Moonduck

"Yes, I would argue that the bullet that keeps on going would do more damage, because It would make a bigger hole. The bigger hole would mean more damage. Basic Physics can tell you that the energy being "dumped" from a handgun round is very little, around that of being punched really hard. It is my personal belief that big wound channels are the most important factor in stopping a human target."

The important distinction is not how much energy is being dumped, it is that the bullet that dumps all of its' available energy is performing better than one that does not. Now if said round dumps too early and under-penetrates as a result, it underperforms. This is why you do not use light grain loads when hunting boar, for example.

I can see why you would choose to use the article to support your point, though there are some overall concerns that are not touched on. We are not discussing wildly different rounds here, nor are we discussing rounds with overmuch ability to penetrate. Neither the 9mm nor the .40 are punchers. nor is there a significant difference in bore size. Once is 0.36 and the 0.40, producing a difference of 0.04, biologically insignificant. The loads perform similarly as well, having only moderate differences in FPS and grain weights that are not incompatible.

9mm in 115gr has a Muzzle FPS of about 1225 and Energy at that point is 330 or so. 50yd loses about 9%. 9mm in 147gr has a Muzzle FPS of about 990 and energy of 320ft/lbs, with about a 6% fall-off at 50yds. 140gr .40S&W has a muzzle FPS of 1155 and 415ft/lbs, with a whopping 20% fall-off in energy at 50yds. 180gr .40S&W is doing 990fps at the muzzle with 390ft/lbs, and has a bit more than 10% fall-off at 50yds.

(Stats from Winchester and looking at Ball in each grain load when possible)

The point to that is that the rounds are very, very close in terminal performance. I defy anyone to show that a 0.04" increase in diameter is going to affect performance in a significant manner in the current application.

As to the study, the only mention I find of Glasers is an anecdotal bit from Fackler. Fackler is, in fact, footnoted quite a bit in this study. He has always been on the side of large bullets.

Some interesting lines from the article...

"Further, it appears that many people are predisposed to fall down when shot. This phenomenon is independent of caliber, bullet, or hit location, and is beyond the control of the shooter. It can only be proven in the act, not predicted. It requires only two factors to be effected: a shot and cognition of being shot by the target. Lacking either one, people are not at all predisposed to fall down and don't. Given this predisposition, the choice of caliber and bullet is essentially irrelevant."

"Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. "

Reading that study, I took away a few items that seemed to be the lessons of the piece.

1) Handguns suck. Use a rifle.
2) Caliber choice is less important than shot placement.
3) Load choice is less important than shot placement.
4) It's all about shot placement, still.
5) When in doubt, choose the bigger gun.

I don't disagree with any of these, but it does not invalidate any of the basic premises I've put forth. The fact that the average handgun round drops as much energy as a baseball argues more in favor of my point. When you have such little energy to impart, every little bit helps. The baseball, 1lb weight dropped from 1ft, and cup of coffe analogies are terribly flawed though. No personally carried non-explosive weapon puts out that much energy when it is measured in such a non-relevant fashion. Guns, knives, swords, etc are all tools designed to concentrate a limited amount of energy in both time and space, inflicting far greater effect than the energy would indiciates simply by making it all hit at once and in a small area.

As an aside, when I carry, it is not light grain loads.

nottwood

Man it comes down to what you enjoy to shoot. Go to a good dealer he will let you test some calibers..go with what feels good.

Kurtz

Hey, If you check earlier in the thread, I said the exact same think about the 9 and 40 being exceedingly similar. I reread your post, and realized that I just wasn't getting what you were saying. My bad.

DelayedReaction

To get back to the original poster, I suggest you spend a day (or a week) at the range testing out as many different calibers as you see fit. Using a similar platform (like a Glock) between calibers will also help you.

