SirLance

So, after agonizing about it for months, I wrote a letter to my bishop (I was Roman Catholic). In my letter, I declared what is called a "Defection by Formal Act" in which I formally left the Roman Catholic Church.

I was raised Catholic, but I can't continue as a Catholic without being a serious heretic. When I finally filed for divorce from my first wife, it was because I was the only one trying, and it was clear to me she simply wasn't interested in saving our marriage.

That's where I am with the Church. For reasons I am not comfortable disclosing, it is clear to me that I am the only one in our "relationship" who is making an effort. And, the fact is, for me to sit there and pretend to believe in all of the dogma and ritual would be heresy.

I think I'd be wrong to stay. So why do I feel wrong to leave?

This is a hard decision. I believe in God, and in Jesus, with all my heart. But I have no faith in the Catholic Church.

Part of me wants to go back. I am so torn. Yes, I was raised Catholic, and that's part of it. Even when something is wrong, if it's part of your life long enough it's hard to let go.

Any advice on letting go? Or, should I seriously rethink this?

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analog

To qualify the following remarks, I was raised and still am a Catholic.

You don't have to be Catholic to believe in God and Jesus.

If you simply can't find reason to change the things that make you "a heretic", you could always resign yourself to the fact that you are a Catholic who sins. Believe me, there are a shit-ton of sinning Catholics who neither care about, or even recognize their sins.

Go with your heart, man. I feel that you shouldn't abandon your faith because you believe you aren't being a "good enough" Catholic. Go talk to a priest, get some perspective. There is something to be said for a person who recognizes they don't follow their religion "perfectly" and can't remedy that, but feel bad about it. While that's obviously not the perfect scenario, I don't know that a priest will tell you to go to hell (figuratively and literally) because you have differences in dogmatic opinion, even though you truly love God. I recommend talking to a priest, as your next step before self-excommunication.

Faith in anything just wouldn't be the same if it didn't get tested every now and then, would it?

SirLance

If it were merely dogma and ritual, I could probably stay. This state of affairs is very upsetting to my wife.

The issue is I was harmed at the hands of the church, and they refuse help. Yet, they post bond for the one who harmed me. Yes, it was sexual abuse. What the hell. Might as well come clean.

The church is the leader in social justice. If I were hungry, they'd feed me. If I were homeless, they'd find me shelter. Why do I have to sue them to get them to pay for my therapy? Where's MY social justice?

They talk a good game, but they aren't going to change. The situation that allowed this was perpetuated by the church hierarchy. Hell, I complained because of the prayer intentions for an accused priest. I didn't mind that, but let's pray for the victims, too. In spite of all my requests, was there change? No, the pastor said "I don't believe all these accusations."

So, this is half dogma, and half rejection. The church has rejected me, so I reject the church.

But I don't mind telling you, I am very tense and anxious about this. I've made my decsion, and I think I have to stick with it.

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JustJess

I think you did the right thing. This is coming from a non-religious person. I have spiritual feelings (boy would my husband be surprised to hear that) but I do not subscribe in any way to organized religions for these very reasons.

1. You were harmed and the organization refuses to right it, or recognize it. No need to be part of such an organization.

2. Your faith and love for God and Jesus are separate, and rightly so. They didn't harm you, only flawed humans who love them harmed you. So if you feel the practices and dogma and rituals do not accurately represent your faith in God etc., there is no reason to "go through the motions". That would be a lie to yourself and others, and you are obviously above that.

3. I wish to re-emphasize this point: you can be a good Christian even if you don't wish to be a good Catholic. They do not have to be the same. Follow your heart, it is the only one who knows.

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Val_1

You should find the church that fits your beliefs. Too many people don't believe in the dogmas of the church they attend yet continue to go. I don't understand this.

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Cynthetiq

Your relationship is with God and the Trinity (or higher power whatever that may be.) The church was just being an intermediary.

I left the Catholic church decades ago, I never bothered with a formal act of defection. I still attend Mass from time to time as it's easier to just go for the 1 hour and meditate instead of arguing with my mother for 3.

