Open Carry - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 06-08-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

View: Packing in public: Gun owners tired of hiding their weapons embrace 'open carry'
Source: LATimes
posted with the TFP thread generator

Packing in public: Gun owners tired of hiding their weapons embrace 'open carry'
Packing in public: Gun owners tired of hiding their weapons embrace 'open carry'
Those who wear their guns in full sight are part of a fledgling movement to make a firearm a common accessory.
By Nicholas Riccardi
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

June 7, 2008

PROVO, UTAH — For years, Kevin Jensen carried a pistol everywhere he went, tucked in a shoulder holster beneath his clothes.

In hot weather the holster was almost unbearable. Pressed against Jensen's skin, the firearm was heavy and uncomfortable. Hiding the weapon made him feel like a criminal.

Then one evening he stumbled across a site that urged gun owners to do something revolutionary: Carry your gun openly for the world to see as you go about your business.

In most states there's no law against that.

Jensen thought about it and decided to give it a try. A couple of days later, his gun was visible, hanging from a black holster strapped around his hip as he walked into a Costco. His heart raced as he ordered a Polish dog at the counter. No one called the police. No one stopped him.

Now Jensen carries his Glock 23 openly into his bank, restaurants and shopping centers. He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally. He and his wife, Clachelle, drop off their 5-year-old daughter at elementary school with pistols hanging from their hip holsters, and have never received a complaint or a wary look.

Jensen said he tries not to flaunt his gun. "We don't want to show up and say, 'Hey, we're here, we're armed, get used to it,' " he said.

But he and others who publicly display their guns have a common purpose.

The Jensens are part of a fledgling movement to make a firearm as common an accessory as an iPod. Called "open carry" by its supporters, the movement has attracted grandparents, graduate students and lifelong gun enthusiasts like the Jensens.

"What we're trying to say is, 'Hey, we're normal people who carry guns,' " said Travis Deveraux, 36, of West Valley, a Salt Lake City suburb. Deveraux works for a credit card company and sometimes walks around town wearing a cowboy hat and packing a pistol in plain sight. "We want the public to understand it's not just cops who can carry guns."

Police acknowledge the practice is legal, but some say it makes their lives tougher.

Police Chief John Greiner recalled that last year in Ogden, Utah, a man was openly carrying a shotgun on the street. When officers pulled up to ask him about the gun, he started firing. Police killed the man.

Greiner tells the story as a lesson for gun owners. "We've changed over the last 200 years from the days of the wild, wild West," Greiner said. "Most people don't openly carry. . . . If [people] truly want to open carry, they ought to expect they'll be challenged more until people become comfortable with it."

Jensen and others argue that police shouldn't judge the gun, but rather the actions of the person carrying it. Jensen, 28, isn't opposed to attention, however. It's part of the reason he brought his gun out in the open.

"At first, [open carry] was a little novelty," he said. "Then I realized the chances of me educating someone are bigger than ever using it [the gun] in self-defense. If it's in my pants or under my shirt I'm probably not going to do anything with it."

As Clachelle pushed the shopping cart holding their two young children during a recent trip to Costco, her husband admired the new holster wrapped around her waist. "I like the look of that low-rise gun belt," he said.

The Jensens' pistols were snapped into holsters attached to black belts that hug their waists. Guns are a fact of life in their household. Their 5-year-old daughter, Sierra, has a child-sized .22 rifle she handles only in her parents' presence.

Clachelle is the daughter of a Central California police chief and began shooting when she was about Sierra's age. She would take her parents' gun when she went out and hide it in her purse because the firearm made her feel safer.

"I love 'em," Clachelle said. "I wouldn't ever be without them."

Kevin Jensen's first encounter with guns came when he was 11: His grandfather died and left him a 16-gauge shotgun. The gun stayed locked away but fascinated Jensen through his teen years. He convinced his older brother to take him shooting in the countryside near their home in a small town south of Salt Lake City.

"I immediately fell in love with it," said Jensen, a lean man with close-cropped hair and a precise gait that is a reminder of his five years in the Army Reserve. "I like things that go boom."

Jensen kept as many as 10 guns in the couple's 1930s-style bungalow in Santaquin, 21 miles southwest of Provo. In January 2005, he decided to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon, mainly for self-defense.

"I'm not going to hide in the corner of a school and mall and wait for the shooting to stop," he said.

When Jensen bought a Glock and the dealer threw in an external hip holster, he began researching the idea of carrying the gun in public and came upon OpenCarry.org.

Its website, run by two Virginia gun enthusiasts, claims 4,000 members nationwide. It summarizes the varying laws in each state that permit or forbid the practice. People everywhere have the right to prohibit weapons from their property, and firearms are often banned in government buildings such as courthouses.

According to an analysis by Legal Community Against Violence, a gun control group in San Francisco that tracks gun laws, at least eight states largely ban the practice, including Iowa and New Jersey. Those that allow it have different restrictions: In California, people can openly carry only unloaded guns.

Utah has no law prohibiting anyone from carrying a gun in public, as long as it is two steps from firing -- for example, the weapon may have a loaded clip but must be uncocked, with no bullets in the chamber. Those who obtain a concealed-weapons permit in Utah don't have that restriction. Also, youths under 18 can carry a gun openly with parental approval and a supervising adult in close proximity.

Most of the time people don't notice Jensen's gun. That's not uncommon, said John Pierce, a law student and computer consultant in Virginia who is a co-founder of OpenCarry.org.

"People are carrying pagers, BlackBerrys, cellphones," Pierce said. "They see a black lump on your belt and their eyes slide off."

Sometimes the reactions are comical. Bill White, a 24-year-old graduate student in ancient languages at the University of Colorado at Boulder, wears his Colt pistol out in the open when he goes to his local Starbucks. Earlier this month a tourist from California spotted him and snapped a photo on his cellphone.

