There used to be a segment in all of the UFC DVD's called "On the Mat with Marc Laimon". In it, Laimon breaks down and explains various jui-jitsu submissions. It really makes the casual observer aware of the subtleties of the ground game, and the tremendous amount of damage that can be inflicted.

You should be able to find them on the torrent sites

Aaah, World Combat League... the only MMA people that know how to throw a proper hook/round/sidekick. Gives me wood.

It is good to watch and I like the no passivity rule so it keeps the action going. It is nice to see the kicks and punches with proper technique.

He fought Herbert Slade, a Maori from New Zealand, in1883.

There is a difference from the racist statements that Sullivan made to the reality. I dont deny he was a racist and in many ways not a likeable man, but he wasnt a coward.

And since when is a half-Maori/half-Irish New Zealander like Slade a black man? Fuck, someone tell the Kiwis next time they're doing the Hakka!

You're even more ignorant of people's ethnicity than you are of boxing, if that's possible.

You are holding boxing up as somehow representative of honour and manliness, yet in the same breath put forward a racist, drunken, and cowardly John L Sullivan as a paragon of boxing.

Sullivan was afraid to fight a black man - whether he was physically afraid of getting a beating (maybe), or whether he was afraid of adverse publicity (probably), it is evident he was afraid. What he was afraid of is immaterial.

Cyber Boxing Zone -- Herbert A. "Maori" Slade

You said
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/image...rtSlade-FP.JPG
Slade is obviously not a black fighter, so this is just more grasping at straws.

Sullivan was to some degree a racist, a drunkard, I wont deny that.

But look at his record, how can you call him a coward?

I and no other man who is living now has seen Sullivan fight in the flesh... but from the historians I have read he did take on black and white fighters in his early days touring the country fighting all comers. He had 100's of fights in those days that didnt go on his recod. His later comments were made around the storm of publicity that Jack Johnson (the greatest all round figther in history in my opinion) created. Stupid they may have been, in the context of a racist age (where national mainstream newspapers would freely use the word "nigger") they certainly were, but a coward they do not make.

Jim Jeffries also claimed he was too honourable to fight a black man, but when the money was right he had no objections - although he was soundly beaten in any event. In the same situation John L would have taken the money... but even as a young man with all of his strength, I dont think he could have knocked Jack out.

John L also in fact signed to fighter George Godfrey but the fight fell through for money reasons. (who was most certainly black, not just in ethnicity but also skin colour)

Slade was not white (if you think that Maori consider themselves to be white ask some people of that race) - I guess if he isnt black either that leaves him somewhat stranded.

I dont at all deny that John L used either his own racism or other peoples to duck fights against dangerous men like Peter Jackson when he could earn more fighting whites. He used racism or at least tolerated it to maintain his position. To call him a coward shows you know nothing about the fight game. Do you think John L's 75 round fight against Kilraine shows his cowardice? Anyone who gets into a ring for any kind of combat sport has more courage than the average man. I should thinking fighting two hours in the mud for the right to call yourself the toughest son of a bitch in the room should be proof of one's heart. Both under London rules and Queensbury rules John L took on all comers.

Jack Johnson, ludicrously, was called racist by some people for not fighting Sam Langford a third time (despite having beaten him once easily and once having a rough exhibition fight with him) - the fact was that Jack knew he could get paid 10 times as much for fighting a white tomato can as he could a tough black man like Langford.

Racism existing in the age of many of the great sportsman of our times... it affected them all in some way(Ty Cobb was a racist - and still the greatest baseball player of all time). I dont excuse John L, anymore than I excuse Jack Dempsey (who also drew the colour line in his career)... in both cases these actions diminish them as men. But neither Dempsey or John L was a coward.

See my quote above from the article above, it's proves you're either lying, or you can't read, or you're just plain ignorant to what John L. Sullivan himself wrote, it's right there in palin text, no matter what you say, again though just to help you out, I'll quote it here:

There it is SF, no matter what excuses you make or what you claim to have read, the man himself said it and with your record of twisting facts in this thread I'll take John L. Sullivan's word over yours.

