How Does Hate Happen? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

maleficent · 02-03-2006, 05:54 AM

Teenager Attacks Three Men at Gay Bar in Massachusetts

Quote:

BOSTON, Feb. 2 — A teenager armed with a hatchet and a handgun seriously injured three people early Thursday at a gay bar in New Bedford, Mass., the police said.

The teenager, Jacob Robida, was being sought Thursday night by the police, who issued an arrest warrant charging him with three counts each of assault with intent to murder, assault with a dangerous weapon and hate crimes.

Mr. Robida, 18, entered the Puzzles Lounge around midnight, the police said, and asked the bartender whether it was a gay bar.

When the bartender told him it was, Mr. Robida pulled out a hatchet and struck a man in the head, then struck a man who had tried to help the victim, said Capt. Richard Spirlet of the New Bedford police.

Captain Spirlet said that Mr. Robida pulled a gun out of his pocket and shot the man who had tried to help the first victim, then shot a third man across the bar.

The police said two victims were in critical condition.

A bartender named Phillip, who would not give his last name, told local television reporters that Mr. Robida ordered a shot of liquor, drank it, asked if he was in a gay bar, ordered and drank another shot, and attacked the first man.

The bartender said that Mr. Robida had aimed the gun at him, but he said that the gun failed to fire.

"I heard a click, and his eyes were just squinted," the bartender said.

The Associated Press reported that a court filing attached to the arrest warrant said a patron of the bar had recognized Mr. Robida from New Bedford High School, but Captain Spirlet said that Mr. Robida was no longer enrolled there.

The A.P. reported that a police affidavit said officers had found "Nazi regalia" and anti-Semitic writings on the walls of Mr. Robida's home.

Captain Spirlet said Mr. Robida had attended the junior police academy in New Bedford, which teaches discipline to adolescents.

New Bedford, an old whaling port, is a working-class city on Buzzard's Bay, about 60 miles south of Boston, and Puzzles Lounge was well-known among gays.

Before the attack on Thursday, Captain Spirlet said, the police had never had a problem at the bar.

Richard Macedo, who has owned the bar for 15 years, said it had never been the focus of any discrimination and said he had not known Mr. Robida. "It's hard to believe," Mr. Macedo said.

A candlelight vigil was held Thursday night at the bar, which remained open.

This was the top story on the news this morning... and it really makes me wonder - where hate happens, and how a person, at such a young age, with virtually no life experience, can have such hatred for people he's never met, has had no contact with... And where does the obsession with Nazi's come from?

Jackebear · 02-03-2006, 06:11 AM

Well, I guess I will be the first to say that "it all starts at home".

Now, I don't know this boy but he either has a) very prejudiced parents, b) only one prejudiced and influencial parent, c) no parents and been shoved around in shitty foster homes, or d) nice parents who just never disciplined him much, didn't know who he hung around with and bascially didn't know anything about their son.

Either way it's a bloody shame and unfortunately it's not going to stop soon.

Bill O'Rights · 02-03-2006, 06:41 AM

I have an unsupported theory that those that hate gays the most (Fred Phelps and the rednecks that beat Matthew Sheppard to death come immediately to mind) are, in fact, closeted homosexuals themselves, and just cannot come to terms with that fact. It is the thing that they hate the most about themselves, so they lash out at those who have come to terms with, and are open with their sexuality. Just a thought.
"I wish I knew how to quit you!"...but, since I don't, I'll just beat you to death.

Charlatan · 02-03-2006, 06:45 AM

There is only one thing that creates that kind of hate: ignorance.

Borla · 02-03-2006, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

There is only one thing that creates that kind of hate: ignorance.

I think often a bad experience in life combined with ignorance ends in this sort of thing.

A person is the victim of a crime done by a certain minority, so they associate all people of that race with the bad thing that happened. A woman is abused by her father or other male figure when she is a girl, so she grows up with a negative feeling towards men. A young man is abused by a male, so he grows up and does things like the guy described in the first post.........

I think often severe trauma at the hands of an individual sometime extends hatred towards all in whatever group the victim associates that individual abuser with.