More important than what caliber you use is what gun you use. Find a pistol that fits your hand properly and you feel comfortable shooting. For me that's a 1911 with Hogue wraparound soft grips. I'm still working on buying it, but the fit in my hand was absolutely amazing. That the 45ACP is a proven round with nearly a century of use is a secondary, but appreciable, addition.

__________________
If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

Big Cholla

The old saw is; "Why do you carry a .45 acp?" answer, "Because there isn't a .50 acp". Well, there is a .50 S&W now if that is what floats your boat. But, the point has been made several times in this thread that what ever caliber you choose, YOU must be able to shoot it accurately. What has not been emphasized is that because most handguns are weak energy deliverers as compared to rifle and shotguns, the way to make up for that is several followup shots to the center of mass. Those shots must be accurate and quick. Also, BGs come at you more than just one at a time. Controllability, quickness and accuracy of the subsequent shots to the initial shot are musts. Find the handgun that you KNOW that you can do just that and get the best ammo available for it. Don't get lost in the quibble about caliber vs. caliber.

BigJ11

I had to throw my two cents worth in and I would definately say the choice is dependant on your person needs and what works for you. Go to a gun store with an indoor range to try each of them out. I personally prefer a .45 over a 9mm. If you are just learning to shoot or do not like the recoil from a heavier weapon then go with a 10mm or a .40 (damn near the same thing). Sig makes a nice .40 that you can pick up a barrel to easily switch out to a .357 Sig round. I love that idea. Do some research and have fun testing everything they have to offer.

__________________
One Shot One Kill

daswig

9mm, no doubt. Ammo's cheap (you should be able to find new commercial production for $100/K), there are tons of choices, higher capacity, less recoil, et cetera ad infinitum.

I never cared for the .40. If 9mm isn't enough gun for you, go with the .45. Either 9mm or .45, one or the other, IMHO. No others come close.

nospam

My brothers got a Glock 40 cal (I think it's a Glock 22). I enjoy shooting it, but for me, a 9mm does the trick.

Jerron36

From everything I have read over the years, carry the biggest gun that you are the most comfortable with and you can handle the best. Having a gun is better then having no gun. Is some calibers better then others? Yes, depending on the application. Is there a "best" caliber? Depends on who you ask...

Case in point. I carry a Springfild Mico (45 ACP in a 3" barrel) and I am a big guy with lots of years of shooting experience, I can handle this gun. A smaller guy/girl that has not shoot alot might want to think twice, because it is a good possibility is that they can not handle that gun.

So agian my point: carry the biggest gun that you are the most comfortable with and you can handle the best.

Suave

Have someone custom make you a 5.56mm hangun from a rifle like in Fallout so everyone will shut the hell up. :P

Jerron36

Both would be ok...

kel

9MM? .40? My life depends on this?
Is .45 an option?

__________________
"It better be funny"

macemurfy

ok first, a rifle for home defense? seriously you have to be kidding me. and a handgun of any caliber is second best, at best. shotguns are the best home defense weapon.

having said that, i'd go for the .40 cal any day. the only major downsides are the recoil, the mag capacity, and the (supposed) price differences in ammo and the actual piece. i own a beretta model 96, and its never done me any wrong as far as any of those factors. i dont need 15 rounds to bring someone down if need be, and for the love of God, if you do need 15, think about another way to spend your money. as far as recoil, its a minor issue, IMO. price varies upon state, AND where you buy it. i live in the south so luckily, we have gun shows. i got 200 rounds of .40 S&W 165GR JHP for 20 bucks. anyone takes more than 2 of those and they deserve to break into my house.


but back to this rifle thing real quick, 4 AM, youre asleep. you hear something, you grab your trusty remington and head down the hallway with all 3 feet of it in front of you... turn around quickly, enter a room tactically, or shoot the perp from "the hip". have fun with that.

but anyway, go to Wal-Mart and buy a shotgun for 200 bucks, save yourself some money and you probably wont miss either.



oh BTW. total necropost, but i had to say it lol

KirStang

Halloween was 3 days ago. No zombies allowed.