"He said it would prove he was in the Wild West," White recalled.

But there are times when the response is more severe. Deveraux has been stopped several times by police, most memorably in December when he was walking around his neighborhood.

An officer pulled up and pointed his gun at Deveraux, warning he would shoot to kill. In the end, eight officers arrived, cuffed Deveraux and took his gun before Deveraux convinced them they had no legal reason to detain him.

Deveraux saw the incident as not giving ground on his rights. "I'm proud that happened," he said.

Cases like this are talked about during regular gatherings of those who favor open carry. At a Sweet Tomatoes restaurant in the Salt Lake City suburb of Sandy, more than 40 civilians with guns strapped to their hips took over a corner of the restaurant, eating pasta and boisterously sharing stories.

Hassles with law enforcement were a badge of honor for some.

Travis White, 19, who has ear and chin piercings, congratulated Brandon Trask, 21, on carrying openly for the first time that night. "Just wait until you get confronted by a cop," White said. "It'll make you feel brave."

Having pistols strapped around their waists made Shel Anderson, 67, and his wife, Kaye, 63, feel more secure. Longtime recreational shooters, they began to carry their pistols openly after a spate of home-invasion robberies in their neighborhood. The firearms can serve as a warning to predators, they said.

"I decided I want to have as much of an advantage as I can have in this day and age," said Kaye Anderson, a retired schoolteacher.

Nearby, Scott Thompson picked over the remains of a salad, his Springfield Armory XD-35 sitting snugly in his hip holster.

The gangly graphics designer grew up in a home without guns and didn't think of owning one until he started dating a woman -- now his wife -- who lived in a rough neighborhood. One night last year, a youth had his head beaten in with a pipe outside her bedroom window. The next day, Thompson got a concealed-weapons permit.

Thompson found out about open carry last month while reading gun sites. He's become a convert. He likes the statement it makes.

Glancing around the restaurant, as armed families like the Jensens dined with men in cowboy hats and professionals like himself, Thompson smiled.

"I love this," he said. "I want people to be aware that crazy people are not the only ones with guns. Normal people carry them."

The Jensens' daughter, Sierra, and newborn son, Tyler, began to get restless, so the couple bundled up the children and pulled the manager of the restaurant aside to thank her for hosting them.

A patron appeared at Jensen's side and began to berate him. "What you guys are doing here is completely unacceptable," he said. "There are children here."

Jensen said that everyone in the restaurant had a legal right to carry. The man didn't back down and the Jensens left.

Days later, Jensen was still thinking about the reaction and the man's belief that guns are unsafe.

"People can feel that way and it doesn't bother me," he said. "If they have irrational fears, that's fine."

Would you open carry? Why or why not?

I currently don't own any weapons but have in the past. The density here in NYC makes it impractical to posess and use a weapon.

But if I lived in suburbia, I'd probably be much more interested in open carry. I recall going over the laws when living in CA that I could walk the city with a shotgun at my side, just had to make sure that I kept the ammo in a different pocket so that the weapon wasn't loaded. Of course getting hassled by the police was just a pain in the ass, so it was short lived.

The_Dunedan · 06-08-2008, 07:03 PM

We open carry almost everywhere we go, the only exceptions being cop-shops, post offices, schools, etc. My Mom refuses to open carry in the grocery store, but that just means she leaves her primary behind and takes the Kel Tec .32. Other than that, it's an everyday/everywhere thing for us. Gotten a few dirty or puzzled looks, lots of questions, and more than a few "attaboy's" from passerby.

Aah, the joys of living in the middle of nowhere.

MSD · 06-09-2008, 03:07 AM

"He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally."
Why does this not surprise me?

I have no choice -- under CT law, even printing is considered brandishing and is grounds for permanent revocation of your carry permit. The pistol permit and carry permit are the same thing, so you can no longer legally purchase handguns in CT after that. I'd still conceal if I had the choice, though. It should be a deterrent, but with the gang activity in the area getting so bad, I wouldn't want to risk someone even thinking about stealing my gun because it could cause danger to a lot more people than just me. Maybe it's just from being in the Northeast all my life, but I can't imagine open carry being a common thing.

ChrisJericho · 06-09-2008, 04:26 PM

Interesting topic. How much faster is it to deploy a pistol from open carry as opposed to typical concealed carry holsters? Is the faster deploy time worth potential bad guys seeing that you are armed when they are about to start shooting the mall up, and thus taking you out first? I suppose it depends on if you think the weapon acts as a deterrent or if you want the element of surprise.

For example, I know jiu-jitsu, but I would prefer bad guys only finding that out AFTER I have wrapped my arms around their neck.

RetroGunslinger · 06-09-2008, 04:50 PM

Chris, I think their logic is that it's a deterrent. In that sense, I understand it. Considering the density of violence in the news (not that that necessarily denotes an overly violent world), it makes sense that gun owners would want such confidence. Further, I think it's perfectly reasonable to carry a gun in general public places (going near a school or government building is going a little too far, however). It's within their rights, so I support it.

From a fashion point of view, however, it's a little too gaudy for my taste.

telekinetic · 06-09-2008, 05:08 PM

I live in Phoenix. I see people open carry a couple times a week all over the place. Once I have a carry firearm that I'm happy with and have properly trained with (gun show in two weeks!), if I'm working on a project and I'm just going to run to the store or something, I'll probably just slap on a belt holster rather than put on a concealed rig.

I definitely will open carry when hiking. Too much of a pain otherwise.

Open carry in Arizona is legal with no paperwork, by the way. Huzzah!

Edit: besides, holsters are cool!

Slims · 06-09-2008, 05:19 PM

I fully support legal open carry. However, I also believe concealed carry is more practical in many situations.

