guthmund

I forget my keys....I forget to lock the door sometimes....I've left my wallet in any number of places...

but never have I left a kid in a car by themselves. Ever.

It's a kid; they live; they breathe; it's not a fashion accessory or a piece of luggage.

How belittling.

If you had read the rest of the paragraph, you would have seen I was making a generalization. A generalization based on my personal experience and opinion. I didn't know that I would have to back up my general opinion with statistics. Forgive my faux pas. Rest assured you have righted a wrong.

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guthmund

Boy oh boy, you guys have been busy the last couple of days....



Absolutely, we agree with this. I'm sure this guy will never ever get over this

That's what's so great about this board. We managed to have a couple of spurious encounters and still managed to keep the discussion viable without resorting to "yeah well you suck" statements.

Locking him up; stringing him up; or hanging him from the tallest tree isn't what I'm suggesting. Sequester this guy; teach him; rehabilitate him. I guess I haven't been too clear on that, my fault




This guy took a life. He is expected to be punished for such crime. Whether or not the justice system is a bureaucratic tool or not, it's the system that he signed up for by being a citizen of the United States. It's a system, that although I might disagree with at times, that all of society is expected to abide by. We are all equal under the law, or at least that's what they tell us. So if other people get prison time for "accidently" killing someone, why is this guy different? What makes his ineptitude different from the guy who shoots wife while cleaning his gun, or the guy who backs over his neighbor on the way to work? These are the rules that every one of us here have to live by. These are the rules of society that are enforced by our justice system. These are the rules of society that say that crime merits punishment.

This is what I've been arguing over; this has been the focal point of my argument however haphazardly my posts seem.

What makes this guy special? Why is it, even though he killed his son, that the police "likely won't press charges?"

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4thTimeLucky

That was my point.
The debt is owed to society, not to the justice system.
Ultimately debts can only be owed to people or persons, though institutions (banks, companies, justice systems) can act as intermediaries.
By saying that we owe the debt to the system/intermediary we can often mistakenly create some extra agent that confuses the picture. The real issue is what would society want. What would serve societies best interests. How would society want the debt being repaid. When we think of it in those terms the debt can be repaid in many ways - we may simply decide (as I think many posters have) that any debt to society should be repaid by showing love to his remaining family and atoning to them as best as possible. But if we think of the debt being owed to the Justice System then of course it can only be repaid with a judicial sentance (prison, fine etc.) because those are the tools of the Judicial System.

I think you are right to keep asking "why should this man be different", if we can't answer that then we should admit we are wrong.

My answer is:
I do not think that the criminal system punishes pure "accidents". Now I know a person might be sued (espcially in America) for a pure accident [I believe the babysitter who shot a child whilst unloading a gun they had found was sued, not taken to criminal court] but that is not a criminal prosecution.
Now some "accidents" *are* criminal prosecution cases. I believe that these cases come under the term "criminal negligence" and the key to them is that a person/company knew of the risks of their actions but did not take them seriously or weigh them correctly.
In the case of this father he did not fail to weigh the risks. He simply didn't know there was any risk. Noone in their daily life gets out of an empty car and thinks "now what is the risk of the cat being in the boot? insignificant. okay, I can lock it up." Similarly this father did not get out of the car and think "now what is the risk that my son is in the car? [looks in back and sees nothing - because seat was backward facing] insignificant. okay, I can lock it up." The idea that his son was in the car completely left his mind - through no deliberate fault or decision to ignore vital information - never to return.

Now the police have come to press charges, but my personal suspicion (and it is just that) is that there has been a public outcry which has prompted this. [part of which meant that this particular case made it onto TFP and probably Fark.com?]

What I would want to know before making any more concrete decisions:
1) Have cases of pure accident (cleaning the gun and innocently shot the wife**) come before a criminal court? What were the charges and the rulings?
2) Were charges brought in the other killer-car-oven cases? What were the charges and the rulings? If no charges, why not?


** I am not even sure that the gun and the car case are the same. In the gun case if the cleaner knew it was loaded and then failed to take the appropriate safety precautions (i.e. they ignored knowledge) then it is different to if the cleaner did not know that the gun was loaded and as they were taking down off the shelf it just went off in their hands.

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butthead

If his record as a teacher was okay, yes. I don't really see this mistake as a chronic character flaw. I see it as a really unlikely mishap resulting from special circumstances. Second, what the hell does leaving a kid in a van have to do with teaching? How does the fact he left his kid in a necessarily influence his ability to educate?

I doubt it. Unlike you, I realize I have the choice to not be an emotionally driven fool.

I do think it was an accident. Seriously, if you're not going to attempt to show us that this was murder, then please quit bringing up the point and quit trying to change to subject.

chewybaca96

i've been reading through this thread and I find it very interesting. butthead would like it proven that it was intentional. I don't think anyone could do that to a helpless child with the thought in their mind that something bad could happen because no one thinks anything bad can ever happen to them. What probably happened was the kid was asleep when he went in for coffee and decided to just leave him instead of waking the kid up. When he got back in, the kid was probably still asleep not making any noise and so out of sight out of mind. I feel for the guy, he must feel horrible about himself and to me that is punishment in itself.

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jizzmasterp

It pisses me off when I see animals locked up in a car in a hot day. Either open the window, bring your pet with you or leave rover at home.

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crewsor

Sorry, but I can't see how someone could defend this guy. It surely was accidental, but you never-never-never leave a child, especially at 7 months old, alone in a vehicle. Even just to go in to get coffee. Every time I see storys like this I am more and more amazed at the stupidity of people.
I say when this happens find the person responsible and put them in the vehicle to fry their brains just like they have done to their helpless child.
Maybe then people would think twice before leaving kids locked in a car, even just to " grab a coffee".

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charlesesl

if its hot outside and u r gonna leave the baby inside the car
TURN ON THE GOD DAMN AIR CONDITIONER

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guthmund

But isn't the justice system an extension of society's will? If a debt is owed to society, society cannot force repayment or punishment, but the justice system can and usually does. I just don't see the seperation of society and the criminal system. It seems to me that the two are intertwined and dependent upon each other.


I just like consistency. One exception to the rule only leads to other exceptions.

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denim

I suspect most people haven't, or this wouldn't be news 'cause it'd happen so often.

Well, I'm sorry you took it that way.

denim

The court appears to agree with you: CNN.COM reports that there will be no charges because they see it as an accident due to the guy being rather stressed that day.

So, now what people?

butthead

Whatever it's for, it should not be used for injustice.

BBtB

It can when needed. The whole point is that he dosn't owe any debt to the justice system.... and not all debts to society are paid through the justice system.

Here is an open question to you and everyone else who thinks jail time/death is the only option for this guy. Why? What do you hope to prove or achieve through it? To take this murderous fiend off the streets? Prove there was intent and I will relent on that. Untill then don't bring it up. Or maybe you want to do it to prevent others from doing this in the future. Of course we never do anything like this. This is something that bad people who are far away do. Get real. The best way that you could use him to help others is to have him do some public speaking or educational courses or the like. Maybe you just want to teach him a thing or two. A lesson he will never forget. Of course if he has any compassion the experience alone is enough for this goal. Also, if you want to play the game that this man that you have never met and know very little about IS lacking compassion then see above about intent.

Please do not respond to this post with something that has allready been addressed.

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"I would like about three fiddy"

Angel

Upon reading the story alone I have a flood of mixed emotions. Sorrow being most prominent.
Continuing on to read the passion of all who posted here threw in a whole range of conflicting feelings and emotions.
However, sorrow still dominates.
I will keep my own feelings about this to myself and quietly say a prayer for all involved....

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