Now in Indiana: Lifetime Carry Permits - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MSD · 07-06-2006, 08:01 AM

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Indiana is the first state in the nation to offer residents lifetime handgun permits under a new law that went into effect this month -- a move hailed by Second Amendment supporters and blasted by gun-control advocates.

The law, which also increases the cost of obtaining or renewing a four-year license, went on the books Saturday. The change is expected to bring in more money to the state and the Indiana State Police.
State Police Superintendent Paul Whitesell announced details of House Enrolled Act 1176 at a news conference Wednesday, saying the law will streamline the process to get a permit for law-abiding gun owners. His agency oversees the issuance of permits.
Residents do not need a permit to buy handguns or other firearms but must have one to carry or transport a pistol. State Police officials said Indiana has about 288,000 active handgun permits. Permits are good for four years, but now gun owners have the option of obtaining a lifetime permit instead.
State Sen. Johnny Nugent, R-Lawrenceburg, and State Rep. Troy A. Woodruff, R-Vincennes, who carried the bill in their respective chambers, appeared with Whitesell to tout the new law.
"This is a day we are very proud of," said Woodruff. "We are looking out for the law-abiding citizens of Indiana. If they follow the law, they shouldn't have to go through the hassle of renewing a permit every four years."
Nugent, who presented an application for the state's first lifetime handgun permit, said he had heard positive comments about the new law from people across the state.
"Hopefully, this will encourage other states to follow suit," he said.
Ashley Varner, spokeswoman for the National Rifle Association, said her organization is "very pleased" with the Indiana law.
Gun-permit holders "are among the most law-abiding citizens in the state," she said.
But Peter Hamm, communications director for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, called the law "ludicrous."
"I would presume the state legislature is going to do the same with driver's licenses and business licenses, because there is no reason anybody should have to go through the hassle of being checked out every four years," he said.
The new law makes Indiana the first state to offer lifetime licenses to carry a handgun, Hamm said.

Other states
Varner said no permits are needed to carry handguns -- concealed or otherwise -- in Vermont and Alaska, while Illinois and Wisconsin bar residents from carrying concealed weapons.
The remaining 46 states require some type of license to carry handguns, with most of those states issuing permits for periods of two to 10 years.
In Indiana, license fees are split between local law enforcement agencies and the State Police, with the State Police receiving the majority of the income.
The State Police issue about 80,000 licenses a year, generating about $1.1 million for the state's general fund. About a quarter of those seeking the licenses are first-time applicants.
If all applicants sought lifetime licenses, rather than four-year licenses, revenue would increase to about $4 million for the first four years, said Whitesell. However, he said, not all gun owners are expected to seek the lifetime licenses.
Officials said they could not predict the projected revenue after the first four years because the majority of current owners could be licensed for life, and that would cut income from renewals.
Whitesell said the law allows the State Police to use any annual revenue above $1.1 million generated by the new licenses to create an electronic application system, a central depository on criminal history or an electronic log to track sales of drugs containing ephedrine or pseudophedrine.

Who will check
Hamm of the Brady Campaign, which advocates for stricter gun-control laws, said he has concerns about the ability of law enforcement to track and react to crimes that people commit after they obtain lifetime permits. And, he argued, the "hassle" of having to renew permits is overstated.
"Responsible gun owners understand that some gun owners ought to be checked out every four years," he said.
State Police Capt. Doug Shelton, acting commander of the agency's records section, said State Police will continue to check on gun permit holders whenever they are notified of an arrest, conviction or other action that could limit or preclude a person's right to have a permit. He said that is already the practice for those who hold four-year permits.
The NRA's Varner added that people who make the effort to obtain a permit are not the ones to worry about.
"They're the ones you should trust," she said. "They've gone through the hoops and background checks. They're the good people."

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...78/1006/NEWS01

Sanity regarding gun control reaches a legislative body? Didn't think I'd see it in my lifetime. My opinions on gun control are well known, I'm obviously in favor of this.

