Plan9

Goddamnit, TFP. Screw you and your fucking "expired token" bullshit. I just lost a super-gnarly 2-3 page entry. I'm going to have to add/edit this like 438 more times now.

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Context:

Concealed carry permit holders packing pistols on campus is a hot topic at US universities these day, especially whenever Virginia Tech is mentioned.

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First the classroom shooter "science experiment" videos:



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Now, for the hot-hot TFP debate points:

• Training level of the CCW Good Guy vs. Police Bad Guy
• Clothing/equipment of the CCW Good Guy
• Location of the CCW Good Guy in the room
• Psychic ability of the Police Bad Guy
• "Reaction" of the "classmates" in the room

...AND MORE!

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My initial thoughts?

What a piece of shit journalism pegged at convincing anti-gunners that "bad guys are unstoppable" and "why should we try to defend ourselves?"

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My Devil's Advocate'd thoughts?

Sheah, right! That's going to go real well with keg stands, emo kids and frat functions.

The reality of allowing college students to pack guns on campus is a scary. I have no illusions.

"Dude, you seen my Glock?" BLAM-BLAM "Hey, brah, I think it's over there by the bong."

I am not comfortable with the level of training that it takes the average person to get a CCW.

Until the training requirements and credentialing system are improved, keep Seniors unarmed.

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I had a concealed carry permit long before I attended college (non-traditional student) and occasionally thought about how defenseless we all were against a VT-style shooting scenario. My best course of action would have been to chuck a desk and barricade the door. As with most mass shootings, the victims choosing to lay down and die is what gets them killed in droves. One student with a pistol could have stopped the VT shooting quite easily.

The problem, of course, is who.

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This is my opinion even after spending two semesters dealing intensely with the Virginia Tech shooting (law enforcement degree), including memorizing the 300+ page report, examining documents and hearing things that didn't make it into the report as well as talking with family members of those killed.

Guns are good a solution, but putting them in the right hands (those trustworthy and able) remains a huge problem.

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Your thoughts?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ChrisJericho

I think the main message is correct : get training.

However they did set the kids up for failure. They gave them outside the waistband thumb snap holsters to wear underneath baggy clothing plus they had to wear gloves which reduces dexterity. They might as well have done it in the dark with the sprinkler system on while the bad guys have night vision and gore-tex.

Is this the Virginia tech report you are referring to?

Official Site of the Governor of Virginia

If so, I am going to read it.

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Nepenthes

I did not go well for the students in the test because it was a dangerous scenario that most people are not prepared to face.

If there were two shooters in the room who were bent on killing students, it would have been worse for the students if they did not have any guns. There would have been a better chance to stop the two gunmen with more guns in the room.

My highschool teacher way back when gave us a scenario to think about. What if a gunman came into the classroom, blocking the only exit and started shooting? He would have time to stop and reload because most people would not rush the gunman out of instinct and fear. I think about this scenario a lot and hope that I would have mentally prepared myself to take action.

The tragic events at colleges shootings lately are terrible, but I don't think it is wise to arm every student with a handgun just yet.

For the record, I support responsible gun ownership.

Plan9

Not "every student," just those that choose to take the CCW class. A large amount of non-violent hippie Dial-a-Prayer types will still be unarmed.

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Yes. It's lengthy but you can skim it to get to the important stuff but I found it to be an important read for anybody in the law enforcement / security business. While you're reading it... keep in mind things that seem to be missing / conflicting. If you're really interested, I can send you my notes.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

no training can be required for the exercise of a RIGHT!!!!!!!!

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

It hasn't been "right" for a long time, bro. Get with the (bullshit) program.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

been running my own program for quite a few years, so far i've had no bugs.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Plan9

Waco, Texas? And you honestly think that it wouldn't end in disaster to let kids at Michigan State have pistols in their dorm rooms?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

I was still a sheep and asleep during Waco. and no, I do not think it would end in disaster for college students to have pistols in their dorm rooms. I do think it would be a wonderful way to chlorinate the gene pool for a few idiots that shoot themselves, but most of the students that actually do decide to carry a gun are actually responsible. way more responsible than some of those with a state costume and badge anyway.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

KirStang

Well, if you consider the normal barriers to owning a hand gun, let alone a CCW permit

1.) 21 years of age (usually college Sr.'s--less of a 'kid' than say an 18 y/o).
2.) Need to get finger printed, take a CCW course.
3.) Need to spend $300 and above to purchase a gun, and the concomitant research that most college aged individuals will do before a purchase.