Plan9

Braaaaiiinnnzzz... braiiiinnzz...

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

longbough

I'm a physician working in a field where I've seen many gunshot injuries over the past 3 years. In my experience there's a vast difference in what various handgun calibers deliver. The first thing that ever surprised me was how poorly a 9mm round is. Patients of mine hit by 9mm often have unfragmented rounds pass through or tunnel through muscle tissue. .45 or .40 tends to cause more dramatic bone and tissue damage and the rounds were more frequently effective in stopping their subject. More of my patients walked away after getting hit by 9mm (or .38) than if they were hit by .45 or .40.

I don't think 9mm is a "bad" round. Just about any firearm caliber is effective with proper shot placement and there's no substitute for training. If I need to rely in 9mm I'd load up on hydra-shoks or the equivalent. In fact that's what I carry in my HK P7M8. But if I had to trust my life to a handgun I'd rely more on my .40 Glock 23 or my .45 Commander than my 9mm handguns.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Fire

The 9mm is much cheaper to buy ammo for, and therefore cheaper to practice with- and shot placement trumps caliber any day- beyond that shoot both and pick what you like best..... for me it was the 9mm, as I fee that this will be adequate to support my 12 gauge and assorted .30 cal or larger rifles.....

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

MSD

You should do this regardless of what caliber you carry. From other gun forums (and not the paranoid ARFCOM jackasses) the consensus Ranger SXTs (the evil cop-killer black talons that are now sold under a different name and marked with the non-legally-binding phrase "Law Enforcement Only") chamber reliably, shoot reliably, and expand reliably even after penetrating denim or a heavy jacket.




Also, this

Attached Images

Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg (50.9 KB, 70 views)

smibbity

Like many of you, I went round and round in my head about whether to go 9mm or .40 for my carry caliber. At the range, I always love seeing the larger holes the .40 makes... call me a simpleton.

The main argument I hear for choosing 9mm is...

"Shot placement is everything. The caliber doesn't matter, where you put it does."

Well, I think that argument does as much to defeat choosing 9mm as it may help it. Very, very few of us are going to get enough training and/or practice to be sure that our shot placement will be spot on. In fact, the statistic for *cops* is 20% accuracy or less. So since we know that placement is important but not something we can 100% count on, why not choose the largest caliber you can handle to cause mondo damage on the shots you *can* connect?

This is precisely why I chose the .40 cal round. Yes it's more expensive. My life is worth it. Besides, I can drop a 9mm conversion barrell in my G23, buy a couple 9mm mags, and start shooting all I want. I'll still carry .40 for daily carry. You can't go up to .40 from a G17/19.

Walt

Generally speaking, cops don't practice nearly as much as they should and so usually cant shoot for shit. It has been my experience that the vast majority of police only fire about 40 rounds a year for their idiot-proof annual qual.

-------

IMO, the 9 vs. 40 debate is a bit of an academic circle-jerk. There is no real difference between the two. Both rounds launch a big bullet really fast. In the real world, both rounds inflict about the same amount of damage. For what its worth, the nice big holes you're seeing at the range are a whopping 0.005" (five thousandths of an inch) larger in diameter than a 9mm. Shot placement aside, I would suggest that the biggest factor when it comes to winning a fight is using quality ammunition that expands like it should, not the caliber of your pistol.

Regardless, it sounds like you got yourself a nice gun. Enjoy.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

longbough

Not another 9mm vs. .40 or .45 debate.
I'll cut to the chase - after years of seeing patients with gun shot wounds of different calibres I will say that I prefer .40 or .45 for personal defense. There is a dramatic difference between the nature of the wounds.