Now if we could just geta a national carry permit instituted ...

dksuddeth · 07-06-2006, 08:38 AM

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Hamm of the Brady Campaign, which advocates for stricter gun-control laws, said he has concerns about the ability of law enforcement to track and react to crimes that people commit after they obtain lifetime permits. And, he argued, the "hassle" of having to renew permits is overstated.
"Responsible gun owners understand that some gun owners ought to be checked out every four years," he said.

It's amazing how Mr. Hamm and all the other gun control advocates completely avoid the fact that licensed permit holders don't commit violent crimes with their weapons.

The_Jazz · 07-06-2006, 09:39 AM

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Originally Posted by dksuddeth

It's amazing how Mr. Hamm and all the other gun control advocates completely avoid the fact that licensed permit holders don't commit violent crimes with their weapons.

Sorry, but I can't accept blanket statements like that. I am 100% positive that licened permit holders have committed violent crimes with their weapons. I will even go so far as to say that they have done it in the last couple of days.

I see this as akin to issuing a irrevokable drivers license. As anyone who's ever been in a farmers market in Florida knows, the elderly often confuse the brake and the gas pedals and go plowing through crowds. Thank you, but I'd appreciate it if there were some basic level of competency required at least every few years. Just because you're able to demonstrate that you're responsible enough to carry a gun now doesn't mean that you'll have the same ability in 2 or 3 years. This is just a bad idea.

Redlemon · 07-06-2006, 10:03 AM

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Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I see this as akin to issuing a irrevokable drivers license... As anyone who's ever been in a farmers market in Florida knows, the elderly often confuse the brake and the gas pedals and go plowing through crowds. Thank you, but I'd appreciate it if there were some basic level of competency required at least every few years. Just because you're able to demonstrate that you're responsible enough to carry a gun now doesn't mean that you'll have the same ability in 2 or 3 years. This is just a bad idea.

I was going to say something along those lines as well, then I noticed in the original article...

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"I would presume the state legislature is going to do the same with driver's licenses and business licenses, because there is no reason anybody should have to go through the hassle of being checked out every four years," he said.

dksuddeth · 07-06-2006, 11:11 AM

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Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Sorry, but I can't accept blanket statements like that. I am 100% positive that licened permit holders have committed violent crimes with their weapons. I will even go so far as to say that they have done it in the last couple of days.

There are exceptions to every rule, jazz. My statement wasn't meant to say that every single permit holder never commits a violent crime, much like not all elderly people are senile. Overall, I'd say that over 95% of people with permits are decent law abiding people, but to hear the gun control groups talk, you would think that 95% of permit holders are always committing violent crimes.

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Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Just because you're able to demonstrate that you're responsible enough to carry a gun now doesn't mean that you'll have the same ability in 2 or 3 years. This is just a bad idea.

this is always said when any state passes a law that relaxes the gun laws currently in effect and, to date, none of the 'doomsday' blood in the street predictions have come true.

NoSoup · 07-06-2006, 02:35 PM

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while Illinois and Wisconsin bar residents from carrying concealed weapons.

NoSoup is very sad

dksuddeth · 07-06-2006, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by NoSoup

NoSoup is very sad

you guys up in WI still have open carry, right?
Illinois is the sorry state for carry laws, since there are none.

ziadel · 07-06-2006, 07:13 PM

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Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Now if we could just geta a national carry permit instituted ...

bad idea, too easy for the antis to get the process declared whatever and trhen that woul;d be the end of it, except now they would have even MORE ammo to go after it at the state level.

Jimellow · 07-06-2006, 08:37 PM

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Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Now if we could just geta a national carry permit instituted ...

If such a law were passed/instituted, I'm quite certain I would leave the country.

It's a very scary thought to me. I see angry people every day, and if they had guns, they would use them. And I am excluding drivers and their road rage.

Give an angry person a gun and they will kill people. Without one, they might get into a fistfight or draw a knife, but at least the aspect of physical combat will defray some confrontations, and also present a more even playing field for the people involved if a situation does turn to blows.

I don't like guns, am not comfortable around them, and consider the notion of people carrying concealed firearms around in society very frightening.

