Girls in Groups and Fugly Girl Cockblocking
 

Hi everyone,

I've met this group of 8 girls who are here in California as summer ESL students and will return to Asia afterwards. Well, initially the fugly one (who is the dominant, unquestionable leader of the group) was really nice to me and I thought she was just being friendly.

So I am nice to her in the hopes that she can continue to be a bridge to 2 cute girls in the group I want to ask out, but after a few more dinners with the whole group I realize that I have been "Claimed" by the fugly girl as the cute girls I want to hit on become all quiet when fugly's around, but are somewhat interested when I talk to them when she's not around.

I tried to sit with the one I like, but she told me to "go to the other end of the table." I was like "why?". And she was like "That's where you are supposed to sit." And yeah, it was a setup. I always must sit beside/across from fugly whenever I hang out with the group.

I now regret setting up the next few social activities with the group. I set them up in the hopes that I could talk to the cute girls I like, but instead it looks like I am stuck with fugly the whole way through!!

I have *very little* girl experience (even talking!) in my life, so I welcomed this opportunity to practice. Now it's driving me up the wazooo. The fugly girl has disallowed all the other girls from hitting on me.

So I come upon two choices:

1) Hit on cute girl I like, asking her to singly go out with me. This is highly likely to fail as she will be outcasted from the group by the fugly one and will experience hostility for the rest of her time here (10 days left only!). And well, she'd probably rather not make an enemy out of her floormates! None of them knew each other before their ESL group-tour, though.

Plus, shit blows up, and I'd rather not leave the girls with a bad impression/experience.

2) Finish off the next few events planned. Endure torture of fugly girl while not being able to talk to the cute girls I like. I do get some practice though, but I'd rather not have to look at fugly so much. And it's not much practice since I'm not attracted to her at all, of course.

I don't mean to sound mean, but this is not to her face and she will never know about this post.

What do you say? Suggestions?

Thanks for your time,
Troubled troubled guy

Fugly.......as in Fucking Ugly?

Take advantage of the "Practice"...you could use it.

Ok. I realize I've come off sounding like a real jerk. I didn't mean to. Just being straight up with you all. Which guys wouldn't refer to a fugly girl as fugly...

Sorry for any offense! :)

tell the ones you are not intersted in flat out that you aren't interested, tell those that you are, you are.

Let the chips fall where they will, otherwise you will wax nostalgic evermore of what "could have been" instead of "what happened"

If there was only a way to get the rest of the group to turn on Fugly...then you'd be free to focus your attentions on all the other, less fugly ones :p

If it were me, I'd prolly go for broke. Let it be known (you don't even have to be subtle about it) that you don't "belong" to anyone and you'll sit wherever you want to and talk to whomever you bloody-well like.

No regrets.

I'm with healer. Confidence is key and if you don't got it you can at least try to fake it well. At the next 'event', sit beside the girl you like and if she tells you where you're supposed to sit say something to the effect of 'well, I never had much use for the rules anyway.' Or something wittier, possibly. I got about half an hour's sleep, don't expect much from me right now.

Oh and instead of fugly, try 'girl I'm not interested in'. Part of the equation is confidence, another part is respect.

The problem is you've got ten days and you're up against territorial issues within the little social group. The first thing you have to decide is whether any stress incurred in this situation is worth the effort. If you decide it is, then go with the advice of the last two posters. It's not up to someone else to decide where you're supposed to sit - certainly not a girl you're not attracted to...who will leave the country in ten (9?) days. If you've already committed to some sort of planned social events, then go to them and do whatever it is that you would like to do while you're there. No reason to overtly rude.

I havent had coffee and the tone of the initial post kinda annoys me -- so

/begin rant

I'm going to speak for some of the 'fugly' girls out there... we need love too... she was nice to you... she gave you an in with the other girls.... and because she's not as cute as the other girls are she gets brushed aside.

Maybe you should consider yourself lucky that one of these people is paying attention to you... and go with that.

These girls are leaving the country in 10 days. What are the odds that you will ever see them again? Since you used the word hit on, it seems your objective is to get laid.. The 'fugly' girl seems to be your best shot... Why not look at what is in front of you...

There's more to women than their looks

/end rant

NOW... if you want to get a girl or even better a woman... Confidence is what will get you there... if you are moving because someone told you to (and they had no other reason other than they wanted you sitting somewhere else)... makes ya little bit whipped and well the attraction factor drops a few notches... You can carry yourself in such a way to say that I am going to sit where I want to sit and don't even bother to ask me to move... (and this can all be done without opening your mouth)

mal....you said what I couldnt seem to say nicely....so thank you

Hopefully the "fugly" girl would have better taste than to really consider laying a person with that kind of attitude. I dont consider myself pretty (mal dont say a word lol) but I seem to have no problem attracting people with my personality and I can spot and reject a "player" from a mile away.

yes Im not being nice, sorry, I find a severe lack of maturity in the way the original post was worded

Well, as much of an insensitive ass as I was, in my early 20's, (and yes, I'm sorry to admit, that I was a class A jerk at times) I've never once used the term "fugly", when refering to any woman.

Now, that said, be happy than any of them are paying you any attention. I mean, obviously you're not exactly looking for a long term thing here, right? Just go with it, have your fun, and make some fun memories to look back on when you're old...like me.