And I think you start to get in to a very small segment of the population. I see if this way, if they're responsible enough to jump through all the hoops, then you're responsible enough to CCW, even on campus. All the CCW holders that I knew in college weren't your typical partying dumb-fucks who got drunk and took their blaster with them to parties.

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(Total mental masturbation side-track here)

Oh yea and, I think DKSuddeth sees the 2nd Amendment as a fundamental right--which would mean that the state would have to use the least restrictive means to further a compelling government interest when regulating RKBA. Gun training for public safety probably meets that requirement (simple accessible training to ensure safety), whereas taking guns on campus probably won't. FWIW, 2nd Amend jurisprudence really didn't start until Heller, so, it will be interesting to see whether the RKBA will become a 'fundamental right.'

Douva

Here is a detailed analysis/rebuttal of the ABC 20/20 episode in question:

campuscarry.com/opponents/debunking-abcs-2020-episode-if-i-only-had-a-gun/#content

Here is a list of "Answers to the Most Common Arguments," from Students for Concealed Carry on campus:

campuscarry.com/pdf/sccc_answers_2010.pdf

Here is an essay making the case for legalizing "campus carry" in Texas:

campuscarry.com/pdf/introduction_to_campus_carry_in_texas.pdf

This site contains a lot of information on the ongoing debate over legalizing licensed concealed carry (of handguns) on college campuses:

CampusCarry.com

Plan9

1 - Don't even tell me that you didn't do incredibly stupid shit when you were 21. As I rapidly approach the next decade of my life, I realize the previous one was full of idiocy and lack of responsibility.
2 - You have to do a bunch of fancy stuff to get a driver's license and people still get drunk 'n wreck cars. Cars are a lot more expensive and don't hang out on your nightstand where other people can get them.
3 - You obviously haven't been to college. Money is of no concern to white kids. $300? Their Oakley backpack / Coach purse costs more than a new Glock. Money is hardly an issue; Daddy will buy their USP.

/Devil's Adovcate'd

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

AquaFox

That definitely opened my eyes a bit on the issue... always thought the idea of having one would be useful in such situations and against bears and wildlife. It's alot to risk... There aren't any training requirements here.. i'll definitely look into lessons if I ever decide to.

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...AquaFox...

Walt

QFT. I know its a faux pas to speak ill of the dead, but the vast majority of those students died because they were individually and collectively cowards. See also: Xin Yang, 2009.

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I got bored with the ABC videos and only made it few a few minutes of them. Each time they ran the scenario, was the "armed student" always sitting in the same place in the middle of the front row? If so, wouldn't that kind of skew the results in favor of the bad guy? I mean if the bad guy has the initiative AND knows where the only other gun in the room is (kinda like open carry), the good guys wouldn't stand a chance.

__________________
Calmer than you are...

Plan9

I have no problem speaking ill of the dead in this case. We're grooming generations of pseudo-intellectual emo cowards.

As far as I understand it, the only person to really fight back against the shooter was the old man who died barricading a door. If you read the report, you'll see that some students chose to just lay on the floor and play dead in a classroom. They stayed there even after the shooter left the room, only to be killed when the shooter came back for a second sweep and started insurance popping bodies. Utterly pathetic. Pick up your balls, America.

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One of the debate points in one of the classes I took on managing mass casualty incidents was allowing professors to pack guns in the classroom. The problem, of course, is that this would be a public policy and make the professor the first target of any would-be VTech emulator. The best place to hide a defensive handgun is amongst the student body. The biggest problem with that is finding someone with enough common sense to use it correctly.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Douva

Since it seems that nobody has the time to read through the information at the links I provided, I'll just remind you all that THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT KEEPING GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF COLLEGE STUDENTS.

Legalizing "campus carry" would not change who can buy a gun or who can obtain a concealed handgun license. It would simply allow the same trained, licensed, carefully screened adults—age 21 and above in most states—already allowed to carry concealed handguns in locations like movie theaters, shopping malls, churches, grocery stores, office buildings, restaurants, banks, etc., to do so on college campuses. There is no reason to assume that the same concealed handgun license holders who aren't getting drunk, distraught, or despondent and shooting people outside of campus would suddenly get drunk, distraught, or despondent and shoot people on campus.

