rockogre

It is my most fervent hope that if hell exists, there also exists a special place in hell for people like this guy.

I honestly believe the if justice were to be done, the father would be locked in the same car, in the same situation until he died.

At least some of the utter scum that walk our planet might occasionally think of someone other than themselves if punishment fit the crime.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

butthead

I only wish this were true so you could see the folly of your reasoning.

Redirect

if i was the judge i would sentence that person for a 8 hour stay in a car in the middle of a parking lot on a day when the temperature reaches at least 98 degrees. if he tries getting out shoot him.

i thought loving your child and caring for it began with COMMON SENSE. maybe i'm wrong since i'm not a parent yet.

butthead

Maybe you should reread the thread. Particularly the posts about forgetfulness and stress.

Now what say you?

rockogre

Well since I don't you will need to elaborate.

As for

"Maybe you should reread the thread. Particularly the posts about forgetfulness and stress."

Neither of these is an excuse or a mitigating circumstance. If the safety of your child is not your number one priority and the main thought in your head, then you certainly don't need children.

Accidental and unintentional my ass. A mere fuckup? On what planet?

Perhaps you apologists would take a few moments to imagine the end of this poor little humans life as it was literally BAKED ALIVE because it's parent had more important things on his mind.

Trapped in the heat, no escape, no ability to save yourself, crying in your suffering yet no one comes. Finally, exhaustion as death brings mercy to the poor, tortured little body.

If the father were to be burnt alive at sunrise I would gladly light the match.

Responability for a child means exactly that. Responsability.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

denim

Actual people have other thoughts in their minds at times. You can't always be thinking about your kid. Granted, I'm not a parent either, but as such I think I know better than to think I know better than someone who is. You might want to consider that.

rockogre

I agree that you have other thoughts in your head, but having a child is a special blessing. Small children must stay in your foremost thoughts when in your care.

I can never remember having one of mine with me and not seeing to their every need no matter what else was going on. Only when with their mother or other trusted caretaker did I worry about other things.

The couple of minutes it takes to get them in and out of a carseat always drove me nuts but I did it anyway. Toting one around isn't all that big of a deal either.

When your work becomes more important than your child you have a problem that you need to deal with soonest.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

Prophecy

Rockogre, I see where your coming from and once you have children, they should be foremost in your thoughts. However, burning this guy alive seems to be on the extreme end. Granted I'd never leave my child, but I still don't think that setting him on fire is going to solve much. He needs to be punished, but I'd rather have him live and feel that guilt and remorse for his crime for the rest of his life than give him an easy out by death. Just think about the torment he'll go through every time he sees another child.

And for those who think that just living with the memories of his act is all that needs to be done, well I disagree. He did kill his child though be it through neglect. He should have to be punished. Though I don't agree with imprisonment either, save that for real criminals.

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

denim

I can't really respond to this, not being a parent. I don't really know what it's like.

rockogre

Point taken, your're right about burning someone alive. I like to think that I am not really that evil. I just keep imagining what it must have been like for the child.

Hurting children in any manner just pushes my buttons. And hurting one out of stupidity or arrogance just pushes them harder. I won't even watch movies where children are hurt or killed.

To me punishment is also about deterence. If the punishment is severe enough others may think more before acting. Occasionally even stupidity requires punishment. Not lack of knowledge, just not using that knowledge.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

butthead

I think it's pretty ridiculous to assume one "doesn't need" children simply because they are not constantly the main thought at all times. If you have kids and this is how it is for you, I'd say you're probably either lying to fit your argument, or you're the minority.

Too bad I don't have divine insight. Maybe you can explain how this is not accidental or unintentional. Nobody said anything about a "mere" fuck up, and it's getting on my nerves to see that people can be so thickheaded. Disappointing.

And I think you vengeance-thirtsy numbskulls should be realistic for once in this thread. THERE ARE SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

OH MY GOD THAT IS JUST HORRIBLE. Way to charge your argument with emotion rather ACTUALLY ADDRESSING IT DIRECTLY WITH LOGIC!!! Instead of bringing up the same stupid fucking points over and over again, why don't you prove to us that this was no accident. Go ahead, prove your argument.

I wouldn't. What the fuck is wrong with you that you would WANT to set someone on fire like that for an accident they caused that will most likely leave them scarred for life?

And apparently the parent wasn't totally on the ball at all times and now the child is dead. What is your point?

It's a good thing I live my life by your perfectionistic display. If you fucked up I bet you would pleading for mercy.