Serves you right for using the "fugly" girl to get in good with the ones you were really interested in. Whether the things you expressed above are said to her face or not, do you think she doesn't detect your disappointment that you got "stuck" with her? Do you think she doesn't sense that your interest in her was purely mercenary? Do you think she doesn't feel disapointment that your "niceness" didn't turn into anything else, and maybe even soured at some point? Do you think she doesn't smart at always being the one nobody's interested in? As the "smart girl" (I hope to god I've never been called fugly but I was called a dog plenty back in high school) who's always the sidekick to the hot girl everyone wants, I can tell you: she knows, and it hurts.

mal, I prefer to think of it this way - everyone has a type and some girls just aren't mine. What I don't consider attractive, some people might think is very attractive. There's no such thing as a 'fugly' girl outside of an individual's perception and the sooner a person realizes that the better off they'll be.

I attribute a great deal of my past and present success with women to the level of respect I show the fairer sex. Mind, I go to the point of being anachronistic (I've been known to open the car door for a girl if she'll let me and if a girl is cold she gets my jacket regardless of whether I'm interested or not) but a certain minimum level is required in my experience.

Next tie you have to have a buddy take the "fugly" girl so you can get the one you want :)


btw: My friends and I use "fugly" but only when it is a Unanimous agreeement that there are some ugly issues.. we don't use it to discriminate wih overweight or girls with slight visual imparments... basically.. we only use it when it's absolutly true......

I wasn't picking on you, Martian... and I really hope you would never describe a woman you didn't find attractive as fugly... That's just mean... Everyone has a type, I don't disagree, but to judge a person solely on what they look like is wrong.

I'm a nice person... most of the time anyhow... but I've also been called fugly (and it wasn't expected to get back to me - but it did) I can tell you it's something that stays with you for a long time... That's what I remember someone saying about me... not the good.. the bad things are what stay with you and it's a lot harder to bring the good things in to replace it.

The original poster's comment about how she was nice to him and basically got him accepted (otherwise he'd m ore than likely be alone) but he brushes her off becuase she's fugly... MEAN MEAN MEAN MEAN MEAN...

I know this woman who is drop dead gorgeous... I've seen people turn around on the street to look at her she's so gorgeous. She's also a class a prima donna, whiney, selfish bitch. Which is clearly evident within 2 minutes of talking to her. She doesn't understand why she can't keep a guy for more than just one night... There is more to a type than just what a person looks like...

Yes, you did mean to sound like a jerk. Referring to a woman as fugly IS being a complete jerk. Your sentence structure is good enough that I can safely assume you're not mentally deficient, which leaves us only with the conclusion that you were being a jerk, you knew you were being a jerk, and now that you're being called on it, you think "but I didn't MEAN to" will fool all of us.

Saying she's "cockblocking" shows us you're out for cheap sex without considering what your partner wants, and that's it. If that's all you want, find a hooker or a jar of vaseline. As much as you may think they are, women are not the brainless sex objects portrayed in those videos you keep hiding from your parents.

Best move in this case? You've been a total asshole to these women. Apologize, then leave them alone so they can find someone who deserves them, and work on a little maturity before you go chase again.

Am I coming down pretty hard? Yeah I am, but people around here know me as someone who doesn't mince words when people are screwing up. You treated those women like crap, and no one deserves that.

it's not right to use someone to get to someone else. that goes for the poster, and the girl, too. posse head or player, it just doesn't seem right from the get go.

you tell people you're interested, that you're interested. and you leave other people out of it...

Ok, I'm riled up now... :hmm:

While I appreciate your honesty... Do you think it's right to refer to another human being as fugly? Are you so perfect looking that you can sit in judgement on someone else?

Visual impairments? Does that mean glasses? Women who wear glasses can't possibly be attractive?

Just because all of your buddies agree that a person is not up to your standards does not give you the right to insult them - even if it is behind their back.

hmmm this thread is devolving almost as quickly as "bros vs. hoes"

For the sake of continuing the discussion, I'll use unattractive instead of fugly.

As a youth I would go out with my group of friends and since I was not as aggressive as my friends, I'd always wind up with the one that was unattractive to me. It didn't mean I didn't want to talk to her, just didn't want to persue a relationship with her in any capacity that involved sex or love.

I was always hard pressed to feel like I needed to have some sort of crutch, even up into my dating 20s where I wore a simple wedding ring to give myself and out. At first it was a gift from grandma that I picked out myself, it looked just enough like one but not one. When I got older I made friends with a woman who got divorced and was tossing her ring out so I took that and it became a "friend's memory" once she died a year or two later.

But I always had it as a crutch to easily excuse and demure myself out of uncomfortable situations where I wasn't interested in the girl.

You know, I'm reading a lot of these responses so far, and it seems to me that it's a little harsh mayhaps...I'm guessing that most people have been in a situation similar to this before, in some context or another. Original Post be damned - I'm thinking in the general sense this basically describes the social networking process, and I think we all do it to a certain extent.

Imagine: You meet a group. You're attracted to some members of said group, but not all - reasons notwithstanding...could be professional, recreational, or in this case sexual. The first contact with the group isn't your desired target, but are you going to turn down the opportunity to get in with the group? I don't think most people are going to categorically do this. And regardless of whether or not we try to hide our objectives, from others or ourselves, with some sort of assumed WWJD / I'm-a-benevolent-creature-don't-we-all-love-unicorns-and-fuzzy-critters mentality...come on, those original objectives are still there. It's just the way we work.

