Advice on railed AR-15 models - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ChrisJericho · 01-06-2011, 02:38 AM

OK guys, so I am looking to purchase an AR-15. I know in advance that I will want to attach a light to it since it will be a home defense gun. Down the road I may also want to attach a vertical grip and other accessories to distract others from my lack of skill.

Given this I figured it would be a good idea to buy an AR with a rail system already in place. I did some googling and research and these models popped up often:

DPMS for $746 New DPMS AR15 Tactical Rail & Flip Up Sights AR-15 : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com

Daniel Defense for $960 XV EZ Daniel Defense M4 Carbine AR-15 5.56 NATO : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com

Colt for $1300 Colt 6940 (NEW) : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com

So I'll get to the point. Do you guys think the price difference between these rifles is justified? During my research I didn't come across anything really bad about DPMS. And it seems like a lot of people are willing to pay a lot for Colts just because they're "Mil-Spec." I do realize that the bottom two have twist rates of 1:7 and the DPMS has a 1:9. I plan on shooting 55 grain 5.56 and I as I understand it the 1:9 twist rate is slightly more conducive to 55 grain rounds, but correct me if I am wrong on this or if the difference is negligible.

I can afford any of these rifles however I don't like wasting money just for the name of the side of the gun. I figure if the DPMS is 98% as good as the Colt but because it's $550 less I can buy 2000 rounds of 5.56 (there are places online selling 1000 round boxes for $280), then I would go with the DPMS. Or heck I could even spend that saved money on some more of that "training" stuff.

That being said, I am not into gun collecting. My interest in getting a rifle is purely utilitarian. I only want to have one rifle and in the long run I likely will not remember blowing $500 extra on a Colt if it offers something a little extra in terms of durability than the other two due to it being "Mil-Spec". However if the Mil-spec hype is something that only matters to the 300 pound keyboard warriors then I can live without it.

So if anyone has any input that would be great, or if anyone knows another model I should consider you can give me feedback. Thanks.

KirStang · 01-06-2011, 05:04 AM

I have a daniel defense AR15 on the way. I really think they offer you the best value for the money. That's what I would go with.

IMHO, Colt's overpriced for what they offer.

I would skip the DPMS. While the price point is attractive, they skip over things like M4 Feedramps, chrome-lining the bore (for bore hardness and increased barrel life, plus increased slickness for easier case extraction), properly staking the gas key (improperly staked gas keys can come loose, resulting in the bolt carrier not getting enough gas and failing to cycle properly), M4feedramps (lowered feedramps to help feeding, especially 75grain or even 44gr varmint hollowpoints--this is more needed in a carbine length rifle with shorter dwell time and harsher cycling).

Here's the all famous "chart" as a handy reference for what the 'mil-spec' parts do and why they're included as features.

M4 CHART

I think Rob_S does a better job of explaining the features than I ever will.

=======================================

THAT SAID: I had a Rock River Arms AR ('RRA') which did not have all the 'features' of the chart, and it ran like a spanked monkey. Similarly, I've personally observed Plan 9's RRA which has also been tremendously reliable through thousands of rounds.

I'd spend the extra $200 to get the DD, then spend the extra $350 you saved on a familiarization course.

Hope this helped.

*ETA* Re: 55 gr. Theoretically, 1/9 is a better twist for 55gr, but, I have not seen a noticeable difference shooting 55gr out of my 1/9 or my 1/7 twist barrels. Just the other day I shot 3 touching shots at 50 yards, using 55gr PMC, 1/7 twist barrel and iron sights. Me Personally, I would go for a 1/7 twist as it allows me to shoot things like 75gr Hornady TAP, which is considered an optimum home defense cartridge.

The_Dunedan · 01-06-2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Do you guys think the price difference between these rifles is justified?

Not remotely. The primary difference is in what's stamped on the side.

Quote:

the DPMS is 98% as good as the Colt but because it's $550 less I can buy 2000 rounds of 5.56 (there are places online selling 1000 round boxes for $280), then I would go with the DPMS. Or heck I could even spend that saved money on some more of that "training" stuff.

This. This is truth. Your money is much better spent on training and/or ammo and/or magazines than on a milled pony engraving.

I've sold the DPMS rifles for years and never heard of the first problem with them. While their entry-level "Sportical" rifle does omit certain features (chromed bore, forward assist, dustcover, shell deflector), they are present on the rest of their line, from the "Oracle" on up.