A high-minded civilization does not brutally and without mercy torture and kill its own for accidents.

Wonderful for you. Too bad everyone is not as perfect as you, then we'd never read about kids being accidentally left behind in locked cars or any of those "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING" type stories in the media, right?

I agree with this, but nothing in this thread seems worth setting some one fucking FIRE.

Now prove to me that this was an intentional act. Prove your argument.

butthead

Does it push your buttons so much that you can't come up with a solid argument?

You may not be "evil" (hahaha, yeah right, "evil", here's your cape, you super villain), but you seem to openly encourage sadistic behavior. Something about sadistic tendencies just "pushes my buttons", especially when the person like to portray an image of someone who cares.

Oh, you mean like SETTING PEOPLE ON FIRE FOR MISTAKES BECAUSE THEY HAVE A PERSONAL THING AGAINST HARMING CHILDREN?!

You're a fool if you expect everyone to be sharp as a nail at all times.

Haha, right on Mister Hussein! But seriously, I don't think punishment is necessary for others to get the message to be extra sure to not leave your kids in locked cars, I think the news story does that on its own.

spectre

I'm going to ask that everyone take a step back, then take a deep breath, and calm down. Relax. This story angers me too, but I don't want to have to lock this thread.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

denim

He probably does care, but he may have been responding in the first flare of anger after reading of the event. It happens.

BBtB

Damnit spectre you stole the opening to my reply. Oh well. I will say I do concur with that though. Neither killing this man NOR EACH OTHER will bring the child back. Lets keep that in mind.

Right. And where will that get us? I am sure we allready have a family in distress right now. Lets think of a scenario real quick. Now the article didn't mention most of this per se but none of it is that rare either so it might be true. Lets assume he is the main breadwinner of the home. His wife either does not have a job or DOES have a job that makes half or less what he makes. Lets also assume he has two more kids. He also has a mother. And a brother. Okay so right now we have a Mother,Grandmother,Uncle and siblings of the child all allready in distress over the lose of the young one. Now are we so cavalier to add to their distress? Should we now go in and kill (or even just remove to prison or some other distant place) the main money maker of this family? Not to mention everyone else who will be hurt just be his lack of presences.

Right. And that is my next point. He SHOULD be punished. How exactly? I am not sure. That all depends on a number of things not mentioned in this article that neither I or any of us can really comment on because we just don't have all the facts. But making the punishment fit the crime does not mearly mean doing the crime onto the perpetrator. If someone robs a bank we don't in turn rob them and call it even. I think he probably needs counseling and if he DOES have other children then he defintly needs some classes on parenting. Maybe some stress mangament classes. Of course this is all conjecture. As I allready said we don't KNOW he did this because of stress. That is just a guess that some people have presented to help explain it.

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

rockogre

Once again you have proven your worth as a moderator. I have already stepped back. This thread will have no winners, it's not a contest. I stand down.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

butthead

No, it's definitely not a contest, but I would like to have it explained how this was no accident. Now do I have any takers?

raeanna74

I agree this was an accident in my opinion. It was mentioned that the man changed his normal daily routine. Also that it was the last day of classes. Those two things by themselves send up flags that the guy was tired and had MUCH to plan. Last day of classes means, final report cards to be figured up, class party to plan or pull off, tying up all the loose ends. It would be impossible for even me to keep thinking the whole way to school "I have to remember to take my child out of the car." He had no intention of leaving the child there. When it isn't intended it is an accident. He did nothing else that we know of to cause him to be out of it either. For example there was no mention of him drinking alcohol or drugs. If people who cause drunk driving accidents are set free because it was "just an accident" and they knew they were taking a risk to turn their car on the road with alcohol in their system then this man can be "forgiven" as this was just as much an accident. I'm not saying that I would forgive a drunk driver. My dad has a large metal plate in his legs as a result of a drunk driver. I'm just saying that we have no right to judge this man any harsher than we would a drunk driver or someone who does something they know is risky in the first place and ends up hurting or killing someone. JMHO

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

BentNotTwisted

So, we have a lot of people interested in this post. Let's come up with some createive ideas on how this guy should be justly punished.

I say he gets put on probation for a very long time and is required to find some way to stop this from happening to anyone else. He should come up with a 'Child Detector' or some such thing. Hell, if it happened to me I'd do it whether I was required by a court decision or not.

__________________
IS THAT IT ???!!!
Do you even know what 'it' is?

When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

joe100

It is all about how the person treats a child.

