jorgelito

I gotta tell ya, there is a part of me that likes to watch fighting sports - boxing, martial arts etc. Probably stems from a visceral part of the human psyche. But one internal conflict I have is, separating the fighting from the sport. It seems counterintuitive. I've been in a lot of fights from k-12 then in my young adult years as well. Sadly, I avedrage one a year at this point. For me, fighting came out of necessity (we can argue about this in another thread), as in only fight if necessary. The sport aspect is weird to me because I couldn;t fight someone for no reason. As a result, an unprovoked fight seems odd to me. I always marvel at the amount of control fighters (sport fighters) have. I don't think I could strike another person (purposefully) unless for a good reason (prize money is not a good enough reason in my opinion).

Does anyone else ever feel this way or entertain these thoughts?

Marvelous Marv

I have competed in controlled situations, such as wrestling, and in non-full contact martial arts.

The mma (UFC) and full-contact guys are nuts, in my opinion. Even when you win, you lose.

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Ch'i

I do full contact at my dojo almost three times a week. Watching the UFC is interesting, but they all seem to be stuck in the same routines. I'm very tempted to join the UFC to bring something different into the mix. Not that the UFC is bad, I just think that it has degraded over the years.

Toaster126

Fighting for sport draws people to it for many reasons. Some people wish to test themselves, some simply enjoy combat, some want the fame, some want money, and some simply want to be thought of as tough. There are positives and negatives for each.

As far as "real" fighting, I certainly have been in fights before, but at this point in my life I like to think I have better solutions to problems than beating the fuck out of it. I do love MMA fighting though, both watching and doing.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

kutulu

I don't like fighting period. My brother, OTOH is a fighter. He's doing his first 'rage in the cage' match soon. They payout is pretty good if he wins. I'd rather have him doing it there in a controlled environment that out in the streets where anything can happen.

Kensei

I'd have to disagree Chi, it has evolved snice the times of Gracy, and if you joined, you would get your ass kicked. Obviously you are rather asrrogant, you would bring nothing to the mix with a stylized martial arts, the MMA way of fighting proved that styles are no good compared to a mixture, or adopting no style. But good luck on that, I'd love to see you get your ass kicked by some of their best, or even their worst

Jinn

What is this guy's problem?

Can we get him banned already? I'm tired of seeing people I respect get belittled by this arrogant bag of wind. What is the "proper" procedure?

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...89#post2132689
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...21#post2132621
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...40#post2132240
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...41#post2132141
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...50#post2131650
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...42#post2131642
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...93#post2131393

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Toaster126

Well, at least in this case, I agreed with him. The fighters in the ufc have different styles, but they are pretty evolved and are that way for specific reasons. And simply due to the fact that Ch'i is 18, I know there is a good chance he doesn't have enough MMA\sportfighting experience to be anything more than a victim of someone else's highlight reel KO. This isn't to pick on Ch'i; it's simply due to the fact that lots of martial arts training can actually be detrimental to your progress as a MMA fighter.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

jorgelito

But I find the "evolution" of MMA to be very interesting. As far as I kow, it has followed it's own evolutionary cycle where the styles come down to the two ways of winning: knock out or submission. It seems, natural to me. So if you put a Thai fighter in with an alligator wrestler the two different styles still have to come to a head, thast is a win by ko or submission. Right? In that sense, I think Bruce Lee was right when he created all the fuss about how traditional martial arts was inefficient or just plain :wrong" (my own words and intepretation). Isn;t that the premise behind Jeet Kun Do? A mix of styles so you don't get bogged down in "set moves" etc.

On another note, anyone have any thoughts to the differentiation between "real" fighting and sport fighting?

Toaster126

From what I understand of Bruce Lee's stance on things, he favored what worked in practice, rather than tradition. I think he would have been a huge MMA fan.

There are lots of differences between a real fight and fighting for sport. The two biggest things I can think of is referee stoppages don't happen in real fights, and real fights often have more than 2 people involved, making lots of techniques extremely useful in one context and useless in the other.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Sun Tzu

And the element the of biting, which along with eye gouges they are not allowed to do. I think Brazilian Juijitsu is awesome. It definately helps develop the attribute of ground fighting. The Graci approach is to immediately take the fight to the ground. In a real fight the person that does that better get a breaking move fast because being in the closet range someone with a high level of killer instinct is going to be biting. So while I think it is definately a plus to know in a real fight scenerio intentionally going to the ground is a bad idea.

I second the thought that Bruce would have loved this sport.