I suppose you can make the case with 9mm hydra-shok or other "safety ammo" (I haven't treated many of those wounds to my recollection) and, in truth, any calibre can kill. I just prefer to put my faith in a .45 - and that much more in .45 hydra-shoks.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

ChrisJericho

Longbough, I am curious, do most wounds you see with 9mm result from hollowpoints or FMJ's? I always wondered if the bad guys/ganstas just grab anything off the shelf or if they know enough to get non-target ammunition.

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

mrmacq

and then
like a dummy
i actually read this thread
little did i realize
it were a yank thread
(problem?)

holy crap
U.S. Guns Arming Mexican Drug Gangs; Second Amendment to Blame?
Officials: More Than 90 Percent of Weapons Used by Mexico's Drug Gangs Come From the U.S.
U.S. Guns Arming Mexican Drug Gangs; Second Amendment to Blame? - ABC News

can you please stop exporting this paranoia?

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

KirStang

How about
you actually
go
behind the statistics
and realize
that the 90% figure
actually
comes from the 90% of traceable guns.

Besides, your
maple syrup
and hockey
aren't
getting harmed
by
our love
for guns
is it?

mrmacq

umm
yes it is
its a fact that whatever happens down there
oozes beyond its borders

mexico being one
yet nay not your fault
so tell me dude
where do you think they come from
cant be the evil empire
supposedly you defeated them
(supposedly they were evil)
rest of the civilised world has controls on dissemination of assault weapons
yet you guys use them for hunting dear
sumthin bout god givin right
and now to peak your curiosity

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

now realise this will not go well
if you dont have a basic understanding of written english
ya game?

ohh
and the traceable thingy
hello?
what do you think their basing it on?
youre arguing nothing
but thanx just the same

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

KirStang

LMAO.

Wow, so you think Yugoslavia, Russia, Romania (which can't even control where their women go--Hello Human Trafficking!) have better controls on their weaponry than the United States?

Jesus dude. Go read a book. Then come back.

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 AM ----------

Oh hey. Citation!

Counting Mexico’s Guns | FactCheck.org

You're talkin about millions of fully auto AKs for the taking from S. America, like Colombia, Venezuela or other countries (and only POS single shots from the US). Which one do you think Cartels are buying from?

mrmacq

so where to start with this arrogance?
so superior eh?
this might be fun
"human trafficking in america"

"To report an instance of suspected trafficking, please call the HOTLINE: 1.888.3737.888

2007 U.S. Department of State Trafficking in Persons Report

Attorney General’s Annual Report to Congress on U.S. Government Activities to Combat Trafficking in Persons Fiscal Year 2006 (May 2007)

2006 US Department of State Human Rights Report (Released March 2007) - Includes reporting on human trafficking

Assessment of U.S. Government Efforts to Combat Trafficking in Persons September 2006 (Multi-Department Report)

Report on Activities to Combat Human Trafficking: Fiscal Years 2001 - 2005 (Department of Justice)

The United States of America is principally a transit and destination country for trafficking in persons. It is estimated that 14,500 to 17,500 people, primarily women and children, are trafficked to the U.S. annually. .....
not sure why you needed to change the subject

but what the hell
(oh glorious yank you)

back on track

to buy a gun in texas
- No Waiting Period
- No Registration or Transfer of Registration
- NFA OK
- FTF OK (Unless NFA)
- No Restricted Firearms or Magazine Capacities (NFA Rules Apply)

How to Buy a Gun in Texas - Handgun, Shotgun, or Rifle

Handguns
•Permit to purchase handgun? No.

•Registration of handguns? No.

•Licensing of owners of handguns? No.

No state license is required to possess a rifle, shotgun or handgun.

wish to hear the civilised worlds thoughts on the matter?
or will ya just go with
"we know best"

as you yanks are prone to do?

but back at that morsel i dangled

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

now realise this will not go well
if you dont have a basic understanding of written english"

so
no takers?
cause ya know ya got it wrong?

good for you dude

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

KirStang

Apparently a canuck has a better grasp of our constitution than the Supreme Court.

And you totally ignored the evidence I showed you regarding the 90%.