But another thing, given your example of Brock Lesnar being an actor, I must also assume that Slade was nothing more than an actor given this on his record:
Cyber Boxing Zone -- Herbert A. "Maori" Slade
Seriously? You see the world as only black and white?
Wow contradict your own earlier statements much? Got to remember what you've typed earlier mate, we'll use it against you later, I seem to recall MMA fighters being called "cowards" by you quite a bit in this and other threads.
Again more grasping at straws, or as I like to say, more throwing shit at the wall and hoping something eventually sticks.

Slade was trained by Jem Mace (probably the first great sportsman)... no one who spent any time sparring with Jem Mace is going to be a complete mug. Jem Mace was the father of scientific boxing, a master. He could probably lick the equivalent weighgt (supper middle probably) lbs for lbs boxing champion and MMA champion on the same night if he was alive today. Without exageration I would say "the gypsy" was the equal first greatest sportsman of the 19th century (the other being WG Grace)

To be clear, I dont deny that John L said he had never fought a black man, but I think he was lying when he made that statement.

John L may have been racist, certainly was a drunk, certainly was a spendrift and a bully... but by God how can anyone call this man a coward?

You can think he's lying all you like, he still said it, in fuckin print in the NY Times, your OPINION if he's lying is completely irrelevant.

Slade was still nothing more than an actor with wrestling on his record, unless your a hypocrite as well, I mean if Lesnar was an 'actor' for being a wrestler, certainly Slade was the same thing for engaging in wrestling.

The fact I know something about the guys history and have read most books written about him means something.

Slade was more than an actor when he stepped into the ring with a man as fierce as John L

Whether he was a great fighter or not, the point is that he wasnt white. I dont know is the North American posters here know who the Maori are, but I can assure you that the are very proud and tough people... it is not just a "county" of NZ - these are men who have maintained their cultural identity over centuries and who taught the English many lessons in the art of war. And they dont consider themselves as "white" and neiher would John L have done.

You apparently don't know as much as you think you do. His own words are better than any book written by someone else, and his words are as quoted above.
So you are a hypocrite then? One is an actor for wrestling (Lesnar), One is "more than an actor", hypocrisy reigns supreme I guess.

He wasn't black as you stated either so.......

Please spare me the lesson on the Maori people, lets stick to the topic at hand here, if you can remember it.
This has what to do with anything? Or do you even know your point anymore?
Again, this is your OPINION of what Sullivan would have done, I'm not debating your OPINION, come backwith some FACTS like the article highthief posted or else give it a rest.

Here I'll quote it again, just in case you missed it
Seems clear to me, but you keep going with your OPINION.

Keep throwing shit at the wall, some of it's bound to stick sometime......

He's not stranded, he's half-fucking Maori. The Maoris are a Polynesian people, descended from Asian peoples. He's about as black as you are.

Sullivan obviously did not take on all comers - Peter Jackson being the most notable, but also George Godfrey, the great Canadian black champ, being another notable that he refused to fight.

Of course he was a coward ... like I said, he might have been more of a moral coward than a physical coward, in as much that he might not have feared a beat down as much as the loss of prestige of losing to a black fighter, but he showed cowardice nonetheless.

Don't forget, other white fighters like Jim Corbett, Peter Maher and Jem Smith had the guts to face Jackson. So it's not like fighting a black fighter was unheard of. Sullivan ducked them.

---------- Post added at 02:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

No, no, no, jay - Strange knows Sullivan better than Sullivan knew himself. Haven't you learned the rules yet?

Words written by the man himself = inconvenient truth to be ignored.

Whatever Strange cooks up inside that melon sitting atop his neck = The TRUTH

To make it clear for you I will post my view in two parts.

My view is based on the same thing as anyone else's - my reading of historical sources

1 - John L Sullivan stated on a few occasions at the time of Jack Johnson's ascendancy that he wouldnt fight a black man

2 - In my opinion this isnt true, and John L did and was prepared to fight black men. He fought Slade (a Maori,) and went after a fight with Godfrey (a black American)

When he was touring the country he fought black and white fighters.

__

Even if it was accepted (which I do not accept) that he never fought a black man (I agree he didnt defend his title against black men, especially Peter Jackson who was deserving of a shot) - this alone would only make him a bigot and a racist, not a coward.

No one that know's anything about the fight game would call him a coward. I doubt any of the people calling him such would have taken up the bet he used to offer of 1000 USD if anyone could go past 4 rounds with him.

John L used to walk into a bar and declare himself the toughest man in the room and challenge any man to disprove it, as did Dempsey (who was also a racist) in his early days. Jack Johnson never sunk to brawling in mid west bars - and was the bravest of any boxer.