I think the reason why it may look like its getting drab to some is the fighters and the way they fight has become so efficient. Remember when it first started? No weight classes and it was style against style. I dont think you will find anyone entering under something like wing chun anymore. A fighter that wants to do well is going to have to train like most of them are doing now. Boxing, Muay Thai, and Brazilian Juijitsu or something similiar like shooting fighting.

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Cervantes

I agree with jorgelito, it is the same for me. I have been in the situation where non violence was not an option. (self denfence mainly). Where I have been forced to use force.

Money is, for me, not enough to strike somone. Prize, fame, glory? not a chance.

Only in situations where either my life or somone I care for's life is in danger, is it enough to get me to resort to violence.

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Ch'i

If I joined, it would not be right now; I'd have to continue my training for a few years. I didn't mean to sound arrogant, but none of you have ever seen me spar/fight, so don't be so quick to judge.

Kewpie Dan

with regards to the biting and eye gouging argument the problem with that is the context in which the biting and eye gouging come into play.

i have heard many people say that if they are fighting a rear naked choke they could bite or eye gouge to get out of it.

the problem with that is the biter is in an inferior position, the guy can bite or try and eye gouge, but the person with back mount could then sit back and start walloping the person in the back of the skull.

same goes with mount, and side mount.

now if you are in somebody's guard i can maybe see the bite/eye gouge working, but remember, when you are in someone's guard the person having guard has more options than you do.

while you put your head down to bite you could open yourself up for a guillotine or a triangle, and if you try to eye gouge you could get arm barred, omoplata'd, or swept.

and if you are in a superior position, why bite when you can pound the person's face into pulp?

also chi'i, not to slam you or anything, i am sure you are a good fighter if you really train full contact 3 times a week, but mma has really distilled what has worked and what does not.

i take muay thai and have started wrestling, in a muay thai context i can throw clinch knees all day and be great, but when i do mma, i have to do my clinch knees much differently or else i will be single legged and have to fight off my back.

also look at kesa gatame, or the scarf hold, or the head and arm side control. mark coleman was killing guys with it in wrestling, but when he fought maurice smith he lost because maurice kept pushing off and kneeing his kidneys until he couldn't hold him down anymore.

all of striking doesn't work, and all of wrestling doesn't work.

learn as many arts as you can before you start mma, you will find that what will work in one context will not work in another.

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shakran

Look into the art of kino mutai, Kewpie. Uninterrupted biting, pinching and eyegouging. You learn how to immobilize them long enough to get a damn big bite wound, which is useful if you're in the inferior position. After all, most people no longer feel like fighting if you've just bitten a hole in their face

Willravel

You've obviously never sparred with Ch'i. You're really missing out. He's quite good. He'd easily win the Ultimate Fighter 4. What they lack in finesse they do not make up with in brute strength and realy TV personas.
What style of fighting does Ch'i use? Have you ever seen him fight? Have you ever fought him? If you don't know, then where do you get off suggesting that he'd lose, or that he'd bring only one style?

MMA stands for mixed martial art. That means that you take one part of this and one part of that a put it all together. The problem is that a lot of different fighters have taken the same of this and the same of that and put them together in the same way. What does that mean? That means that many of the fighters in the UFC do end up bringing the same thing to the table, and that's not only damned boring, but it can become easy for an observant fighter to overcome.

Think of the mixed bag that everyone brings to the table:
Jujitsu, Muay Thai, boxing, and some stereotypical, generic martial art like Karate or Tae Kwan Do. I just named 95% of the UFC. Can you imagine someone suddenly intruducing something unique? Why do you think Gracie won (and continues to win)? He brought to the table something innovative and new when he introduced his own brand of ground fighting in Brazilian Jujitsu.

Kewpie Dan

true enough, but a bite or a gouge should not be the first line of defence.

the first line of defense should be to work an escape to get out of the inferior position and into a dominant one from there you can ground and pound or work the submission.

i (briefly) looked into kino mutai over the interweb and it sounds pretty good, as long as it is paired with sound grappling principles.

the danger lies in the belief that a bite or an eye gouge will get the practioner out of ANY situation (not that i'm saying you have that belief, i'm just saying that it is a common misconception)

also they are wrong about it being the best filipino martial art, being filipino myself i know what it is...

you distract the guy while your cousin hits him over the head with a pool cue. that my friend is where we shine!