I am sure open carry is a deterrant (who wants to mug someone who definately has a gun?), however, if someone does proceed with an attack, you are probably going to get shot straight away as they know you have a gun.

Also, personal protection is about making sure you remain safe, and one of the best ways to do that is to blend in and keep a low profile. If you have a big ass pistol strapped to your hip for everyone to see you have definately just raised your profile.

I also like concealed carry as it allows me to better control a situation that is in the process of escalating. If I feel the presence of a firearm would only make things worse, I can choose to never reveal that I have one.

I can draw a concealed weapon almost as fast as one carried openly.

If I lived on a ranch or elsewhere where firearms are the norm I wouldn't hesitate to carry openly.

Even in Afghanistan, if I was not on a full blown combat mission, I usually chose to carry concealed. When we would go meet with afghans (some of them very questionable people) it really helped put our hosts at ease when we dropped our body armor and our only apparent weapons (M-4's) in a corner of the room.

MSD · 06-10-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

I fully support legal open carry. However, I also believe concealed carry is more practical in many situations.

I am sure open carry is a deterrant (who wants to mug someone who definately has a gun?), however, if someone does proceed with an attack, you are probably going to get shot straight away as they know you have a gun.

Also, personal protection is about making sure you remain safe, and one of the best ways to do that is to blend in and keep a low profile. If you have a big ass pistol strapped to your hip for everyone to see you have definately just raised your profile.

Seeing as one of my big concerns is that the places that make me nervous are that way because of the nearby gang territory, I don't want to stick out any more than I do by being ridiculously tall.

Jinn · 06-10-2008, 09:53 AM

Open Carry in CO is legal without permit. I'd never do it, though, because my city seems to have one of the highest percentage of "OH SHIT HE'S GOT A GUN!!! CALL THE COPS!!" idiots and I don't like being interrogated by police officers everywhere I go. In one of my gun safety classes the officer (a city police officer) was recommending that we get concealed carry permits, just he disliked as much as I did having to stop everyone open carrying to make sure they're not brandishing because someone called 911.

Concealed offers me the same protection without the hassle of my misguided liberal brethren and their irrational fears.

xepherys · 06-10-2008, 11:07 AM

I support open carry wholeheartedly. TotalMILF and I plan to get our concealed permits here shortly anyhow, and I need to look into open carry in Michigan, but I wouldn't be opposed to it for myself either. Just need to find the right pistol and get a card to carry around with the legalese in case law enforcement decided to get crazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

Even in Afghanistan, if I was not on a full blown combat mission, I usually chose to carry concealed. When we would go meet with afghans (some of them very questionable people) it really helped put our hosts at ease when we dropped our body armor and our only apparent weapons (M-4's) in a corner of the room.

MOST of them very questionable people? What province were you in? Being the SECFOR over there, we never dropped armor or weapons and tried like hell to stop our CO from doing so with tribal elders. While we saw the "at ease" aspect, our province was far too hot for such things, at least as us infantry guys saw it.

Lakerman · 06-10-2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistedmosaic

Where's the mushroom shirt, the mushroom belt, the mushroom lining? You gotta co-ordinate! Srsly tho, CF belt + holster = nguyen!

MSD · 06-10-2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakerman

Where's the mushroom shirt, the mushroom belt, the mushroom lining? You gotta co-ordinate! Srsly tho, CF belt + holster = nguyen!

I read this at least ten times and I still have absolutely no idea what you're saying.

dksuddeth · 06-11-2008, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

I read this at least ten times and I still have absolutely no idea what you're saying.

It's a movie line from the movie 'Boomerang'. You'd have to see that scene to understand it, but I read it and it's pretty damn funny.

I'm working with a group here in TX to get open carry decriminalized for the next session, barring that, I guess i'll fight it if I ever get arrested for carrying without a license.

Lakerman · 06-14-2008, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

It's a movie line from the movie 'Boomerang'. You'd have to see that scene to understand it, but I read it and it's pretty damn funny.

I'm working with a group here in TX to get open carry decriminalized for the next session, barring that, I guess i'll fight it if I ever get arrested for carrying without a license.

Heh, at least someone got the reference. I didn't know TX didn't permit open carry. Of all the states that allow it, you'd think TX would be one of them. I remember reading about how the Black Panthers exercised open carry rights back in the day in CA. Is there somewhere we can get a list of states that permit it? And yeah that CF belt+holster is sexc.

MSD · 06-14-2008, 06:13 PM

These have become the new packing.org resources. I really wish the guy who owned it had passed it on instead of saying "I don't feel like doing it anymore" and letting it die.

http://www.usacarry.com/
http://www.handgunlaw.us/

dksuddeth · 06-15-2008, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakerman

Heh, at least someone got the reference. I didn't know TX didn't permit open carry. Of all the states that allow it, you'd think TX would be one of them. I remember reading about how the Black Panthers exercised open carry rights back in the day in CA. Is there somewhere we can get a list of states that permit it? And yeah that CF belt+holster is sexc.

opencarry.org is an excellent site and has plenty of maps that cover most laws.

dksuddeth · 06-23-2008, 05:58 AM

http://www.star-telegram.com/804/story/715977.html

Quote:

Thousands sign petition to make Texas an open-carry state

By ANNA M. TINSLEY
atinsley@star-telegram.com

If Duane Suddeth had his way, he could strap on a handgun and wear it — anytime, anywhere — without concealing it.

That day has not come in Texas, but the 42-year-old Bedford man is among thousands hoping it is on its way.

"This is the public’s right," Suddeth said. "Whether they choose to exercise that or not is up to them."

Texas, despite its independence and frontier reputation, is one of only six states where handguns cannot — in some form — legally be worn in plain view.

