kel

Why?
I hear alot of pro HK and Sig talk on these boards. And I always wonder why?
I have handled all of them in various calibers and I always find myself coming back to Glocks. They are cheap, high capacity, feel more controlable then their counterparts in HK and Sig, and are a great value.

What are those of you who prefer HK and sig looking for that you don't find in a Glock?

What faults if any do you find in them?

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cuervo

minor issue-looks. They're too....blocky.

major issue (for me)-safety. I personally feel that placing the safety on the trigger is an oxymoron. I would rather have no safety on a DAO pistol than the Glock safety on a SA pistol.

Now, that being said, I do respect Glock's reputation and will admit that safety is in the finger of the shooter and should have nothing to do with the gun.

Lebell

My own personal reasons for avoiding Glocks.

Taken from The Gun Zone

The pictures on the site are VERY interesting (and won't hotlink)

---------------------------------------------

1) What is a kB!?

Coined by firearms journalist Dean Speir, kB! is shorthand for "kaBOOM!," which is the written representation of what happens when one has a catastrophic explosive event in one's firearm, or, in this FAQ, one's Glock.

2) What causes a kB!?

Catastrophic failures may be caused by a variety of problems, but in general a Glock kB! is as a result of a case failure. The case failure occurs when pressure inside the cartridge increases to the point that it cannot be contained by the case and the material of the case fails, allowing hot gases to escape from the ruptured case web at damagingly high velocities. The resulting uncontained forces can blow the magazine out of the gun, destroy the locking block, cause the tip of the trigger to be snipped off, ruin the trigger bar, rupture the barrel, peel the forward edge of the slide at the ejection port up, and do other nasty things. In general, Glocks tend to contain case failures fairly well, but under some circumstances they can cause injury as well as damage to one's gun. At least one Federal LEO has been injured in a kB! involving a Glock 21 and a Winchester factory overcharge. Additionally, there is some evidence of there being another cause of a kB!... a barrel failure caused by improper metallurgy.


3) Which Glock models are affected?

Speir has documented many instances of kB!s, all of them in the Models 20 and 30-something Glock (.40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP). Speir has no (as in zero!) confirmed cases of Glock kB!s in the 9 x 19mm (Models 17, 17L, 18, 19, 26 and 34, although there has been one such reasonably detailed anecdotal report), or the .380 ACP/9 X 17mm (Models 25 and 28). And since the introduction of the Models 30-through-36, there have been incidents of kB!s in the 357 SIG (Models 31, 32 and 33) and the .45 ACP (Models 30 and 36) pistols as well... all with reloaded or remanufactured rounds by most accounts.

4)Why do kB!s occur in these Glock models?

Reports compiled by Speir from various independent laboratories are inconclusive as to one single cause for the catastrophic failures.

There do, however, appear to be several contributing factors which collectively may induce catastrophic case failures:


-Firing out of battery. Most Glocks will do this to some degree, especially those improperly maintained.

-Significantly overpressure rounds. These occur mostly in homemade reloads or in commercially remanufactured ammunition, but have occurred in factory ammunition as well.

-Lack of full case support in the critical area over the feed ramp of all large caliber (.40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP) Glock pistols. [See Annotation #5]

Ostensibly as a measure to promote feed reliability, Glock chamber mouths are slightly oversized. One can test this by removing the barrel from the Glock, dropping a factory round into the chamber, and observing that there is brass exposed at the six o'clock position. Take a fired case and note that there is a slight engraving if not actual bulge around the case web, which is most pronounced in the area of the case which, upon firing, was in the six-o'clock position.

Use of personally reloaded or commercially remanufactured ammunition utilizing cartridge cases of indeterminable generation. Unlike most rifle handloaders, those who reload for handguns do not as a habit segment their fired cases by generation, and each time a case is re-sized for reloading, the brass "works" and weakens through enbrittlement.

kB!s have been documented with factory ammunition, but most of them occur with either commercial or homemade reloads.