I enter into synagogues, mosques, and other houses of worship and as I see them as conduits to the God my understanding.

Forgive yourself for this act, erase the emotional debt since it's not yours to carry.

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Willravel

Faith is a simple thing. Religion is a tricky thing. I'd strongly suggest, as a former of both, to not confuse the two. The church is always fallible as it is run by people in power. Faith is only as fallible as you allow it to be in your own mind. That’s the freedom of faith, and the restriction of religion.

If it means anything, I certianly understand your prediciment and don't blame you one bit. It's clear that you made a real honest effort, but you cannot see a succesful outcome becauw the other 50% of this isn't working at all.

Gilda

I left the church when I was in my late teens for somewhat related reasons. There was no formal severing of ties; I just stopped going and found a church that did meet my needs.

If the Catholic Church isn't meeting your spiritual needs, find a church that does. It really is that simple.

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SirLance

Thank you JJ, you have expressed succinctly one of the driving forces for my act. I couldn't find the words, only the feeling.


Nor do I. However, I don't think there's a church for me. I was raised Catholic, and I'm not really interested in finding another church, I just can't be part of the Catholic Church anymore.

I think you're right. This is what I have to do. I don't want to do what I am doing out of hubris. I want to do it because it is what I think is best for me, and for the Church. Quite frankly, if all the people in my position did what I did, in addition to just not attending any more, they might get the message.

Combine this with JJ's remarks, and you have 100% of my issue. I have tried, will. That's the disconcerting part. They make the right noises, but when it comes down to action, there just isn't anything meaningful. Pray for the accused priest? Fine, and they should. Pray for the victims too. I shouldn't have to wage a 6 month campaign to get a prayer intention for the victims.

Oh, Gilda, m'love, would that it were. I'm really not interested in another church, but being Catholic is so deeply ingrained in me, I am having a hard time letting go.

I am so thankful I posted this. I am grateful for all the support and help I get from all you good folks. Please keep the commentary coming. It really is helping me. Sometimes we better understand when we see through another's eyes...

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Brewmaniac

Sirlace, I'm sorry for getting to this so late, you have been advised well and I'm glad to see you blame the Catholic Church and not your faith. There's a huge difference, hold onto your faith even tighter than ever before. In time you may find a church you can Trust, don't completely shut the door.

Man I feel for you, I will pray for ya, buddy!

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Ourcrazymodern?

Defecation is more natural and more useful.
Defection depends on your beliefs.
Why is lie in the middle of that word?

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Ch'i

You do not need a church, mosque, temple, cathedral, or anything of the sort to practice your faith.

Carno

I went to a Catholic Mass once. I didn't see God in any of the inane rituals that were done. I would rather pull off my fingernails with a pair of pliers than go back to another Mass. Also, where in the Bible does it ever mention a Pope?

Like others have said, believing in God is more about you and God than it is the church. Do you need a church to read the Bible? Do you need the church to be a good person? I suggest that you visit different churches in your area and see which one fits you best. Try a nondenominational Christian church, you might like it a lot.

Baron Opal

I know many, many Catholics who became disillusioned with the Catholic church, for whatever reason, and ended up attending Episcopalian services. They are close enough to be comfortably familiar and yet don't have the weight of dogma and control that the Catholic church seems to need.

I am an Episcopalian by osmosis. I had a fairly agnostic upbringing and married a disillusioned Catholic that found a home in the Episcopalian church.

Also, let me join the chorus in saying that your relationship with God is personal. Being with a church is a source for community (hopefully), and sometimes help and resources (potentially) but ultimately the church is just a facilitator to introduce you to God.

Just noticed this:

Because the church has been a home for you for a long time. And, even though you feel betrayed you have gained much comfort and fellowship from it in the past. Just a guess.