Suddeth is among a group of residents wanting to change that who have joined a growing nationwide "open-carry" movement.

Some say it harks back to constitutional rights and frontier days when settlers carried their weapons where everyone could see them.

"It was considered part of everyday life back then," said John Pierce, co-founder of www.OpenCarry.org, a champion of the effort. "The concealed-carry part was what was looked at with disdain."

In Texas, where residents may carry concealed handguns if they have a permit, more than 3,500 people have signed an online petition asking Gov. Rick Perry and the Legislature to make Texas an open-carry state.

"Cowboys and Indians, and the Alamo — and many just assumed that Texas was an open-carry state," wrote Gary Williams, one of many Texans advocating for gun law change. "Clearly, there are some changes that need to be made."

Gun safety advocates aren’t so sure.

"What are they trying to do? Go back to Texas gunslinger days?" asked Richard Leal, a board member of the Houston-based Texans for Gun Safety. "Things are bad enough as it is, with people 18 and older being authorized to carry guns."

The open-carry effort

Many states such as Texas do have concealed handgun rules and permits in place.

But many also have open-carry rules, unlike Texas, along with New York, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Florida, South Carolina and Washington, D.C., according to OpenCarry.org.

Dozens of states either issue licenses for open carry or allow the practice without any license, according to the Web site.

"The concealed-carry movement that swept the country in past decades has been a great benefit to law-abiding citizens to be able to protect themselves in an uncertain world," Pierce said. "But we are trying to re-educate people that open carry is . . . a basic gun right."

The Texas Citizens Defense League, of which Williams and Suddeth are members, is trying to get the word out.

Part of that is the petition that asks that all people who may legally buy a handgun also be allowed to carry it openly, except in places prohibited by law.

"I can’t count the times I have been in some discussion about open carry in some Northern state . . . and somebody says, 'Hey, this is not . . . Texas,’ " said Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org.

"And I respond, 'Thankfully you are correct, as open carry is banned in Texas.’ "

Texas reaction

Any change to the law would come from the Texas Legislature, which is why the petition is to lawmakers and Perry.

The issue is not on the governor’s plate yet, a spokeswoman said.

"The governor is very supportive of conceal and carry laws," said Kristi Piferrer, a Perry spokeswoman. "Expanding that to open carry probably will take a lot of public deliberation and legislative guidance."

Some law enforcers say they would be leery of an open-carry policy in Texas.

"I really think it would cause a lot of uneasiness in the community, with people seeing so many guns," Tarrant County Constable Sergio DeLeon said. "It could create more problems than it would solve."

Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson, who as a state senator helped make concealed-carry law in 1995, said he doesn’t believe that open carry would create any problems.

While he never considered proposing an open-carry measure, Patterson said he has seen the practice in Arizona.

"I went into the bank, and a guy walked in with a .45 in his back pocket," he said. "I thought, 'Well, that’s unusual.’ "

"You never know"

Suddeth, an IT professional who does some travel for work, said he would like to openly carry a loaded handgun. In the past year, Suddeth said there was an elderly woman attacked, cars broken into, a home broken into and several assaults in his Bedford neighborhood.

"You never know when crime is going to happen," he said. "I think eventually we will see open carry in Texas.

"Eventually, it will happen."

Online: www.petitiononline.com/texasoc/petition.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open-carry states Texas is one of six states that either do not allow or highly restrict the open carrying of handguns in public. The others are New York, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Florida and South Carolina, as well as Washington, D.C., according to OpenCarry.org.

More than a dozen states require a license for open carry, from Utah to Mississippi to Massachusetts. Eleven more, from Vermont to Arizona, allow it but don’t require licenses. Still more generally permit it but offer various restrictions. And two states, California and Illinois, allow loaded handguns to be carried in rural areas, according to the Web site.

"OpenCarry.org believes that 'a right unexercised is a right lost,’ and increasingly gun owners are agreeing," according to the Web site. "It’s time gun carry comes out of the closet in America."

dksuddeth · 06-24-2008, 09:52 AM

and another one.

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/...&pageId=3.14.1

there is video in the article, yes, that is me in the first part of the segment.

Plan9 · 06-24-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn

Open Carry in CO is legal without permit. I'd never do it, though, because my city seems to have one of the highest percentage of "OH SHIT HE'S GOT A GUN!!! CALL THE COPS!!" idiots and I don't like being interrogated by police officers everywhere I go. In one of my gun safety classes the officer (a city police officer) was recommending that we get concealed carry permits, just he disliked as much as I did having to stop everyone open carrying to make sure they're not brandishing because someone called 911.

Concealed offers me the same protection without the hassle of my misguided liberal brethren and their irrational fears.

+1 [Virginia] (despite hoody-hoo VA gun groups)

Open carry makes you a magnet to other charges that somehow wouldn't be bothered with if you were Joe Nongun. Jay walking while open carrying? Book 'em, Dano.

Greg700 has the right philosophy.

...

Self defense starts first with how you walk and second with what you say.

Third should probably be how fast you can run... and drawing your pistol should be near ninety-nine or so.

echo5delta · 06-26-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

Even in Afghanistan, if I was not on a full blown combat mission, I usually chose to carry concealed. When we would go meet with afghans (some of them very questionable people) it really helped put our hosts at ease when we dropped our body armor and our only apparent weapons (M-4's) in a corner of the room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

MOST of them very questionable people? What province were you in? Being the SECFOR over there, we never dropped armor or weapons and tried like hell to stop our CO from doing so with tribal elders. While we saw the "at ease" aspect, our province was far too hot for such things, at least as us infantry guys saw it.

There is that. "Complacency Kills" is the most overused BS catchphrase ever, but I sure as hell didn't wanna be THAT guy, either.