5) Do kB!s occur in other guns or just in Glocks?

kB!s do, of course, occur in other guns, but no one appears to be keeping accurate statistics for most of them. Many 1911-style handguns have partially unsupported case mouths, and numerous case separations have occurred in these guns. Early .38 Super barrels were particularly susceptible, and the critical observer may have noticed the predilection among USPSA .38 Super competitors for full beards in an attempt to cloak the vestiages of what came to be known as "super face."

Respected firearms author Frank James, in 1994, documented a number of kB!s in HK USP .40 pistols, which do have fully supported chambers.


6) What is the relationship between reloads and kB!s?

Most kB!s occur with commercially remanufactured or personally reloaded ammunition.

Successive re-sizing and firing of a case result in eventual weakening of the brass, increasing the probability of case failure. The partially unsupported chamber in the Glock exacerbates this problem.

"Hard crimping" or overseating of bullets, particularly in the .40 S&W, can cause dramatic increases in pressure almost to the same degree as a propellant overcharge. [See Annotation #3] Either alone or in combination with a weakened case, these factors can result in a kB!

Some people have also postulated a relationship between the use of cast lead bullets and kB!, arguing that buildup of lead in the chamber can lead to pressure buildups as well. The jury seems to be out on this one as a direct causation, but lead build-up will sometimes cause a round to not fully chamber, and as Glocks can discharge with the action not completely locked up ("out of battery," [see Annotation #4]), this can lead to a catastrophic failure.

7) What can I do to prevent a kB!?

Shoot only new factory ammunition out of your Glock. This is what Glock, Inc. recommends, as do several members of Glock-L. Shooting reloads voids your factory warranty.

Install a barrel with a fully supported chamber. Custom barrel makers include Bar-Sto Precision Machine and...

Briley Manufacturing
Jarvis Precision
Wilson Combat
...but as can be seen in the adjacent image, even this is not fool-proof if a Glock shooter is determined to over-charge a round!
Avoid wherever possible .40 S&W ammunition manufactured by Federal Cartridge Company prior to November 1995. For related data, see Annotation #2, a part of this FAQ.
At an October 1996 G.S.S.F. match on Long Island, one competitor with a Model 22 had simply switched to a .40 S&W Sigma barrel which he averred not only better allowed him to shoot lead because of the conventional rifling, but that the fully supported Sigma chamber significantly decreased the opportunities for a kB!

Note: This procedure is neither recommended nor authorized by Glock, Inc. or Glock Ges.m.b.H.

8) If I insist on reloading for my 357 SIG or .40-something Glock, what can I do to minimize the chances of a kB!?

Install a custom barrel. See 7B.
Keep careful track of your brass. Load "Major Power Factor" loads only in new brass. Don't use range pickups. Don't shoot "hot loads" from used brass. Discard used brass sooner than you would normally.
Use calipers or case gauges to keep your reloads within spec. Check for excessive bulging in the case web and make sure your bullets are seated to the correct length. Also check for excessive case thinning or bulging.
The propellant AA#5 [See Annotation #1] has been identified in a disproportionate number of kB!s, not only in Glocks but USP40s with barrels which do provide full case support. A number of Glock-L members have reported kB!s involving this propellant. It is not clear whether these kB!s are the fault of the propellant or the reloader, but it is clear that they are occurring in disproportionate numbers. As early as Fall '92 a source inside Glock, Inc. told Speir on background: "A lot of the blown up Models 22 and 23 we've been seeing has involved Accurate Arms #5... and damned if we know why."

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Lebell

Oh, and I dislike the trigger safety as well.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Moonduck

-Firing out of battery. Most Glocks will do this to some degree, especially those improperly maintained.

-Significantly overpressure rounds. These occur mostly in homemade reloads or in commercially remanufactured ammunition, but have occurred in factory ammunition as well.

-Lack of full case support in the critical area over the feed ramp of all large caliber (.40 S&W, 10mm, .45 ACP) Glock pistols. [See Annotation #5]

2 out of 3 of the above are operator error. I've seen kB's on S&W Police Model .38 Specials for goodness sake. They're basically bulletproof and wildly over-engineered, yet people still blow them up by over-charging handloads (and the rare oddball overcharge from factory). I personally consider this statistical puffery from someone with an axe to grind on Glocks. The 1911 series has, in standard trim, a partially unsupoorted barrel and can kB when improperly maintained and used with overcharged handloads. Nothing about dangerous 1911's kB'ing.