I don't think it gives you the "right" to be mean or rude to anyone, but I also think that we all have objectives when we enter social situations. It seems to be that possibly a lot of posters are imposing their own bad experiences on the situation. The original poster may not have taken the most mature approach to this, but I also think some degree of his quandry shows up in all of our lives.

Am I wrong?

I have been called ugly to my face. I have had a guy tell me (after sex, no less) that I could be Miss America-if I had a bag over my head. I have been completely ignored by guys who focused all their attention to the friends I was with.
When did this all happen? High School on up to about the age of 19. So this shows me just how immature and clueless you are.
Maybe all these girls think YOU are "fugly" and figure by pushing you to the less pretty one, you won't be bothering them. Ah, Karma....

Well, I certianly did not intend to rile you up. Visual imparments does not mean glasses... it means we don't discriminate because of stupid things like a big nose, or a mole or some crap like that... and no... I'm not all that great looking, and I know it... it's meant in fun, and it just means that its a girl that would not activly persue.. less we get to know them through a group and and forced to interact and to see beyond visual appearance. Your looks are your first impressions... the only way around that is by talking online before you meet... I'll be the first to admit, I have dated a few girls that I have met online, that had I met them at a bar or something, I would have probably not gone up to them myself. Even my current SO, while I would not have called her fugly, the picture she posted of herself was horrible... and I was not at first interested, but this did not stop me from talking with her.. and over a year later we are still together....... When I did meet her in person, she looked incredible.. but the visual I had was nowhere near that.. I was going mostly on the "real her" that I discoverd while talking. Again, did not intend to rile you up, and again, i'm the first to admit that "fugly" girls can be awsome people, but if you don't know somebody.....looks are the first thing you see... Now if people went around with signs on them stating their personalities and intrests we might be able to fight being discriminated against via first visual impression.

You might ask... if a "fugly" girl came up to me in a bar and started talking would I talk??? Absolutly... I'll give her a chance... But would you go up to a guy you did'nt find attractive??? I doubt it... I'm even willing to bet that most women, having an unattractive or "fugly" guy come up to them would totally blow them off........ ugly, as well as fucking ugly is an OPINION, we are all intitled to them, and we all have different tastes and preferences... what might be fugly to me might be smokin hot to you... Nothing personal....

Not really - I think it's the original poster's choice of words and the attitude that I am reading into that peturbs me the most...

Until you have been called fugly or even ugly and passed over for the cuter friend... you have no idea how hurtful that attitude can be.

I don't expect us to all stand on a hill holding hands and singing kumbaya and having everyone love one another.. (there are people I just don't like - and I don't like them because of their personality) however.. You don't have to like someone to treat them the way you would want ot be treated.

I can easily find 10 flaws in any person... I can also just as easily find 10 good things in any person... The good things make for a much more pleasant world.

Words have power... Words have meaning...

Maybe the other girls find you fugly and they are passing you off on the girl you find fugly :)

I hope you are nicer to your right hand, since that's the only action you'll be getting.

Since you've pissed off both men and women, of various ages and points of view... I'd say you've fucked up royally. You're lucky they haven't caught on to just how much of a jerk you are. Everyone has certain types of attractiveness they aim for in a partner; just because she doesn't match with yours doesn't make her less.

Ah, objectification. Lovely way to start off the morning, don't you think?

What goes around comes around.

so fugly means?? fucken ugly? it's an annoying contraction if it does...

Yes it certainly does and is....

*looks up at some of the posts*

take a deep breath guys :)

(apart from Shakran, he's always strict from what I can tell :D )


I think ngdawg has it right, can we just chalk this up to quick, immature and clueless player asking for advice? I think by now he managed to catch on that this isn't the behaviour expected of most of this community's members...

Then again, I seem to remember Plan9's thread on dating and other things like it. I thought there was a place for less mature posts too.

I prefer to think of myself as "crusty old fart"

:D

Not that I'd take dating advice from myself, but women frequently pass judgement on guys based on how you treat their friends. You've blown it, in this case.

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect. Real women don't look like supermodels, but they are a whole lot more fun.

:( I thought I was the "crusty old fart".

There's room for 2 in Old Fartville ;)

Got room for a fugly bitch? :lol: I like the company in old Fartville :)

Hi everyone,

I appreciate all your time to respond. I look upon your comments as a hopeful opportunity to improve myself, and I appreciate everyone's viewpoints.

Yes, I was being a jerk, and I don't deny it. However, I was not *trying* to be a jerk on purpose, as you say. Can you look at it from the other viewpoint? I am trying to get to know a certain one or two cute girls I like. Instead, I have been whipped and controlled by the girl I'm not interestd in to basically be her "American lovery boy" for the next 10 days... without *my* consent. I do realize, however, that my being nice to her may have slightly led her on, but in no way did I overtly show romantic interest in her.

Besides, at the time of posting, I could have easily gone back and changed the entire post and removed "fugly". Why didn't I? Ummm, I guess I just wanted to be straight up, no bullshit.