Last year, I did Civil Affairs the whole time - also a lot of in-person engagements with leadership and townspeople. Generally, in this context (and also keep in mind, I was in Anbar, where we've completed the security piece and have worked transition for the past 18-24 months), I would also go slick and carry just the sidearm if we were in a hardened building and had security posted.

It wasn't so much to put anyone at ease, but mainly 1) because I could take a breather from the PPE, and B) because even in a phone booth, their marksmanship sucks ass. I *know* what I can do indoors with an M9.

Here in the US, I chime in with those who say locale goes a long way. I'd do it anywhere in Colorado, except maybe Denver or the Springs. Wouldn't dream of it in any east or west coast states withing 100 miles of an Interstate, for a lot of the reasons already cited.

People just flip the fuck out when they see a gun hanging off even a well-dressed, miled-mannered clean-cut white guy if it's not a cop. The hassle isn't worth it.

dksuddeth · 08-16-2008, 05:54 AM

Texas billboard is up in Austin for OpenCarry.org

Bear Cub · 08-16-2008, 06:27 AM

Wish we could see some of those in Houston. Seems like all of our billboards are for Mattress Giant.

CandleInTheDark · 08-16-2008, 09:13 AM

Open carry smacks of brandishing to me, and in the current climate seems more of an attention grabber than a legitimate use of a defensive weapon.

kel · 08-18-2008, 03:40 PM

I have done it. I wouldn't do it again. Life is to short to spend time having your ass kicked by the cops.

jorgelito · 08-18-2008, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn

Open Carry in CO is legal without permit. I'd never do it, though, because my city seems to have one of the highest percentage of "OH SHIT HE'S GOT A GUN!!! CALL THE COPS!!" idiots and I don't like being interrogated by police officers everywhere I go. In one of my gun safety classes the officer (a city police officer) was recommending that we get concealed carry permits, just he disliked as much as I did having to stop everyone open carrying to make sure they're not brandishing because someone called 911.

Concealed offers me the same protection without the hassle of my misguided liberal brethren and their irrational fears.

Do the cops really hassle people who are lawfully and legally carrying? It seems so crazy. I would love to hear the cops' perspective. Any TFP coppers who can weigh in on this too?

I live in California where all our rights have been taken away. I would consider conceal carry though just because I see it as an inherent right. Open carry here would probably not fly. Idunno though.

The_Dunedan · 08-18-2008, 05:42 PM

We've never had a problem with the Police or Deputies here, but then we do run a gunshop on a farm in the middle of buttfuck, so it's kind-of expected. Plus there are a few other locals who do the same thing, so as long as you're not visibly intoxicated and waving the thing in the air, you probably won't get hassled up here. The only possible wrench in the works is a tourist from the city, but they're not terribly common*, thankfully, and the Sheriff would probably laugh at them and tell them to calm down and get used to it.

In a big city it can be a different story. Lots of cops don't know that open carry is legal, and it can be a problem if some easily-panicked waterhead calls 911.

*The one exception: bikers. My area gets a -lot- of bikers. Somehow, they never seem to mind the guns either.

canuckguy · 08-18-2008, 06:12 PM

I live in Canada so I've never really had an exposure to this type of activity and I am very fascinated. I never go into the sections of the site that debate guns or discuss them. First off I thought every post would be something negative and it is the opposite. i have no opinion either way, but i am always excited when i think a thread is going to hit one direction and it smacks me in the face!

In Canada I would have to say very few people carry guns, no idea what the stat is but rare since I've never had anyone I've known or heard of second hand who carries for protection.
anyway not important, but i think that if i did live in a place were people carried guns or had the right to carry i would want them out in the open where they can be a good deterrent IMO instead of all stuffed away.

The_Dunedan · 08-18-2008, 06:55 PM

In some parts of the US, such as where I live and in large parts of the American South and West, it's reasonably common. I'd say open carry's probably more common in the Western states than anywhere else, because so much of that area is rural. I'm talkin' nobody-for-100-miles-in-every-direction rural. It's not terribly common in the flatlands, and certainly not in the "Beltway," although I understand it's becoming more regular in the Vermont/New Hampshire/Maine area. Lots of folks view it as an opportunity to educate people about 2nd Amendment issues and individual Rights of all sorts, and it's certainly easier to carry openly than conceal a pistol in 100+ degree weather and remain comfortable.

dksuddeth · 08-19-2008, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Do the cops really hassle people who are lawfully and legally carrying? It seems so crazy. I would love to hear the cops' perspective. Any TFP coppers who can weigh in on this too?

I live in California where all our rights have been taken away. I would consider conceal carry though just because I see it as an inherent right. Open carry here would probably not fly. Idunno though.

In california, by law, open carry is legal. The caveat, though, is the weapon must NOT be loaded. If you carry the gun in a holster, the magazine MUST not be in the weapon. If you have a mag holder, perfect. However, depending on what part of cali you live in, you can most assuredly expect an encounter with law enforcement.

Now, this does not mean that you shouldn't open carry in cali. for example,

san diego open carry lunch and dinner meet!! updated 7-16-08. - Page 35 - Calguns.net

and though nobody was hassled at this open carry event, there were plenty of police officers on scene.....just because.

I hear that the next open carry event is going to be in san jose. Hey will, you up for it?

MSD · 08-21-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Do the cops really hassle people who are lawfully and legally carrying? It seems so crazy. I would love to hear the cops' perspective. Any TFP coppers who can weigh in on this too?

It's kind of like the good cop/asshole cop split; most of them are cool with it, but there are some who will make it their mission to ruin your day. Some cops aren't comfortable with non-police civilians having guns, some are. The ones who aren't will likely take you in for disturbing the peace or disorderly conduct, hear from your lawyer, then let you go later that day or the next day, at which point you file a complaint for harassment.

