Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > Interests > Tilted Weaponry


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-23-2009, 08:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Pistol-Caliber Carbines

Pistol-caliber carbines occupy a special niche between handgun and rifle, they are akin to a submachine gun without an auto or burst option.

Commonly, they're semi-auto and chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. Think Marlin Camp Carbine, Kel-Tec Sub-2000, and Beretta CX-4.

Short lever-action rifles chambered in .357 Mag /.38 Spec and .44 Mag / .44 Spec also fit into this category. The Winchester 94 Ranger and Marlin 1894CS are examples.

...

They're useful because they're often handier (shorter and lighter) than full-house long guns (M4s with 15 pieces of flair need not apply), use the same ammunition (and sometimes magazines) as your sidearm, and provide a short range heavy projectile.

...

Let's talk about design and tactical applications.

Do you like or dislike them?

Comments on particular models?
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:50 PM   #2 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
It seems to me that that niche is growing all the time. Military and civilian alike have need for use against unarmored, short ranged targets. Small arms conflicts are probably the most common type of combat today, and since (guessing) like 85% of those conflicts happen in an urban environment, it makes it all the more useful. Not to mention the cost of ammo, pistol is generally a lot cheaper, and more common than rifle ammo. Especially as our economy (and most of the rest of the world's along with it) gets worse, the cost will be all the more important.
Zeraph is offline  
Old 01-23-2009, 08:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
NATO and Warsaw Pact rifle caliber ammo is the cheapest stuff on the planet. Consider production volume.
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-24-2009, 10:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
Eccentric insomniac
 
Slims's Avatar
 
Location: North Carolina
A lot of units have started to shy away from submachine guns because they were not getting the job done as reliably as necessary.

Even the lowly 5.56 is a far superior man stopper than a 9mm round out of a sub gun.

MP-5's and their kin are great where concealment is a priority or spaces are too small for an M-4.
__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence
Slims is offline  
Old 01-24-2009, 10:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin View Post
NATO and Warsaw Pact rifle caliber ammo is the cheapest stuff on the planet. Consider production volume.
Well as you know my knowledge if fairly limited of firearms. I wouldn't be surprised if that changes in the future though.
Zeraph is offline  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Cynosure's Avatar
 
Location: the center of the multiverse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin View Post
Short lever-action rifles chambered in .357 Mag /.38 Spec and .44 Mag / .44 Spec also fit into this category. The Winchester 94 Ranger and Marlin 1894CS are examples.
I loved my Winchester Model 94, i.e. a .30-30 lever action rifle. It was like an adult version of the Red Rider BB gun that I shot as a kid. However, I sold my Model 94, over 10 years ago, which I very much regret now, because Winchester no longer manufactures Model 94's.
Cynosure is offline  
Old 01-24-2009, 02:35 PM   #7 (permalink)
Future Bureaucrat
 
KirStang's Avatar
 
Never used one socially, but I have shot an RRA in 9mm, 45 ACP and an HK USC. I think they have their place in short range confrontations, but (and this is just imho), the 5.56 might be more versatile.

Nice guns though.
KirStang is offline  
Old 01-25-2009, 06:23 PM   #8 (permalink)
Junkie
 
If I'm gonna deal with the length, weight, and storage issues of a rifle, I want a rifle. A pistol-calibre carbine only gives you the worst of both worlds; it's either an underpowered rifle or an enormous pistol, with none of the advantages of either. Leave the pistol cartridges in pistols. I know a couple of folks who use .357/.44 leverguns for close-range deer hunting, but that's the only such weapon that has any attraction for me at all.
The_Dunedan is offline  
Old 01-26-2009, 06:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
Junkie
 
When I was a teenager, my great uncle gave me an M-1 carbine, just the right size for my five foot tall one hundred pound self. Used a special .30 round, not the .30-06 that the M-1 used. Accurate, and not much recoil, with a 15-round clip. You could get a 30-round clip, but I don't have one. I still have the carbine, and use it about once a year, hunting coyotes or feral dogs.

Lindy
(on the road in Hagerstown, MD)
Lindy is offline  
Old 01-26-2009, 06:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
I have a Plainfield PP30 aka "Enforcer." It's basically a M1 Carbine chopped into pistol format. Great little piece. Kicks like a 9mm and totes a 30 round GI mag. Doesn't serve too bad as a home defense piece as it can be fired like a normal handgun or you can hold onto the forearm and use it like a carbine sans stock. It's short, light, easy to operate, and uses a decent short-range round.

...

I find the folds-in-half Keltec Sub2000 (9mm Glock or Beretta mag model) to be a useful alternative to a handgun for situations where I don't have to conceal it on my person or have it as a more substantial secondary piece for situations where a normal carbine (M4) wouldn't make a lot of sense. The thing is an oversize handgun and can be accurately (and rapidly) fired with just one hand and the stock shouldered. For me, the Keltec Sub2000 is primarily used as a car gun (breaks in half and goes under the seat... mag loaded and 100% safe) or a kept behind the door when I stay in hotels. I'll get at why:

I think the primary advantage of a pistol-caliber carbine is that it has all the limitations of a handgun caliber weapon (less range and less wall-piercing bystander-slaying power with a heavy projectile) but it has the advantages of a rifle-shaped weapon (shoulder stock for support, better sights - both improve accuracy). What you get is a weak rifle, something that (I feel) has a place in the civilian world as a self-defense piece or perhaps something law enforcement would be interested in despite their move to M4s.

