The_Jazz

I'm sure that it was unintended, but I laughed at the pun at the end anyway. This guy stretched a rope all on his own...

Is it criminally malicious if you watch someone commit suicide on tape?
Is it criminally malicious if you watch someone commit suicide online?
Is it criminally malicious if you watch someone commit suicide in the same roome?
Is it criminally malicious if you yell "jump"?
Is it criminally malicious if you hand him the rope?
Is it criminally malicious if you kick the chair out from under him?
Is it criminally malicious if you tie the rope around his neck, lift him bodily and throw him out a window?

I chose examples that are a mix of "yes" and "no's" in my mind.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Dilbert1234567

"Negligence consists of conduct by an individual which is not reasonable"

do you find it reasonable to tell an emotional fragile person to kill them self?


I'm not saying they are guilty, i am saying there should be an investigation, i don't have all the facts, in all likelihood he would have killed himself anyways. i find it morally appalling that people would egg someone on to kill them self, if a criminal act took place, it should be prosecuted.

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

Bill O'Rights

In a similar vein, if I told you to go fuck yourself...would that be rape?

Morally appalling...yes, I agree. But, I don't buy into legislating morality. So, being an asswipe is not, in and amoungst itself, a criminal act. There's nothing to prosecute.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Dilbert1234567

i don't believe in legislating morality either. I'm a big fan of freedom of speech, there are limits though, you can't yell 'FIRE' in a crowded area unless there really is a fire. you can't yell 'I've got a bomb' on a plane.

if someone yells 'fire' in a crowded theater and people die because of a panic, i think that person is responsible.

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

Glory's Sun

The negligence in this law pertains to the fact that your negligence caused the death. You can't twist this into a suicide case because there is no mens rea because it's not a homicide. End of fact/story.

There is no criminal act that took place other than the suicide and that cannot be punished criminally because the man is both victim and criminal.

I find it morally appalling that people would try to pass the responsibility off to others in a case as this.

mixedmedia

They are a mix of yes's and no's in my mind, too, and again, I am not making a case for manslaughter or criminal negligence here.

I didn't intend to the word "malice" to be used in a "criminal" sense. Only that, I don't see how someone could be encourage someone to kill themselves without malice.

But my point is, that I don't think anyone here can draw a definite line on the culpability of people egging on the commission of a crime just because they are not in a position to physically prevent it. In this case we are talking about the crime of a person killing hisself. I think opinion on this issue would sway a lot more if the crime were of a nature that is not self-induced. And that is as it probably should be, or at least, as it should be expected. I just don't think that you can lay down any hard and fast culpability mandates because the people watching and encouraging couldn't have physically stopped it therefore they are free to behave unreasonably. I'm not willing to make that kind of blanket reprieve at this juncture. I mean, personal responsibility, right? It doesn't necessarily end because your "person" has been absorbed into the anonymity of the internet. Legally, perhaps it will remain that way, I fully comprehend the danger of toying with it. But, PERSONALLY, I do not absolve these people of responisbility for what happened. Hopefully some of that makes sense.

I've run out of time for writing. doh! gotta go...

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

The_Jazz

MM - just to drive you insane, go back and change "criminally" to "morally" and tell me if your mixes of "yes's" and "no's" changes. Interestingly (or not), mine doesn't.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

mixedmedia

Um, well. I might not find them all to be morally malicious. But I would certainly find them all morally reprehensible. But you are speaking to a person that predicted these sorts of questions, much to my dismay, would one day become questions way back on the release of the first Faces of Death film. Remember those? It disgusted me then and it disgusts me now.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Dilbert1234567

I'm not trying to pass all the blame off on to the viewers, he had a mind to kill him self, and most likely would have, however, some of the viewers are partly to blame for him committing suicide at that point in time. and its up to the law to decide if they should be punished, it is my view that the law does extend into this area. however knowing that the legal system in this country sucks and is bogged down with nuisance lawsuits and the like, this will never make it near a trial.

btw, how the hell do you spell 'new-sents' lawsuits I've racked my brain and i can't get it...

anyways, can we all agree that its a sad event?

