spectre

At this point, is anyone surprised by his antics?

I'm tired of turning on ESPN and seeing him acting like a spoiled child, whining over everything. With all of his talent, I feel he's more of a drain on a team than he's a help.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

MontanaXVI

before bashing, regardless of his actions regarding the contract dispute, shouldn't we find out more information about what exactly took place before we start saying it was a temper tantrum.

After all, it does say he was asked to leave the camp, and he has not been practicing because of the groin which has been an issue for years even in his last few seasons in SF he had the problems and missed some time. Reid may have been upset with him missing time and thinking he was faking it so he called him out, TO might have gotten upset with him since this has been an issue for him in the past, we just do not know.


I can and cannot support him at the same time, being a niners fan I loved his play style and talent and thought it a bad move to let him go no matter what "troubles he caused", it is damn hard to replace a specimen such as him and his talent.

HE did sign a deal and should have to stick to it, but while everyone knocks on him, I hear little to no one knocking on Hines Ward who no matter how you break it down is pulling the same shit, he signed a deal which paid him nothing now after his performance he wants a new deal but no one rags on him because he does not make noise like TO does.

On the other hand I have to kick him a little bit due to the fact that he did sign that deal, he should have to play it out. Hard place to be in, seeing both sides of the argument, hard to take a side on this one.

__________________
Spank you very much

MikeSty

I don't really give a crap what TO does or does not - I really DO care that the media keeps blowing up every little thing he does every five minutes. They've completely made up the drama around him.

I hate that Rosenhaus guy too. He's pretty creepy. Typical attourney i guess.

MikeSty

Exactly, and even if ESPN knew I doubt they'd tell us. I'm no bigtime TO fan, I don't like his attitude and I don't mean to defend him, but I strongly believe that the media has a bone to pick with him.

spectre

The story was just updated with more details (link):

From what they're saying on ESPN, he was confronted by players in the meeting about skipping out on the event, and just decided to leave.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

radioguy

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

he is a drama queen. he just thrives for the attention and he's getting it. i can't wait for something else to become news worthy.

pan6467

Here's an idea: hold him in breach of contract, fine and suspend him for the season.

Until the owners get tough on the players and hold them accountable, they will be nothing but million dollar crybabies.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MontanaXVI

again I am a TO fan as I liked him when he was a niner.

so I have to ask pan, you feel the same way about Hines Ward right? He too is holding out for a new deal breach of contract done for the season with TO and see you next season?


The updates on the TO story do make it a bit more interesting, was the autograph signing a mandatory thing or voluntary? The media does have a bone to pick with him no doubt, but I also see both sides of it and he brings most of the shit upon himself.

__________________
Spank you very much

spectre

To me, the main difference between Hines Ward and TO is that TO desperately wanted this contract, despite being advised against taking it. He had the opportunity to get a better contract, but he wanted to be with the Eagles. Now he wants to change the contract that he started a major battle for last season. I don't think he'll ever be happy no matter what he gets. Don't get me wrong, I think he's one of the most talented players in the NFL, but he doesn't seem to have all the lights on upstairs. He seems to want to sabotage any team success just to help himself. He tears down his quarterbacks, pisses off his coaches, and I don't see a lot of teams wanting to have someone that alienates teammates and coaches, regardless of their talent level.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

spectre

Yet another update:

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

pan6467

ANY player in any sport that signs a contract and refuses to live up to it (i.e. autograph signings, public appearances, MONEY, whatever), should be held in breach of contract and suspended for 1 year.

I am tired of these multi-millionaire asshole players getting away with BS and it's time the owners stand up and put thye smack down.

If I did this shit at my job, I'd be fired and blackballed from my business. Hell, I've been fired for less when I was younger.

I'm just tired of hearing and reading crap about players holding out for more money, demanding trades, crying about the fan treatment, not showing up at public events, basically not living up to their contractual obligations.

It's BS. If the player cannot honor their contractual obligations, obligations they knew they would have before signing the contract.... they should be fined and suspended and the league should uphold the suspension and not say a word.

Then the league should take away the agent's licensure to negotiate in that sport. I don't care how many other clients that agent has, if Rosenhaus allows (and probably supports) TO to not live up to his contract then he is aiding and abetting illegal behavior.

However, if the agent can prove he is trying to deal with the client and get him to live up to the contract OR the agent drops the client, then the agent shows he honors the contract and his license is ok.

Doesn't matter the player or sport or agent..... breach the contract get suspended without pay.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Dengar

I also dont like when players holdout but i wouldnt go this far. You also have to understand that the nfl owners have almost all the leverage in almost every negotiating situation. The NFL is setup so that a team can sign a guy to a deal, backload it so they only pay him a small percentage of him in the first year, than release him. Contracts are so one sided its not even funny.