For me it has nothing to do with statistics for or against concealed weapons. I live in a society filled with impatient and angry citizens, and the notion of giving them the means to kill instantly from a distance terrifies me.

dksuddeth · 07-07-2006, 01:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Jimellow

For me it has nothing to do with statistics for or against concealed weapons. I live in a society filled with impatient and angry citizens, and the notion of giving them the means to kill instantly from a distance terrifies me.

you do realize that at this very moment, thousands of people in PA carry concealed weapons and with the exception of philadelphia, carrying a gun openly is quite legal without having to get any kind of license?

In fact, only 8 states prohibit open carry while the 42 others allow it, most without a license.

MSD · 07-07-2006, 08:23 AM

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Originally Posted by Jimellow

If such a law were passed/instituted, I'm quite certain I would leave the country.

It's a very scary thought to me. I see angry people every day, and if they had guns, they would use them. And I am excluding drivers and their road rage.

Give an angry person a gun and they will kill people. Without one, they might get into a fistfight or draw a knife, but at least the aspect of physical combat will defray some confrontations, and also present a more even playing field for the people involved if a situation does turn to blows.

I don't like guns, am not comfortable around them, and consider the notion of people carrying concealed firearms around in society very frightening.

For me it has nothing to do with statistics for or against concealed weapons. I live in a society filled with impatient and angry citizens, and the notion of giving them the means to kill instantly from a distance terrifies me.

National permit means it's issued by the Federal government rather than the state. All of the Pennsylvanians who have state permits would get them from the Feds instead of the state gov't. One permit for all states as opposed to a different permit for each state that doesn't honor any of the ones you have.

Jimellow · 07-07-2006, 08:49 AM

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Originally Posted by dksuddeth

you do realize that at this very moment, thousands of people in PA carry concealed weapons and with the exception of philadelphia, carrying a gun openly is quite legal without having to get any kind of license?

In fact, only 8 states prohibit open carry while the 42 others allow it, most without a license.

Nope, I was not aware of this, but it provides yet another reason for my desire to get out of PA and move somewhere else..

Do you have a link to information regarding the legality of carrying firearms, concealed and otherwise, in PA?

Thanks.

The_Jazz · 07-07-2006, 10:23 AM

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Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

National permit means it's issued by the Federal government rather than the state. All of the Pennsylvanians who have state permits would get them from the Feds instead of the state gov't. One permit for all states as opposed to a different permit for each state that doesn't honor any of the ones you have.

This is strictly a local issue, and I'm surprised that conservatives want MORE government meddling in local affairs. A state and/or local government should be able to decide who qualifies for a gun permit and under what circumstances.

dksuddeth · 07-07-2006, 11:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Jimellow

Nope, I was not aware of this, but it provides yet another reason for my desire to get out of PA and move somewhere else..

Do you have a link to information regarding the legality of carrying firearms, concealed and otherwise, in PA?

Thanks.

State Constitution Article I, Section 21

The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6109.html

This link is a listing of all the PA firearms codes. In it you will find that a carry license is only required in Philadelphia OR carrying openly in a vehicle. To carry a concealed weapon anywhere requires a license to carry.

what kind of state gun laws do you consider makes a state 'safe' and I can give you the particulars.?

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Originally Posted by The_Jazz

This is strictly a local issue, and I'm surprised that conservatives want MORE government meddling in local affairs. A state and/or local government should be able to decide who qualifies for a gun permit and under what circumstances.

Since the courts have seen fit to attempt to drop the second amendment from the bill of rights, we have had to resort to other means to maintain it, thus the national carry permit, or what we call the 'reciprocity' bill. There are currently two house bills for this. H.R. 4547 and H.R. 1243

Jimellow · 07-07-2006, 11:40 AM

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Originally Posted by dksuddeth

State Constitution Article I, Section 21

The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP7/18PA6109.html

This link is a listing of all the PA firearms codes. In it you will find that a carry license is only required in Philadelphia OR carrying openly in a vehicle. To carry a concealed weapon anywhere requires a license to carry.

what kind of state gun laws do you consider makes a state 'safe' and I can give you the particulars.?