JustJess · 02-03-2006, 08:26 AM

I have to agree with all of you, actually:Jack, Bill, and Charlatan. EDIT: And Borla! He speaks directly to my point! There are a lot of factors that go into making someone truly fearful of the things they don't understand.

My relative (unfortunately related by blood, no less) is strongly homophobic, and his theory? Gay men are just lazy. Yep, lazy. It's supposedly easier to get it on with other men because other men have similarly high sex drives, supposedly unlike women. An interesting thought, but... sheesh. For the record, he's homophobic due to an unfortunate childhood experience with a grown man... which made him believe that all gay men are capable of such things and in his mind, likely to do such things. That is the only other reason not listed yet (that I can think of) for someone to hate gay men - hard to control that kind of visceral reaction from childhood.

Rodney · 02-03-2006, 09:17 AM

I lived in San Francisco in the '80s, in a more or less gay neighborhood (Polk Gulch). At that time, band of teenage boys would come up from working class communities 20 or 30 miles south to spend an evening in San Francisco riding around in somebody's car, drinking, and yelling abuse at "faggots." Sometimes they'd actually beat somebody up seriously, even killed a man once that I remember.

And I saw some of these kids close up. I have pretty fine features and dressed well at the time, and since I lived in a gay neighborhood, that was enough for this little numbheads. I was walking down the street once and a bunch of kids yelled at me from a parked car. I scoped it out -- battered old car, decals from a San Bruno High School, young kid in the front seat with a bottle poking out of a paper bag. And I just stuck my head in the window and gave them what for. They just cowered. But if I'd been all alone in an alley, and acted timid, and they were out of their car and more liquored up -- they might have worked up enough animal-pack courage to go for me.

What makes it happen? Every social group needs somebody to look down on, somebody you can legally show contempt for. It's a common but harmful safety valve for dealing with the crap in your own life that you don't know how to cope with or feel powerless over. And when you're near the bottom of the barrel, as these kids were, gays are a safe target -- certainly their parents have given them cultural permission by telling them that gays are unnatural and against God.

The hate comes from confusion and unfairness and hate in their own lives. We all have to deal, and some of us deal with it badly through fear and hate and prejudice; but most of us hide such things, or apply them indirectly. Young men -- who frankly, don't have all their judgment or experience in place yet, and aren't fully socialized -- tend to react with direct violence. Against gays, against other racial or ethnic groups, and so on.

When you look at a revolutionary or subversive group that takes power against an old regime -- the Nazis, the Taliban, the Iranian Ayatollahs, the Aryan nation groups in this country -- the wise old heads at the top seek out an army of angry, disaffected young men to be their foot soldiers. They tell them that all their problems are _not_ caused by their environment, or their parents, or their lack of education, but _this_ evil group over there. Which they can attack and kill for the good of themselves and all other right-thinking individuals. And then the young men go out and burn Jewish businesses, lynch black people, torture women who don't cover their faces, and more. While the old men take political advantage, and smile.

Willravel · 02-03-2006, 09:20 AM

Hate stems from entitlement and ignorance, sometimes learned from parents and other role models.

BigBen · 02-03-2006, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney

...What makes it happen? Every social group needs somebody to look down on, somebody you can legally show contempt for. It's a common but harmful safety valve for dealing with the crap in your own life that you don't know how to cope with or feel powerless over. And when you're near the bottom of the barrel...

The hate comes from confusion and unfairness and hate in their own lives. We all have to deal, and some of us deal with it badly through fear and hate and prejudice; but most of us hide such things, or apply them indirectly. Young men -- who frankly, don't have all their judgment or experience in place yet, and aren't fully socialized -- tend to react with direct violence. Against gays, against other racial or ethnic groups, and so on.

When you look at a revolutionary or subversive group that takes power against an old regime ...the wise old heads at the top seek out an army of angry, disaffected young men to be their foot soldiers. They tell them that all their problems are _not_ caused by their environment, or their parents, or their lack of education, but _this_ evil group over there. Which they can attack and kill for the good of themselves and all other right-thinking individuals. And then the young men go out ... While the old men take political advantage, and smile.