Oh yeah, and I have *not* been an asshole to these women. As much as I *do* sound like an asshole, I have planned fun stuff for them to do, taken them various places, and in fact have been a cheap, free tour guide if not anything else. If anything, I should be feeling very very used right now or after a week lol.

Also, I didn't mention that I *did* have my buddy wingman there at all times, but he was zeroed in by *another* cute girl of the group (not the ones I like). So he was held hostage too, but with a cute one.

Again, I appreciate the responses. I am a little short of time right now, but will try to respond to more when I get back later.

/me shrugs
I suppose...why(?)...you know one? ;)

Yeah, I considered that too :) Hey, maybe I am fugly too, who knows :D

That's great advice. Yes, I am trying to learn how to treat everyone respectably and equally.

You guys seem to have gotten the impression that I treat the one I'm not interested in like shit when I see her. LOL. If that were the case, I wouldn't be in this mess. I'd be outta the group in no time. In fact, I treat her very well, and equally well to as many girls as I can (including the other ones I don't find cute). I now realize that there is no excuse to be mean just because I am on the net, but well, at least you guys knew what I meant.

Mal, you have no idea how badly red hair and freckles goes over in your average middle school :) I'm not saying I can't understand where people are coming from, or that I don't agree with the notion that making snap judgements about people based on purely superficial qualities is a pretty narrowminded and ignorant way to view life - but I also detect a lot of people that really seem to come down on any judgement that is based on some superficial context, and I just think we all do it.

Alack and alas - chalk one up for the bastard side of pigglet mayhaps.

You know....I had NO idea what dave looked like when I agreed to go out with him. All I knew was that he had long hair, wasnt very tall and was over weight....I have dated some men that my mother called quasimodo (is that spelled right) and said I was the only person in the world that would have dated them.

I have MANY times talked to the "ugly, geeky, not as handsome as the rest in some peoples eyes" guys because I learned very early in my teens not to discount ANYONE as somebody I wouldnt like until I talked to them first.

so yes, I come down on any "shallow hal or halette" because looks are not everything. I try to keep a mind frame of....what if I was blind....would I like this person then? and it hasnt failed me yet.

Hehehe. The ring one sounds like a good one to try after I hit about mid 20's. Right now still 21 :D

Yes, I agree. However, with it being anything other than sexual or romantic (such as the Professional or Recreational), its much easier to deal with the "first-target-not-desired-target" simply by hanging out with them and spending a little time. I mean, if it's a guy, and you're straight, no prob, just go hang out a few times and you are chum chum. Then move on to desired target in group.

In the romantic situation, you cannot solve the problem this way (by hanging out with undesired initial contact a few times). If you do so, you are either leading them on, or expressing romantic interest. Either way, your chances with the rest of the group as anything other than friends go to shit.

My preferred solution would have been to do as others suggested *in the beginning*. Which was to simply state my interest in who I like, and tell the one I'm not interested in flat out that I'm not interested. I guess I could do this now, but the chances of success are alot slimmer, plus I've already invested some time, and instead of making shit blow up, I might as well get some friends out of it.

Match200, having read this thread, I came up with a few thoughts:

1. The language you chose to use to express yourself clouded the thought you were trying to convey. Happens often in life, and this is a great example. Had you said "I'll call the dominating one "Alice" and gone from there, the whole thread would have taken on a new tone.

2. You assume that these girls are being dominated (and you're there, so you may be correct in this assumption) but it may also be that "Alice" has asked the others to give her the shot at you. Seems like instead of being the player you want to be, you're being played.

3. I spent too many years chasing girls that weren't interested in me, and ignoring those that were. When I decided to lower my standards from VOGUE magazine models (after all, I'm not GQ material) I started dating a lot and gained confidence in dealing with women. Before long, I was able to get a date with just about anyone I wanted who wasn't already involved with someone (and even some that were).

The VOR bottomline: You've got a short amount of time here, and not enough to get into the cliche to figure out the dynamics well enough to manuever in it. Sit where you want, ask out who you want, but remember, you're being played just as much as you're trying to play them. You can either fight it and be alone, or have some fun with Alice.

That's exactly what I was going to say. :)

When I go out with a large group (men and women) and the new guy shows up, the women tend to 'push' the odd girl out up front especially if the odd girl has expressed interest in the new guy already.

match000, it seems to me that you can only be manipulated if you allow yourself to be manipulated. 21 is young (like I have room to talk at 26), but you're an adult and the adult thing to do would be to talk to the 'odd girl' and set things straight. I can't say it's going to get you any play with the other girls, but at least it won't leave any hard feelings when they leave I imagine.

The same thing used to happen to me -and then I realized -I was the fugly one!!.

My name is Shannon, and I have been called fugly more than once in my life

This is a little sidetrack, but this thread made me think about something...

notice how certain words when used to insult us when we were younger we avoid as much as possible? I personally used to be called fat all the time when I was younger.. Now, even though I try to describe someone as bigger, I will use terms, like bigger, heavy set, a bit larger, etc.. I don't like the term fat... Although I must admit, I have used it on occassion... :o

Yeah, being a firecrotch ain't easy. Especially in light of our increased risk of skin cancer.

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is smooth :D




What you're doing is worse than treating her like shit when you see her. At least if you did that she'd know where she stands. But you've chosen the chickenshit path of being nice to her face, then running off and reducing her to "fugly" when she's not looking.

