Crack

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Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

SSJTWIZTA

this made me sad.

killed all of the spirit.

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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

Willravel

That's a fairly overt and negative review of Ritalin. It's basically saying that Ritalin kills imagination.

That's pretty irresponsible.

JumpinJesus

It's irresponsible to say that ritalin kills imagination or it's irresponsible to give ritalin to a kid or it's irresponsible to give ritalin to a cartoon character or it's irresponsible to use a cartoon to make a point or it's irresponsible to photoshop new text over an old comic strip?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Willravel

It's irresponsible to suggest that Ritalin kills imagination. Ritalin may not enjoy a good reputation with some of the less educated members of the general public, but the truth is it helps a lot of people.

Glory's Sun

It's irresponsible to take it so seriously, just as it's irresponsible to suggest that you are an elite and properly educated human being, hence dooming the rest of civilization to certain death, because we just simply don't understand what ritalin is or does.

..wait.. what was I talking about?

Willravel

You're right, but people do it anyway.
I'm not especially educated. I just don't buy the BS about Ritalin being harmful because there's no real evidence to support that conclusion. And there is evidence that Ritalin helps people.
I'm not 100% sure what we're supposed to be discussing in this thread. I took a stab that it was the critique of Ritalin.

Crack

Ritalin would be a good place to start Will. The point is not how it happened, but the result. I added the title to the thread, the cartoon merely says "pills". What I do think, is that medication like Ritalin is vastly over-prescribed and used in a very poor manner by parents that do not know any better. I would venture to guess that there is a large number of kids that are taking Ritalin or similar drugs when they clearly shouldn't be.

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Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

Atreides88

I was in this crowd for a while when I was younger. I don't think it's Ritalin that is the problem, rather it's the stigma attached to it and the fact that it is over-prescribed. It also has a tendency to mess with your body chemistry. I know I suffered from extreme insomnia while I was taking it and had to have a reduced dosage because of it.

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"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

Willravel

Parents don't prescribe drugs like Ritalin, though, trained professionals like licensed psychiatrists prescribe them. And they don't just do it willy-nilly, either. It's done in response to specific criteria which the child (or adult) meets.

Maybe we should start here: why do you believe Ritalin is over prescribed? Why do you believe psychiatrists and doctors are in err?

powerclown

Newsflash: children (of just about any species) are typically hyperactive, overstimulated, unable to concentrate, nervous, aggressive, hostile, rebellious. Most of the time the parents exacerbate these symptoms and make them even worse. Many times its their peers. The very last thing I would do to address these issues would be to pump a kid full of extremely powerful, mood-altering drugs. Exercise and more (and proper) parental discipline is the right place to start imo. BigPharma, their sales reps and the dealers errrr shrinks work to meet monthly drug sales quotas as aggressively as car dealers operate to move cars off their lots. Clueless, uninformed, stressed-out parents entering a shrink's lair with hyperative Jonnies are like shooting fish in a barrel.

Crack

You are correct, parents do not prescribe them, but I can almost guarantee that if a parent goes to a doctor and starts rattling off "symptoms" then asks for some Ritalin for their child, that doctor is going to say yes.

Johnny can't concentrate in school? Because he's bored with it.
Johnny does not seem to listen when spoken to directly? He probably has no respect for you.
Johnny is often easily distracted? Hell, I'm 28 and often easily distracted.
Johnny often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat? Because he is restless, throw him outside with a ball and call him back in when dinner is ready.

I know I am overgeneralizing, but these symptoms are far to vague to even be called symptoms. Which is all that drugs like Ritalin even treat in the first place.

Got a headache? Here's some Advil. Caused by a tumor? Still just a headache right? Here's some Advil.

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Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

Atreides88

Parents may not prescribe the drugs but they do walk into the shrink's office stressed-out and emotional about little Johnny not being able to be allowed to move on to the next grade because he's not paying attention in class (read: bored) so they beg the shrink to do something. That something is prescribe Ritalin.

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"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

Zweiblumen

[ I would have liked to qoute almost all postings above :-) ...]

There is one fact about Ritalin (and related drugs ) that people are missing. These drugs have opposite affects on persons that are not ADD (ADHD). So if "Johnny" is just bored at school but not ADD then I feel sorry for everybody, Johnny, his parents and his teachers because he will be hyperactive while the drug is working.
Therefore there are few if any cases where children are prescribed Ritalin that don't need it. The problem is dosage and sideaffects.