But in this case with T.O i agree. He signed a 7 year deal not one year ago and is now complaining. He made his bed, now he has to lie in it.

spongy

Owens said the fans have been great, but he didn't sign autographs at the tent because he was rehabbing his groin.

Ewwwww, what does he sign with?

__________________
The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.

Stephen King

djtestudo

Heh heh heh heh...

Almighty Football Gods,

I pray for your forgiveness for ever asking for TO to be brought to Baltimore. Every day he proves why we all hold you all in the reverence we do. I thank you for not answering the prayers of Baltimore and allowing him to go elsewhere. Amen.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

pan6467

If the NFL owners have such the heavy hand then why are the players signing.

Jiminy crickets, that's a poor excuse. I can almost guarantee every single poster here would sacrifice a few years of their life to get paid a couple hundred - million dollars a year to play football.

Even if the player makes league minimum for 1 season and he's out, he's set for life and with the right investments will never have to work again.

I don't feel bad, these players make so much it's hard for me to feel sorry for them. They get college scholarships, are treated to all kinds of benefits because they are good at a game and they want to cry how owners are unfair and they can't live on what they make...... have them try pumping gas or working in a factory for $10 an hour with no benefits. Then let's see what they say.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

djtestudo

The one problem with that logic is that professional sports operates on a completely different economic scale from the rest of the world.

Fans are willing to pay the money to watch the players, so the players want, and do deserve, their share.

I actually have no problem with players holding out. If a team can cut a player after a bad year, why can't a player ask for more after a good year? Even TO

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

pan6467

They sign their name to a contract and breach it..... then screw them, no matter WHO they are or what sport. (Even if it were Lebron, Manning, Pujols whoever.)

Now if they don't have a contract and want to hold out that's a different story (Braylon Edwards etc.).

But personally, I'd rather watch people who play for the love of the game and not the money.

I mean how much is enough.... and to say owners make fortunes while players starve and can be released at any time is BS.

Pay me a couple hundred thou or a mill and release me after a season.... I'll make some good investments and live comfortably the rest of my life.... as will my kids.

The owners have the right to make money. Baseball is a great example of owning a team and it being a money pit.... the salaries are too far out of what the teams bring in. And to say don't pay it is foolish because you need fans to fill the stadium or no matter how low the payroll the owner loses money.

Esp. Baseball where the owners pay millions to keep the minor system going, and develop players to be stars and 5-7 years later just before they hit their prime they leave for more money? Where's the loyalty to the teams and fans?

I just can't get into the "break the bank" mentalities that TO, ARod and such have. Sure you get the highest salaries but then the team can't afford to compete.

I used to believe players deserved the money, but when I saw they kept getting greedier and had no loyalty to the teams that signed them and paid millions to make them stars, I changed my mind real fast.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

djtestudo

In other words, the owners should be allowed to ignore signed contracts and be as greedy as they want, but the players, who the fans are actually PAYING TO SEE, should not?

The specific numbers don't matter, because of the economic disparity. Obviously all of us would love to be able to do what the players do for the minimum salary. However, I'd be willing to bet that once you are actually IN that system, you would change your mind pretty quick.

I never said that players are "starving". The point is that in the marketplace of the NFL, if a team has the right to completely ignore a signed contract, why is it wrong for the player to do so as well?

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

spectre

I would have to argue that the Collective Bargaining Agreement allows for players to be cut. If the players have a problem with this system, they should take it to the players' union and have it changed in the next CBA. Otherwise, they don't have a leg to stand on.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

pan6467

I'm sorry, teams honor their contracts. If a player knows he can get cut next season then he better play his ass off.

The numbers do matter, the disparity does matter. Ask the Royals who will never make enough to contend because they can't afford to keep the players they developed.

The leagues have to understand they are all subsidies and they ALL need to make money.

To say the players make the teams their money is only partially true....... If a team can't contend because they have too much in payroll to players, no matter who those players are the fans won't come.

Ask the Rangers when they signed ARod. Ask Boston soon, ask the Yankees.

You have to sign someone with marquee value hoping to draw fans in but you can't break the bank and unfortunately to get a player that can truly help you have to break the bank to the point you can't compete.

Very few teams if any can have a high payroll and make money.

AND AGAIN THE OWNERS DESERVE TO MAKE MONEY.... NOT JUST THE PLAYERS.