CandleInTheDark · 08-23-2008, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canuckguy

In Canada I would have to say very few people carry guns, no idea what the stat is but rare since I've never had anyone I've known or heard of second hand who carries for protection.
anyway not important, but i think that if i did live in a place were people carried guns or had the right to carry i would want them out in the open where they can be a good deterrent IMO instead of all stuffed away.

Firearms carried for defense by private citizens (as opposed to police or RCMP) is generally limited to those who require it for job safety. This requires some managing of Authorization to Transport permits, and open carry permits. If you are not guarding an armoured car, or likely to be eaten by a bear, you are not going to get a an authorization to carry. Even then, they'd probably prefer that you get eaten by a bear before authorizing you to carry a field revolver.

KirStang · 08-23-2008, 06:59 PM

I would open carry simply because it's more comfortable and more manageable. Stuffing a 5lb weight in your crotch and trying to appear nonchalant is a little difficult.

telekinetic · 08-23-2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

Stuffing a 5lb weight in your crotch and trying to appear nonchalant is a little difficult.

Halx seems to have it down!

*rimshot*

Open carry is a tactical as well as a social and political choice. Is the potential prevention worth the loss of surprise and possibly a second or two more access time? I've never heard a convincing arguement that one way is 100% better in all circumstances than the other.

Slims · 08-28-2008, 09:02 AM

Twisted Mosaic: Of course concealed carry isn't appropriate for all circumstances.

If you are in a situation where it is simply assumed you are armed, it is better to have quick access (Police, etc.). But for the regular citizen, most of the time, I feel it is best not to display the weapon unnecessarily.

For instance, I read a story some time back about a defensive shooting at a gun store. The store was robbed, and at some point a shot was fired at one of the employees (and missed, IIRC). Following the robbery, the robbers did things that indicated they were going to execute the employees. At that time, one of the employees drew a concealed weapon and ended the situation.

Had he been wearing that weapon on his hip, he would more than likely have simply been shot at the get-go.

Like I said earlier, concealed carry has it's drawbacks, but for most every day situations (in urban areas) it's best, IMHO, not to attract attention.

Plan9 · 08-31-2008, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private Frost from that '80s flick Aliens

What are we supposed to use, man? Harsh language?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

I would open carry simply because it's more comfortable and more manageable. Stuffing a 5lb weight in your crotch and trying to appear nonchalant is a little difficult.

Hah, 5 lbs. Stuffing an MRI Desert Eagle behind your fly, are we?

That's funny, a S&W .38 weighs 14 ounces. Probably less than some people's wallets. Most logical concealed carry pieces are going to be pretty small and lightweight. Packing a full size automatic is overkill, IMO. Such weapons are sidearms, not concealed carry pieces. Big difference. A sidearm is a backup to a main firearm for those in an offensive role (military, SWAT, Chuck Norris flick badguys) or a main firearm for those engaged in a protective / defensive role (patrol cops, Average Joe Schmuckatelli). A concealed carry piece is a last ditch, oh-snap-somebody-is-trying-to-croak-me weapon to be used at close range (21 feet or less).

Concealed carry is superior in that it doesn't make you a target to bad guys and cops, doesn't scare ignorant civilians, and doesn't lead to as many firearm-related "accidents."

In a perfect world? Open carry would be ideal. In this world? I am (and you should be, too) more afraid of the police actin'-a-fool and rabid civvie litigation than actually needing to use the privilege to defend yourself using a firearm.

...

Carry weapons is a big pain in the ass anyway. I continue to study martial arts in the hope that the latter will help prevent the use of the former as much as possible.

Perhaps unlike others here at the board who train in martial arts... I'm realistic about the limitations.

Tully Mars · 08-31-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Carry weapons is a big pain in the ass anyway. I continue to study martial arts in the hope that the latter will help prevent the use of the former as much as possible.

Perhaps unlike others here at the board who train in martial arts... I'm realistic about the limitations.

I've usually found conversation to be the first line of defense. Not always, but usually.
-----Added 31/8/2008 at 12 : 38 : 33-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Do the cops really hassle people who are lawfully and legally carrying? It seems so crazy. I would love to hear the cops' perspective. Any TFP coppers who can weigh in on this too?

I live in California where all our rights have been taken away. I would consider conceal carry though just because I see it as an inherent right. Open carry here would probably not fly. Idunno though.

I used to do parole and probation in a rural area of Oregon. Seeing someone with a weapon almost always amounted to a violation of their release agreement. So if they had a weapon it was quickly an in custody situation. Simply were admin. rules that could not be over looked. There was a time under the right circumstances an waiver could be easily applied for during hunting season. Those days ended in the late 80's.

Most Deputies and State Troopers I worked with were not fond of people carrying weapons, esp. loaded weapons. Flat out freaked them out. Of course when you've know or attended funerals for fellow officers who'd be killed during traffic stops I could see being a little on the paranoid side.

I only worked traffic or in uniform during holiday periods for overtime pay. Probably 8-10 times a year for nearly 20 years. During which I wrote a total of less then 10 tickets. If I wrote you a ticket you earned it. Saw lots of rifles and hand guns in vehicles. Caught my attention, kept a close eye on them, but I wouldn't say it raised my blood pressure any.

canuckguy · 08-31-2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CandleInTheDark

Firearms carried for defense by private citizens (as opposed to police or RCMP) is generally limited to those who require it for job safety. This requires some managing of Authorization to Transport permits, and open carry permits. If you are not guarding an armoured car, or likely to be eaten by a bear, you are not going to get a an authorization to carry. Even then, they'd probably prefer that you get eaten by a bear before authorizing you to carry a field revolver.

Interesting, well I have to admit that I am glad that is our law and how we handle it.