In this case the child could have been a sack of potatoes. Throw the bag in the back and forget about it.

When I travel with kids I talk to them and I put them (when I can) within my sight so we can communicate.

So when this happens. I always think. "There is another person who doesn't get the concept of how helpless a child is and how we need to include them in ours lives.

At that time he was so intend of his coffee that he forgot about the most preciouse cargo that he could ever transport.

If they don't think that, then they shouldn't be responsible for kids."

Thats all.

seretogis

Even though I am sure that it was an accident, this guy should not get away with no consequence to his actions. Ending a human life, especially a child's, is very serious indeed and there should be assurances that he will never make a fatal mistake like that happens again with his other children or a student of his.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Mango

Man that is harsh. I could not imagine how shitty the dad must feel. It is easier than you might think to forget about your kids. I have gone to the daycare and picked up my youngest kid then went to the daycare wher the older two were. I put the youngest one down and she went off playing. I got the older ones all ready and bundled up (middle of winter) and didn't realize I was missing one until I was loading them all into thier car seats. I felt bad eventhough I remembered in the parking lot.
The guy fucked up and fucked up big. He should not go unpunnished but at the same time I do not think he should end up in prison alongside rapists and murderers.

denim

I just think it should be understood IFF this WAS an accident, and I think we all agree, based on the info we have, that it was, that part of the punishment is automatic. He let his child die horribly. He's got to live with that. He's got to bury that child! Parents: what does that say to you?

butthead

Why especially a child? It's not like they've even lived and babies are made all the time. I see the killing of an adult to be of higher consequence seeing as how you lose out on all that was invested in the persons life.

weedline

Put him in a car in a car at 140 for 4 hours with no water.
And fuck him!
HE IS AN ASSHOLE AND SHOULD DIE A PAINFUL DEATH.
If he has not killed him self yet.

weedline

My motto is women and children first.
All the rest is Bull shit.

titsmurf

Don't you see that by wanting to kill this man, you have the intention of doing exactly that which you accuse him of. It's wrong.

This man will not, ever, make that mistake again. He also did not do it on purpose. If anything, let's have some sympathy for him because this - and I do think it could happen to anyone in an extreme situation - is not something you want to have happen to your worst enemy.

YourNeverThere

ya i hate seeing dogs and other living things in locked hot vans and cars, ive always wanted to do what the mom does on Malcome in the Middle when she smashes the window to let the dog out

__________________
The Above post is a direct quote from Shakespeare

4thTimeLucky

I do not think he should be punished.
I do not think the police would bring charges in this case.
I do not think a judge would ever give a sentence in this case.

I do agree with butthead and understand his frustration.
I do not agree with rockogre or weedline who show a deliberate and conscious disregard for the sanctity of life, unlike the father who was thoughtless and negligent - not something I encourage or take lightly, but not something as blameworthy as a deliberate desire to inflict a painful death upon another.

If however you do insist on punishing this father (though I have stated on page 1 why I think punishment is inapprpriate) then I can make some recommendations:

- A lengthy period of community service teaching about the dangers of cars in hot weather to other parents and pet owners.
- Participation in public safety broadcast to remind people of the danger of hot cars.
- A community service period that uses his skills as a teacher to help children in the community.

No material prison or physical punishment will ever match the mental anguish, despair and loss that this father will feel for the rest of his life. He was a teacher. He had devoted his life to caring for children. He must now live with the fact that his negligence led to the death of his own.

__________________
I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless!

raeanna74

Well stated 4thTimeLucky.

I am a teacher and parent and cannot imagine how terrible it would be to experience that sort of thing. We all screw up and so many of us just get plain lucky and don't end up with the dire consequences that this man did.
Let it be a lesson to us how easily it can be to forget about someone else and think only about ourselves.
I've seen enough loser parents to know that this man just screwed up. I can't even compare what this man did unintentionally with what another dad that I know of did to his kids intentionally allowing one to starve to death while the other's watched.

This man will suffer more than I would wish on any parent.

Do you have kids Weedline? If not I don't think you understand at all what you are saying.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

butthead

Well, it happened. Now you prove that it was intentional, if you believe murder is the MINIMUM he should face. Will you be able to contribute an argument addressing and disputing the information supporting that it was an accident, and prove that this was intentional?

What does this mean? Are you hounding for blood too? What determines what is just in this case? How can you be sure this isn't cruel and sadistic? Think about it, he left his child in the car because he forgot. Now you people are calling for further anguish upon a man who just accidentally killed his own child, and its seems you would take joy in doing this.