Chimera

Just remember, what you have done does not make you a lesser man in the eyes of those that matter (God, or whatever).....but only in the eyes of a man with a funny hat. You are far from alone in your dissatisfaction in this regard, as is obvious from the posts in this thread, And go ahead and add my own "Defection" to the list.
You have not abandoned God.....but the Church has abandoned you.

blahblah454

Pretty much what everyone else has said. The Church is not God, its a place to gather to pray and such. You can pray and live out a good God filled life anywhere and anytime. I am a Catholic and don't see the need or purpose to a lot of what they do but I do enjoy going to mass to listen to the homely as it is filled with good advice and life lessons a lot of the time. To me the strongest point of following God is to be a good person, you don't need to attend anything or pray a certain way to be a good person, do it in your own way.

shakran

none of us can tell you if what you did was right or wrong. Ask yourself the question. You already know the answer.

snowy

I'll second the Episcopalian church recommendation. Baron's description is very accurate. I'm a Lutheran turned Episcopalian. Honestly, I've never been to a more welcoming church.

Additionally, I'll echo what everyone else has already pointed out. You don't need church as a go-between. You can worship God any time, anywhere, any place, and feed your soul. But I understand that it's nice to go somewhere where other people of like mind exist, and where there is a ritual to follow that comforts you.

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SirLance

Maybe I'll look into the Episcopalian option. I'm comfortable with the fact that my relationship with God is independent of the church. But, as Baron Opal correctly pointed out, I was there for a long time.

I do want to be in a community of like minded, in that we believe in God and Jesus. It's the dogma, and the attitude towards those the church has injured that have driven me away.

I do appreciate all the support I've gotten. When I posted this, I was really very uncomfortable with my decision. Of course, I've stuck with it because I understand the doing the right thing often results in discomfort.

You TFP'ers have been very helpful. Brew, man, I appreciate your prayers and good thougths, please keep 'em coming. That shit works!

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Lady Sage

You need to be true to yourself. Research until you find a religion/path that is right for you. Do not let others lead you into something that doesnt make sense to you. Best of luck.

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Ourcrazymodern?

As a "confirmed" lutheran I probably really don't get it.
I apologize for my earlier & probably very rude post....
Having rejected formalized religion long ago and settled for god as I feel it, I'm just hoping the infinite grace that the lutherans spoke of is within it.
Religion can be haunting! As LS said, best of luck!

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SirLance

I took it as a joke, and didn't take it personally, nevertheless, apology accepted!

Less haunting today than yesterday, as time passes, I continue to realize that I have made the right decision for me.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

Ourcrazymodern?

More power to you, Sir Lance.

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MSD

You've spent decades there and their main goal is to keep you there. Weekly indoctrination, even when you had been a willing participant, is not an easy thing to reverse.

When I left the Catholic church (before I became an Atheist,) I read the Gnostic gospels and found Gospel of Thomas reassuring in my decision. Here are a few select passages that emphasize the message and meaning of Christ's word. Verse 77 really cemented the idea in my mind that Jesus never intended for a church to provide anything more than moral guidance. He wanted people to follow his message rather than an institution.

6. His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"
Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed.

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

82. Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the (Father's) kingdom."


You have come to the conclusion that what you have been taught about the church is wrong, and what you have to do to find peace is to learn as much as you can from as many sources as you can find, and decide what you honestly believe, not what someone else tells you to believe.

thingstodo

Just let go of the past. Guilt - which I believe is one element of catholisism (I don't intend to trivialize other people's beliefs so please don't anyone take that personal) - is the thing that is holding you back from blazing your trail into the future. Be true to yourself. Religion is organized while beliefs are individual.

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grumpyolddude

As a fellow disillusioned Catholic, I admire the manner in which you've tackled this deeply emotional issue, SirLance. I have merely absented myself from the church for the past 35 years, except for the times I've kept my mother company at mass (The toughest part for me has been not partaking in the ritual of Communion. I believe that it bothers some people, but I feel that I'd be a hypocrite if I did.)

I hope that you find your peace. The one(s) who hurt you are the villians, and those who protect them are doubly guilty. We must question the true agenda of any organisation that acts the way the Catholic church has on this issue.

SirLance

Well, grumpy, I think that there are a lot of "ex" Catholics who have left for reasons of dogma & ritual, such as marriage in the preisthood, or because they are disgusted about the sex abuse scandal. Most of those are probably still considered members by the Church, and probably don't care.