And this crap about her using you is total bullshit. You presumably have a brain and the ability to use it. If you feel like you're being used, don't stay in the situation. It's not that hard to figure out.

Plus that statement about her using you smacks of "well I bought her dinner/gave her flowers/talked to her for 5 minutes, so she OWES me sex." That is also a bullshit attitude.

You have a lot of growing up to do before you are deserving of, or have even the slightest prayer of having a shot at, a real woman.

After reading this thread i must admit I am rather suprised at the vehemence of the responses to original poster. While I do not agree with the devious manner match000 went about meeting new girls, or using the term "fugly", he was looking for help and advice. What he got was many rather forceful beratings about his wordchoice and his dismissal of the unattractive girl. To me, it's a rather startling response that is not in line with TFP's usually excellent standard.

I'd also like to say that due to the ambiguous nature of "being nice/friendly" to other people, you can overlay many different hypothetical situations on top of match's description of events; and that these situations you've created have biases that match your own. The "fugly" girl could have been mild and unassuming, and asked nicely/plead the group to set her up with match000. She could also be a domineering bitch that made threats in order to get her way. Match000 could be fugly himself, and the girls all think he's below them and so push him over to the unattractive girl. The girl may be the unquestioned leader of the group, but kind as well so that the other girls in the group want to do something nice for her. She may have thought match000's "being nice" was flirting, and she thought she was flirting back and now they were a thing. Or perhaps she realizes he was just being nice to get to the other girls in the group, but doesn't care because she wants a piece of tail.

You can probably remember a time when you've been in a similar situation, in one of those roles. Maybe it hits close to home. But that's not match's problem- and we should help him out with his problem, whether it's misguided or not.

match000, I'm going to assume that you're not looking for a serious relationship, what with physical attraction being the base qualifier for your rating system. And while I don't see anything wrong with this standpoint, I feel you should place more weight into personality/intelligence/etc. rather than looks. :)

I'm curious about this point. Was it clear to you that she had a dominant personality immediately, or did you come to realize this over time?

You may be thinking she is dominant because you're "stuck" with her when in the group. The real leader of the group may be another of the girls, in this case.

This sort of annoys me. You're not really "stuck" with her. You're just trapped , yourself. You've led this girl on- acting all buddybuddy with her through falsehood. As I see it, you've got two options:
1. Tell her the truth, as tactfully as you can. Results will be unpredictable, but afterwards you can start from scratch. As a bonus, if you do it right, she'll respect your belated honesty and perhaps help you out with the rest of the group. (of course, if she's vengeful, she'll segragate your from the whole group. Which, of course, is where you are right now.)
2. Keep with the falsehood, and try to pull a girl from the side when she's not paying attention. This seems much more dangerous and difficult in my opinion.


Overall, I think you should be more upfront with your intentions. Girls are not the enemy. You shouldn't have the mindset that you're getting away with something, and have to be sneaky to achieve it. Believe it or not, girls like boys too, and enjoy sex as well.

Go out to have fun, to enjoy the night (or day) and flirt with unrestrained enthusiasm :D

The TFP is not a boys club where we hang out treating women like sides of meat and giggling about how ugly they are. The original poster is the one not up to the usually excellent standard of the TFP. And frankly if you want to post crap about cockblocking fugly girls, you deserve what you get.

I thought this was about an open exchange of ideas. I happen to find that idea repugnant, but it IS a viewpoint some in this world hold.

:) I never said you had to agree with him, just that you didn't need to berate him so harshly. And I don't want to single anyone out here- if TFP wants to keep maturing and evolving, people have to be more openminded and tolerant of different ideas, even if you don't agree with them.

If it's a mindset seen as shallow or ignorant, we should be educating instead of berating. More carrot, less stick; ya know?

You haven't seen many of my posts ;) Carrots are great but sometimes a guy needs a good whack with a stick to wake up and see what he's been doing wrong.

As for you calling for me to be openminded and tolerant of someone calling a woman a fugly cockblocker, uh, sorry, but no. I do not have to be openminded and tolerant about closemindedness and intolerance. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

And of course we can flip your argument right around and say that you're not being veryopenminded or tolerant of my post - - See, I'm all for openmindedness until it gets to the point that you're bending over backwards so others can run around doing whatever the hell they want. There comes a point where they're being such boors that someone has to stand up and squawk about it.

I'm frankly surprised that you're more concerned about the fact that I don't like people treating women like whorish sex objects than you are about the fact that people treat women like whorish sex objects.

You have obviously not pissed in as many bowls of cornflakes as I have here, this is pretty much par for the course :D

Any topic which brings an emotional response will be subject to such vehemence, even on tfp.

I agree with much of what you said. However, no, I am not expecting sex, especially NOT from her. lol :D

Yes yes! Skier hit it right on the head. These are the many main aspects that COULD be the situation. It's hard for me to even analyze correctly which one it is. She seems like a likeable leader, who seems to have gotten the other girls in to help her out. HOWEVER, I think the other girls don't mind if I hit on them. The two cute ones I liked, today I just sat my ass right down across and next to them (lucky positioning), ignoring the one i'm not interested in telling me to sit next to her at the END OF THE table. I *nicely* ignored her, saying "Oh, this spot is just fine."