Legalizing campus carry would not change the rules at bars, off-campus parties, or most frat houses*—the places where students are most likely to drink. In many states it wouldn't even change the rules at tailgating events**. Of course, carrying a handgun while under the influence of drugs or alcohol would remain illegal.

Despite the fact that very few students of legal age (21 in most states) to obtain a concealed handgun license actually live on campus***, most proposed campus carry legislation would allow universities to regulate the possession and/or storage of firearms in dorms.

Every peer-reviewed study on the subject—including studies by the National Academy of Sciences and the Harvard Injury Control Research Center—has concluded that licensed concealed carry does not lead to an increase in either violent crime or gun deaths. The 71 U.S. college campuses that currently allow licensed concealed carry have yet to see a single resulting incident of gun violence (including threats and suicides), a single resulting gun accident, or a single resulting gun theft.

If there is no evidence that licensed concealed carry makes students and faculty less safe, and if colleges can’t ensure that licensees are not placed at greater risk by being disarmed, what pragmatic reason is there to ban licensed concealed carry on college campuses?

State laws and school policies that prohibit concealed carry on campus serve no purpose but to place law-abiding license holders at the mercy of any criminal willing to disregard state law and school policy. Unless college officials choose to ensure that campus “gun free” zones are gun free in more than name only—by taking steps (i.e., metal detectors) to disarm not only the law-abiding citizens who choose to follow the rules but also the dangerous criminals who choose to ignore the rules—there is no legitimate, fact-based reason to prohibit licensed concealed carry on college campuses.

*Most fraternity houses are privately owned by the overseeing fraternal organizations, and most are located off campus; therefore, laws prohibiting concealed carry on campus do not apply. Regardless of the laws pertaining to concealed carry on college campuses, the owners of these properties are free to create their own regulations.

**In many states, such as Texas, it is not illegal to carry a concealed handgun in a college parking lot.

***This holds true at most PUBLIC colleges, the institutions typically addressed by campus carry legislation. At the University of Texas—a major university with over 50,000 students—a quick comparison of campus housing statistics and Texas concealed handgun licensing statistics reveals that there would likely be no more than 10 to 20 concealed handgun license holders living in on-campus housing.

EDITED TO ADD: I can't imagine how any rational person who has read this rebuttal could possibly attribute any credibility whatsoever to the 20/20 episode at the beginning of this thread: campuscarry.com/opponents/debunking-abcs-2020-episode-if-i-only-had-a-gun/#content

---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------

Here is a response to the Virginia Tech Review Panel's official report:

campuscarry.com/opponents/rebuttal-to-the-virginia-tech-review-panel/#content

ChrisJericho

I just browsed through it and a few of the things that stood out were that aside from the first class which was essentially ambushed, the rest of the classes tended to act somewhat cohesively in terms of trying to barricade the doors or opening the windows, removing the screens and jumping out.

Note to self: if I ever have to jump out a window do the optimum technique the report mentions of lowering yourself down first and then dropping.

Also, I was unaware of how the first wave of officers tried to get into the building as quickly as possible (of course the chains got in their way). I think like a lot of other people, the only footage I saw of the police response was the officers running around outside setting up the perimeter. Of course the main reason they arrived so quickly is because they were already investigating the murders in the dorm room.

I am not sure if this is relevant to the thread, but the college I graduated from has a no guns rule, even for CCW permit holders. However it is perfectly legal under state law to carry on college campuses. Often times I will meet my gf on campus and I am always carrying. Even if my gun was somehow discovered, the most the campus police can do is trespass me from the property as I am not breaking any law.

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Plan9

Masterful post, Douva. It's all the stuff that I wish were the case. Concealed carry on campus is such a non-issue that has been blown out of proportion by both sides. It's funny, your points are nearly identical to the ones I raised when I was briefly "involved" with the "Campus Carry" crowd at my school before it was stomped out by those with louder voices. The thing that is important to remember about the off campus residential stuff, however, is a gun back in your bedroom off campus or even in your car in the parking lot across the street does you no good. Looking back, I may have been a little loose (aka Full Retard) with the terms regarding "frat functions" and whatnot, but just imagine the dorm stacks at a big state school and you get the picture. Also: Having the permit and exercising the privilege are the two things that concealed carry buffs get hung up on. "I demand a permit, it's my right!" is often followed by "I don't all that often because it's a pain in the ass." How many of us have a laminated card in our wallet and no pistol on our hip?

Sadly, I don't think I could have framed the OP/discussion the way you did without getting "uh-huh"s from the Tilted Weaponry section.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."