Incredible post.

That is it, right there. Never underestimate the "Pack Mentality". I truly believe that the human need to fit in out-ranks most others. Maslow had it pretty well defined, but I think fitting in is more necessary than sex.

If you don't fit in, and there is a group willing to take you in, you will do it. If they want you to hate a certain group, you will do it. If they want you to dress a certain way, you will do it.

When you are alone, nothing else matters. "Old Men" know this, and take advantage of it.

BTW, might I take offence to the usage of the term "Old Men"? No? Oh, okay, no problem.

Charlatan · 02-03-2006, 10:05 AM

Like I said, ignorance. The life blood of the hate in all the examples given, for there are a myriad reasons for hate to grow, is ignorance.

Grasshopper Green · 02-03-2006, 10:15 AM

I think it's probably a fitting in issue as well as what is taught (or not taught as the case may be) at home.

Growing up, my siblings and I were really ostracized and tormented because we weren't Mormon. I don't think that all the kids fully understood why we were the abuse receivers..they just didn't want to be the ones getting it so they gave it instead. As we got older and this mentality went away a little, the ignorance aspect showed up. My brother dated a girl his senior year who was Mormon (who wasn't?). At the end of the year she found out and her response was this :"But, but you don't drink! Or smoke! Or swear or do drugs...you're a GOOD person!"...as if she had been taught that all non-Mormons were drug addicted, hell raising degenerates and that was what gave them away.

I can only apply this in a limited form, because the type of hatred that mal presented is beyond what I've dealt with, but I would guess it came about in a similar way as what I said.

lindalove · 02-04-2006, 09:45 PM

Here's his myspace if anyone is interested....

http://www.myspace.com/jakejekyll

maleficent · 02-04-2006, 09:52 PM

Massachusetts gay bar shooting suspect capturedx

Quote:

LITTLE ROCK, Arkansas (Reuters) - The 18-year-old suspect in a bloody attack on three men in a Massachusetts gay bar was captured in Arkansas on Saturday after killing a police officer and a woman, police said.
Jacob Robida was shot in the head and was in critical condition in a Springfield, Missouri, hospital after an exchange of gunfire with police, Massachusetts police said at a news conference.

"He's in critical condition and it doesn't look very well for him right now," said Paul Walsh, district attorney in Bristol County, Massachusetts.

The teenager became the target of a manhunt after he was accused of wounding three people with a gun and a hatchet in a New Bedford, Massachusetts, gay bar late on Wednesday.

Robida faces about a dozen charges, including three counts of attempted murder and civil rights violations for the attack that stunned gays in the region and raised fears the assailant could strike again.

Robida was pulled over for a routine traffic stop in Gassville in north-central Arkansas. He then shot and killed a police officer, according to police in New Bedford.

Arkansas state troopers then pursued Robida for 16 miles to Norfork, Arkansas, before he crashed his car. Troopers saw Robida shoot an unidentified woman in his car, according to authorities. When they approached him a shootout began in which Robida was shot twice in the head, New Bedford police said.

Three nights ago Robida walked into Puzzles Lounge in New Bedford, ordered two drinks and then went on a rampage after asking a bartender, "Is this a gay bar?"

When told he was in a gay bar, Robida walked into a back area where several men played pool, reached into his coat and pulled out a hatchet, police said.

He lunged at several men, striking two in the face with the hatchet before several of the bar's 18 patrons attempted to restrain him, police said. He then drew a gun and began firing, according to police and witnesses.

Relief spread through New Bedford on Saturday evening on news Robida had been caught. But some patrons at the bar where Robida attacked were frightened some of his supporters might come back for them.

"I'm just very happy this story has come to an end because the feeling around here was that Robida would not go down easy," said Robert Perry, one of the teenager's victims, his right eye badly bruised and his right cheek cutA search of Robida's bedroom turned up neo-Nazi literature and posters slurring gays, Jews and blacks, Walsh told Reuters on Friday.