And NFA is a pain in the ass to maneuver. Have you ever bought a gun in the US? A pistol? A Rifle? Filled out a 4473? Participated in a background check?

No?

Then shut the hell up and get back in your lane.

Clue: 4473 = De facto registration.

Oh and human Trafficking

I was talking about country of origin, not destination country. And this is regarding AKs and other 'OMG EVIL WEAPONS' that you love to talk about.

Tell me, how does the Yugoslavian, Romanian and Russian export controls regarding firearms work? Those three countries produce a lot of small arms.

And your crappy argument "anything that bleeds beyond the borders" meaning that violence in Mexico somehow affects Canada is hilarious. Nevermind the two countries are at opposite borders.

mrmacq

just saw this dude
(ya got to stop posting as im posting)
Oh hey. Citation!

Counting Mexico’s Guns | FactCheck.org

You're talkin about millions of fully auto AKs for the taking from S. America, like Colombia, Venezuela or other countries (and only POS single shots from the US). Which one do you think Cartels are buying from?


Quote:
Without A "Trace"
In a joint statement presented to the Senate Judiciary Committee’s Subcommittee on Crimes and Drugs, ATF Assistant Director for Field Operations William Hoover and Anthony Placido, assistant administrator of intelligence with the Drug Enforcement Administration, clarified that the 90 percent figure is true of guns that were submitted and could be traced:
Hoover and Placido, March 17, 2009: Firearms are routinely being transported from the U.S. into Mexico in violation of both U.S. and Mexican law. In fact, according to ATF’s National Tracing Center, 90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S.
And Mexico recovers a lot more guns than it submits to the U.S. In December 2008, Mexican Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora put the number of recovered crime weapons in the country over the past two years at nearly 29,000, according to USA Today. And figures given by ATF make clear that the agency doesn’t trace nearly all of those.
According to ATF, Mexico submitted 7,743 firearms for tracing in fiscal year 2008 (which ended Oct. 1) and 3,312 guns in fiscal 2007. That adds up to a fraction of the two-year total given by Mexico’s attorney general. He may be referring to a slightly different 24-month period, but that can’t account for more than a part of the discrepancy. The number is growing, and already this year, Mexico has submitted more than 7,500 guns for tracing, according to ATF. But even if all those guns are added in, the total submitted for tracing since the start of fiscal 2007 doesn’t come close to the 29,000 figure that Mexico says it has recovered.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by KirStang; 12-11-2010 at 09:16 PM..

ya really think south america is going to give up weapons?
(like youre hoping iraq will?)
shake your head
single shots from america?
hah ha
silly bugger
and here i thought you were a gun nut
Full-Auto Conversion Plans For Converting Many Firearms to Full Auto

and the rest of it agreed with me
(ya got to find a better way of debating
this aint working for ya)

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

KirStang

Actually, your last portion--that single shots are silly--demonstrates the extent of your ignorance. You do know that slam-fires, lack of reset, and negligent discharges are a real threat to toying with fire control mechs right? Not to mention, if you let off a full auto burst at a range, without paperwork, the ATF can pretty much arrest you on the spot.

Sir, your ignorance is astounding. Please enlighten yourself.

mrmacq

dude
you yanks are confused as to what it actually says
no surprise there
what with the lefties righties keeping you in the dark
again
care to tackle it?
ive asked numerous times

now as for the "evidence I showed you regarding the 90%"
you need to reread
cause it aint saying what you proclaim
(matter of fact it says quite the opposite)

case in point
"And your crappy argument "anything that bleeds beyond the borders" meaning that violence in Mexico somehow affects Canada is hilarious"
pretty sure that wasnt what i was saying
but go for it dude
you appear to think youre on a roll

how i love talking to "superior than thou"
unthinking yanks
a chuckle a minute

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

KirStang

Ahem. Here it is. Bolded, italicized and underlined for your edification.