I'll just be overly polite to the bear while it nibbles on my leg and eventually it will leave. Plus i think I might be too salty according to the lady friend.

jorgelito · 08-31-2008, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I've usually found conversation to be the first line of defense. Not always, but usually.
-----Added 31/8/2008 at 12 : 38 : 33-----

I used to do parole and probation in a rural area of Oregon. Seeing someone with a weapon almost always amounted to a violation of their release agreement. So if they had a weapon it was quickly an in custody situation. Simply were admin. rules that could not be over looked. There was a time under the right circumstances an waiver could be easily applied for during hunting season. Those days ended in the late 80's.

Most Deputies and State Troopers I worked with were not fond of people carrying weapons, esp. loaded weapons. Flat out freaked them out. Of course when you've know or attended funerals for fellow officers who'd be killed during traffic stops I could see being a little on the paranoid side.

I only worked traffic or in uniform during holiday periods for overtime pay. Probably 8-10 times a year for nearly 20 years. During which I wrote a total of less then 10 tickets. If I wrote you a ticket you earned it. Saw lots of rifles and hand guns in vehicles. Caught my attention, kept a close eye on them, but I wouldn't say it raised my blood pressure any.

But what I don't understand is why get so worked up over lawful legal guns rather than the real criminals and illegal ones. We're not the ones looking to commit crimes with our open carry or concealed guns. It's to protect ourselves from the criminals who don't respect the law. I would think law enforcement people would embrace and support us lawful citizens in our right to bear arms whether concealed or open carry. Instead of hassling us, perhaps they should be more supportive and turn their attention to the criminals on the street. We're on the same side here.

Tully Mars · 08-31-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

But what I don't understand is why get so worked up over lawful legal guns rather than the real criminals and illegal ones. We're not the ones looking to commit crimes with our open carry or concealed guns. It's to protect ourselves from the criminals who don't respect the law. I would think law enforcement people would embrace and support us lawful citizens in our right to bear arms whether concealed or open carry. Instead of hassling us, perhaps they should be more supportive and turn their attention to the criminals on the street. We're on the same side here.

Many do, many do not. LE is made up of people. People, regardless of profession, often disagree on issues. I was and still am a member of LEAP.

LEAP - Cops Say

I'd say 80% of my co-workers did not favor this organization when I joined, When I left it was closer to 60%.

I think part of your answers lies in that lawful citizens and stark raving criminals do not wear uniforms or signs letting the officer know which he/she is dealing with.

KirStang · 08-31-2008, 02:39 PM

Crompsin, you're certainly entitled to your opinions as to what is suitable as a carry gun. I cc a commander length, alloy frame 1911 in the understanding that if I ever have to use it, I'll be extremely proficient with it.

06-09-2008, 04:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	Interesting topic. How much faster is it to deploy a pistol from open carry as opposed to typical concealed carry holsters? Is the faster deploy time worth potential bad guys seeing that you are armed when they are about to start shooting the mall up, and thus taking you out first? I suppose it depends on if you think the weapon acts as a deterrent or if you want the element of surprise. For example, I know jiu-jitsu, but I would prefer bad guys only finding that out AFTER I have wrapped my arms around their neck. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

06-09-2008, 04:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
RetroGunslinger eats puppies and shits rainbows Location: An Area of Space Occupied by a Population, SC, USA	Chris, I think their logic is that it's a deterrent. In that sense, I understand it. Considering the density of violence in the news (not that that necessarily denotes an overly violent world), it makes sense that gun owners would want such confidence. Further, I think it's perfectly reasonable to carry a gun in general public places (going near a school or government building is going a little too far, however). It's within their rights, so I support it. From a fashion point of view, however, it's a little too gaudy for my taste. __________________ It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay. M.B. Keene

06-09-2008, 05:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
telekinetic zomgomgomgomgomgomg Location: Fauxenix, Azerona	I live in Phoenix. I see people open carry a couple times a week all over the place. Once I have a carry firearm that I'm happy with and have properly trained with (gun show in two weeks!), if I'm working on a project and I'm just going to run to the store or something, I'll probably just slap on a belt holster rather than put on a concealed rig. I definitely will open carry when hiking. Too much of a pain otherwise. Open carry in Arizona is legal with no paperwork, by the way. Huzzah! Edit: besides, holsters are cool! __________________ twisted no more Last edited by telekinetic; 06-09-2008 at 05:11 PM..

06-09-2008, 05:19 PM	#7 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I fully support legal open carry. However, I also believe concealed carry is more practical in many situations. I am sure open carry is a deterrant (who wants to mug someone who definately has a gun?), however, if someone does proceed with an attack, you are probably going to get shot straight away as they know you have a gun. Also, personal protection is about making sure you remain safe, and one of the best ways to do that is to blend in and keep a low profile. If you have a big ass pistol strapped to your hip for everyone to see you have definately just raised your profile. I also like concealed carry as it allows me to better control a situation that is in the process of escalating. If I feel the presence of a firearm would only make things worse, I can choose to never reveal that I have one. I can draw a concealed weapon almost as fast as one carried openly. If I lived on a ranch or elsewhere where firearms are the norm I wouldn't hesitate to carry openly. Even in Afghanistan, if I was not on a full blown combat mission, I usually chose to carry concealed. When we would go meet with afghans (some of them very questionable people) it really helped put our hosts at ease when we dropped our body armor and our only apparent weapons (M-4's) in a corner of the room. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-10-2008, 09:53 AM	#9 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Open Carry in CO is legal without permit. I'd never do it, though, because my city seems to have one of the highest percentage of "OH SHIT HE'S GOT A GUN!!! CALL THE COPS!!" idiots and I don't like being interrogated by police officers everywhere I go. In one of my gun safety classes the officer (a city police officer) was recommending that we get concealed carry permits, just he disliked as much as I did having to stop everyone open carrying to make sure they're not brandishing because someone called 911. Concealed offers me the same protection without the hassle of my misguided liberal brethren and their irrational fears. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

06-08-2008, 07:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	We open carry almost everywhere we go, the only exceptions being cop-shops, post offices, schools, etc. My Mom refuses to open carry in the grocery store, but that just means she leaves her primary behind and takes the Kel Tec .32. Other than that, it's an everyday/everywhere thing for us. Gotten a few dirty or puzzled looks, lots of questions, and more than a few "attaboy's" from passerby. Aah, the joys of living in the middle of nowhere.