You will always see Glock hate out there. Like em or not, Glock's changed the face of handgunning forever. Prior to Gaston Glock's M-17, there was precisely zero serious consideration of a plastic-framed gun. Now damned near every major manufacturer makes one, or has made one. The problem here is that there will be those that despise change in any form, and Glock is the flagwaver for change in handgun design.

I like Glocks. I have a Glock 19 that has been, hands-down, the most reliable autopistol I've ever owned (zero stoppages, period). The only guns I've ever owned with record like it has are revolvers. Hell, I've owned revolvers that were less reliable. (In case anyone is wondering, I've also owned products by Sig, H&K, Ruger, etc so I do have a fair pool to compare it to).

As to the safety argument, I disagree. I learned gun safety a long time ago, and the rules taught me not to trust mechanical safeties. I also learned to shoot on revolvers, what have no active safeties anyway. That whole "Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot" lesson comes to mind. There are no "safe" pistols, only safe gunhandling practices.

Now, if you want to talk about what the trigger-face safety does to the quality of the trigger pull, I'll grouse with you. Awful triggers, but it isn't in my possession as a target gun anyway. If you want to gripe about drop-free mags that don't drop, or the fact that it (liek all polymer framed guns) has a nasty tendency towards increased muzzle-flip as you empty the clip due to changing center of gravity, I'm with you. The whole kB thing is, as I've said, statistical puffery though, so I can't really go with you on that one.

As to Sig's, they're great. What can I say? They are a shooter's gun, and I don't think I've ever talked to anyone that has had any sort of relationship with a Sig that didn't like the like. H&K is similar, though I am not the rabid USP fan that others seem to be. I can get lathered up over the P7, but the USP is merely nice and practical, not zoomy cool like the P7. Bottom line is that Sig and H&K make very, very good guns that shooters like quite a bit, and this is, in many ways, a shooters' forum.

SuperMidget

Glock makes good pistols, no doubt about it. However, with my smaller hands, a single stack 1911 design fits my hand so much better. Glocks are just to fat in the grip for my taste.

Just my two cents.

Giant Hamburger

The trigger pull on the two Glocks I have used were identically terrible. I now know to blame it on the trigger-face safety. It's my only issue with the Glock but an essential one. It's hard to get over an issue with pulling the trigger.

kel

I find the trigger pull question interesting.
I find Glock triggers to be better then the rental p229 (I think 229, can't remember) and USP I have used.

With both the USP and p229 it was a guessing game as to when the gun was actually going to fire.

I find the trigger pull on the glock to be very predictable, I always know the moment when the gun is actually going to fire. Maybe this is just a learned taste.

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Moonduck

Well, I'm guilty of being non-specific. Glock has about 7 different levels of springs for it's triggers, from the 3.5-4lb triggers on the competition guns all the way up to abominations like the 13lb trigger used in NYPD issue Glocks. When I am calling Glock triggers poor I am referring to the creepiness of the trigger, the flex of the actual plastic unit and connectors, and the general lack of "crispness".

USP has similar problems, and the plastic flex issue even worse as their triggers are longer and the action is classic DAO, meaning generally heavier trigger pulls on first shot and thus more flex. I would not call a Glock trigger "bad", and I certainly wouldn't compare it to a USP and call the USP's trigger better.

As to the Sig guns, I owned a P-229 (alloy framed with an alloy trigger, etc) and found it to have one of the best triggers I've ever had on a factory autopistol. I knew precisely when it was going to touch off, there was no creep, or gritty feel, and the trigger was smooth regardless of which mode DA or SA. I would compare a Sig to a Glock and say the Glock has the worse of the two insofar as triggers go.