And to be perfectly frank, I've never understood why everybody got so damned hot n' bothered about this "M4 feedramp" issue. I've never seen any benefit to it, and none of my hundreds of DPMS-buying customers have ever reported any issues with any type of ammo or rate of fire. Mostly it seems like a marketing gimmick dreamed up by some asshole at Colt, sold to the DoD to half-justify Colt's keeping the M4 contract (the only contract they still have; everything else is made by FN down in SC), and from there sold to a public that loves the latest "MilSpec" gadget. Maybe it has some utility if you're slingin' 900rpm of full-auto in horrendously dirty -actual- combat conditions, but for 99% of civilian/LE shooters it seems irrelevant. Likewise, chromed bores/chambers help a little with extraction but provide no realistic benefit to any civvy who isn't throwing down tens of thousands of rounds per year. Chroming also degrades accuracy, which is why long-range Varmint/target AR's don't feature it.

Slims · 01-06-2011, 05:37 PM

Don't buy a colt, they are way overpriced and you will be better off spending the money you save on a nice optical sight, light, etc.

There are lots of options for railed fore ends. Daniel Defense makes a lot of good ones, but they will probably not all suite your particular taste.

Larue is a fantastic brand as well and are worth considering, especially with my following suggestion:

You can buy complete upper and lower receivers separately. Only the lower receiver is serial numbered and counts as the 'firearm,' which means the uppers can be sent through the mail with no paperwork. Look online until you find the 'exact' upper you want and then order that separately from the lower. You can buy or build a complete M-4 style lower for less than 200 dollars.

I won't link to any manufacturers directly because it will only get my post deleted, but do browse the internets for a while. You can probably get exactly what you want, without compromising, for less than the colt you were looking at.

Lastly, I do like having the M-4 cuts, but many, many manufacturers offer them and it should be easy to find if you wish to have them. They do add a small degree of reliability to the rifle but it isn't a super big deal. I own rifles with and without them.

Walt · 01-06-2011, 10:38 PM

It is jungle juice Thursday at Casa de Walt. Please forgive the jumbled post:

I agree with Kirstang, Dunedan and Slims. Colt is overpriced. All of the other major AR manufacturers are pretty much equal (and equally good). IIRC, it was Dunedan that explained to me that there are only 3 or 4 different plants in the US that manufacture AR uppers and lowers. All of the major weapons manufacturers receive their forged receivers from these plants and then polish them up, parkerize/phosphate-coat them, stamp their name on them and sell them for whatever they think their brand name is worth. I'm pretty sure that the $230 Wilson Combat receivers are coming out of the same line as the $120 DPMS receivers. Owning receivers from both companies, I can honestly say that I can find absolutely zero difference in fit/finish between the two.

Also, Colt's receiver pins (or whatever you call the guys that lock the upper to the lower) are uniquely sized so that they are slightly bigger than all the other manufacturers. All the other manufacturers run a standard receiver pin size. This means that you can run an LMT, Wilson, Stag, DPMS, etc upper on a Wilson, Stag, DPMS, Double Star, RAA lower with no problems. You can only run a Colt upper on a Colt lower. Definitely something to consider if you plan on running more than one upper on your lower receiver.

ChrisJericho · 01-07-2011, 06:00 AM

Thanks for the info guys.

I'll avoid the Colt altogether.

I did notice however the Daniel Defense warranty is a lifetime one and the DPMS is 3 years. Plus I must admit I do find the DD more aesthetically pleasing.

I noticed on the DD website they claim their guns are "100% Mil-spec." Is this true? I looked on the infamous chart and it appears the only major difference between the DD and the Colt was the handguard.

Also, would the rear fixed sight on the DD get in the way if I installed optics in the future? I would like having BUIS and I am not sure how easy it would be to add/remove the fixed rear sight in an emergency.

KirStang · 01-07-2011, 06:14 AM

AFAIK, the 'heat shields' refer to the stock plastic handguards. IIRC, Colt added double heat shields to their plastic handguards since the shorter carbine length gas system tended to get hotter than the rifle length M16A2. Thus, if you're going with a rail, the heat shields are not a consideration (I could be wrong, but if you're worried about heat build up, when shooting a lot, just wear some gloves).

Re: Fixed Sight. Depends on the optic you want. With a 1x optic like Eotech or Aimpoint, depending on which model and mount, the BUIS is usually out of the way. For example, with a 1/3 cowitness, with the exception of the aimpoint micro series, the optic will usually sit higher up and the BUIS won't get in the way. If you need to utilize the BUIS right away, all you'd need to do is drop your sight picture down in to the BUIS.