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

Glory's Sun

I love Faces of Death.

Bill O'Rights

nuisance

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Dilbert1234567

*hug*

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

Bill O'Rights

Although I can see the voyeuristic appeal...I was just never able to distance myself far enough away from it. I found it very tasteless and extremely low class. It's another one of those areas that everyone has to decide for him/hersef where to draw the line.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

mixedmedia

I draw the line at watching the suffering, mutilation and death of humans and other animals for entertainment. I will never understand why people find that fun or interesting -furthermore I don't even think it's in my capacity to understand.

Gucci, I'll just pretend I didn't see you say that.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Glory's Sun

For me, it's just a fact of life. I do not shy from death or find it scary. I like to watch and wonder what people would go through before something happened or what the onlookers were thinking. :shrug:

/end threadjack

Ilow

I would think that if the viewers were going to be charged with anything, it would follow more along the lines of legislation that would govern supporting "snuff films" rather than the involuntary manslaughter that some have presented.

The popularity of searches for Saddam Hussein's hanging video as well as the Daniel Pearl video certainly demonstrates a popularity in morbid content, however there seems to be a significant difference between the "Faces of Death" type of video and the actual participatory nature of this event.

While I generally do not support legislating morality, and can certainly understand some people's frustration with a depressed/suicidal person's constant threats of suicide, I find the callousness that some people have demonstrated in this thread disturbing.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

shakran

No it doesn't. Me telling you to kill yourself does not cause you to kill yourself. YOU cause you to kill yourself. You make the call. That's vastly different from real involuntary manslaughter, which involves cases such as me selling you drugs (i.e. knowingly giving you the actual tools to kill yourself with) and you overdosing on them, or me running you over with a car because I was rooting around in the back seat for a CD.

Ourcrazymodern?

So...part of the people care about others and part of them don't.
What a surprize.
I can only think of one public hanging I'd like to see...

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

EvilMoose

The usernames list of the suicide picture included aMasteratwork... That's his 2nd viewing of a suicide on cam in what? 3 years?

tenniels

I feel really bad for the whole situation is just really sad. Whoa, that was an unintentional rhyme, sweet! Anyways, I don't believe the people in the chatroom are in anyway liable in the eyes of the law. On the other hand, I think it takes a sick kind of person to sit there in a chatroom and think it's fun to egg someone on to kill themselves. I hope that whomever was goading him feels the guilt of doing so for a long time and that should be punishment enough. It was his choice, he followed through and the consequences were deadly. I had some personal experiences with feeling suicidal a long time ago but never vocalized it to anyone. It's a pretty awful place to be. I can't imagine thinking it would be funny to go along with something like that, even if you outright knew it was a joke. I had done some pretty self destructive things to myself during that time, but I realize it's not up to me to decide when I die. I think this is just another illustration of what a bunch of dumb fucks this world is inhabited with and how meaningless their lives must be to find shit like that entertainment.

__________________

abaya

Okay, what is an "insult" chat room, and what is the benefit of being in one? People just talking shit to each other non-stop, to see how witty or smart-ass they can be? Some kind of junior high locker room? WTF... just sounds totally pointless to me, but someone please enlighten me.

And also... what kind of insensitive fuck jokes about suicide, or EGGS someone on, in any context (yes, even a complete stranger on the internet)? I mean, I can see it if you've known someone for a long time and they've been waffling about it for years, etc... but a total stranger? I don't really care about legal repercussions, but even in this "insult" context, I can't believe that not a single person in that room had the consciousness of mind to think that this person might be serious.

Sometimes I hate the fucking internet and what it encourages people to do. (I am not talking about the guy who committed suicide; I am talking about the fuckers who watched him do it, and how they could possibly think that was something "cool"...)