As I said before, I own a Glock 19 and count it as one of my favorite shooters. Accurate, handy, dead on reliable, and tough as nails. It's all I can ask for in a gun. The USP that I owned was eventually given to my Mother as a present. My Mom fell in love with it and I gave it to her, considering my Glock a better piece. The Sig is also no longer in my possession, yet the Glock remains. I have no qualms about griping about certain aspects of the Glock (fricken slide release button is too small!) but still choose it for CCW and general carry over anything else I own.

kel

I will have to go back and try the 229 again, now that I am more experienced.

__________________
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Lebell

I have a 226 (DA/SA) and the SA is a dream.

In general I don't care for DAO pistols, but I thank God for it on my Kel Tec, that and the LOOOONG HEAVY trigger pull.

That's the only safety ON that gun.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Jonnymax

I was dead set on a glock 30 for my carry gun... but I held it... and held it, and held it some more. It never felt comfortable and as a result I never even shot one. I instead picked up a USP compact .45 to compliment the USP Tactical I had picked up while trying to decide on my carry piece.

blockmaan2000

Lebell, the kB instance happens with a lot of guns. I've personally seen HK's and SIG's kB. Normally attributed to ammo problems (read: reloads).Glocks do have larger, more forgiving chambers in order to gobble anything you throw at them. This leads to less support of the case and possible kB's. Other pistols have similar support. Is the Kel Tec really that different from a Glock?

Block

Lebell

Shrug.

Yeah I know, but it seems you hear more about them with Glocks.

My main gun dealer (someone who really knows his shit), really doesn't like Glocks either. Say's he's taken too many out of the box that "rattle" and he's sent too many back.

The Glock is undoubtably better than a Kel Tec, but you're comparing apples and oranges. The Kel Tec is meant as a back up gun (which a lot of Glock carrying cops use), not a main service revolver.

I note (with some smugness) that Glocks have never been in the running for any serious govt. contracts and they've lost many police dept. contracts because of quality issues.

__________________
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Moonduck

The Glock was wide-released shortly after the US Army went to the Beretta. Independant tests showed that the M-17 would have passed every DoD test with flying colours and could have been produced at a lower unit cost than the Beretta. Were it not for timing, the US Army might be carrying Glocks today.

As to contracts, NYPD allows officers to carry Glocks as do a large number of other Metro depts. The biggest reason IMO that Glocks have never gotten much in the way of major police sales is a lack of obvious external safety, which has become a major liability issue for many depts. They like to be able to see that the weapon is on safe instead of just passively safe.

As to the chamber, please remember that the Glock is designed from the ground up to be used by the Austrian military in full field conditions. Berattas aren't, Sigs aren't, S&W aren't. As such, it MUST have looser tolerances in many areas to allow it properly function in extremely adverse conditions. I have a couple of S&W autos. One is a Perf Center Shorty Forty. It's reliable under normal conditions. Get it a bit mucky and it doesn't like to work. The other is a former VA State Police 10mm (love 10mm). It is much sloppier due to being a trooper's carry gun and not being a Perf Center gun to begin with. It doesn't mind some grit, water, etc. My Glock doesn't care about anything. Freeze it, leave it in the mud, bury it in a hole in the ground, doesn't matter. Shakke off the excess garbage and pull the trigger. The bullets still come out like they're supposed to and the action cycles. This is why Glocks are good guns. It really is the Kalshnikov of handguns, it's just made better.

Mustis

If any of you are interested in a glock, you should check out Springfield's new XD pistols. Many features from the glock were taken into account when the Croations designed this pistol, and I have to see the XD's are very impressive. I'm looking at getting myself a 5" Tactical version chambered in .40S&W. Also, refer to Chuck Taylor's review of the gun, Here

- M

Moonduck

The XD, along with the SigPro, H&K USP, Colt All-American, S&W Sigma, and others is proof positive that the Glock design model is solid.

Okay, the Colt was a piece of crap, but what do you expect?

monkeysugar

My only problem with glocks: they are too big for my hands. Perhaps with different grips I would like them more.

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shalafi

I've never fired a glock but the thing I dont like about them is the way they feel in my hand. Its not just glocks either I dont like any of the plastic frame guns ive held. I just personally prefer the weight of a metal frame. It feels better in my hand. I also don't like the idea of the trigger safety. I know logically that it should be fine because you shouldnt have your finger on the trigger until your ready to fire but I like to be able to look down and see the lever flipped down and know the gun is on safe. So basically for me its just a personal preference thing.