06-09-2008, 03:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	"He wore the gun to a Ron Paul rally." Why does this not surprise me? I have no choice -- under CT law, even printing is considered brandishing and is grounds for permanent revocation of your carry permit. The pistol permit and carry permit are the same thing, so you can no longer legally purchase handguns in CT after that. I'd still conceal if I had the choice, though. It should be a deterrent, but with the gang activity in the area getting so bad, I wouldn't want to risk someone even thinking about stealing my gun because it could cause danger to a lot more people than just me. Maybe it's just from being in the Northeast all my life, but I can't imagine open carry being a common thing.

06-14-2008, 06:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	These have become the new packing.org resources. I really wish the guy who owned it had passed it on instead of saying "I don't feel like doing it anymore" and letting it die. http://www.usacarry.com/ http://www.handgunlaw.us/

06-24-2008, 09:52 AM	#18 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	and another one. http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/...&pageId=3.14.1 there is video in the article, yes, that is me in the first part of the segment. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

08-16-2008, 05:54 AM	#21 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	Texas billboard is up in Austin for OpenCarry.org __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

08-16-2008, 06:27 AM	#22 (permalink)
Bear Cub The Reverend Side Boob Location: Nofe Curolina	Wish we could see some of those in Houston. Seems like all of our billboards are for Mattress Giant. __________________ Living in the United Socialist States of America.

08-16-2008, 09:13 AM	#23 (permalink)
CandleInTheDark Addict Location: Where the music's loudest	Open carry smacks of brandishing to me, and in the current climate seems more of an attention grabber than a legitimate use of a defensive weapon. __________________ Where there is doubt there is freedom.

08-18-2008, 03:40 PM	#24 (permalink)
kel WARNING: FLAMMABLE Location: Ask Acetylene	I have done it. I wouldn't do it again. Life is to short to spend time having your ass kicked by the cops. __________________ "It better be funny"

08-18-2008, 05:42 PM	#26 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	We've never had a problem with the Police or Deputies here, but then we do run a gunshop on a farm in the middle of buttfuck, so it's kind-of expected. Plus there are a few other locals who do the same thing, so as long as you're not visibly intoxicated and waving the thing in the air, you probably won't get hassled up here. The only possible wrench in the works is a tourist from the city, but they're not terribly common, thankfully, and the Sheriff would probably laugh at them and tell them to calm down and get used to it. In a big city it can be a different story. Lots of cops don't know that open carry is legal, and it can be a problem if some easily-panicked waterhead calls 911. The one exception: bikers. My area gets a -lot- of bikers. Somehow, they never seem to mind the guns either.

08-18-2008, 06:12 PM	#27 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	I live in Canada so I've never really had an exposure to this type of activity and I am very fascinated. I never go into the sections of the site that debate guns or discuss them. First off I thought every post would be something negative and it is the opposite. i have no opinion either way, but i am always excited when i think a thread is going to hit one direction and it smacks me in the face! In Canada I would have to say very few people carry guns, no idea what the stat is but rare since I've never had anyone I've known or heard of second hand who carries for protection. anyway not important, but i think that if i did live in a place were people carried guns or had the right to carry i would want them out in the open where they can be a good deterrent IMO instead of all stuffed away.

08-18-2008, 06:55 PM	#28 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	In some parts of the US, such as where I live and in large parts of the American South and West, it's reasonably common. I'd say open carry's probably more common in the Western states than anywhere else, because so much of that area is rural. I'm talkin' nobody-for-100-miles-in-every-direction rural. It's not terribly common in the flatlands, and certainly not in the "Beltway," although I understand it's becoming more regular in the Vermont/New Hampshire/Maine area. Lots of folks view it as an opportunity to educate people about 2nd Amendment issues and individual Rights of all sorts, and it's certainly easier to carry openly than conceal a pistol in 100+ degree weather and remain comfortable.

08-23-2008, 06:59 PM	#32 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	I would open carry simply because it's more comfortable and more manageable. Stuffing a 5lb weight in your crotch and trying to appear nonchalant is a little difficult.

08-28-2008, 09:02 AM	#34 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Twisted Mosaic: Of course concealed carry isn't appropriate for all circumstances. If you are in a situation where it is simply assumed you are armed, it is better to have quick access (Police, etc.). But for the regular citizen, most of the time, I feel it is best not to display the weapon unnecessarily. For instance, I read a story some time back about a defensive shooting at a gun store. The store was robbed, and at some point a shot was fired at one of the employees (and missed, IIRC). Following the robbery, the robbers did things that indicated they were going to execute the employees. At that time, one of the employees drew a concealed weapon and ended the situation. Had he been wearing that weapon on his hip, he would more than likely have simply been shot at the get-go. Like I said earlier, concealed carry has it's drawbacks, but for most every day situations (in urban areas) it's best, IMHO, not to attract attention. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

08-31-2008, 02:39 PM	#40 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	Crompsin, you're certainly entitled to your opinions as to what is suitable as a carry gun. I cc a commander length, alloy frame 1911 in the understanding that if I ever have to use it, I'll be extremely proficient with it. Last edited by KirStang; 08-31-2008 at 02:47 PM..