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Sun Tzu

I totally agree with everything your saying here. I trained at the Relson Graci Academy in Hawaii, and learned fast that there is allot of excellent grapplers out there. Sure if the fights going the way you want it to, manipulating your opponent for a finishing position is likely. I just think there is a difference between agressive sport fighting and "kill mode". I'm glad I got a solid understanding of the way ground fighting works, but personally in "kill mode" intentionally getting into grapping range and staying there to bring it to the ground is asking for trouble. But like I said earlier my friend who is a police officer stated that nation wide police are haveing to be trained in this to counter all the people that know that style of grappling.

There can be times in a grapple that your body as well as your opponents are right over each others faces. If I'm in danger of being harmed, Im in "kill mode" Im going to do whatever it takes. That is my concern with everyone else. There are moments that it would be possible to bite huge chunks of flesh.

On the street I would only want to go to the ground if I fell or the other person got me into a clinch I couldnt counter. It would be intersting to see if it changed they way they fought of biting and eye gouging were allowed.

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Toaster126

Not criticizing, just commenting.

Plus you agree with me. :P

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Kewpie Dan

sun tzu: there's no feeling like getting destroyed on the ground, especially by a grappler so good you get arm barred or whatever before you even see the set up.

yeah, the strength of wrestling and ground fighting is not to just jump up and grab someone in the guard and then fight off your back on the street.

the strength is that it gives you the ability to get off of your back if you end up there and to put someone on their back so you can go to town.

good luck training tzu!

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Toaster126

HAHAHAHA. This reminds me of the first triangle choke I got in. Saw the triange coming, thought I was good to go, then suddenly I didn't have my arm where I wanted it anymore and I was not breathing. Stayed calm, collected, trying to turn and create enough distance to slip out or slip my other arm in there... and then about 10 seconds later, lights out. Whoops.

I find the ground game is the most exciting part of MMA for me, but I can't respect strictly groundfighting simply because punching someone in the face should be one of your options for preventing\getting out of a submission, damnit.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Sun Tzu

I remember training with a shootfighter and getting schooled. At the Graci Academy we did train without GIs sometimes, but for the most part we trained with them. Shooter fighters train without GIs so they are used to not having clothes as one more added element that could be used against you.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Ch'i

Thank you for giving an example to my point. After seeing, being a part of, and studying thousands of fights I can tell you that this is not the case. The methods of fighting in a majority of UFC fighters is not as efficient as it could be. Many immitate training/fighting styles while neglecting what's efficient for them. Many important attributes to fighting have been diluted by this supposed "best way of fighting." The overrall mixture has not distilled into the best way, it has distilled into a way. Do not confuse the two.

And Kensei, my style is my style.

shakran

Absolutely correct.

Well, we disagree a little there. I do NOT like to be on the ground. At all. Ever. I train grappling and kino mutai a lot, but the fact is that if you're on the ground, whether you're in the dominant position or the inferior position, there's always the chance that the other guy's friend will come around the corner with a baseball bat and ruin your whole day. I've seen it happen, and I don't want it to happen to me

Absolutely. If you don't have sound grappling principals, you don't have kino mutai.

The worst part about kino mutai is the bite training. Many schools wrap a raw steak in a shirt and have you bite it, which 1) wrecks a perfectly good piece of meat that should be on the grill and 2) is rather disgusting if you've ever taken a biology or food safety course



You bring up a great point here - not just about KM but about any style or "move." I've heard too many people say that their whatever-fu is unbeatable, and that's the most dangerous mindset you can possibly get into. If you're not scared in every fight you're fighting, you're too overconfident and WILL lose one day.

Kali!!! Gimme a machete and it's party time!





one thing I LOVE about filipino arts like kali/arnis/eskrima is that once you learn on one weapon, you know a LOT of weapons. Stick, pool cue, lead pipe, knife, machete, it's all the same concepts.

Well that and hitting shit with a 2 foot long chunk of bamboo is just fun

Kewpie Dan

i agree shakran, hitting anything is fun.

also i agree that the steak biting thing is gross, maybe they should substitute a raw steak with some nice leafy vegetables.

or if you have to bite steak, they could use ground beef and make a lovely steak tartar!

good luck training shakran, if you are in the toronto area give me a shout and we could train, i'd like to learn a little more about your art.

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Sun Tzu

Im only refering to the UFC itself not to street fighting. It sounds like you may have trained in JKD before so I dont want you to misunderstand me. There are attributes they cant develop or at least not to develop to go into a sport scenerio like that. Attributes like killer instinct.