Dostoevsky

As blockmaan2000 already pointed out, all guns KB from time to time. The most common cause being reloads that have been loaded way above factory specs, often referred to as "hot loads." In my experience, I would say there are two main reasons that you hear about Glock KB's more than others:

1. There are more Glocks in circulation than any other type of pistol.

2. I get the feeling that there is a certain amount of anti-glock sentiment within many gun circles for whatever reasons. Blocky, plastic, different, not a 1911, unusual safety feature, etc.

Anyway, from my experience I feel like those are the two main reasons you read and hear about more Glock KB's than other manufacturers. I don't think that Glocks have a higher statistical probablilty to KB than other makes.

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It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener.

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opey99

Love my model 19

and the police in Portland, OR are issured glocks

I have heard of others saying they don't like the way the glocks feel, and I can understand that, but it works for my hands just fine.

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spook75

I just hate how Glocks tend to eject spent shells in a different direction everytime you fire. Man, that bothers me.

Lebell

Not the .45 anymore...


http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=49385

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Exodus

I have had my Glock 17 for about 2 years now. Its by far the best hand gun I've fired. My experience in handguns are a little limited though. Ive shot the Glock 17, 17C, 22, 26, Beretta 92FS, 1911 Single Stack, 1911 Double Stack, a S&W compact .44mag, and the Star. By far the glock is the most reliable.
I have never had a glock misfire. Where Ive at least seen every other one of those weapons misfire, or jam.
It seems that the safety systems on the Glock are not cared for too very much. Thats understandable. Having an external safety is a nice feature on most handguns. But the Glock is, from what Ive read, the only weapon that will not fire when dropped on the muzzle. Because the firing pin is in limbo until you actually squeeze the trigger this is impossible. Ive seen a 1911 dropped on the muzzle and fire. That kinda disturbs me. Not that I plan on dropping my weapons, but its nice to know that the only way its going of is if I pull the trigger.

Just my 2 cents.

NeverBorn

I like glocks..fuckers are practically indistructable..

Exodus

I've heard people equate them to Kalashnikov when it comes to durability. That to me is something to hold in high regard.

SatanLvsU2

Shoot one of these and you will never go back.



Glocks are alright for their intended purpose. But when considering a purchase of something that is meant to have hot lead coming out of it at 1100FPS I tend not to go for "cheap".

I've also never had a jam out of my either of my P7s. They are also considered one of the safest guns available. You have to be holding it properly for it to fire. Let go and it's safe again.

SatanLvsU2

Wanna see a pisol following? Check out the forums on www.parkcitiestactical.com and you will know the real meaning of "love of a gun". The P7 has people talking more then any other pistol I've ever seen. They have forums for all the HK guns available, and you will notice the P7 section is 10x bigger then any other section.

123dsa

Why I don't like Glocks:
-They're ugly (imo)
-Trigger safety
-Need to pull the trigger to disassemble
-.45 GAP (what's wrong with the .45 ACP?)
-They're ugly.

LSD

big_johnson

Yes, i must agree with you. glocks are awful,terrible things with just the cruddiest safety features,there very inaccurate, the triggers are terrible,ect..........that must be why OVER 80% OF OUR NATIONS LAW ENFORCMENT OFFICERS,LOCAL PD'S,SHERIFFS,CIA,FBI,ECT issue GLOCKs as there deparments PRIMARY WEAPONS, including to most of the secret service......

they have to just be terrible.


in reading this thread, i also noticed someone posted from another web page in regards to glock's that KB!.....

if youll read than completely, youll see that it states that in almost every single case, the KB! was caused due to the shooter using RELOADED OR LEAD AMMO in the glock......a big no-no......ACTUALLY, IF IM NOT MISTAKEN THERE WAS ONLY 1 REPORT OF A KB WITH FACTORY AMMO.


"Which Glock models are affected?