Sometimes less is more (caliber) and more is more (shoulder stock). Limitations aren't always a bad thing.

Does that make sense to anybody?
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Last edited by Plan9; 01-26-2009 at 07:00 PM..
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-27-2009, 06:13 AM   #11 (permalink)
Master Thief. Master Criminal. Masturbator.
 
SSJTWIZTA's Avatar
 
Location: Windiwana
makes sense to me.

ive been thinking for a while about buying a lever action chambered for pistol ammunition.

something cheaper to fire than my hand me down 30-30, but just as much fun.

the only problem im having (as always) is choosing what round i would like the damn thing to be chambered in.

i have no neighbors, i have no problem with putting a few holes in my wall.
__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller
SSJTWIZTA is offline  
Old 01-28-2009, 06:55 PM   #12 (permalink)
Banned
 
I have my mom's old Ruger .44 carbine that she would take deer hunting in West Virginia. I don't know if she ever bagged a deer, but she would go out with my stepfather and another couple.
new man is offline  
Old 01-30-2009, 12:06 AM   #13 (permalink)
Warrior Smith
 
Fire's Avatar
 
Location: missouri
I like my high point carbine- cheap, but reliable and durable- really so much better than I expected- and I have my m-1 carbine, its a plainfield, 100% usgi compatible and built of about half G.I surplus parts as is.... so I could be called a fan of the pistol caliber carbine family.....
__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens
Fire is offline  
Old 02-01-2009, 10:03 PM   #14 (permalink)
Insane
 
moot1337's Avatar
 
Location: Learning to Fly...
I think that while there are good points to be made about it being more stable a platform than a pistol and having a longer sight radius, the pistol caliber carbine fills roles that are just as adequately filled by a pistol or a rifle, or, better yet, a bullpup rifle.

In my mind, some of the restrictions we have in the US are big deterring factors to pistol caliber rifles. The thing they should really have going for them is a short overall length, and a concealable folded length. Due to the 16" barrel limit and 26" overall length limit on rifles in the US, I can't really see them having either unless in bullpup configuration. Mass produced pistol rounds are designed to attain their maximum energy in 4-6" of barrel, and so gain nothing out of the additional length of a rifle barrel, unless custom loaded.

There are, still, a couple of exceptions which would make good weapons platforms. A buddy of mine recently put together a 9mm AR upper, as he was able to go in on a huge stack of ammo with a friend. It was loaded hot enough that it would tear most handguns up pretty quickly, but the AR eats it like I eat waffles.

.357 SIG is another caliber I could see making a successful light rifle round, for pretty much the same reason. There's a lot of case room to be jammin' some slower burning powder into.

Finally, the PS90 by FN is something of an increased versatility rifle. The 5.7mm round was designed to be fired from this platform, so it works pretty well in it. Performs as a rifle should, with a very small overall length and weight. I wouldn't bother using the Five-seveN pistol with it, however, as it's pretty much the reverse of the above, a pistol trying to fire a round loaded for a rifle, and gaining the benefits of neither.

The bottom line is that a medium weight weapon is a great idea, but needs to have ammo loaded specifically for it in order to function in a way markedly different from a pistol (which is concealable) or a rifle (which has greater range and capacity for doing damage).

I'm personally still waiting for Kel-Tec to get their RFB on the shelves. 7.62 NATO, 18" barrel, 26" overall length... a semi-compact weapon in full-size caliber is right up my alley.

-m00t

*as a side note, if it were legal in the US, whenever not carrying my pistol, I would totally have a stock mounted on it. Steyr makes a pretty cool removable polymer piece for the m9 series. Alas, it is not meant to be.
__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.

This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Oh, certainly, sir.
moot1337 is offline  
Old 02-02-2009, 06:29 AM   #15 (permalink)
zomgomgomgomgomgomg
 
telekinetic's Avatar
 
Location: Fauxenix, Azerona
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin View Post
I find the folds-in-half Keltec Sub2000 [are really cool and useful for the following convincing reasons, and cheaper than a pistol to boot]
Does that make sense to anybody?
Don't be surprised once my tax return comes in if you get a call from my wife when she wants to know wtf that foldy thing is and why our checking account is down $325, cuz I'm totally blaming you
__________________
twisted no more
telekinetic is offline  
Old 02-02-2009, 09:23 AM   #16 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmosaic View Post
Don't be surprised once my tax return comes in if you get a call from my wife when she wants to know wtf that foldy thing is and why our checking account is down $325, cuz I'm totally blaming you
Make sure you get the stock extension cap and tube cover. The thing is annoying to fire otherwise.
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
 

Tags
carbines, pistolcaliber

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:26 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360