If your refering to heightening the sport fighting they are doing could you please explain, knowledge like that is worth allot and my ears are open.


Kali is my favorite!!!!

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Ch'i

I know you were talking about the UFC, so was I. I've never trained in JKD, but I do train in the philosophy of JKD. About the UFC: The reason the UFC, in my humble opinion, has distilled is because of uncertainty. Most people do not feel comfortable in the unknown; the same goes with many fighters in the UFC. For the sake of security, they construct chosen patterns to justify, and accept that the one way, as the only way. These are a few of the things I avoid as a fighter, and a martial artist, and I can say with certainty that uncertainty is my strength.
Watch any UFC fight, you'll notice two things. The first: Reading the opponent, and reacting to them. Many UFC fighters have a determined plan of attack. When they see an oppening they plan to exploit it. While this concentration is not necissarily a bad thing, it removes focus from the overrall fight; their focus on a target removes focus from another target which is usually more open. They focus on specifics rather than the relationship to their opponent as a whole.
The second: Relationship to their opponent. When fighting, your thoughts are on nothing, and you move in response to your opponent. A distance is created wherein you are close enough to strike quickly, while staying just outside your opponent's reach. Many UFC fighters have too much concentration, especially on themselves.

The set way of doing things in the UFC has forced many fighters to do things that are unatural to their personal style, and ability. Everyone has their own style, whether they know it or not. Instead of developing smooth, expressive speed and movement in which they are comfortable, they seem to believe that it boils down to who trains the hardest via weights, and exercise. While exercise and weight training are important, it is equally important for them to develop that comfort with balance and motion. Proper balance and motion can be far more effective in delivering a strike than any amount of exercise. I find these things to be, for the most part, neglected in the UFC. The fastest method of training, in this case, has shunned areas of martial arts that are extremely important.

Practicing these areas, which I find missing, is an important part of my daily training. If you have more questions I thoroughly enjoy answering them Sun_Tzu. Specific is preffered; I could go on for hours about this stuff.

Kali is a great martial art.

Kewpie Dan

not to be a nitpicker ch'i, but are you focusing entirely on ufc? the ufc (while having some excellent fighters) is considered by many (me included) as a second tier promotion.

the ultimate fighter and the bouts that are shown on spike are not really indicative of the depth of mma.

i am afraid that you may be neglecting other mma events with fighters of a much higher calibur (i.e. pride fc)

when you said this i immediatly thought of crocop, fedor emilanenko, sakuraba, and wanderlei silva (in his heyday, he's declining a bit now)

you will not see anyone more balanced and relaxed when crocop delivers a left high kick that would drop a horse. he is a very good example of the sprawl and brawl fighter who can keep a fight in a zone he is comfortable with.

fedor recovered from being suplexed on his neck to win by arm bar over kevin randleman, not to mention his impeccable stand up (in my opinion he is the most balanced/complete fighter today).

sakuraba grapples so smooth it's scary.

and silva is pure effotless aggression.

these fighters are not stilted or predictable.

true they are the top tier atheletes, but your argument resonates with every martial art.

the problem of stagnation is not just within mma circles. all martial arts have practioners who do not achieve their best.

if anything, i believe that competitive mma'ers are some of the best trained, best conditioned, and most versatile fighters today.

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Sun Tzu

Chi do you train in ways similiar to Paul Vunak? When I refered to JKD; philosophy is what I meant. The difference between Inosanto and Gary Dill who actually promotes JKD as a style (modified wing chun- as he puts it). As I understand Bruce's actual evolved "style" was Jun Fan.

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Ch'i

Dan,

I totally agree. I was talking about the UFC only because it was brought up earlier in the thread, and because of its current popularity. Also, I wasn't talking about all UFC/MMA fighters, just most. Pride fights are definately of a higher calibur.

There are some insanely talented mma'ers out their. I train at Cung Le's school, and he would use me as a mop any day of the week.

Like I said, I wasn't talking about everyone. We're saying the same thing. I apologize if I depicted the explaination as otherwise. You have a great knowledge of MMA; I still have alot to learn.


Sun_Tzu,

I know how Paul Vunak teaches, but I'm not sure how he trains. Are the two similar?

And yeah, JKD as a style is a contradiction.

Kewpie Dan

gotcha.

and no worries, it's nice to have a good conversation about mma. like you i could go on about it for hours.

i'm assuming since it is cung le's school it is a san shou school. how much do you incorporate wrestling and ground work in your classes?

i am curious because many of the martial art clubs in toronto are mcdojos and i was wondering what the curriculum is like in a school run by someone who competes professionally.

good luck training dude.