So I start talking to one of the cute ones after the one i'm not interested in leaves, and after small talk I ask her for her dorm #. Apparently she "forgot it." Well, it *could* be true, it couldn't. You guys can have a laugh at me about that one. I *might* have got my ass rejected! hahahaha.

Anyways, I talk to her and the other cute one beside me most of dinner, and well the one i'm not interested was pissed off for the first 20 mins of dinner. She didn't say a word! Probably mad cuz I didn't sit next to her. Cuz I still talked to her occasionally just to keep things unhostile.

It seemed like she recovered though, and was back on my tail. Sometime later she managed to take pictures, and somehow placed herself next to me, then swapped me out of my seat so that I was moved AWAY from the two cute ones! Hella cockblocked again!!!!

One of the cute ones looked pissed, and about 15-20 seconds later she walked off with her friend. She barely said bye to anyone. Yes, she looked pissed alright. The other cute one always has excellent composure, and always is smiling. She also always stays with us to the end, with the one I'm not interested in and the one chasing after my buddy wingman, while the other girls leave.

Yes. Base looks is important to me, but of course so is everything else: personality/intelligence. But being realistic, would anyone date a girl/guy who they found *unattractive, to them*? C'mon, honesty here... I sure wouldn't. I have to be attracted to them on some level, and boy oh boy, any girl in the group EXCEPT the one I'm not interested in could be potential dating material (and they are not all conventionally cute, trust me. Some of you will find the "cute" ones I like to be, well, unattractive). Just my luck!

It was clear the was by far the most social of the group, *if she wants to be*. Cuz, today, after I didn't sit next to her, boy, my guy friend (wingman) told me he thought she was gonna blow her top. She didn't say a thing for 20 minutes.

But yes, one of the girls said "She is our leader. She took us to SF without knowing the place... blah blah."

Nope, option 1 does not work. Again, she nearly blew her top just cuz I didn't sit next to her! Now is that moody or what.
It seems most likely that although she is not outright domineering, she *will* segregate me from the group if I tell her that I'm not uninterested. In fact, she will do that anyway if I overtly hit on any other girl!

I tried #2 today. I asked the other cute girl for her dorm # when we were alone at the table, she "forgot her #", which either means she:
1) rejected my fugly ass.
2) truly forgot it
3) doesn't want to tell it to me cuz fear of reprisal from The One I'm Not Interested In. Since they are all dorming on the same floor, it is obviously not tactful for her to alienate herself from the group leader, which would result in most hostile, unfun, and boring time for her the rest of her 10 days here.

Yes yes! Thank you for this excellent advice. If I could do this again, I would have:
On the first day, NOT given The One I'm Intersted In my cell # and email.

I would have gone up to either/and both cute girls and asked them for *their* number and email.

I would have NOT been nice to The One I'm Not Interested In, for fear of leading her on. And I would have ONLY talked to the cute girls I am interested in (mainly, of course I'll do small chit-chat with everyone else.).

Well, for the people who hate me already, my inexperience can cheer you up:
1) Never kissed a girl
2) Never had sex (follows from 1)
3) Never had a GF (follows from 1&2)
4) Hardly interact with girls at all. (Engineer)

These facts also pretty much confirm I am no player.

Phew, long post!

Match000, despite the fact that more than a few people have said to lower your standards and go after the chick you aren't interested in....well, don't. My standards only have increased as I got more familiar with the concept of dating. As a consequence I am dating a woman who (in my opinion) is the hottest thing to have graced the TFP. I'm younger than you, and I share a semilar mentality toward the dating scene (and women in general) that you have.

The sad fact is that the chick you're not interested in is going to scathe any time you ignore her. She will get over it, and eventually someone will settle for her, or vice versa. But you don't have to be that guy. Go after the cute girl who didn't reject you, full steam ahead.

And personally, being that you didn't call the lady "fugly" to her face, I see no reason why your decision to use the term has been looked down upon so harshly. You shouldn't have to explain your motivation or logic behind the phrase. It's just your phrase. If people are so blinded by their addiction to P.C. content, they need to lighten up. This is, after all, an internet forum. If Halx or one of the mods didn't like the word, then they could add it to the forum censoring tool. Since that obviously hasn't happened, I feel you have whatever right you wish to use the term for whatever purpose you feel is appropriate for communicating your situation and views.

Who by?

Idiots?

The Blind?

Sheesh!

If anyone called you fugly in my hearing I'd stick up for you.

Hmm.....

I'd stick up for you anyway :icare:

(nt saying what I'd stick where, mind you) :crazy:

Yes, I agree, and I intend to do just that. There is a hitch, though. The cute one who didn't reject me (the same one who stuck it through to the end with me and The One I'm Not Interested In in all the dinners so far, also along with the other girl going after my guy friend who is there too) has a BF back home across the ocean in Taiwan.

The weird thing is: on the first day we met, this cute one with BF asked for my email, and wanted to take a pic with me (only The One I'm Not Interest In did that also). Then she sticks it through to the end, while all other girls leave... And she's always smiling and calm, no change in mood... And she didn't seem to mind when The One I'm Not Interested In cockclocked me again, whereas the other cute one who possibly rejected me got up and left looking pissed off.

She is confusing me like no tomorrow... she has a BF back home! Why does she always stay, always smile at me, and is so nice to me in general.