But the simple fact is that no man gets to hold the world title because of their cowardice - even Tommy Morrison.

I'm starting to see that now, read a few books, you can call the mans own words a lie. Imagine how much history would be changed if people just ignored actual facts and went with their opinions instead.

This thread has been all over the place, from MMA not being a sport, which it obviously is...to women being forced to fight in MMA which they obviously aren't...to John L. Sullivan being a coward, which I must say not taking on all comers, he was.....to Slade being black, which he obviously wasn't as you pointed out. I want to back out of it, but it's that fuckin train wreck factor again, I just don't kow what outrageous claims are going to be made next so I have to keep watching and posting.

Highthief - since you know who George Godfrey is I must assume you know something about boxing...

If you have to make a call, on what you know: do you think a mid 20's John L Sullivan, if challenged to go down into a cellar of a bar by a black fighter of his time (Jackson, Godfrey, etc) and one one man comes outon his feet - do you think John L would have been yellow?7

Answer honestly. I dont deny the guy was a drunk, a hooligan, a racist... but it seems to me ridiculous to call him a coward. John L was not the kind of man to back down to the face of any man.

Not according to his own words, your OPINION means shit in comparison to what the man himself wrote which is a FACT.
Maori doesn't equal black, are you seriously this dense or just trolling again?
Doesn't matter if you accept it or not, he still said it, in print, in the NY Times, what you think is only OPINION, what he said is FACT, deal with it.
I don't accept this, it's nothing but a lie, I believe he went into the bar and sat in the corner like a little bitch and drank his beer and kept his mouth shut.
You've called MMA fighters cowards and I doubt you have the sack to get in a cage or a ring with any of them, even a featherweight.

You fail to understand the difference between physical cowardice and moral cowardice. Sullivan was a moral coward - little old ladies and little old men like Rosa Parks and Ghandi pissd out more moral courage every morning than Sullivan ever had in his whole life.

You Strange are also apparently a moral coward - you have provide no evidence of Sullivan fighting a black man. Nothing, nada, just your say so.

In exchange, both jay and I have provided documentary evidence - some by Sullivan himself - stating he never fought a black fighter.

At this point, someone in your position with honour would either admit he was wrong, or would at least make an effort to provide direct evidence contradicting the stance of, well, me, jay, gucci, and boxing historian Thomas Hauser.

You're not asking me, but based on the mans own words I say he wouldn't have fought a black fighter, but any answer is pure OPINION and well debating opinion is pointless as opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. Buit don't let facts get in your way SF, 6 pages of this thread and countless in the other 2 threads and all you've done is ignore facts.
Here's some more of that evidence:
http://massmoments.org/moment.cfm?mid=240

Im sorry, but it isnt as simple as that.

If you dont understand the context that John L made those comments you shouldnt quote them.

Can you imagine how much it shook turn of the century America when Jack Johnson won the heavyweight title? White America was horrified, not just that a black man held the greatest title of manliness of the day - but a black man who showed no signs of "knowing his place"!

In my opinion Jack Johnson is the greatest sportsman of all time. But while America is in love with men like Jackie Robinson, who were prepared to be humble and take the jeers of the crowd with stoicism, they arent quite ready to accept a man who lived his whole life as if racism didnt exist, you would openly taunt oppents (black or white), who would sleep with any woman he pleased no matter her colour.

I always read that Joe Louis and his people were furious with Jack for making it harder for the next black champion, but Jack lived his life on his own terms, and no one elses.

In his absolute prime Joe Louis could have gone 100 rounds against Jack Johnson and not laid a real punch on him.

The context is quite easy to understand, I have no issues understanding it, while you on the other hand seem to have a hard time grasping it or accepting it, and trying to replace fact with personal opinion, but keep thinking you know it all SF, anyone who reads this thread is quite aware of how it really is.
It's the shit at the wall again, keep throwing it and hope something sticks, or hope someone gives up and just believes the shit you're throwing.

At least you admit that he want a physical coward. That would be a ridiculous position for you to take.

A man's morality is his own personal concern. I dont say that John L had a progressive view of the world.... but I think his career proved he was not a physical coward. If any man - black or white - called him out, John L wouldnt have backed down. To say he physically feared even a great boxer like Peter Jackson would be a lie.