Thanks for the link.

I don't like guns, and am by no means a "gun person." I am not familiar with the laws, regulations, or permits required to use/carry them, but the information that they are so easily carried is disheartening to me.

I will honestly admit to being jaded to the point that I suspected those not in law enforcement and carrying handguns in public were likely carrying them illegally.

dksuddeth · 07-07-2006, 12:09 PM

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Originally Posted by Jimellow

Thanks for the link.

I don't like guns, and am by no means a "gun person." I am not familiar with the laws, regulations, or permits required to use/carry them, but the information that they are so easily carried is disheartening to me.

I will honestly admit to being jaded to the point that I suspected those not in law enforcement and carrying handguns in public were likely carrying them illegally.

You're welcome. currently in this country, only one single state has prohibited carry for non law enforcement personnel, that state is Illinois(exceptions are chicago alderman). The other 49 are either open carry, concealed carry, and sometimes even both. To get an idea of the states carry laws you can check out handgunlaw.us or opencarry.org. Those two have the most current maps for carry laws.

Painted · 07-07-2006, 11:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Jimellow

Thanks for the link.

I don't like guns, and am by no means a "gun person." I am not familiar with the laws, regulations, or permits required to use/carry them, but the information that they are so easily carried is disheartening to me.

I will honestly admit to being jaded to the point that I suspected those not in law enforcement and carrying handguns in public were likely carrying them illegally.

Unfortunately (for you at least), we can't just ban guns. It's part of our Constitution, and so long as the Constitution stands, people will be able to buy guns and (in most areas) carry them around.

If you don't like it, move to Canada. I hear they have some pretty tight gun laws.

Jimellow · 07-08-2006, 11:51 AM

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Originally Posted by dksuddeth

You're welcome. currently in this country, only one single state has prohibited carry for non law enforcement personnel, that state is Illinois(exceptions are chicago alderman). The other 49 are either open carry, concealed carry, and sometimes even both. To get an idea of the states carry laws you can check out handgunlaw.us or opencarry.org. Those two have the most current maps for carry laws.

How intensive is the process of obtaining a permit to carry a handgun?

I enjoy hiking... would I be able to obtain a gun permit on the basis that it may be needed for self defense in the woods? Is a valid reason required in order to obtain a permit, or is it more of an issue of a person having a stable mindset and a clean history?

I have willingly been ignorant regarding gun laws, and specifically carry permits, as it generally isn't something that interests me, nor something I necessarily support, yet discovering that most states do allow non-enforcement personel to carry firearms was a bit of a wake up call for me.

I realize all guns can't be banned, and that is also a debate for another topic or time, and one I am not particularly interested in, due to partly to my ignorance regarding the matter, and also the fact that I am ridiculously biased in my support against gun carry laws.. Despite this, I think a "catching up" is in order, and thus am certainly interested in the process by which gun permits are obtained, etc.

Thanks again.

dksuddeth · 07-08-2006, 01:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Jimellow

How intensive is the process of obtaining a permit to carry a handgun?

It is all dependent upon the state. Some states do not require permits for open carry, some do. Two states don't require permits for open OR concealed carry (Vermont and Alaska).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimellow

I enjoy hiking... would I be able to obtain a gun permit on the basis that it may be needed for self defense in the woods? Is a valid reason required in order to obtain a permit, or is it more of an issue of a person having a stable mindset and a clean history?

PA does not require a permit at all to carry a handgun openly, except in Philadelphia. You can carry while hiking without a problem, just check your states firearms code so you can be aware of what places you would be prohibited from carrying a handgun.

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Originally Posted by Jimellow

I have willingly been ignorant regarding gun laws, and specifically carry permits, as it generally isn't something that interests me, nor something I necessarily support, yet discovering that most states do allow non-enforcement personel to carry firearms was a bit of a wake up call for me.