This looks to be the same emotional reaction obscuring everything else.

I agree more with the parents and caretakers in this thread that are open to being honest.

It's disappointing when the first reaction would be to send him to prison or worse, rather than counseling (especially with the intention to "rehabilitate" him, no less).

4thTimeLucky

The options boobman69 are:

1) He forgot his kid was in the car (for example: He was in a rush at the end of term and changed his usual routine. He parked his car, grabbed his bag from the seat next to him and opened the door. He hops out of the car and swings the door closed behind him. He walks a few steps, swivels his body and presses his key fob - the kid is small and obsured by the baby-seat, the car bodywork and the glare of the sun. He swivels back and jogs into school. Then there is a class register to take, a class to teach ppaperwork to fill in, report cards to write...... )

2) He deliberately left his kid in the car for eight hours without food or water knowing full well that the car was getting hotter with every minute that passed.

One scenario makes him negligent, the other a cold blooded killer of his own child.
Most of those posting here simply think he was forgetful and negligent.

Please bear in mind, if you forget something it is forgotten - no matter how valuable it is. This man simply never thought his Kid was in the car when he left it. And if you don't think your kid is in there when you leave, your not ever going to think they might be in there till you return to your car, especially if you are very busy.

__________________
I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless!

butthead

Oh, the tried and true attempt at disqualification, the trademark for a lack of an actual argument. You'd think people would stop trying that shit on me and actually debate after so many failures.

Would you really cruelly punish this man simply because you have a personal bias against these situations? It seems your frustrations are misguided. What if I were to say, "quote me all you want, but any person with black skin makes me sick." It's an exteme analogy, but it fits very closely to what I see here. It seems to be based on nothing concrete at all and merely on personal intolerance. Your personal intolerance for an individual should not enter the equation when deciding what is "just". And second, it defeats logical debate.

So what the hell is your point? That this was intentional? PROVE IT!!! The only thing you are using is the "I WOULDN'T FORGET THAT" argument, which we've all heard and which we've all seen is not true for every parent.

It seems so many people just want to say "HEY, I WOULDN'T DO THAT, THERFORE IT WAS INTENTIONAL" without actually backing up their argument with FACTS or even addressing the counter-arguments on their own grounds!

We addressed this point in the past, for a reminder, see 4thTimeLucky's first option in above post.

This thread is littered with emotionally charged drivel. If you want to express your grief or feelings for this, fine, but don't try to make it your argument because it will only be detrimental to logical debate.

Second, what role does the child's ordeal have in the treatment of the father? If you refuse to construct a logical argument, at least answer this. What does "the child was left baking in the hot sun, blah blah blah, gasping and crying for help, blah blah" have to do with determining what happens to the man? It wasn't intentional. It will probably haunt the guy for a long time. What good with punishment do? Explain that. What end are we working toward here? A world where special circumstances are ignored and severe mistakes are met with cruelty in the name of determent? How much more will cruelty deter people over reading about the excrutiating death of a child and at what price?

It was an accident. It wasn't spilled milk, no one is saying that. But I think punishing this man will just add to the tragedy. Justify prison time, torture, death, or other punishment over counseling. The guy went through some heavy shit and if we're going to reach out I think it should be with open arms.

Explain your views this time, please.

butthead

Yes, attack those who can actually control their emotions and present an argument as if they were the faulty ones. Classic.

Which to me seems like an accident, but if you think it's homocide feel free to explain it.

Oh, excellent point. Maybe you should call the day care and ask their policy on calling parents. You never know when your deliquent baby might choose to play hooky and go "smoke the pot" at the local hang out. This doesn't seem like a point at all because you're basing the "point" entirely on an assumption (a poor one at that), which I see you've done in your following points as well. When you attempt to prove murder, you typically need something more substantial than assumtions and "why didn't he...?" questions.

Well, b00bman69, this is kind of the whole damn point. YES, WE ARE SUGGESTING HE DID FORGET HIS SON! Go back and read the posts that address this supporting the accident theory, now address the theory.

Maybe you are having a hard time finding him innocent because you already decided his guilt before considering the case or the arguments.

Once again, this is a point based entirely on a chance encounter, a poor assumption.

Well to my count, the things you say don't add up add up as two chance assumptions (assumptions that most likely have been verified by police investigators) and something we're trying to decide.