For the non-Catholics out there, you should probably understand that there aren't formal membership roles that are kept in some central repository. All records are kept at the parish level in something called the baptismal register. This is where all the sacraments a Catholic has taken are recorded. So, there's a record of my baptism, my confirmation, my marriage, and now, my “defection ab Ecclesia catholica actu formali.”

My point is that other than the Bishop I wrote, and the administrator whom he had send a letter to my parish of baptism to make said entry, no one really knows I left. No report is going to go back to anyone saying, "Oh, shit, we lost one."

Nobody in Rome can punch a button and find out if anyone besides me has even done this. I didn't do this for them, I did it for me. I wanted this to be formal, because I needed that formality, and not because they require it.

Again, I really appreciate all the support I've gotten from my fellow TFP'ers. I wish my wife were handling this as well as you guys are...

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JustJess

Perhaps you could bring up the verses that MSD mentioned. I have never before read them, yet they are exactly what I always thought was the point... maybe that would help your wife understand?

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

SirLance

I think this is more about "what will you do if we have children? Will you not attend baptisms?" than it is about understanding my reasons. I just don't know how to address that.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

spindles

I think you should cross these bridges when they come.

A bit of background:
I was raised a catholic but am now an agnostic. My wife is a practicing Anglican. We are a bit different in that she knew my religious persuasion before we married.

She takes our boys to church, but I rarely attend - when I do, I don't take part in any of the service (except the singing - I don't see any harm in me singing, and I'm yet to be struck by lightning ). We haven't had the boys christened, because I don't really want it, but if my wife was really set on the idea I (again) don't see any real harm (she sees that my taking part in such a ceremony would be hypocritical, but I'm willing to be a hypocrite if she really pushed it). The protestant religions tend to be a bit more open in this way in that we could have a "naming" ceremony without a formal christening, if we want to, but there is no pressure from anyone in the church family to do anything.

We have been fairly open that I don't believe in god (it is well known to people in the congregation) and there certainly hasn't been any repercussions for me (apart from a few well meaning attempts at conversion).

Anyway - you need to decide whether the ritual you would have to take part in is something you can live with doing. In essence christening is a ritual to "add" the child to god's family - this in itself shouldn't be too abhorrent to you and as time passes you might feel less worried about it. Also, sometimes it is worth doing something you don't want to do to keep your significant other happy. If you are going to raise your children as Christians, then the small ritual shouldn't be too concerning. You could think of it as bending your principles rather than breaking them completely.

However, if you look at other churches, you might end up with you and your wife practicing elsewhere and this whole question becomes moot, doesn't it?

edit: the poll seems pretty conclusive, doesn't it?

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kaptain_kwanza

that isnt very nice...but the point is, when dealing with catholics, you must realize that God doesnt exist. God is a phantom force created by the jewish kings to scare the people into obeying their laws. sooo, you did the right thing sir.

MSD

I've publicized my religious views, so you know where I stand on this. I have no problem with attending religious ceremonies, even though I typically stand, sit, and sing when we're supposed to and let my eyes gloss over while my mind wanders for most of it.

As for children, it's easier for me than for you; I will never have children with someone who insists on raising them religious. For your situation, it would be an insult to you if your wife wanted to raise the children in the church. You said it all in your second post: a priest abused you, they deny that it happened, they defend him in court. Raising a child in that environment is no better than raising your son to follow in your footsteps and pushing him to take a job in a business run by a crime syndicate. You have every right to raise him spiritually and to worship in his own way, letting him know why you left thr church when he's old enough to understand, but you need to let your wife know that to go back without the church having radically changed its beliefs and actions on this issue is simply giving up and condoning what they do.

SirLance

That's a stand I couldn't see myself taking with my wife. There are plenty of good people there. I will not go back, but I will not dictate anyone else's religious affiliation, even my wife's. And if it means that much to her that the children be raised Catholic, that's fine with me, but the will be raised free-thinking, with the skills to criticize and question, and they will be allowed to make their own choice, as I was.

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Ourcrazymodern?