"It is pressure off my chest but I am still remaining in fear. He has a circle of friends on the Web and they all support him," said Phillip Daggett, the bartender at Puzzles who witnessed the attack.

charmingg ending...

Sweetpea · 02-04-2006, 09:57 PM

my gosh

i don't know what to say..

I think there might have been a mental imbalance in this young man? Doesn't this go beyond hate and into insanity?

sweetpea

Plaid13 · 02-06-2006, 02:12 PM

Im betting he was gay and pissed at himself because of it and too much of a wuss to kill himself so he went out and found other gays to try to kill. Homophobic people are just flat out stupid. as a straight male i personaly wish every other guy in my area was gay. oh man it would be nice to swing the odds in my favor for finding the right girl =)

As far as where people learn to hate gays... that starts in grade school from what i can tell. play any online video game where young teens are and you will start to notice the most common way they insult eachother is calling them gay like its the worst thing in the world. i really doubt a 12 year old could go through a day of school without hearing someone being called gay.

It all comes down to people are stupid. His parents were bad didnt teach him hey dont kill people didnt teach him how to accept otheres even if they are diffrent and most likely taught him that gay= evil.

alansmithee · 02-06-2006, 03:42 PM

So I guess this would be perfectly ok behavior if it wasn't a gay bar, correct? It's only tragic when gays are targetted, based on the replies.

LazyBoy · 02-06-2006, 03:44 PM

I hate to admit it (sorry, no pun intended), but I honestly think that most who "hate" are simply uneducated. It seems as though that many people who hate another group don't "really" know anything about them. They were just brought up to know that they were supposed to dislike them...And usually they never even know what the hated party stands for...

maleficent · 02-06-2006, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

So I guess this would be perfectly ok behavior if it wasn't a gay bar, correct? It's only tragic when gays are targetted, based on the replies.

Nope -- it's tragic when anyone gets targeted... in this case, I doubt it would have gotten national news attention

abaya · 02-06-2006, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney

What makes it happen? Every social group needs somebody to look down on, somebody you can legally show contempt for. It's a common but harmful safety valve for dealing with the crap in your own life that you don't know how to cope with or feel powerless over. And when you're near the bottom of the barrel, as these kids were, gays are a safe target -- certainly their parents have given them cultural permission by telling them that gays are unnatural and against God.

The hate comes from confusion and unfairness and hate in their own lives. We all have to deal, and some of us deal with it badly through fear and hate and prejudice; but most of us hide such things, or apply them indirectly. Young men -- who frankly, don't have all their judgment or experience in place yet, and aren't fully socialized -- tend to react with direct violence. Against gays, against other racial or ethnic groups, and so on.

When you look at a revolutionary or subversive group that takes power against an old regime -- the Nazis, the Taliban, the Iranian Ayatollahs, the Aryan nation groups in this country -- the wise old heads at the top seek out an army of angry, disaffected young men to be their foot soldiers. They tell them that all their problems are _not_ caused by their environment, or their parents, or their lack of education, but _this_ evil group over there. Which they can attack and kill for the good of themselves and all other right-thinking individuals. And then the young men go out and burn Jewish businesses, lynch black people, torture women who don't cover their faces, and more. While the old men take political advantage, and smile.

Excellent, excellent post.

We could really use something like this over in the Danish Cartoon thread...

Gilda · 02-06-2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alansmithee

So I guess this would be perfectly ok behavior if it wasn't a gay bar, correct? It's only tragic when gays are targetted, based on the replies.

That's a little extreme, don't you think? Do you see a single response here that implies that these actions would be justified if the targeted group were a different one?

It's tragic that this boy attacked a group of innocent people. That this attack was motivated by a hatred of gays is worthy of noting because it gives us insight into both the kind of person who commits this type of act and insight into how such prejudice can sometimes express itself.

Gilda

Marvelous Marv · 02-11-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

There is only one thing that creates that kind of hate: ignorance.

I would venture that it can also spring from seeing a group to which you don't belong get preferential treatment from schools and/or the government.