My friend's theories:
1) She is playing wingwoman for The One I'm Not Interested In.
2) She is more comfortable hanging out until the end BECAUSE she is NOT single. (Makes sense..)
3) The One I'm Not Interested In is using her to make me stay. Heck, she was the only reason I stayed with the group after day 1 (before I noticed the other cute girl).
4) She's decoy so that I might hit on her but not on other, eligible girls.

Thanks for your understanding on this front. This was what I felt when I made the original post.


EDIT: PS, from now on, I will refer to "The One I'm Not Interested In" as TOINII: "Toinii". Maybe this new word is urbandictionary.com-able :)

My Theories
4. She was being polite. It's very easy to interpret the wrong way if: (a) you are unfamiliar with their culture, which no matter how much you think you know, you really don't. or (b) you want to think it.
5. She views you as a friend. End of story. You were nice to her, you showed her around, end of story.
6. She might like you, but there's less than 10 days left before she goes away and realistically probably won't be coming back, so really, what's the point?

From what I've personally seen, you're pretty much looking at 4 and 5. Hate to break it to you. Playing "tour guide" is great if you're looking to make friends, and that's really about it.

She forgot her number? Speaking as a female, I am going to be bold and say there is a ninety-nine percent chance that she is not interested in you.

Also, part of what annoyed me about your initial post is that you didn't pick ONE cute girl from the group to try to hit on... you picked two. That means you werent especially intrigued by either, you just want a cute girl to fuck. It comes off as very shallow.

I'm still cringing about your use of the word fugly, btw.

Yep!

A nice guy?

We may be coming down a bit hard on the boy, but frankly, I'm not interested in giving him advice on how to brush off women he's used so he can get laid. That might be the advice he asked for, but frankly, learning to think on a more mature level and treat women with some respect is going to stand him in much better stead in the long run.

It wasn't even particularly the use of the word "fugly" that got me, but this:

It sounds like you were using her and knew you were using her. There's nothing wrong with being nice to someone who's friendly when you're not interested in them. But doing so with the express purpose of using them as a means to get to someone else is pretty slimy. There are two things going on here, though: the situation, and your attitude. It's not the situation that most of us are reacting to: there's a girl who's interested in me, and as long as she's around, the women I'm REALLY interested in won't do anything. That's a valid problem. However, your attitude about it - using the friendly fugly woman to get to her friends, calling her fugly in the first place - is what is setting most of us off.

I think someone has learned an important lesson here.

Never use 'fugly' in mixed company :D

Hmm, I'm afraid this makes the most sense. Either/Both cute girls could be more like 4 and 5. But you know what? I'm going to pick the one without a BF and just try, because like what others said, if I don't, I'll never know...

Probably so. Well, I'm going to have to try anyways, but on the one that "forgot" and not on the one that has a BF. If I find out for sure that she has no interest, I'll lay off in an instant.

No, actually, I just didn't explain the story completely enough. I was only romantically interested in the cute one with a BF, but I didn't know she had a BF. Once I found that out, I became much more interested in the other cute one... It's just the one with a BF gives all these mixed signals, its weird. Most likely she is just being friendly, like MonkeySugar said.

Maybe yeah. Well, I was a little too nice to begin with, so that's what got me into all these problems in the first place. I should have just told The One I'm Not Interested In that I had zero interest, and rejected her by not giving her my email and phone number.


Ok, I understand your concerns. I was just trying to be friends with her, and was definitely NOT trying to lead her on. If I could do this again, I will probably still try to be friends with her, but tell her from the get-go that I have zero interest.

Regarding the "fugly" word stuff, I had already realized that people might be offended in the original post, and then had apologized for it *preemptively* in the 3rd post. I really can't say anything else more, except that next time I'll use "unattractive" instead...

Yes. I have learned to never use "fugly" in mixed company, even on the internet.

To some extent, I also felt like an internet forum would be open enough for me to forget the facade of the politics needed for daily interaction in real life. This doesn't mean, you know, I thought I could be rude and obnoxious and disprespectful... just that I could be honest without having to "tone down" or understate my ideas. I only used "fugly" to get across how *unattracive* the girl was *to me*, not to deliberately offend people. I will keep such political ideas of internet forum interaction in mind in the future :thumbsup:




And again, I appreciate all of your responses so far. I *have* improved as a person, and gained much more experience through your collective comments, whether they be suggestions or irate bashings at my head. :)


Suggestions are welcome on deciphering the mixed signals from the girl with BF, though...
and any other suggestions are welcome as well :)

And we're told we don't need a MEN'S Lounge.

That does seem to be the case.

However, I've got to speak out as (perhaps the only) female here who has no problem with fugly in this context ...

I know I know, people can't say everything exactly how they think it, that's part of tact.
Of course.

But still .... I don't find this way of thinking that unusual ... so I suppose I'm not super-shocked/offended/insulted to see it actually typed out ...



I may also be biased, 'fugly' has been one of my favourite words since I first heard it several years ago

Indeed, i agree with Cyn's advice completely

Sweetpea

IMHO it shouldn't be a "facade of politics" --- you should have enough respect for women in general to avoid using a term as base as "fugly" without a whole lot of pre-thought.

It's things like this that make me fear that the gender gap is unbridgeable.