Yours
Zweiblumen

__________________
Sodomy non sapiens. : I'm buggered if I know

Willravel

You're not describing ADHD. ADHD is a bit more specific not only in behavior but in how the behavior interferes with development.
Why do you think this? Are you privy to these private doctor appointments? Have you spoken to doctors or psychiatrists about this? I'm trying to understand where your opinion is coming from. I hear opinions like yours all the time, but no one is ever able to cite anything specific.

My fear is that Scientology won this particular battle against modern medicine in the general public:
Suits, Protests Fuel a Campaign Against Psychiatry - Los Angeles Times
That's just it, they're not vague at all. The DSM is set up in a way that's surprisingly clear. As long as you've got the training (like a psychiatrist), you'll understand ADHD and will be able to recognize it when you see it. I only have a BA in psych, but even I was taught about ADHD. They don't just hand us a DSM and give us a diploma.


Also, Zweiblumen is right. Ritalin is a stimulant. It only works to calm children that may have a dopamine imbalance. If a child without such a chemical imbalance is given Ritalin, he or she would be bouncing off the walls more than normal.

Glory's Sun

I'm going to call bullshit on this..

Doctors vastly over prescribe just about any drug there is. Hell, I was over prescribed some drugs not too long ago.. and now there's a potential lawsuit over it.

Shrinks are often times full of shit.. some are real and actually know what they are doing, but half of them are hacks who when confronted with very little facts they prescribe a drug that isn't needed. I'll put ritalin and any anti-depressant on the market in this category. They are handed out like candy.. not because they are good... but because doctors simply don't give a shit and are more concerned about their business instead of their practice.

Every drug on the market has a good side.. it has to have a good side or else it wouldn't be on the market (at least not for very long) - so to simply take a side that people are well undereducated about a drug simply because there's a hype around it is a bit naive. I think it's also naive to just assume that since you went through a DSMIV you can accurately point out what the issue is with someone.

icevrething

Just to let you all know, all medications for ADD and ADHD will be taken off the market within 10 years from lawsuits. There already is enough evidence that these drugs lead to serious cardiac problems for anyone who takes them, no matter their state of health. I was just told about this last weekend by a 4th year pharmacy student who already has a contract with CVS pharmacy. This shit is terrible for you. Not only does it increase one's heart rate, it decreases appetite and has psychological repurcusions as well. I don't have any specific case studies because this is all coming from word of mouth. Take it or leave it.

__________________

Willravel

...based again on absolutely nothing:
Again, people are posting conclusions without supporting them. Doctors vastly over prescribe just about any drug there is? Prove it. Shrinks are often times full of shit? Give me a break. Prove it. That's all I've been asking since the get-go. Until then, all of the posturing and condescension are meaningless.

And I didn't just go through the DSM, I have a degree in psychology from one of the better colleges in the country on the subject.

Zweiblumen

I think you will have to refresh your information on ADD/ADHD medications as not ALL of them increase heart rate.
And there are other drugs, not ADD/ADHD related, still on the market after they have been proven to have side effects. So I will not make any claims about the availability of ADD drugs in the future.

Yours
ZB.
PS: Caffeine can be leathal but it's still available in all stores......

__________________
Sodomy non sapiens. : I'm buggered if I know

JumpinJesus

Will, I realize you're a psychiatrist who's been properly trained and regularly prescribes medication to children within the confines of your practice, so I'll leave the expertise to you and stand by what I said earlier, which was really nothing of any consequence whatsoever.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Glory's Sun

life experiences don't count eh? nice.

prove they don't. Do doctors get bonuses from writing scripts? Do they get bonuses for not being as accurate as they could be so the insurance will notice?? Prove they don't.

I'm not saying all docs do this.. but I can promise you that a majority of doctors are more concerned on how fast they can get you out of their room and collect their money than what's really going on. The same is more than likely worse in the psych field.


Yeah.. I've been here for like 9-10 years and you always seem to have a degree in something or experience in it. So I guess I'll just stop debating it with you as I don't have a degree from one of the better colleges in the country.. so again I'm just inferior.

World's King

How many kids with ADD does it take to screw in a light bulb...
















Oh look... a butterfly...

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Willravel

Great ad hom. I do have a BA in psych (that's psychology, not psychiatry), and I do have a lot of experience with psychologists and psychiatrists in my life, but none of that's relevant at all. The burden of proof lies with the party to make the claim, in this case, that Ritalin is somehow dangerous or over prescribed. I'm asking for that burden to be reached. Or at least attempted.
-----Added 9/2/2009 at 07 : 32 : 36-----
What life experiences? You didn't mention life experiences.
"Ritalin is over prescribed."
"It is? How do you know?"
"Prove it isn't!"
"That's not how the burden of proof works."
Do you pay your doctor for an hour of his or her time? Now, how about your psychologist/psychiatrist? The two aren't the same.
You've been "here"?