It was true before the Voting Rights Act, and it's just as true now.

analog · 02-11-2006, 11:36 AM

Ignorance and fear.

maximusveritas · 02-11-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

I would venture that it can also spring from seeing a group to which you don't belong get preferential treatment from schools and/or the government.

It was true before the Voting Rights Act, and it's just as true now.

In other words, ignorance.

Menoman · 02-11-2006, 11:38 AM

Cruelty is not only something taught, it's also a byproduct of experience imo

Trisk · 02-11-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plaid13

As far as where people learn to hate gays... that starts in grade school from what i can tell. play any online video game where young teens are and you will start to notice the most common way they insult eachother is calling them gay like its the worst thing in the world. i really doubt a 12 year old could go through a day of school without hearing someone being called gay.

While I'm sure this terminology does influence some children later in life, I don't think that word is what spouts homophobia in children and adolescents. While it may seem disgusting that small children use words like these...this is an age where lots of little boys still think it's icky to kiss girls, and vice versa. Of course they're going to think kissing each other is gross too. Especially since it's not something commonly seen and accepted in our society. And as they get older, a lot of them continue to say it, but I can say from experience(with a younger brother), it becomes a word that isn't even associated with homosexuals anymore. It's like another word to replace "lame". I don't think many kids think too much into it.
By the time these kids are 15, their friends will most likely be beginning to tell them to please stop using the word "gay" in that way. I think it's just the maturity and awareness of more of the world. When they can think for themselves, read for themselves, see the world for themselves, they make their own opinions about homosexuality and many of them decide that it's okay, even if "that's gay" was their favorite statement in middle school.
I believe, more often than not, true hatred of homosexuals or any other group of people begins in other places, whether it be from their parents encouraging their "gay=bad" remarks from a young age or the variety of other things people have said here already.

By the way, I must add, awesome responses so far from most people

Marvelous Marv · 02-11-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximusveritas

In other words, ignorance.

Careful--I'm sure many have recognized that what I said applies to affirmative action, "hate speech," and college admissions quotas.

Now I'll just sit back and wait for the cries of "Threadjack!" and "Bigot!" to subside. Although they never subside for long.

Trisk · 02-11-2006, 04:47 PM

I think it was quite obvious what you meant, Marvelous Mary.
Unlike Maximumveritas, I didn't equate your post to mean ignorance, but just bitterness.
Some people will hate others over things like affirmative action and other benefits to minorities. You're right.
But keep in mind that the reasons those things are there is becuase at one point, these groups were seriously UNDERpriveledged, and someone decided the best way to change that would be to make laws that sped up integration. The need for laws on those things wanes, though, as people grow accustomed to diversity in schools and other places.
The idea that minorities get all the benefits comes into question when, these days, even many African Americans want Affirmative Action gone. It takes away legitamacy when they're applying for jobs later in life, and makes them discount their own achievements. (Anotherwards, let's say 'Joe' went to Harvard, as a black person. He will always wonder whether he only got in because of his skin color, not because he was quite up to par with the other applicants. Furthermore, if he were up to par with the other students of Harvard, once in the working world, his job application might be credited to mean less next to a white person's with the same education....just because of the awareness of preferential treatment.)

Anyways, if you hate groups of minorities due to "preferential treatment", I would just like to point out that the amount of people who actually benefit from these things isn't that high. Anyone who gets into Harvard or any other good school probably has SOME brain on their shoulders, no matter what race they are. Sure, most scholarships are aimed at minority groups these days too, but honestly, it's not foolishness to think they might need it more than other groups of people. African Americans and Hispanic people continue to be among the poorest groups overall in the US. The reasons for this are an entirely different story, and I don't want ot get into an argument about that, but look at it this way: Not only do scholarships enable a group that people like you consider leeches on society/tax dollars to get an education and become self-reliant, contributing members, but it gives them the inspiration and hope to make something out of their lives. Sometimes, people just don't try because they feel like it's useless. These "preferential treatments" change that.
Regardless, most African Americans don't get the benefits of a scholarship or entrance into top schools. I mean, there are quite a few minorities in the US, and only so many scholarships. And even if they do [get too many benefits for your liking], hate the system. Not the African Americans. If you hate people for having slight advantages in some way, I think you really just need to grow up and stop being jealous and bitter.

guthmund · 02-11-2006, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Massachusetts gay bar shooting suspect capturedx

The officer was killed not 10 miles from where I'm sitting right now. Yesterday, my beloved little city nearly shut down for the funeral, which coincidentally is practically in my back yard.