Speir has documented many instances of kB!s, all of them in the Models 20 and 30-something Glock (.40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP). Speir has no (as in zero!) confirmed cases of Glock kB!s in the 9 x 19mm (Models 17, 17L, 18, 19, 26 and 34, although there has been one such reasonably detailed anecdotal report), or the .380 ACP/9 X 17mm (Models 25 and 28). And since the introduction of the Models 30-through-36, there have been incidents of kB!s in the 357 SIG (Models 31, 32 and 33) and the .45 ACP (Models 30 and 36) pistols as well... all with reloaded or remanufactured rounds by most accounts"




i personally own 2 GLOCK 20's, a first and third gen. i have fired apprx. 20,000+ rounds thru the 1st gen, all factory ammo, and have YET to have a problem, with alot of those being either hand loaded JHP or JFN , some to around 1750+ FPS

big_johnson

Yes, i must agree with you. glocks are awful,terrible things with just the cruddiest safety features,there very inaccurate, the triggers are terrible,ect..........that must be why OVER 80% OF OUR NATIONS LAW ENFORCMENT OFFICERS,LOCAL PD'S,SHERIFFS,CIA,FBI,ECT issue GLOCKs as there deparments PRIMARY WEAPONS, including to most of the secret service......

they have to just be terrible.


in reading this thread, i also noticed someone posted from another web page in regards to glock's that KB!.....

if youll read than completely, youll see that it states that in almost every single case, the KB! was caused due to the shooter using RELOADED OR LEAD AMMO in the glock......a big no-no......ACTUALLY, IF IM NOT MISTAKEN THERE WAS ONLY 1 REPORT OF A KB WITH FACTORY AMMO.


"Which Glock models are affected?

Speir has documented many instances of kB!s, all of them in the Models 20 and 30-something Glock (.40 S&W, 10mm and .45 ACP). Speir has no (as in zero!) confirmed cases of Glock kB!s in the 9 x 19mm (Models 17, 17L, 18, 19, 26 and 34, although there has been one such reasonably detailed anecdotal report), or the .380 ACP/9 X 17mm (Models 25 and 28). And since the introduction of the Models 30-through-36, there have been incidents of kB!s in the 357 SIG (Models 31, 32 and 33) and the .45 ACP (Models 30 and 36) pistols as well... all with reloaded or remanufactured rounds by most accounts"




i personally own 2 GLOCK 20's, a first and third gen. i have fired apprx. 20,000+ rounds thru the 1st gen, all factory ammo, and have YET to have a problem, with alot of those being either hand loaded JHP or JFN , some to around 1750+ FPS for hunting. i have neber even had to replace a single part in the gun, and it is still as accurate now as it was brand new. i have killed MANY white tail and black tail deer with it, bear and one big ticked off mountain lion. as a gun dealer and a cert. GLOCK armorer, iv e had the distinct pleasure of speaking with GLOCK on several occasions, and talking in length to there main 'smith about glock KB'S! who has also stated for the record that 99.9.9% of the GLOCK KB's hes seen over the years are BVECAUSE THE OWNER SHOT EITHER RELOADS OR LEAD thru the gun.

dont be to hard 0n the glock guys. over 80% of our nations law enforcment cant be wrong.....lol

NewBonk

I think Glocks are good as a 'first gun' for a newbie - they are nearly indestructible, fire when dirty and easy to dissemble.

The down side of course is a newbie probably should have an external safety.

Kurtz

Glocks are like Honda Civics. Reliable, affordable, and subtle. There's nothing really wrong with Glocks (with a handful of bizzare exceptions), but you still don't brag about owning one. You can brag about your USP or your P-7 or your 1911 or BHP all day long, you don't brag about Glocks. That's why you don't hear as much talk, there really isn't pride of ownership. No shame, but no pride.