Why is everyone getting pissed? It's a simple thread on a simple subject.

Baraka_Guru

Maybe we can use this as a start:
DEA Report on Ritalin: "Ritalin: addictive, abusable" -- "Ritalin: over-prescribed, over-marketed, and over-sold"
Ritalin overprescribed and dangerous, study says
Is Ritalin Overprescribed?
BBC NEWS | Health | Sharp rise in children's Ritalin use
Kids on Pills: BBC documentary examines increase in prescription drug use amongst children

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

you obviously didn't see my earlier post about how I was not only prescribed the wrong medicine.. but way too much and there is a potential lawsuit in the making.

Let me tell you another story.. my wife was having stomach problems.. and guess what the doctor prescribed.. Lexapro. yup.. a fucking anti-depressant. Now tell me.. why in the hell would someone do that? Hrmm, I don't know, maybe because they get a kick back from the scripts they write. And just so you know.. it had nothing to do with stress.

guess you're a lawyer now too.

you must have gone to a really.. and I mean a really good school to have so much expertise in all these areas.

No, I pay my doctor extremely inflated prices for them to in the end tell me nothing I didn't already know. I don't go to shrinks. I know how and why I feel the way I do. I'd rather not be prescribed some mind medicine for a needless purpose.

Here is TFP. I don't know how long you've been here.. I'm just saying that you always have an excuse or a life changing experience or experience in a subject when confronted.. so basically.. you can take what you want from that statement.

Willravel

Thank you. That's all I ever asked.
From the report:
This, along with the 500% increase in the prescribing of Ritalin between 1990 and 1996 seem to be the case being made to support the conclusion that Ritalin was being over prescribed. While I recognize that this could be evidence, it seems a bit circumstantial. The report also mentions the annual profits of the drug, but again is alleging a causal relationship without demonstrating it. They could be 100% right, but that's not demonstrated. It would be better to do a study on kids taking Ritalin to find if they all have ADHD, specifically if the drug is having the desired effect.
From the article:
That's just it, though, the 3-5% estimation is an estimation. Again, I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it shouldn't be taken as the only evidence necessary. This is disconcerting, though:
That's a very bold statement. Certainly if prescribed to the wrong person Ritalin can cause problems, and there's certainly evidence that Ritalin has side effects, but Dr. Breggin is essentially saying that Ritalin has never helped to correct biochemical imbalances.
This seems to be the same thing as the first report. The only explanation for the sudden increase in prescribing Ritalin is abuse? And this, wow:
Holy crap, so now ADHD isn't even real? I'm sure this will be followed by a strong argument:

Sharp rise in use, yes. I'm not disagreeing with that.

I'm not being glib and I'm not trying to be contrary. I'm concerned that the efforts of Scientology in the 80s and 90s have worked, shifting public opinion on the issue of drug prescriptions, especially Ritalin. Skepticism of Ritalin is fine, just make sure that it's warranted.

JumpinJesus

There was no ad hom because I wasn't making any claim and we weren't engaged in any debate. At least, I wasn't.

Will, my point is that we're not in a courtroom. For some reason, you behave as if you desperately wish we were. Crack posted a comic strip - a comic strip, dude - and you call it irresponsible.


I'm not sure if it's because you have an overwhelming desire to be viewed as a voice of logic, reason, maturity, education, whatever or if you honestly believe you're smarter than everyone, but I come here for a little enjoyment, not to pretend I'm a character in your own little Perry Mason/Quincy M.D. fantasy.

As laborious as it is to watch you nitpick everyone's posts, I do enjoy taking the piss out of you. Sadly, I think you take this a little more seriously than it deserves.

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Willravel

I don't read everything posted on the whole forum. Yes, I'm sure some doctors make mistakes and some are even negligent, but rare exceptions aren't the issue at hand. The opinion seems to be that there is some massive conspiracy to sell too much Ritalin in order to make lots of money. That's a hard pill to swallow.
Same thing. Maybe a few doctors here or there are less than ethical, choosing to sell prescription drugs first and ask questions later, but the issue seems to be one of systemic corruption.
Burden of proof in a debate has nothing to do with law. It's common sense. Why are you acting like this?
You didn't address the point I made. Play out that discussion in your head.

ring

I see this thread becoming another dog-pile on Will.

Just sayin.

JumpinJesus

You made this claim in post #3 of this thread...