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Ch'i

Yes, it is primarily sanshou. The reason I ended up choosing this dojo, is because they train harder, and are pushed further than any other dojo I've seen. There are jiu jitsu classes about three times a week, which are taught by someone else. Most of the high powered stuff is done in Cung's sanshou team (competition team). I'm not on the team yet since I just joined; you're required to be there for at least three-four months before being eligible for the team, which is invitation only. Though I do stay after and watch them, and how they train. Cung has them do alot of full contact sparring, and excessive training/drills. I was amazed by the amount of training they did, even in the regular classes. They have a boxing ring, a full gym in the back, tons of punching/speed bags, and lots of training equipment. They alow students to train in those areas after around 8:30-10 pm freely, which is great. The classes for the basic students involves almost non-stop calisthenics, cardio, and drills. I find myself feeling rubbery when I get home. The sanshou team does alot of grappling/ground fighting, I'd guess conservatively three-four hours a week. Many of the team's members are mid-high ranking in jiu jitsu, as they are required to participate in most of the jiu jitsu classes. I was surprised to find one of the fight team's members recently won a gold medal in a national wushu championship. Mr. Le's skill as a MMA competitor definately pour over into his school.

Thanks for the luck, I'll need it.

Glory's Sun

Ahh sport fighting vs "real" fighting. I think the main differences between the two are street fights are usually over pretty quickly with no real technique thrown in while sport fighting is all technique and measuring up with an opponent. I could do either. I'd love to fight for prize money, however, I don't have enough training to go that route. I know some Muay Thai and some Juijitsu but not enough to throw down with the people who train everyday.

As far as MMA goes, you have to be well rounded in many areas to make it. Since UFC has come up quite a bit (UFC is a joke IMO) then we'll take some examples from that. First, Chuck Liddell. Chuck is a great wrestler with perhaps the best sprawl in the UFC, but his technique is flawed. He gives up reach in order to gain equal strenth in both hands. It works for him as he has great angles of attack. Matt Hughes.. who is the only fighter in the UFC whom I think could make an impact in Pride is just a beast. The kid is great in many areas including ground, submission and striking.

I love when these kids think that just BJJ will win a fight. Think about it, the Gracie name isn't so wonderful anymore. Gracie's have been getting killed because they lack the striking ability to compete. Sure, when they came on the scene and nobody knew how to handle it, it was great, now people train in it and know counters and how to defeat it. This is why little Gracie is changing the style and adding new componants to try and get their name back to where it once was.

And anyone who doesn't think UFC is a joke, I have one name for you. Wanderlei.

He would destroy anyone in the UFC easily.

silent_jay

I've been watching more Pride Fighting than UFC lately, they just seem to be better fighters, maybe it's just me seeing it that way.

Watched their first PPV in America and it was fantastic, non stop action. Coleman got utterly destroyed by Emilanenko, he gave a great effort though, he never stopped trying for the takedown, just couldn't get it. Emilanenko is a machine, the guy is so calm in the ring. Silva called out Liddell which would be an interesting match up.

Anyone happen to catch the Franklin-Anderson Silva at the last UFC? Silva is an animal in the clinch, and he has such heavy hands.

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silent_jay

UFC Welterweight Title coming back to Canada, GSP is the man.

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kurtisj

i could not believe i saw GSP own Matt Hughes, it was kind of disappointing, being from illinois and all, but GSP deserved the win in that fight. anyway, keeping it on subject, i think that sport fighting is a human necessity for entertainment. sport fighting has been goin since ancient times, and for some reason, people generally like to see people beat the hell out of each other.

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Lasereth

I know nothing about MMA or UFC but I watch UFC anytime I catch it and I've watched a couple of 12-hour Ultimate Fighter marathons. I love watching MMA fighting. Not sure why. I don't like watching people get hurt. I think it's more of showcase on what can happen when the human body is trained enough. MMA fighting and UFC are examples of what the human body is capable of, and how the average person is so severely under the physical conditions of these fighters. It's truly amazing what these guys do, even the ones that lose, and I guess that's why I watch it.

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Marvelous Marv

Perhaps you could post Rapidshare links to some video of you. It would help validate your comments regarding UFC fighters.

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cameroncrazy822

No contest- UFC will be the top viewed an dmost popular pugilistic sport in the world wihtin the next 3 years. It's just drinking coffee.... why drink decaf when you have the ability to drink a double expresso?