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

QuasiMondo

The internet is full of attention whores, the kind of folks who do anything to get people to look at them. . In their eyes, egging this man on to hang himself would be no different than having some chick flash her breasts in front of the webcam. It's the wonderful world of the internet.

If you think he was egged on simply because he was on the internet, you're mistaken. In any situation where a person publicizes their attempt at suicide, there will be spectators in the crowd egging them on to jump/blow their brains out/etc., just as there will be people trying to persuade them to stop. Blaming the internet is pointless, as that would assume that if he didn't have a webcam he wouldn't have done it, which I don't believe at all.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

abaya

So, a chick flashing her boobs is on par with a guy threatening to commit suicide? I just don't think those two actions are comparable, in any form. One is nudity. The other is life or death.

I have never heard of this, except for maybe in the movies. Have you seen this happen in real life, firsthand? Can you give me a factual example of this happening? I just cannot imagine it.

And I am aware that the guy might have committed suicide anyway, regardless of the internet or webcam. That is why I said, in the last parentheses to my previous post, that I wasn't talking about the guy committing suicide... I was talking about the fucking assholes who watched him do it, and thought that this was okay, even cool or funny. That's just plain sick.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

QuasiMondo

And it's all entertainment. Think of how popular the videos of Nicholas Berg's beheading and Saddam Hussein's execution were once they hit the internet? People have a morbid fascination with the act of dying.


Personally, no. All I can go on is the firsthand account of a platoon sergeant I had who tried to talk a marine out of jumping from the top of the barracks at Camp Pendleton. He was the OOD (Officer of the Day) and was called to the barracks, along with the MP's and chaplain after the jumper was spotted by a firewatch who called it in to the Sergeant of the Guard. There was a couple of marines who were watching and one did sarcastically egg him on to jump, which resulted in quite the verbal berating from the chaplain himself.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Raleighbum

IMO - A suicide is the most selfish act and stupidest thing to do. only wimps do it. I sincerely hope the rope wasn't nicely there and he suffered a while before the passed away.

The_Jazz

Sounds like you might have cheered him on. Maybe not, but that's what it sounds like to me.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

seretogis

I feel just terrible for the tenant who will live in that apartment after him, what with the hole in the ceiling and all.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Kpax

I don't know why people hang themselves. So many things could go wrong. If you end up paralyzed, you will have to depend on the care of other people, and they certainly wouldn't help you end your life.

As well, there are figures that suggest that most people who commit suicide where also heavy drinkers, and that contributed- their "addiction" I mean... but I beg to differ.

The drinking associated with most wreckless lives was their final means or effort to soothe the pain. They weren't suicidal because their drinking, but drinking because they were suicidal. Obviously it didn't work, but it was an effort to choose life over death.

Of course, sometimes it is true that addiction is the culprit, but not all the time as people would like to believe. A study found that like 30% of people who ended their life also were alcoholics, but this is only because they tried it to see if it would make things less painful. It itself wasn't their bane of existence- not in every case.

Anyway I've heard of this fad of posting your own death, or threatening to, but always wondered how someone would do it. For youtube.com you have to click 'finish,' then upload it, but I suppose in a live chatroom (never visited one) it would be different, real-time.

It was pretty wimpy for the Virginia Tech guy to do it, before having to face the SWAT team or whatnot...

...but for others who end their life, such as Budd Dwyer, it takes courage and guts. I mean, I've loaded my gun, and unloaded it, then loaded it again during tough times, and I just couldn't do it, and so ended up having to deal with a worse pain the next day, that of the situation that made me think about death in the first place. I certainly don't feel like less of a coward for being unable to do it. People who commit suicide want to make a statement about a matter, a loud and clear statement, and it is their last attempt to communicate a message of pain to people who have so far refused to listen. (Of course, I'm not condoning or encouraging the concept.)

crittercrafter

The chatroom was an insult chat room which means you simply insult people not ege them on to kill them self this is not an insult. That would be like watching a young person chug-a-lug beer or alcohol and you edged them on then they died from alcohol poison.