It's the same as any businees, the workers are the ones making the product NOT the owners, yet the owners have the right to make money and make a profit..... Why is that not acceptable for people who defend athletes? It's the same concept.... the owners have to pay for insurance, upkeep, advertising, front office, sales, and so on.

Far more than just salaries involved and yet people still believe the athletes can break the bank..... yet, elsewhere workers shouldn't make that much.

Teachers, police, firemen, are far more important than athletes.... why don't we pay them what they deserve? At any time taxes can be cut and they lose their jobs.

(God, I'm sounding like a republican now.)

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

I need to address this one.

How are the owners not living up to their contracts? If the player is in breach (sitting out, not attending public events, not living up to whatever), how is ownership suspending them for not honoring the contract a breach on ownership's part?

If a player in the NFL knows he can be cut..... then why not play his ass off and show he deserves his money?

Look what guaranteed contracts did to MLB. How many players get huge contracts only to start getting injured and missing huge portions of the season, while the team suffers?

Does Barry Bonds say, "I didn't play this year, here's your money back SF."? Hell no.

Does Jim Thome say it to Philly?

Did Giambi go to NY and say "hey, I'm not producing the way you needed me to when you signed me, so here's a portion of the money back."?

Hell no.

Does Duece Staley say, "hey I'm missing 4 games this year, here's 1/4 of my salary."?

The owners take the risk when they sign the players...... the very LEAST the players can do is honor it to the best of their ability.

If they don't.... then see ya have our refund of your salary this year in the mail while you sit at home for the season.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

djtestudo

Then how come players get cut two years into six/seven-year contracts? That is not honoring contracts. Also, you are ignoring those who get cut due to injury. If you got hurt on the job, do you think your company could get away with simply firing you?

You do understand the differences between baseball and football, correct?

I'm not sure what this means.

Then the teams made poor decisions in signing players. Alos, this goes back to the difference between baseball and football.

Ask anyone on the street about the differences between baseball and football.

That is completely incorrect, ESPECIALLY in football.

Football has a salary cap.

But do they deserve to be greedy at the expense of the players?

You are correct in that the owners should be allowed to make money. I have said nothing different, especially considering THAT isn't the issue.

Differences between professional sports and the real world.

Unless people are voluntaraly paying $50 a pop to watch teachers teach or firefighters fight fires, there is absolutely no corrollation.

And you are definately NOT sounding like a Republican, at least not a conservative one.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

djtestudo

The owners also don't say, "Hey kid, you outperformed all expectations. Here's a large raise to show you your true value."

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Cross-Over

Owners don't have break the bank when signing players. It is their decision to do so. I don't want to here any shit about not being able to complete if they don't, because the Athletics and Twins have excelled the last few years with average payrolls. The Phoenix Suns did great this year with an average payroll. The NY Knicks were not one of 16 teams to make the playoffs, despite having the highest payroll in the NBA.

I don't think contracts should be fully guaranteed in MLB or the NBA, but if any of the 4 major sports leagues should have guaranteed contracts, it should be the NFL. The average playing career of an NFL player is shorter than any other league, and I speculate that the severity of injuries in the NFL is worse than any other major sport. The CBA in the NFL doesn't allow guaranteed contracts, but this leads to long negotiations and holdouts because contracts have to be loaded with signing bonuses and incentives that can be achieved early so players can get some guaranteed money.

I don't like guaranteed contracts, and I don't like that owners can cut a player at any time. Neither is fair to the opposing party. Players have leverage because their services are wanted. If the owners wanted to, they could cut the player and let him walk instead of renegotiating. It is easy for us to say that NFL players should honor their contracts and take it up with the union later, but this is not a typical profession. Because of ESPN and other media outlets, we are privy to salary and contractual information that in any other profession is not made public. So it is not fair to make those comparisons.

Owners don't have the right to make money, they have the opportunity. They bought the team, nobody forced them to do so. Nearly every single owner in pro sports is an owner of various other businesses, or owned other business before owning their team. If their team is a money pit, then sell. If their team is not bringing in what they are paying in salary, then sell. Nobody forced them to own the team, and nobody is forcing them to remain as an owner. Not all businesses run smoothly or are successful.

pan6467

Football is different, but not much you still have players like TO not living up to their contracts expecting the team to break the bank for him and screw everyone else over.

And yes sitting out, temper tantrums and so on effect the rest of the team and it's BS he signed the contract he should live up to it. End of discussion.

Yes, my rant is more about baseball because I know baseball far far better than football. But contracts are contracts and no matter what they need to be upheld.

BTW I sound like a Republican in that I support management moreso than the workers in this situation.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

nreece

Yeah, but wouldn't you all still take him on your fantasy team!