I have no doubt that in his early years of taking on all comers he fought black and white fighters.

I can accept that when he made a name for himself he dodged Peter Jackson, because he knew that fighting him would hold back his sucess... if you call that moral cowardice I accept that charge. But if you say that he feared Jackson physically and dodged him for that reason I would utterly dispute it.

When I say that this man was no coward I precisely mean that he was not a physical coward.

PUNCHDRUNKGAMER FORUMS • View topic - The Boston Strong Boy Series Part I
Popular culture in London c. 1890 ... - Google Books

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------

OPINION, the mans own words state otherwise which is indeed a FACT, quit trying to pawn off you opinion as fact, it's a ridiculous position for you to take.

You seem to think the fact you can find some quote on the internet makes something true

I have accepted the distinction between moral and physical cowardice

Does any person really claim that John L Sullivan was a physical coward?

you seem to think that just because you made something up in your head it's true.

You're seriously trying to use this as an argument? You who fuckin used Google search results to try and prove boxing is more popular than MMA? Hypocrite much? Fuckin pathetic is what it is. At least I use actual FACTS I find on the internet, not a search result.

They're his own fucking words, that's what makes it fuckin true, I'm not the one making shit up or pulling it out of my arse you are, it's your OPINION against the mans own words which are FACT, is it really that fuckin hard to get mate? Seriously? Is it that hard to understand?

This has what to do with anything in this thread? Or are you just wanting to argue your OPINION some more.

This thread is such a train wreck it isn't funny, you've destroyed your credibility, just admit you were wrong and get over it.

Everything John L Sullivan ever said wasnt necessarily true.

Its strange how this argument is so difficukt for people to get their heads ronund.

But the true point I am making is whether he fought 1 Maori or 10 African Americans, this is not a guy who was a physical coward.

Does this look like a physical coward?

If the likes of Brock Lesnar steppeed into the ring with this man, even under UFC rules, Lesnar would be done inside a round.

He said it, just because you're of the OPINION it isn't true doesn't mean sweet fuck all in the reality of the situation

Yes some people are just fuckin thick, and like to take their OPINION over a FACT

I doubt you have a clue what the fuck point you're trying to make anymore, I reckon it's still throwing shit at the wall and hoping something sticks.
OPINION, no way to prove anything like this. If all you have to argue with is OPINION and no FACTS I'm done with this thread and with your trolling, it's fuckin pathetic and just making you look ridiculous to everyone involved, so come back when you have some actual facts to argue, rather than your opinion.

When I have some facts?

Why dont you instead wait for Fedor vs Lesnar

You will see for yourself what kind of a champion UFC has. My fear is that the guy is badly hurt by Fedor, I hope they employee a ref who will move quickly to save Lesnar's health if necessary

---------- Post added at 10:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 PM ----------

If Lesnar was fighting a puncher like Filipovic or Tua (who I have heard a few MMA rumours about now his boxing career is ending) I think his life would be in danger. It is lucky that he is able to get his money fight against a counter puncher like Fedor who will humiliate him, but who doesnt have dynamite in his fists.

I expect to sse Lesnar back in WWF within a year

Yes I'm sick and tired of 6 pages of bullshit, this thread reeks of it.
I could care less what kind of Heavyweight Champ UFC has, UFC has no one champion, but let's not go there again I don't want to have to draw you a picture so you can understand it. It's a fight we shall see who wins, anyone has a punchers chance in a fight, unless it's an untrained lump who thinks he can can beat a top 25 heavyweight, then it's just a joke.
Psst, there is no Lesnar/Fedor fight scheduled, look things up before making yourself look foolish.
Jesus fuck they have refs to stop fights.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------

Have a good night, I'm done with this fuckin nonsense, it's just stupid at this point and nothing but trolling

Why, oh why, is this thread six fucking pages?

MMA is a sport
/thread

Now, what are you going to do with all this spare time?

Because some people have no idea what point they're trying to make and can't seem to distinguish fact from opinion:lol:

Agreed, this thread was over before it should have been started for the second time.

Go watch a donkey show:lol:

The Brits are a funny lot..

especially considering that Sky Sports has a WWE link on it's main header..

is this thread over yet? it's getting pretty fucking lame.