A number of officers from New Bedford came down to attend the service, which I thought was commendable.

I have very little else to add other than to say that it's a bit simple to say that this kind of hatred stems from simple ignorance. It's something...more. These idiots choose to be ignorant. For whatever reason---to please a parent, to fit in with others, whatever---these idiots choose to stay ignorant because it's easier and less unsettling to take their fear and turn it into irrational hate than face the harder truth about others or, worse, themselves.

I'm sure there are other factors and I'm not even sure what that 'more' is, but to dismiss this kind of act as simple ignorance...well, it just doesn't sit right with me.

KnifeMissile · 02-11-2006, 06:57 PM

Here's a wild and crazy theory.

Everyone thinks that this is a man who hates gays and that hatred caused his acts of violence.

But what if it was the other way around? What if this is a man who loves violence but needed to legitimize his behaviour, somehow? He then chooses gays because he knew there would be some people who'd support him, and then act out his desire with a clear conscience?

Honestly, from the evidence at his home and his other actions, all I can say is that the guy was a raving lunatic and the world is better off with him gone...

FoolThemAll · 02-11-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I have an unsupported theory that those that hate gays the most (Fred Phelps and the rednecks that beat Matthew Sheppard to death come immediately to mind) are, in fact, closeted homosexuals themselves, and just cannot come to terms with that fact.

In my experience, homophobes rarely turn out to be gay. Then again, 'anecdotal' isn't much better than 'unsupported'. But I just don't see it.

And almost every other kind of bigot out there finds a way to hate without secret self-loathing; you don't see very many black white supremacists outside of Chappelle's Show.

percy · 02-13-2006, 07:30 AM

I think hate comes from someones internal never ending frustrations with who they are and why they can't do anything to change themselves for whatever reasons. Acting out in a violent way is their release. Unfortunately not a good release but the only release they view as proper.

And the more 'hateful' the ideologies they believe in, the more justified and hateful they become. Misery loves company.

02-03-2006, 06:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jackebear Insane	Well, I guess I will be the first to say that "it all starts at home". Now, I don't know this boy but he either has a) very prejudiced parents, b) only one prejudiced and influencial parent, c) no parents and been shoved around in shitty foster homes, or d) nice parents who just never disciplined him much, didn't know who he hung around with and bascially didn't know anything about their son. Either way it's a bloody shame and unfortunately it's not going to stop soon. __________________ Life's jounney is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn-out shouting, "Holy sh*t! What a ride!" - unknown

02-03-2006, 06:41 AM	#3 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	I have an unsupported theory that those that hate gays the most (Fred Phelps and the rednecks that beat Matthew Sheppard to death come immediately to mind) are, in fact, closeted homosexuals themselves, and just cannot come to terms with that fact. It is the thing that they hate the most about themselves, so they lash out at those who have come to terms with, and are open with their sexuality. Just a thought. "I wish I knew how to quit you!"...but, since I don't, I'll just beat you to death. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

02-03-2006, 06:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	There is only one thing that creates that kind of hate: ignorance. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-03-2006, 08:26 AM	#6 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	I have to agree with all of you, actually:Jack, Bill, and Charlatan. EDIT: And Borla! He speaks directly to my point! There are a lot of factors that go into making someone truly fearful of the things they don't understand. My relative (unfortunately related by blood, no less) is strongly homophobic, and his theory? Gay men are just lazy. Yep, lazy. It's supposedly easier to get it on with other men because other men have similarly high sex drives, supposedly unlike women. An interesting thought, but... sheesh. For the record, he's homophobic due to an unfortunate childhood experience with a grown man... which made him believe that all gay men are capable of such things and in his mind, likely to do such things. That is the only other reason not listed yet (that I can think of) for someone to hate gay men - hard to control that kind of visceral reaction from childhood. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