Pretend you are deciding the fate of this man. Try to come up with something more concrete. Using facts, prove to us beyond a reasonable doubt that this was murder.

Let us not forget the other parents mentioned in the story that left their dying babies in cars and were not charged. It would seem that there are other realistic possibilities beyond murder in cases like these.

Prophecy

Well on this thought anyway, all and I mean all of the daycare centers in my area will call you if your child is not present, unless you(the parent) before hand told the establishment your child wouldn't be present that day.

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

butthead

Okay. So what about this? How do you want to interpret this? The guy called the daycare center and told them the kid would be with him so they wouldn't call and it wouldn't looks "suspicious"? I think that would be found out very quickly.

Here is another report from http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_ho.../21484410.html

Hmm, maybe something more should be done to send a message not to leave children unattended in cars, but I don't agree that "making an example" of David Fish by treating him like a murderer would be sending that message alone.

http://www.msnbc.com/local/kvbc/M302575.asp?cp1=1

BBtB

Okay butthead, b00bman69 calm down. b00bman69 yes we do have emotions but we have to keep our emotions in check. Sure its great to say "AN EYE FOR AN EYE" "He took a life lets take his!" I am assuming you read my earlier posts. Let me just ask you something. What do YOU hope to achieve through his death? What would be the benifits to removing him from this earth? Should we add to his suffering? Should we add to his wifes? Should his other child grow up with neither a brother NOR a father? Should his wife suffer the emotional and financial suffering of losing her husband? And for what? To punish the father? This experince will be punishment enough. Maybe to prevent others from leaving their children in cars. Of course it is a rare event. If we put him on trial and then murder him the effects would last for less then one year. Why don't we go with an earlier comment and have him do community service? Or maybe if we just leave him alone he will write an bestselling book on the subject and go on a book tour. Maybe he will start/join one of those antileaving kids in cars group. Maybe he will make a difference. Maybe through the loss of his son he goes on to save thousands of other peoples children. So I ask you again. What do you hope to achieve through his death?

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

seretogis

A child has the potential to grow up and change lives for the positive, whereas a shriveled up old man has probably already contributed all that he really will to society. Therefore, the death of a child is generally more harmful to society than the death of an elderly [wo]man.

As for trying to learn of this guys intent, does it really even matter? If he accidentally forgot that his child was in the car (which many parents on this board find impossible to believe), he is still responsible for the death of his child and still must face criminal consequences. Whether it is gross child neglect or murder in the first degree really doesn't matter, since the child is already dead and nothing will change that. In either case, this guy has shown that he cannot be trusted to be in the care of children, and should be restricted from interacting with or being responsible of anyone under the age of 18. I think that, along with the knowledge that he baked his own child to death in his car, would be a fair punishment.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Prophecy

BBtB it seems to me that this isn't just about this one man leaving his child alone in the car. It seems that it’s about this man and more. Prosecuting this guy sets a standard. What happens when the next person leaves their kid alone in a car to die on purpose? They could just claim, I forgot, it was an accident. I'm grieving here people; you can't do anything to me. Also, what if this man was a single parent with no wife, no living mother and no brothers or sisters, how would you treat him then? Does his remain family members really have that much sway on what should happen to him? Shouldn’t the man with no family be treated the same as the man with one? Equality and all right…

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

butthead

So what about a child versus a school teacher?

Of course it matters. Didn't you read the DA quote I bolded?

The child isn't the only thing in this equation. It matters a whole goddamn lot. There is a difference between intentionally ending a life and unintentionally. Yes, lives are taken regardless, but the punishment for murder would definitely not fit the crime of accidentally leaving your child to die.

He made a mistake. I'm fairly certain this was an odd incident (the guy doesn't leave children in hot vans for a hobby, ya know). Why anyone under 18 years of age? Why should he not be allowed to return to his job as a high school, provided he is not arrested, prosecuted, and put away? What is the concern? That he is children-klutzo man who constantly fumbles up with the price being the life of "the children"?

While I don't think it's exactly fair, it is a hell of a lot better of an alternative than burning him at the stake.

Charging him with murder when murder cannot be supported with the facts is extreme injustice.

That's why we have investigations to determine these things.

Justly.

I think so.

I think family should be an extra thing to consider for argument. But to the system, I think they should be considered as equal, given the situation.

Please stop trying to change subjects: If you think this was intentional, back up your argument with facts. If you think he should be burned at the stake, consider the points, and justify your response. Address counter-arguments directly.