I am planning on mounting an Aimpoint micro on a Larue660HK on my DDM4V1. This will give me absolute cowitness. I find that absolute cowitness with a fixed rear BUIS tends to get too 'busy' for me, so I opted to swap out the BUIS for a Magpul MBUS, which folds down and pops up. Also, the Aimpoint micro series has a smaller window, so 1/3rd cowitness with irons will give you a partially obscured sight picture, should you use irons. Hence, my decision to go with absolute.

Pw mm, user: mm

If you want a zoom optic, then you'll have to replace the BUIS with a folding BUIS (or forgo BUIS altogether, which some people do). Maybe there's some optic out there I don't know about, but due to eye relief most people will mount their zoom optic over their folding BUIS, like so:

Short Answer: Rear BUIS's cost $55 (magpul MBUS), so you can also swap that out easily if you don't like the included BUIS, or want to use a zoom optic.

Slims · 01-08-2011, 08:30 AM

To back up Kirstang:

If you purchase a good combat optic with a quick release lever it is a matter of seconds to get your 'broken' optic off and your BUIS up.

If you have a 1 power like an eotech or aimpoint (Kirstang's diagram) you typically do not have to even remove the optic because if it stops working all you have to do is flip up your BUIS and then use your iron sights. If the glass breaks then you just remove that sight as I mentioned above.

If you don't want to get really complicated, I would recommend a fixed front sight with a folding rear and then some sort of quality optic. I always leave my front sight up because I can just look past it when using an optic (magnified or 1x) but it provides a much faster reference if my optic craps out and I just have to flip up my rear sight to get back in business.

ChrisJericho · 06-16-2011, 06:15 AM

Well I bought a daniel defense v3 lightweight and finally got around to taking some pics of it. Haven't shot it yet, hopefully going to take it up to the mountains within the next few weeks.

Oh and I got a aimpoint micro r-1 for $300 which is supposedly a good model that just needs some spraypainting. I ordered a larue lt660 quick detach mount for it per kirstang's recommendations

KirStang · 06-16-2011, 09:41 AM

Haha, I also ended up going with the 660 for my T-1.

You've got an awesome set up, let us know how she runs!

How do you like the pencil barrel? Is that a midlength?

Plan9 · 06-16-2011, 11:23 AM

Please use Photobucket, for Chrissakes. Makin' me go to ImageShack to look at a picture is uncivilized. Some people's kids.

...

Anyway:

Nice stick. Looks like it has some of the goodies on it I mentioned in that ridiculously long masturbatory PM a few months back.

Daniel Defense A1.5 fixed rear iron sight, QD end plate. I'd push that broomstick/flashlight farther forward so you can drive it.

Optic is good. I don't think I'll ever be able to use an optic without a big rectangular window and a 1 MOA red dot, though.

And a rifle isn't a rifle without a sling, homeslice. Get that Emdom/MM Gunslinger strap yet? Get something on this beast.

...

I'm jealous that your first M4 comes from research and not "military training." You got a great blaster.

ChrisJericho · 06-16-2011, 06:23 PM

Kirstang, yes it is a midlength. Well, I'm not sure how to comment on the pencil barrel because I have not shot an AR before so I can't really make any comparisons

I'm sort of glad I got it though because the darn thing already feels heavy enough and additionally I have not seen very many v3 LW's in stock on the market, they seem to be a bit rare.

Plan9, when I view the post the picture is embedded within it, I'm using Firefox so I am not sure why you have to go to imageshack. I did get a sling, I figured I would try out the PIG single point sling from SKD. They didn't have the emdom in stock at the time. I still might get the emdom though. I'm just messing around with the VG right now, I will probably change it like you said and move it further forward. I was contemplating getting the magpul AVG, have you guys tried it?

I made some homemade target stands from tutorials I watched on youtube:

So me and a cousin are going to go to a local national forest and arrange them so we are forced to use cover and move around instead of just standing/sitting stationary at a range.

ChrisJericho · 07-11-2011, 04:57 PM

Well I finally managed to get out and shoot the rifle. I went out to one of the local national forests. Unfortunately the only spot where I could find a clear open area with a backdrop was a marsh area, and there was a buttload of mosquitos/gnats.

I brought 200 rounds of American Eagle .223 with me that I wanted to shoot to test reliability, but only managed to get through 100 rounds before the sheer amount of bugs flying into my mouth/nose made things unbearable.

So here's some pictures, I really have no idea how far away the target was, maybe 50 yards. The log in the middle was where the marsh area was.