Snakedance

I am one of those Glock fans and have 3 of them. Its not as accurate as my Sigs, but it didnt cost as much either. I carry a Glock. The trigger safety is not an issue as far as I am concerned, if my finger on the trigger its only because I am pulling the trigger and plan on the gun firing. The trigger could be a little smoother I agree. The concept of a "safety" on a gun is an oxymoron in my opinion. I have never heard anyone complaining about the lack of a safety on a revolver so the concept that the Glock only fires when you pull the trigger is moot argument to me. My vision of the Glock is a ugly flat black revolver (with 15 rounds). Comparing a Glock to the beauty of Sig is like comparing an AR-15 to a Weatherby Mark V. The Glock was designed to be run over by a tank, and still fire a full clip underwater. It was never designed for beauty. If I were to be sent off to war I would rather have a Glock than the standard Beretta 92, which I own and love the looks of compared to most any pistol.

I have rambled enough. Gun safety and training is the answer. The real choice of pistol is much like the titty board. Do you like blondes, brunettes or redheads? Those like all pistols can all be unsafe in the wrong hands and cause catastrophic misfires if you arent careful.

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Moonduck

Some good analogies here. The Glock is rather like the ubiquitous Honda civic. I also like the "flat revolver" concept. I personally find active safeties to be irritating and pointless. Passive safeties are so great as to a total necessity, but an active safety is admitting that you are not really safe enough with the gun on your own, or that the design is not safe enough to stand without the active safety. I just don't like em.

(I own exactly handguns that have active safeties, and two are just decocking levers that can be turned fully downward and will stay in that position, a la S&W auto. The third is not safe enough to stand without the safety, but I like it anyway, and wouldn't give the lil Buckmark up for anything)

Then again, I was raised with a revolver in my hand, and did not own, and had never fired, an auto-loader until I was in my mid-20's. I have a wheelgunner's mindset when it comes to guns, and that is "Keep your finger off the trigger, and you'll be just fine". Gun-handling 101, in other words.

glock20

I think I've heard all the anti-Glock arguments.

It's ugly: Yup. It's a tool. It's not designed to be pretty. It's designed to poke holes in things.

They blow up: They blow up with bad handloads. So will any gun.

They won't shoot lead: Not entirely true. I've put probably 100# of wheelweights through my Glock 30 with no problems, as much as 400 rds. at a session. That's hard lead at slow 45acp velocities, but I know someone who uses lead 9mm and it works for him, too. It probably wouldn't go 50000 rounds without cleaning or whatever they claim in testing, but if I ever get tired of cleaning my guns, I'll sell 'em and go buy a Nintendo or something.

It doesn't fit my hand: Can't argue with that. If it doesn't feel right it your hand, get something else.

It points too high (usually compared to a 1911): 1911's point low. The 1911 grip was changed in the early days, because soldiers accustomed to revolvers didn't like the way it pointed. And it still pointed low. Glock has a closer grip angle to a revolver. Works for me, 'cause the only other gun I carry is a revolver.

Plastic is for toys: It's still a real gun. Personally, I like shooting with a plastic frame, because it seems to absorb some of the recoil. I don't get the smack in my hand like I do with a lot of steel frame guns.

The big ones:

Trigger sucks: There are other triggers available. I have the stock 5.5# trigger in my G30 (carry gun), and it seemed to get better with use. My G20 had the godawful NY trigger. I replaced it with a trigger that feels like (I don't have a guage) about 3 or 4 pounds without so much stacking. The G17 I used to have had a nice even aftermarket trigger like a Sig on single action, only a little longer. Some of the IPSC guys I know have 2# or less triggers.

No external safety: I think if there is any reason why a law enforcement agency wouldn't approve a Glock, this would be it. However, safety is in the shooter. It's been said guns don't kill people, people kill people, and that applies to deaths and injuries from negligent discharges as well. Very rarely have I heard of an injury involving an accidental discharge in which someone didn't break one of the rules of gun safety.

No one should rely on a heavy trigger pull, external safety or magazine disconnector safety, for safety.

You have to pull the trigger to field strip it: It kind of reminds me of the procedure in IPSC in which they point the pistol at the berm, and drop the hammer on the empty chamber after a course of fire to be sure the pistol is unloaded before reholstering or bagging. All I can say about that argument is be sure it's unloaded and point it in a safe place. I have to admit, I'm in the habit of checking twice before I drop the striker on my Glock to field strip.