One last piece of FACT from an interview with the man himself, I know facts don't matter to you SF because you're the be all know all of boxing and of course you know John L better han he knew himself so to you he was probably 'joking' when he made these comments:
Boston Strong Boy Series Part III The Color Line and Peter Jackson

BBC - Homepage - not sky sports (the cable channel that sells WWF in the UK)

You fool! You've used a FACT!

You'll be sorry now.

BTW, number one video game in the UK in June?

UFC 2009: Undisputed!

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/uk...disputed-champ

btw, it's perfectly legal for me to make fun of the brits.. my wife is british :lol:

highthief.. wow.. really? You mean there are MMA fans in the UK?? C'mon..surely a game stat can't prove anything!!

/sarcasm.

I know, I must remember to use opinion over fact:lol:

Hahaha that's hilarious, but of course UFC still isn't popular in the UK, just the US and Canada. I mean we have hockey to watch people get their asses kicked, we don't really need UFC to see that happen, although it is good for when hockey season is over

heh.. if hockey continues to be pussified.. we won't even have that.

Very true, personally I enjoy fighting in hockey(as if everyone didn't already know), most likely because it was what I did most near the end of my playing days, the old Jr. B and Jr. A times were the best time though when I was 15-19 years old, line brawls, jumping into other teams benches, punching fans who want to get too close to mouth off, oh the good ole days.....

We know what kinda of champions the UFC has. Right here. Alongside Brock we have one of the most dominant lightweights of all time, two of the most dominant champions in MMA history, potentially one of the most dominant LHWs. These are the CHAMPIONS (multiple) of the UFC.

a current interview with a former boxing champ.


a current interview with a former mma champ.

you tell me. which seems brain damaged? which seems to have been more subjected to "barbarism"?

boxing is predominantly about punching each other in the head. it's professionals lead broken lives riddled with psychological and neurological problems. MMA fighters, not so much, because half the time they lost the "cowardly" way on the ground or with an arm bar.

SF's constant stream of rhetoric hasn't shown any more in this thread than the one i previously started. If 2 fighters agree to a set of rules that include ground fighting, 1) it's not cowardly and 2) it adds variety and entertainment to a fight.It's kinda cool SF is so nostalgic for the good ol' days and so caught up in ancient history for a younger person, but if he's trying to convince mma fans of joining him in his hate for it, he's doing a piss poor job. that IS your ultimate goal isn't it, SF? i can't think of why else you'd continue the rhetoric after mma has been officially defined as a sport.

MMA is chess to boxing's checkers. It's dented both boxing and wrestlings success and will continue to carve into both of them, because of both it's legitimacy and it's entertainment value.

i see a lot of SF's protestations akin to an Indian Hindu in Los Angeles protesting in front of a Burger King what horrible meat beef is to eat.

barbarism is putting it nicely for mike tyson.

MMA, as it stands now, is shorter lived career wise. The punch counts are lower, bare(ish) knuckles do more surface damage but not as much brain damage in the long term. They don't call it MMA Parkinson's for a reason.

Sometimes Tyson could be pretty insightful

"The one thing I know, everyone respects the true person and everyone's not true with themselves. All of these people who are heroes, these guys who have been lily white and clean all their lives, if they went through what I went through, they would commit suicide. They don't have the heart that I have. I've lived places they can't defecate in."

"I'm the most irresponsible person in the world. The reason I'm like that is because, at 21, you all gave me $50 or $100 million, and I didn't know what to do. I'm from the ghetto. I don't know how to act. One day I'm in a dope house robbing somebody. The next thing I know, 'You're the heavyweight champion of the world.' ... Who am I? What am I? I don't even know who I am. I'm just a dumb child. I'm being abused. I'm being robbed by lawyers. I think I have more money than I do. I'm just a dumb pugnacious fool. I'm just a fool who thinks I'm someone. And you tell me I should be responsible?"

"I'm just a dark guy from a den of iniquity. A dark shadowy figure from the bowels of iniquity. I wish I could be Mike who gets an endorsement deal. But you can't make a lie and a truth go together. This country wasn't built on moral fiber. This country was built on rape, slavery, murder, degradation and affiliation with crime."

"I never saw my mother happy with me and proud of me for doing something: She only knew me as being a wild kid running the streets, coming home with new clothes that she knew I didn't pay for. I never got a chance to talk to her or know about her. Professionally, it has no effect, but it's crushing emotionally and personally."