 09:03 AM

Dilbert1234567:

You are incorrect, and you are drastically stretching the written word of the article you posted to make it fit your point.

Manslaughter DOES mean YOU killed the person, through negligent action or inaction. Manslaughter is doing or not doing something that results in the death of another human being. You cannot MAKE a person kill themselves. You also cannot be negligent for lack of psychological support.

Suicide, by definition, is a person killing themselves. There can be no negligence by another person in suicide, because it involves no other people. Even if a crowd is watching on the internet. There is no such thing as a layperson failing to give psychological counseling.

At best, there are some places that have "samaritan" laws that make it punishable to witness a crime and not report it. However, this would only apply after it was discovered he was definitely killing himself, and someone was already saying to call the police by that time. These are normally a fine or very low "maximum" jail time.

The bottom line is, it is their choice, and no one else's.

03-24-2007, 10:06 AM	#2 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	I'd like the people who egged him on should be charged with involuntary manslaughter. having lost a friend to suicide, i know that all threats should be taken seriously. if we'd all take a second to hug a stranger, i swear we'd see a drastic drop in suicides. if anyone needs a hug in California, give me a buzz. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

03-24-2007, 10:06 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	This is one of the most disturbing stories I've heard lately. This guy wanting to share his suicide with a bunch of strangers strikes me as most pitiable, and probably even stranger than their watching it, given what passes for entertainment these days... I hope his kids never see it. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-24-2007, 02:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
Eeeraq Upright Location: Pigseye, MN	I think, in much the same way that the majority of people who contemplate suicide usually are under the influence of alcohol when they do it, you know, to like get a little extra something to help go the final 10 and all (sorry it sounds so unsympathetic, I don't quite know how else to put it...), that he most likely went to the insult chat room for the sole reason that these people WOULD egg him on, allowing him to feel that much more miserable and kinda give him that final push. Its what I'd do. (you know, if I were terribly depressed and seriously desired to end all this... which I'm not by the way. Just thought I should clear that up, because it sounded rather emo towards the end there.) __________________ remeber that one time we partied all night? me neither.

03-24-2007, 10:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
Jetée The Reforms Location: Rarely, if ever, here or there, but always in transition	From what I can infer from the story, did this perchance happen in the U.K. (the actual location of the suicide, not the entire online debacle, where it was "present"). This really strikes a nerve with me that perhaps The Digital Age is a revert in terms of societal welfare. I mean, I doubt most of us take the time to assess what happens beyond our residence, work, school, let alone outside our countries to realize that our world is a bitter and cold reality filled with unseen tragedies and unheard cries of anguish. I for one, hate living in such a harsh and cruel associational society where the only place one can feel secure to speak up is on a faceless buzzing marvel of technology. I would advocate going out and relating yourself to any and all those around you, but that would be hoping for something that is far and away a possibility. Just take away from such a travesty of a story that we need to remember that we are not alone in this world, and that there are actual human beings that live among us with real emotions that can sometimes falter if not appreciated. ~Jetstream I just remembered what I forgot to post: There is a song by OutKast from their album Aquemini that perfectly conveys the above-mentioned notions of how our society can morph into something so grotesque. Anyway, it's called Synthesizer and can really put some perspective on one's life! Last edited by Jetée; 03-24-2007 at 10:56 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

03-25-2007, 07:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ilow Junkie Location: Pats country	It's a very sad story indeed. I wonder what would have happened if even one person had tried to talk him out of it. It is also sad that people have become so skeptical and jaded that they didn't want to believe him until his face went blue. It was almost as if they feared being "punked" by someone more than they feared that another person would kill themselves in front of them. Of all the people i would prefer not to see alive, a depressed divorcee with a family and a job who drinks Boddingtons each evening isn't one of them. __________________ "Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about" --Sam Harris

03-26-2007, 04:29 AM	#14 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I don't think that the people in the chat room are criminally liable for this one individual's actions given the tenor of that chat room. Perhaps the moderator is, if he was closely following the proceedings, but the individuals screaming encouragement were just playing along with what they thought was a game. The closest analogy I can come up with is a boxing match that results in the death of one of the boxers (the other one is superfluous in my arguement) - the referee might be liable for not stopping the fight soon enough but the audience, who was screaming for blood, isn't culpable. Is it horrible? Yes. Is it a tragedy? Yes. Is it a crime? No, I don't think so. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-26-2007, 06:12 AM	#19 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	And, yes, we have also lost touch with the importance of kindness and the impact it can have on the world as a whole...as is evidenced in cynthetiq's post. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-26-2007, 06:30 AM	#21 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Yes, it was the guy's responsibility for taking his own life. I don't think the assholes in the chatroom should take on any liablility for what happened other than their own guilt for egging on a guy who hung himself in front of them. That is, if they are familiar with the concept of guilt. The downside, in my opinion though, is that this guy is dead and the assholes who egged him on and those like them are still here to improve the quality of my life with their assholeness. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-26-2007, 07:30 AM	#24 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well, I think there is a difference between growing weary of a familiar person's overtures about suicide over years and egging on a stranger in a chatroom who is threatening it. I had an aunt who threatened suicide for thirty years, made several half-hearted attempts at it (meaning she did it within situations that it was probable she would be caught and stopped before it was too late, which did turn out to be the case). And believe me, there was no shortage of eye-rolling and head-shaking among the members of my family when the conversation turned to her. Her life was also plagued by drugs, alcoholism and abusive relationships with men. She finally did it successfully a little over two years ago. So again, I'll say that I don't believe that these folks in the chatroom should be held legally culpable for what happened, but I am under the opinion that someone ought to dropkick their asses 'til next Tuesday for being total fucking asshats. Metaphorically speaking, of course. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-26-2007, 07:41 AM	#28 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	So if the event going on was a rape instead of a suicide, you don't suppose the people watching and egging it on would shoulder any culpability? __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-26-2007, 07:53 AM	#31 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Okay then, what if the rape victim were a child, and I don't bring that up for the emotional impact, but as an example of a situation in which there would be little doubt of its reality and legality. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-26-2007, 08:03 AM	#34 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Well, I agree I am stretching it out, but that is the reality of the law and how determinations and conclusions are often drawn. The most basic facts are, if this occurred in America, then there would have been individuals watching a live feed of a crime occurring and egging it on. That's the most basic fact. And I don't think stretching it out to accommodate shifting attitudes about different crimes is necessarily a bad thing. It makes you think. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-26-2007, 09:03 AM	#40 (permalink)
analog Banned	Dilbert1234567: You are incorrect, and you are drastically stretching the written word of the article you posted to make it fit your point. Manslaughter DOES mean YOU killed the person, through negligent action or inaction. Manslaughter is doing or not doing something that results in the death of another human being. You cannot MAKE a person kill themselves. You also cannot be negligent for lack of psychological support. Suicide, by definition, is a person killing themselves. There can be no negligence by another person in suicide, because it involves no other people. Even if a crowd is watching on the internet. There is no such thing as a layperson failing to give psychological counseling. At best, there are some places that have "samaritan" laws that make it punishable to witness a crime and not report it. However, this would only apply after it was discovered he was definitely killing himself, and someone was already saying to call the police by that time. These are normally a fine or very low "maximum" jail time. The bottom line is, *it is their* choice**, and no one else's.