I "not attended" a baptism once. (There's been nothing but trouble since then Address it however you must. I went and painted the father-in-law's fence when the eldest got baptized, but only because I happened to be there at the time. Idiot noise on my part, no doubt.

The boys were not baptized... nor the other thing. Getting your seed back may still be important...

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SirLance

Just a side note... in spite of formally defecting, I guess I'm still on the list for fundraising! Got a letter requesting a donation to a diocesan charitable fund!

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Ourcrazymodern?

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SirLance

An update.... there has been a child, and there will be a baptism, but I will not attend. I actually talked with the deacon about it and he said that by being there I am basically saying that I won't interfere in his religious education. I told him I most certainly would interfere. I think the RCC has strayed so far from what Jesus charged all Christians with, that I intend to make sure the boy knows my opinion, and is encouraged to form his own.

My wife, of all people, is just fine with my position. She is only concerned about the questions that will be asked about my absence.

My response to that is, "It's really none of their business, but if they ask, the answer is I left the church for my own reasons."

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

MSD

You're doing the right thing, and your wife is and exceptional person if she is that understanding.

roachboy

leaving catholicism...i know about this too. your situation sounds much like that of my mother, who was raised very conservative french/rosewater catholic and who decided (or was told--it's hard to say) when she and my father divorced that she was excommunicated. while i understood the "logic" of such a position, having to do with some notion of "god's will" and church rules as a reflection of that will, a situation that was always bizarre but went into the surreal in the 1860s when the pope declared himself "infallible on spiritual matters" which apparently extended to all rules...while i understood the "logic" i never understood the logic, if you know what i mean.

i'm sure i don't need to tell you about the myriad problems that have set the us catholic church against rome, particularly against the most recent sequence of utterly reactionary popes (j-p 2 and ratzinger) over the question of the us church being too permissive amongst the laity and not servile enough to rome. fact is that the situation of the catholic church has been changing, and profoundly, in the united states since after world war 2--it was knit into a way of being in a neighborhood, particularly in cities, what was wiped out by cars, by a different type of social mobility, etc. "permissiveness" meant adapting to changing circumstances, but on an ad hoc basis. the alternative was irrelevance. the vatican never quite seemed to get this basic fact.

whether you happened to be in a more "permissive" or conservative parish was chance-driven, and what resulted from that chance probably quite painful, if you were brought up catholic and believed, just in the way any protestant does, that the particular rituals that you were used to were the way to exercise your faith.

i know far more people who've left the church than who've stayed, and this for a huge array of reasons ranging from the silencing of liberation theology to positions on divorce and/or birth control and/or homosexuality that come out of some retro-nightmare to scandals involving priests to the arrogance of rome to matters of simple and direct loss of faith or interest in the machinery that for some at least generate it. and folk left in as many ways as they are folk. they're all the same in the end: you do what you feel you need to do.

for what it's worth, my relation to catholicism is mostly this: i like going to cathederals and once in a great while showing up for mass because i like the theater of it. but i don't believe any of it. i haven't believed any of it for a very long time. i find the structure of belief interesting but mostly as a logical or ideological problem. apart from the pretty clothes and ritual---and apart from occaisonal anger at this or that reactionary outburst from the vatican---it means nothing to me.

there are certain ritual points though that can be interesting---baptism is one of them---or not.
others, like funerals, particularly for a loved one, can be comforting.
in the end, i think people take from the experience what they need and leave everything else behind, one way or another.

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sapiens

Your formal act of defection (which I didn't notice before) sounds like an honorable position. Most Catholics that I know who are no longer active just "lapsed", chose to faded away, rather than formally defect. I had great experiences while in the church, particularly in high school (a Jesuit school), but I have such fundamental disagreements with the faith now that I'm no longer active. (I have "faded away").

Your position regarding your child's baptism sounds reasonable as well. Your wife's still active in the Church? Were you surprised by your wife's reaction? And your reaction to your child's baptism? I'm not sure how I would feel about my kids being baptized.

By the way, congratulations on the birth of your child! I don't know if you mentioned in any previous posts or not.