02-03-2006, 09:17 AM	#7 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	I lived in San Francisco in the '80s, in a more or less gay neighborhood (Polk Gulch). At that time, band of teenage boys would come up from working class communities 20 or 30 miles south to spend an evening in San Francisco riding around in somebody's car, drinking, and yelling abuse at "faggots." Sometimes they'd actually beat somebody up seriously, even killed a man once that I remember. And I saw some of these kids close up. I have pretty fine features and dressed well at the time, and since I lived in a gay neighborhood, that was enough for this little numbheads. I was walking down the street once and a bunch of kids yelled at me from a parked car. I scoped it out -- battered old car, decals from a San Bruno High School, young kid in the front seat with a bottle poking out of a paper bag. And I just stuck my head in the window and gave them what for. They just cowered. But if I'd been all alone in an alley, and acted timid, and they were out of their car and more liquored up -- they might have worked up enough animal-pack courage to go for me. What makes it happen? Every social group needs somebody to look down on, somebody you can legally show contempt for. It's a common but harmful safety valve for dealing with the crap in your own life that you don't know how to cope with or feel powerless over. And when you're near the bottom of the barrel, as these kids were, gays are a safe target -- certainly their parents have given them cultural permission by telling them that gays are unnatural and against God. The hate comes from confusion and unfairness and hate in their own lives. We all have to deal, and some of us deal with it badly through fear and hate and prejudice; but most of us hide such things, or apply them indirectly. Young men -- who frankly, don't have all their judgment or experience in place yet, and aren't fully socialized -- tend to react with direct violence. Against gays, against other racial or ethnic groups, and so on. When you look at a revolutionary or subversive group that takes power against an old regime -- the Nazis, the Taliban, the Iranian Ayatollahs, the Aryan nation groups in this country -- the wise old heads at the top seek out an army of angry, disaffected young men to be their foot soldiers. They tell them that all their problems are _not_ caused by their environment, or their parents, or their lack of education, but _this_ evil group over there. Which they can attack and kill for the good of themselves and all other right-thinking individuals. And then the young men go out and burn Jewish businesses, lynch black people, torture women who don't cover their faces, and more. While the old men take political advantage, and smile. Last edited by Rodney; 02-03-2006 at 09:20 AM..

02-03-2006, 09:20 AM	#8 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Hate stems from entitlement and ignorance, sometimes learned from parents and other role models.

02-03-2006, 10:05 AM	#10 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Like I said, ignorance. The life blood of the hate in all the examples given, for there are a myriad reasons for hate to grow, is ignorance. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-03-2006, 10:15 AM	#11 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	I think it's probably a fitting in issue as well as what is taught (or not taught as the case may be) at home. Growing up, my siblings and I were really ostracized and tormented because we weren't Mormon. I don't think that all the kids fully understood why we were the abuse receivers..they just didn't want to be the ones getting it so they gave it instead. As we got older and this mentality went away a little, the ignorance aspect showed up. My brother dated a girl his senior year who was Mormon (who wasn't?). At the end of the year she found out and her response was this :"But, but you don't drink! Or smoke! Or swear or do drugs...you're a GOOD person!"...as if she had been taught that all non-Mormons were drug addicted, hell raising degenerates and that was what gave them away. I can only apply this in a limited form, because the type of hatred that mal presented is beyond what I've dealt with, but I would guess it came about in a similar way as what I said. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

02-04-2006, 09:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
lindalove Registered User	Here's his myspace if anyone is interested.... http://www.myspace.com/jakejekyll

02-04-2006, 09:57 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	my gosh i don't know what to say.. I think there might have been a mental imbalance in this young man? Doesn't this go beyond hate and into insanity? sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

02-06-2006, 02:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	Im betting he was gay and pissed at himself because of it and too much of a wuss to kill himself so he went out and found other gays to try to kill. Homophobic people are just flat out stupid. as a straight male i personaly wish every other guy in my area was gay. oh man it would be nice to swing the odds in my favor for finding the right girl =) As far as where people learn to hate gays... that starts in grade school from what i can tell. play any online video game where young teens are and you will start to notice the most common way they insult eachother is calling them gay like its the worst thing in the world. i really doubt a 12 year old could go through a day of school without hearing someone being called gay. It all comes down to people are stupid. His parents were bad didnt teach him hey dont kill people didnt teach him how to accept otheres even if they are diffrent and most likely taught him that gay= evil.