Re: 2nd Amendment.

Go read Heller v. District of Columbia (or some shit.)

mrmacq

speaking of ignorance
"You're talkin about millions of fully auto AKs for the taking from S. America, like Colombia, Venezuela or other countries (and only POS single shots from the US). Which one do you think Cartels are buying from?


bummer eh?
care to stick with the subjects?
anytime soon?
or will you continue ducking?
fabricating
to a lowly canuck?
your choice you great deluded american you
and now to let the cat out of the bag
(just cause)
this is what i learnt on
fabrique national 7.62 - Google Search
fabrique national 7.62

(care to use those googlinging fingers?)
or just continue to spew?
crap
(oh and the smg)
Submachine gun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
pretty cool piece of equipment for the seventies
course that was before your time

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

KirStang

Listen. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

Here in the United States, automatic weapons are regulated by the NFA and are termed 'class III' weapons. There's a lengthy ATF approval process for them, and since new automatic weapons were no longer allowed in 1986, all automatic weapons in the U.S. cost about $15,000.

So, compare that with weapons obtained from anywhere else (55,000,000 AKs in circulation world wide).

And I trained on one of these.


So quit with your roachboy like logic and typing.

---------- Post added at 02:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 AM ----------

And:

Your 90% citation is an often misused cite. That was my original point. I can care less if you were Canadian special forces.

mrmacq

oh i heard what you said
though i still doubt you understood what it actually means

"But even if all those guns are added in, the total submitted for tracing since the start of fiscal 2007 doesn’t come close to the 29,000 figure that Mexico says it has recovered.


meaning
theres more than what you thought you were responsible for
see youre looking at it hoping you aint responsible
its that damn english language
once again thats plaguing you
allow me to compress for you

the total submitted
(that havent been determined yet)
operative words here

doesnt come close to
the 29000

so anytime you wish to wake up
no probs there dude
we shant hold it against you
much

Re: 2nd Amendment.

Go read [I]Heller v. District of Columbia

ya mean this one?
Facts
Handgun possession is banned under District of Columbia (D) law. The law prohibits the registration of handguns and makes it a crime to carry an unregistered firearm. Furthermore all lawfully owned firearms must be kept unloaded and dissembled or bound by a trigger lock unless they are being used for lawful recreational activities or located in a place of business.

Dick Heller (P) is a special police officer in the District of Columbia. The District refused Heller’s application to register a handgun he wished to keep in his home. Heller filed this lawsuit in the Federal District Court for the District of Columbia on Second Amendment grounds. Heller sought an injunction against enforcement of the bar on handgun registration, the licensing requirement prohibiting the carrying of a firearm in the home without a license, and the trigger-lock requirement insofar as it prohibits the use of functional firearms within the home.

The District Court dismissed Heller’s complaint.

would you please stop arguing my side?

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

KirStang

You having fun there? Completely misinterpreting what i'm writing with a straight face?

You conveniently exclude the term 'FOR TRACING'
Of course, your masterful grasp of the English Language has apparently gotten you very far in life.

Re Heller:

You're reading Heller II. (A District [LOW] Court opinion)

Check out Heller I

District of Columbia v. Heller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And: What the Supreme Court of the United States said: The prefatory clause did not modify the operative clause--that is, the right to bear arms is the operative clause. (or something like that. Anyway, the interpretation was that the Right to Keep and Bear Arms trumped the 'Militia' part.)

Read the whole thing here: DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER

Anyway, I'm done. Your ignorance is astounding.

mrmacq

m16 piece of crap
spewing out 5.56
only cause they were lighter to carry
and god knows ya needed all the rounds you were physically capable of dragging

"So quit with your roachboy like logic "
oh hang on
i think ive just been complimented

perhaps you dont understand the outside world?
psst
and keep this a secret
we think you guys nuts
paranoid
and delusional
as to your actual worth

and this is what we go on
"only good injun is a dead injun"
yup
from way back when
problem being
'pears ya havent changed your ways
one iota

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

KirStang

Thank you for reminding me that the Entire Outside World (tm) consists of Canada.