In short, every gun has it's advantages and disadvantages. The Glock is no exception. Shooters who claim ANY gun is inherently bad are wrong. Unless they're talking about a Hi-point or something. If someone has one that works tell me how you did it. I've seen one of those in action with factory ammo, and the only thing it would have been good for is whacking someone over the head with. Just make sure it's unloaded first.

You really can't go wrong with Glocks, Berettas, Sigs, HKs, 1911s, Walthers, Kel-Tecs, revolvers, just about anything that shoots, as long as it's quality, fits your budget, your hand and whatever task you have in store.

I really like my big Ruger revolvers, my little hammerless Smith Airlite, my Glocks, because they work for ME. If you like something else, great, just don't knock my Glock.


(just my $.02 worth.)

Big Cholla

Glocks are designed the way they are to meet the purchase specifications of the Austrian Army a few years ago. Then the US Police management found them to be the perfect answer to minimumizing the amount of hours of training required for their officers to transition from revolvers to auto-loaders. Glocks will fire (drop the firing pin) a little further out of battery than any other manufacturer's auto-loader. This is only a problem if the chamber is dirty and something is preventing the cartridge from being fully chambered. A common cause of this is the residue from shooting un-jacketed lead bullets. Any cartridge that is fired while not fully chambered will burst out the rear of the brass. All steel handguns handle this occurance best, aluminum framed handguns next best and polymer framed handguns the least best.

Glocks are reliable, safe and fairly accurate if kept clean, handled within the Four Basic Rules of Safe Gunhandling and fed only cartridges loaded with jacketed bullets. There are many aftemarket parts available for your personal customization of yours.

There are many people shooting lead bullets thru their Glocks with total reliability, but they know how to clean the barrels and do it frequently. All firearms are just tools and need to be maintained properly. I have been present when a Glock had a "kB", a S&W auto split its barrel, a Colt Govt. Model 1911 spit half of its barrel out the muzzle and a Sig 220 broke an extractor. Shoot any of them enough and something will happen or break.

I am a master armorer for Glocks, S & W revolvers & autos, Colt 1911s and Sig Sauers. I carry a S & W Model 4006 on duty because that is what my agency dictates. I would carry my Sig Model 220 if allowed. I don't feel in any danger from carrying the S & W and wouldn't either if we were told to carry Glocks.

arawn

I owned a 17 many years back, first pistol I bought. I had not a single complaint about it. The AK analogy, while not perfect (what analogy is?) is fairly accurate. Glock makes nice pistols. They're not for everyone, but no firearm is. Hey, the liberal media might have us believe that NO firearm is Right for anyone. (Sorry, a dig at the media AND a play on words - I coundn't resist).

I replaced my 17 with a USP in 9mm. While I agree that the plastic triggerleads to unpleasant sponginess, and aluminum replacement fixed that quite nicely and I love the USP's safety/firecontrol. Not to mention the experience touched off my decade long love affair with HK.

I still respect Glocks. Were it not for the fact that I shoot 1911's better than I shoot any other pistol, I'd have bought a 30, because they are a blast to shoot.

Speaking of Sigs (see thread starter) and 1911s, I think I need a Sig GSR.


arawn

longbough

I used to hate Glocks - it was basically an esthetic issue. Then I took a 4 day defensive pistol course with a brand new Glock 23. Right out of the box this weapon performed without a single malfunction through 4 days of hard use. In that time it was racked hard, thrown in the dirt and magazines were tossed on the ground when practicing emergency reloads. Every time it shot without a problem. As much as I love my other guns (I own HK, S&W, Browning, etc...) I am a firm believer in the simplicity and reliability of Gaston Glock's design.
Sure, the trigger could be better but it isn't awful. It's simple to use and has never failed to go "bang."
Esthetics don't amount to anything if it doesn't go "bang" every time...

cd45

Had a model 22 for about a year. Sold it and bought a 1911. The Glock never jammed, was accurate after I replaced the sights with Novaks. It just never felt right to me. I pick up a 1911, look at the target, pull the gun up into eye line, the sight are aligned, centered and level, all I have to do is pull the trigger. The only other gun that does this for me is the Star Megastar. The Glocks are well made guns, just not for me.