02-06-2006, 03:42 PM	#16 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	So I guess this would be perfectly ok behavior if it wasn't a gay bar, correct? It's only tragic when gays are targetted, based on the replies.

02-06-2006, 03:44 PM	#17 (permalink)
LazyBoy Insane Location: Memphis Area	I hate to admit it (sorry, no pun intended), but I honestly think that most who "hate" are simply uneducated. It seems as though that many people who hate another group don't "really" know anything about them. They were just brought up to know that they were supposed to dislike them...And usually they never even know what the hated party stands for... __________________ Life is nothing, everything.....and something in between...

02-11-2006, 11:36 AM	#22 (permalink)
analog Banned	Ignorance and fear.

02-11-2006, 04:47 PM	#27 (permalink)
Trisk Insane	I think it was quite obvious what you meant, Marvelous Mary. Unlike Maximumveritas, I didn't equate your post to mean ignorance, but just bitterness. Some people will hate others over things like affirmative action and other benefits to minorities. You're right. But keep in mind that the reasons those things are there is becuase at one point, these groups were seriously UNDERpriveledged, and someone decided the best way to change that would be to make laws that sped up integration. The need for laws on those things wanes, though, as people grow accustomed to diversity in schools and other places. The idea that minorities get all the benefits comes into question when, these days, even many African Americans want Affirmative Action gone. It takes away legitamacy when they're applying for jobs later in life, and makes them discount their own achievements. (Anotherwards, let's say 'Joe' went to Harvard, as a black person. He will always wonder whether he only got in because of his skin color, not because he was quite up to par with the other applicants. Furthermore, if he were up to par with the other students of Harvard, once in the working world, his job application might be credited to mean less next to a white person's with the same education....just because of the awareness of preferential treatment.) Anyways, if you hate groups of minorities due to "preferential treatment", I would just like to point out that the amount of people who actually benefit from these things isn't that high. Anyone who gets into Harvard or any other good school probably has SOME brain on their shoulders, no matter what race they are. Sure, most scholarships are aimed at minority groups these days too, but honestly, it's not foolishness to think they might need it more than other groups of people. African Americans and Hispanic people continue to be among the poorest groups overall in the US. The reasons for this are an entirely different story, and I don't want ot get into an argument about that, but look at it this way: Not only do scholarships enable a group that people like you consider leeches on society/tax dollars to get an education and become self-reliant, contributing members, but it gives them the inspiration and hope to make something out of their lives. Sometimes, people just don't try because they feel like it's useless. These "preferential treatments" change that. Regardless, most African Americans don't get the benefits of a scholarship or entrance into top schools. I mean, there are quite a few minorities in the US, and only so many scholarships. And even if they do [get too many benefits for your liking], hate the system. Not the African Americans. If you hate people for having slight advantages in some way, I think you really just need to grow up and stop being jealous and bitter.

02-11-2006, 06:57 PM	#29 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	Here's a wild and crazy theory. Everyone thinks that this is a man who hates gays and that hatred caused his acts of violence. But what if it was the other way around? What if this is a man who loves violence but needed to legitimize his behaviour, somehow? He then chooses gays because he knew there would be some people who'd support him, and then act out his desire with a clear conscience? Honestly, from the evidence at his home and his other actions, all I can say is that the guy was a raving lunatic and the world is better off with him gone...

02-13-2006, 07:30 AM	#31 (permalink)
percy Addict	I think hate comes from someones internal never ending frustrations with who they are and why they can't do anything to change themselves for whatever reasons. Acting out in a violent way is their release. Unfortunately not a good release but the only release they view as proper. And the more 'hateful' the ideologies they believe in, the more justified and hateful they become. Misery loves company.