Since the first claim in this thread was in fact made by you, Sir Ravel, I would argue that the burden of proof is on you at this point to prove that the intent of the comic was to paint a negative portrait of "pills". Since it's fairly overt, you should have no difficulty finding all the documentation you need to satisfy this burden of proof. In fact, I will put forward that the success of this entire thread lies with you backing up your initial claim. I don't see how we can proceed from here without it.

Then, in response to my query, you posted this:

I'll wait patiently while you provide documentation supporting your argument that suggesting Ritalin kills imagination is irresponsible. I'll also await your supporting documentation proving that Ritalin doesn't enjoy a good reputation with some of the less educated members of the general public, and I'll await your documentation supporting your claim that it helps a lot of people.

But first, I find it necessary that you define "a lot" and provide the documentation which states that your definition of "a lot" is supported by fact.

Please hurry.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Glory's Sun

rare exceptions... please. You're doing this for the sake of playing devil's advocate.. admit it. You can't honestly believe that in the state of healhcare that the majority of doctors are purely ethical in their decisions. They are in fact, more concerned about business..not practice.

you fully understand why I'm acting like this. The burden of proof varies according to the case at hand. There are two burdens of proof in this debate. One, proving that doctors don't over prescribe certain drugs and two, that they don't.

what point did I misunderstand.. sorry I didn't go to one of the better uni's in the country..I have problems understanding sometimes.

no a dog-pile would be just jumping down his throat for no reason..this is merely a debate between two opposite sides.. now if I were to just jump in here and say "will you're a fucking idiot and you're probably just some college kid who uses tfp as an alter-ego to inflate your real life ego" then yeah that would be a dog-pile ..but that hasn't happened.. and won't.

trust me, this is far from a dog-pile. That is the last thing will would want to happen.

Willravel

Sorry about the messy thread, Crack.

Tully Mars

I worked with juveniles for years as a PO. Often the state ends up being the parent, when a juvenile ends up being adjudicated (in Oregon minors can not be convicted, only adjudicated) of a crime the parole/probation officer often ends up filling that role. I've sat in on more medical eval's then I can remember. Maybe in some great HMO or private insurance situation kids are given a full eval. by a physician and/or a psychiatrist. In the real world when the state or county are paying for it it's "wham, bam thank-you... here's an Rx. Have a nice day." Rest assured the "have a nice day" part is purely optional. I've seen Doc's and shrinks throw Ritalin and other such drugs at kids after speaking to them for less then 5mins and never even seeing their medical file. SSRIs or serotonin uptake inhibitors and dopamine reuptake inhibitors are other drug groups I've seen Rx'ed to kids without any real eval. During the late 80's and through most of the 90's it's was a dirty little secret. "Little Johnny's acting out in detention or school?" No problem. Set him up with Dr. Fellgood and he'll be happy and calm all day long. He may have a few tremors and suicidal thoughts, but other then that he'll be easy to manage. Especially if you sit him in front of a TV. Zoloft and the Simpson's, best babysitters ever.

I think things have gotten better, mostly due to studies like the ones BG cites. But I know from talking to ex-co-workers it's far from uncommon.

I agree. Saying these drugs aren't over rx'ed is completely ill informed.

Not are they only over Rx'ed but they're also Rx'ed for "off-label use."

Off Label Use

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ottopilot

There are valid points from many of the comments in this thread. From experience, many children are prescribed stimulants for ADD/ADHD "symptoms" at the mere suggestion of school counselors (Jefferson County Schools KY). If a child acts up often or is a constant disruption, medication may be a requirement for the child to remain in the school. This is a fact.

And... parents DO attempt to influence their doctors to give their child "something" out of frustration or just poor parenting skills. This is highly unfortunate for the child and I believe can seriously compound the real issues remaining misaddressed.

I am an adult with ADHD. I was diagnosed in 2000 after a lifetime of frustration. I am also mildly narcoleptic (both are managed with stimulants). Ritalin and stimulants saved my life so-to-speak. I was past the point of desperation.

Now, I am a reasonably successful professional with a wife, children, a nice house, and a reasonable outlook on life. I'm either very fortunate or lucky, this in not a typical outcome. But without stimulant medication and learning how to manage my distraction, I may have disappeared into obscurity. Many who slip through the cracks are criminals or drug abusers. Many ADD/ADHD people seek to self medicate.

Stimulants work opposite for me than for most non-ADD/ADHD. My dosage may make the average person extremely agitated or hyper. I become calm and relaxed. The layers of the onion fall away and I can focus. I am also a professional musician who is now able to concentrate on technique and styles I never could master.