This was my first time shooting a rifle and all shots were from a standing position on uneven ground in bushes. I couldn't benchrest on the table because the bushes were too high. /end of excuses

Basically I'm pulling shots to the lower left, probably a result of jerking the trigger. The 5 shot group was the first one of the day. The grouping on the neck area was when I was aiming for the head, and the grouping in the lower left of the body was when I was aiming at the chest. I probably need to work on squeezing the trigger straight to the rear.

I lubed the bolt carrier group pretty well the day before with ballistol and the gun had no malfunctions.

ChrisJericho · 07-11-2011, 05:04 PM

I don't mind getting the rifle dirty or putting it on the ground. To me it's just a tool.

Plan9 · 07-11-2011, 05:40 PM

I'm so proud! *beams*

KirStang · 07-11-2011, 07:09 PM

Nevermind. Reading Comprehension again.

ChrisJericho · 07-12-2011, 02:41 AM

I just put on the aimpoint micro r-1 that I spraypainted with the krylon ultra flat in olive drab. The paint job wasn't perfect but it's good enough for me, I just wanted to make sure I didn't get any paint on the lenses. And I dig the extra $200 I saved versus buying an h-1.

I left the serial number part unpainted in case I ever had to send it in for warranty work. Of course if my red dawn fantasy ever occurred I would paint over the remaining silver area.

Plan9 · 07-12-2011, 06:18 AM

Excellent.

01-06-2011, 02:38 AM	#1 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Advice on railed AR-15 models OK guys, so I am looking to purchase an AR-15. I know in advance that I will want to attach a light to it since it will be a home defense gun. Down the road I may also want to attach a vertical grip and other accessories to distract others from my lack of skill. Given this I figured it would be a good idea to buy an AR with a rail system already in place. I did some googling and research and these models popped up often: DPMS for $746 New DPMS AR15 Tactical Rail & Flip Up Sights AR-15 : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com Daniel Defense for $960 XV EZ Daniel Defense M4 Carbine AR-15 5.56 NATO : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com Colt for $1300 Colt 6940 (NEW) : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com So I'll get to the point. Do you guys think the price difference between these rifles is justified? During my research I didn't come across anything really bad about DPMS. And it seems like a lot of people are willing to pay a lot for Colts just because they're "Mil-Spec." I do realize that the bottom two have twist rates of 1:7 and the DPMS has a 1:9. I plan on shooting 55 grain 5.56 and I as I understand it the 1:9 twist rate is slightly more conducive to 55 grain rounds, but correct me if I am wrong on this or if the difference is negligible. I can afford any of these rifles however I don't like wasting money just for the name of the side of the gun. I figure if the DPMS is 98% as good as the Colt but because it's $550 less I can buy 2000 rounds of 5.56 (there are places online selling 1000 round boxes for $280), then I would go with the DPMS. Or heck I could even spend that saved money on some more of that "training" stuff. That being said, I am not into gun collecting. My interest in getting a rifle is purely utilitarian. I only want to have one rifle and in the long run I likely will not remember blowing $500 extra on a Colt if it offers something a little extra in terms of durability than the other two due to it being "Mil-Spec". However if the Mil-spec hype is something that only matters to the 300 pound keyboard warriors then I can live without it. So if anyone has any input that would be great, or if anyone knows another model I should consider you can give me feedback. Thanks. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-06-2011, 05:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Don't buy a colt, they are way overpriced and you will be better off spending the money you save on a nice optical sight, light, etc. There are lots of options for railed fore ends. Daniel Defense makes a lot of good ones, but they will probably not all suite your particular taste. Larue is a fantastic brand as well and are worth considering, especially with my following suggestion: You can buy complete upper and lower receivers separately. Only the lower receiver is serial numbered and counts as the 'firearm,' which means the uppers can be sent through the mail with no paperwork. Look online until you find the 'exact' upper you want and then order that separately from the lower. You can buy or build a complete M-4 style lower for less than 200 dollars. I won't link to any manufacturers directly because it will only get my post deleted, but do browse the internets for a while. You can probably get exactly what you want, without compromising, for less than the colt you were looking at. Lastly, I do like having the M-4 cuts, but many, many manufacturers offer them and it should be easy to find if you wish to have them. They do add a small degree of reliability to the rifle but it isn't a super big deal. I own rifles with and without them. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