I realize all guns can't be banned, and that is also a debate for another topic or time, and one I am not particularly interested in, due to partly to my ignorance regarding the matter, and also the fact that I am ridiculously biased in my support against gun carry laws.. Despite this, I think a "catching up" is in order, and thus am certainly interested in the process by which gun permits are obtained, etc.

Thanks again.

Those states that don't require permits for open carry obviously have no training requirements. The states that require permits for carrying, whether open or concealed, generally have somewhat different requirements but usually have a minimum amount of classroom hours to go teach gun safety as well as the laws of that state. They also require time on the range to be proficient.

You are welcome for the information. If I may make a suggestion about your bias, instead of relying on news media and slanted view points try gaining knowledge of both sides of the issue. Many people simply look at the numerous reports of gun violence and decide that people shouldn't carry. There are many more people that carry within the law and don't break the law.

Good Luck

Jimellow · 07-08-2006, 03:17 PM

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Originally Posted by dksuddeth

PA does not require a permit at all to carry a handgun openly, except in Philadelphia. You can carry while hiking without a problem, just check your states firearms code so you can be aware of what places you would be prohibited from carrying a handgun.

This is very interesting to me.. So I could basically get a holster and gun and wear it openly in PA, providing it was outside a prohibited area? The police wouldn't stop me, and even if they did, I'd be fine? Also, what areas are generally prohibited? Is the list long or brief?

If this is true, I am surprised that more people aren't doing it..

Also, is this a recent change, or has it been like this for awhile?

Quote:

You are welcome for the information. If I may make a suggestion about your bias, instead of relying on news media and slanted view points try gaining knowledge of both sides of the issue. Many people simply look at the numerous reports of gun violence and decide that people shouldn't carry. There are many more people that carry within the law and don't break the law.

Good Luck

My bias is based heavily on my upbringing and the views/beliefs of my parents. The fact that a carry permit isn't even required in PA will blow my dad's mind when I tell him, as he has always seemed to assume that a permit was certainly required, and had very tight restrictions. He and I were both very misled in that we thought only those in law enforcement and related jobs could legally carry firearms.

I generally tend to be very open to all views on a particular issue before entering it, and this is primarily why I don't debate/discuss the gun issue heavily with people. Being ignorant while attempting to intelligently discuss any topic is a trait I really dislike in people, and thus I tend to try quite hard to avoid doing it myself.

Again, many thanks for the replies. This thread has been very enlightening for me.

dksuddeth · 07-08-2006, 04:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Jimellow

This is very interesting to me.. So I could basically get a holster and gun and wear it openly in PA, providing it was outside a prohibited area? The police wouldn't stop me, and even if they did, I'd be fine? Also, what areas are generally prohibited? Is the list long or brief?

If this is true, I am surprised that more people aren't doing it..

Also, is this a recent change, or has it been like this for awhile?

As I understand it, because it is in the state constitution, open carry has been legal since it made its state constitution. Although it is a constitutional right, open carry isn't seen alot for two reasons....1) most people, like yourself, just aren't aware that they have that right and 2) in larger urban settings you're likely to be met with a few gawks, stares, and 911 'man with a gun' calls to the police because people either aren't aware it's legal or because they are 'alarmed' at the sight of someone other than a cop wearing a gun. When the 'man with a gun' calls happen, cops respond and you can be harrassed by the cops, even though its legal.
Places that are prohibited can be found Here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimellow

My bias is based heavily on my upbringing and the views/beliefs of my parents. The fact that a carry permit isn't even required in PA will blow my dad's mind when I tell him, as he has always seemed to assume that a permit was certainly required, and had very tight restrictions. He and I were both very misled in that we thought only those in law enforcement and related jobs could legally carry firearms.

As many people are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimellow

I generally tend to be very open to all views on a particular issue before entering it, and this is primarily why I don't debate/discuss the gun issue heavily with people. Being ignorant while attempting to intelligently discuss any topic is a trait I really dislike in people, and thus I tend to try quite hard to avoid doing it myself.

Again, many thanks for the replies. This thread has been very enlightening for me.

Understood and you're welcome.