...any way, Ritalin or stimulants have their place if used properly. Feel free to ask questions here or in private if you'd like some information for yourself or to help others.

otto

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Tully Mars

I have no doubt these medication can be used effectively and I'm happy you've found help with your situation. But the comment you made above is just all too often true. And like I said it's not just parents. Trust me parents are way less likely to seek out these medications then people working in a close custody situation. And yes I believe misuse can and does compound problems.

But I think saying these medications aren't over Rx'ed is just like saying every 25 yr guy headed out "clubbing" has ED and needs that Viagra Rx. I mean Google "ritalin over prescribed" and see how many valid studies you get.

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ottopilot

I agree with you. Sorry that didn't come across in my post. Like over-prescription of Prozac because you aren't popular or overweight, there is a great deal of over-medicating our children for a variety of reasons. I resisted medications and still prefer not to go that way. But I'm afraid we've become a quick-fix and medicated society, and are often impatient to get at the root cause of things (like the stimulus ... sorry). When meds work, it can be a blessing.

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Crack

I just thought the cartoon was sad and tragic.

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~Halx

World's King

I like jelly beans...

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Tully Mars

I got that you were agreeing with me. And yes the Rx industry has done a fine job pushing all kinds of medications. Got a problem? Pop a pill!


Maybe a little Progenitorivox will make you feel better about the stimulus plans (or we could just save that discussion for other more appropriate threads.)

I all seriousness many people are helped greatly, like yourself, by medication. Which of course is good.

Sadly all too often it becomes the norm to just throw medication at problems. Dr's end up treating symptoms rather the root causes. I had an injury several years back which resulted in some fairly serious nerve damage. I went to one "specialist" after another. seemed none had a solution to my issue but each had another medication for me. At one point I was taking nearly 10 different medications. I got up one morning and looked in the medicine cabinet and thought- "This is nuts. I'm taking some medications to deal with the side effects of other medications. Hell I'm taking one med that deals with the side effects of another med which I'm solely taking to deal with the side effects of yet another." I got on-line and started doing my own research. I ended up throwing away about half of what I was taking and over time I was able do away with all but two medications. In doing research it turns out some of the stuff I was taking was "off label" and in one case there was a lawsuit ongoing for that off label use.

It's easy to do. You take the word of your Dr. He tells you you need this, you go the the pharmacy and they double check so the meds don't have hazardous interactions. Must be right, all these people in white coats seem to agree this is the way to deal with this problem.

Sometimes I worry all this over prescribed medicating is going to lead to some people not being prescribed meds they in fact need. But since there's money to be made I'm not too worried.
-----Added 10/2/2009 at 06 : 55 : 43-----
It is sad and tragic, photo shopped, but still sad and tragic.
-----Added 10/2/2009 at 06 : 56 : 17-----
Fuck jelly beans.

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dd3953

I am going to start this by saying I knew nothing of Ritalin outside of what I have read here. I do know something about ADD and ADHD. I am 27, and I didn't even know that they gave Ritalin to adults until I was 20, all I knew was that there must be nasty stuff in it.

When I was younger I had some "problems" (that have lessened, but I have not "grown" out of) that my doctor told my mom Ritalin would fix. I couldn't concentrate in school. I did listen when spoken to directly, but I usually forgot it within five minutes. I was easily distracted, even when I was doing something I enjoyed. I always fidget, with hands, arms, sitting or standing. And I have problems sleeping. But when my mom found out what was in Ritalin she told them no. (I'm still not sure what is in it, never really cared enough to look.)

To this day, I can't help but what wonder if some type of ADD or ADHD medication might be helpful. But I also have a problem with the list of symptoms. I've been on a number of sites, and while they all seem to agree that I have ADD, I don't feel like I meet enough of their criteria. And I don't like the idea of pills in the first place, let alone something that will change my mood. But I did opt to ask my grad school mental health department what type of tests did they do and could they label ADD, after they told me yes, after a 5 hour test, I opted out. Now I wonder, 5 hours of what?

But I have been surrounded with negative information about the pill since they first time I heard of it. I never really thought about all the people it might be helping.

The fact that the pill has the opposite affects on people who don't really have ADD is another reason I will avoid it. I'm hyper enough as it is. But what if my hyperactive behavior is just under that which makes ADD?
Is there a test or something that does not just ask the patient a bunch of questions? How do they know that the person has a dopamine imbalance?

World's King: That was just funny, with the light bulbs and butterflies.

The comic strip was funny and sad and the main reason why, whether or not I have ADD, I will not be taking any pills for it.

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[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]