01-06-2011, 10:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
Walt I'm calmer than you are, dude Location: North Carolina	It is jungle juice Thursday at Casa de Walt. Please forgive the jumbled post: I agree with Kirstang, Dunedan and Slims. Colt is overpriced. All of the other major AR manufacturers are pretty much equal (and equally good). IIRC, it was Dunedan that explained to me that there are only 3 or 4 different plants in the US that manufacture AR uppers and lowers. All of the major weapons manufacturers receive their forged receivers from these plants and then polish them up, parkerize/phosphate-coat them, stamp their name on them and sell them for whatever they think their brand name is worth. I'm pretty sure that the $230 Wilson Combat receivers are coming out of the same line as the $120 DPMS receivers. Owning receivers from both companies, I can honestly say that I can find absolutely zero difference in fit/finish between the two. Also, Colt's receiver pins (or whatever you call the guys that lock the upper to the lower) are uniquely sized so that they are slightly bigger than all the other manufacturers. All the other manufacturers run a standard receiver pin size. This means that you can run an LMT, Wilson, Stag, DPMS, etc upper on a Wilson, Stag, DPMS, Double Star, RAA lower with no problems. You can only run a Colt upper on a Colt lower. Definitely something to consider if you plan on running more than one upper on your lower receiver. __________________ Calmer than you are...

01-07-2011, 06:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Thanks for the info guys. I'll avoid the Colt altogether. I did notice however the Daniel Defense warranty is a lifetime one and the DPMS is 3 years. Plus I must admit I do find the DD more aesthetically pleasing. I noticed on the DD website they claim their guns are "100% Mil-spec." Is this true? I looked on the infamous chart and it appears the only major difference between the DD and the Colt was the handguard. Also, would the rear fixed sight on the DD get in the way if I installed optics in the future? I would like having BUIS and I am not sure how easy it would be to add/remove the fixed rear sight in an emergency. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-08-2011, 08:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	To back up Kirstang: If you purchase a good combat optic with a quick release lever it is a matter of seconds to get your 'broken' optic off and your BUIS up. If you have a 1 power like an eotech or aimpoint (Kirstang's diagram) you typically do not have to even remove the optic because if it stops working all you have to do is flip up your BUIS and then use your iron sights. If the glass breaks then you just remove that sight as I mentioned above. If you don't want to get really complicated, I would recommend a fixed front sight with a folding rear and then some sort of quality optic. I always leave my front sight up because I can just look past it when using an optic (magnified or 1x) but it provides a much faster reference if my optic craps out and I just have to flip up my rear sight to get back in business. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-16-2011, 06:15 AM	#9 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Well I bought a daniel defense v3 lightweight and finally got around to taking some pics of it. Haven't shot it yet, hopefully going to take it up to the mountains within the next few weeks. Oh and I got a aimpoint micro r-1 for $300 which is supposedly a good model that just needs some spraypainting. I ordered a larue lt660 quick detach mount for it per kirstang's recommendations __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-16-2011, 11:23 AM	#11 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Please use Photobucket, for Chrissakes. Makin' me go to ImageShack to look at a picture is uncivilized. Some people's kids. ... *Anyway:* Nice stick. Looks like it has some of the goodies on it I mentioned in that ridiculously long masturbatory PM a few months back. Daniel Defense A1.5 fixed rear iron sight, QD end plate. I'd push that broomstick/flashlight farther forward so you can drive it. Optic is good. I don't think I'll ever be able to use an optic without a big rectangular window and a 1 MOA red dot, though. And a rifle isn't a rifle without a sling, homeslice. Get that Emdom/MM Gunslinger strap yet? Get something on this beast. ... I'm jealous that your first M4 comes from research and not "military training." You got a great blaster. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 06-16-2011 at 11:34 AM..

06-16-2011, 06:23 PM	#12 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Kirstang, yes it is a midlength. Well, I'm not sure how to comment on the pencil barrel because I have not shot an AR before so I can't really make any comparisons I'm sort of glad I got it though because the darn thing already feels heavy enough and additionally I have not seen very many v3 LW's in stock on the market, they seem to be a bit rare. Plan9, when I view the post the picture is embedded within it, I'm using Firefox so I am not sure why you have to go to imageshack. I did get a sling, I figured I would try out the PIG single point sling from SKD. They didn't have the emdom in stock at the time. I still might get the emdom though. I'm just messing around with the VG right now, I will probably change it like you said and move it further forward. I was contemplating getting the magpul AVG, have you guys tried it? I made some homemade target stands from tutorials I watched on youtube: So me and a cousin are going to go to a local national forest and arrange them so we are forced to use cover and move around instead of just standing/sitting stationary at a range. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

07-11-2011, 05:40 PM	#15 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I'm so proud! beams __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

07-12-2011, 06:18 AM	#18 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Excellent. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."