---------- Post added at 02:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 AM ----------

And isn't it ironic that a person who claims superiority in the understanding of the English language can't be bothered to actually punctuate and capitalize?

---------- Post added at 02:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 AM ----------

Oh and one more thing:

I wouldn't have so much problem with you if you weren't so cocksure in your ignorance.

mrmacq

ignorance only comes from those that wish to be ignorant
as in discuss no more
my minds made up
sticking the fingers
upon the middle ear
your choice dude
tho
""A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

in english
has not been sufficiently answered
(though i tried to entice)

oh sure
as whichever has the power down there
interprets
to their liking
those fabulous words
it appears its lost on the public
depending on which side of the fence they sit

now where this came from?
"conveniently exclude the term 'FOR TRACING' "

total submitted for tracing since the start of fiscal 2007 doesn’t come close to the 29,000 figure that Mexico says it has recovered.

oh well
but since i can read ahead

"Thank you for reminding me that the Entire Outside World (tm) consists of Canada.

---------- Post added at 02:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:23 AM ----------

And isn't it ironic that a person who claims superiority in the understanding of the English language can't be bothered to actually punctuate and capitalize?

---------- Post added at 02:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 AM ----------

Oh and one more thing:

I wouldn't have so much problem with you if you weren't so cocksure in your ignorance.

actually dude
i am cocksure in/of my ignorance
tis the reason for relating to brethren of humanity
to try to see their outlook on it all
oh and never claimed anything but
a wish to understand meanings

so does this mean youve sent me to my room?
should i throw a hissy fit now?
or has that been covered?

---------- Post added at 01:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 AM ----------

so fun the first time
felt i had to
the second

"submitted"
as in have done
yours just cant put a finger to it
(perhaps for a reason)
now they all come with serial numbers
could they be the ones you bought then resold?
how many aks in the us dude?
where did they come from?
during the oppression of veitnam
at anytime your boys numbered in the hundreds of thousands
(ie grease a gook?)

and bringing home a souvenir
or two
was commonplace

or where you thinking they were brand spankin new?

so heres a thought
just to make ya think

Mexican drug cartels' newest weapon: Cold War-era grenades made in U.S.
Washington Post ^ | 7/17/2010 | Nick Miroff and William Booth

Posted on July 17, 2010 3:45:37 PM by Qbert

MEXICO CITY -- Grenades made in the United States and sent to Central America during the Cold War have resurfaced as terrifying new weapons in almost weekly attacks by Mexican drug cartels.

Sent a generation ago to battle communist revolutionaries in the jungles of Central America, U.S. grenades are being diverted from dusty old armories and sold to criminal mafias, who are using them to destabilize the Mexican government and terrorize civilians, according to U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials.

The redeployment of U.S.-made grenades by Mexican drug lords underscores the increasingly intertwined nature of the conflict, as President Felipe Calderón sends his soldiers out to confront gangs armed with a deadly combination of brand-new military-style assault rifles purchased in the United States and munitions left over from the Cold War.

Mexican drug cartels' newest weapon: Cold War-era grenades made in U.S.

or not
your choice

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

monkeysugar

As long as you are somewhat staying within the formalities of please and thank you, may I kindly request that you please peruse the following: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...tml#post465806
It really is quite self-explanatory. Thank you so much!

The forum referenced as "Tilted Politics" as referred to in the above-mentioned link can be found here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-politics/

Perhaps
you might find
the self-serving response
which you have posted
to be more congenial
to your pursuits there
as opposed to in this section
where you may come across
...to some...
as being a troll
or flame-bait.
Not that you
would ever be a part
of said behavior. (my apologies:behaviour.)

__________________
I've got the love of my life and a job that I enjoy most of the time. Life is good.