Anyway, you could just do what I do and be blunt. Tell her you like her and be man enought to put up with whatever shit ensues.

I have an idea, how bout ya'll get past the term FUGLY, and on to something a bit more helpful?

45 posts about how a word is oh so damned bad is hardly any worse than calling someone fugly.


My advice, since yer just in it for the fuck anyway, is to just lay it all down, man up, go for broke, whatever you wanna call it. Try to get the girl you like alone somehow, and just say "Hey you wanna do something later? Like, just the two of us?"

It's not that hard to figure out if a girl is interested or not.

By the way, the people saying that he's a player, and that he might be getting played.

1) He is surely no player.
2) A player does not get played :)

ummm how about No?


Obviously the term strikes a discordant note, and is worthy of response, regardless of gender.

I'd say yes, move on, because the point has already been made quite well. match000 appears to have seen the error of his ways. Anything more at this point is just piling on.

DOGPILE ON MATCH!!!

oh... not that kind of pile

agreed, that's why I didn't address it at all. To me it was just chaff from the actual wheat.

I still stand by my own original post in this thread.

Personally, i'm facinated by your situation, i think it happens more often than people think, oh the games that men and women play . . .
It seems human nature is to often 'do something to get something.'

So do we have an update match000 ? :)

Did you lay the cards out and ask the girl you are actually interested in to do something just the two of you?

inquiring minds wish to know ;) hehe

Sweetpea

Ugly- Not pleasing to the eye; unsightly


Is ugly offensive? It sounds better when we sugar coat words. Unattractive?
Isn't that the same thing as ugly?

Fucking ugly or fugly sounds harsh. If someone were to call me that I would be devastated. Fugly is guy macho shit that I don't say, but it doesn't offend me. Some women I know are ugly.(thats my personal opinion.) Like the girl who works down at Xtra Mart convient store. Wow! Thats ugly! The girl I first had sex with, thats ugly! You know what, come to think of it, she was fugly! :lol:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To refer to a women as fugly is not very nice, but he was just getting his point across. Its just what I think. :D

Match--I know what you mean man. I would make your actions speak for you--do what you planned to do, if the ugly girl hits on you don't give her the time of day. Ignore her attempts. If she doesn't get the message, then at least you had a game to play the past couple days and something entertaining to think about. But in the end that's all this is: entertainment. They're leaving in 10 days, you're not going to meet your soulmate, nor do I think you're trying to. If you do this you also won't be 'using' her or giving her any false hopes--just let her see straight out that you're interested in her friends, and not her. That girl is the sum of what she's made herself to be, and if she is rejected all the time, then it's up to her to worry about whether she's happy or wants to make changes in her life and live differently.

If anything you should worry about getting over some of your 'first' hurdles because otherwise, it doesn't matter if you have a cute girl if you don't know what to do with her once you have her =P

I can see where all the ladies slamming you are coming from but, fact is, this is not a perfect world. People will hit on those who are attractive to them. A shitty, shallow personality can turn someone off just as much as a size 36 waist. But a great personality, to some, myself included, cannot salvage somebody who I have no physical attraction to whatsoever. It's just a non-negotiable point, and I think to fault a young guy for this is kind of unfair. You can always choose to change yourself, if you want to attain something. If that's being good looking and being able to get the attention of the guys who catch your interest, then eat a salad, and go for a jog. If that's not a priority for you, and you're happy with yourself, that's perfectly fine, but then you can't blame the 'hot whiney barbie chick' for stealing the show. It's all just a matter of motivation.

Of course there is a difference between being true to your personal preferences and being sensitive about hurting someone's feelings when you reject them. To tell someone they could be miss america (with a bag over their head) is pretty fucking cruel, but I'm also not out to live my life so other people don't have their feelings hurt. If I'm not interested, i'll let you know it in as nice an unambigiously as I can, but bottom line is I'm not interested. So stop trying.

GL match, don't take it too seriously. Try and have fun with it.

I see. yes good point. I enjoy your clarrification and discussion of the term fugly.

I think my 36 inch waist is offended greatly

I didn't mean 36 inch waist, I meant a 'size' 36, which is like a 50++ something inch waist :p

Keep digging, man - you'll hit bedrock soon. :crazy: ;)

I vote for option #3.

Learn how to respect other people regardless of how they look.

The cute girls probably don't like you because you think their friend is "fugly". You may not say it, but I'm sure that mean attitude comes across to them.

You need to grow up before you go around chasing females. Just because it's behind her back, and she won't read it doesn't make it right.

/end rant

Wow.. that Is all I have to say about this thread. I have been reading through about half the responses and am mildly amused at how this thread has evolved. It is obviously a testament to the diverse group of people here at TFP.
I must say that I myself am a good-humored person and take offense very rarely, so when I read the original post it almost had me rolling with laughter. Why? I'm not real sure, maybe it’s the fact that I could relate to the situation at hand and am able to laugh about it. Hell, I think all or most of us here have been in or seen this type of situation. It’s kind of one of those things that are funny because it’s true. I honestly think that this would have made a great Seinfeld episode. Ha. And to the reference to the word "fugly", I must honestly admit that I have never heard of that word and it makes me laugh. No offense to women or anything, but I think the original poster was using it in good humor. But that’s just my take on it. I do feel bad for the poster as I think he's getting a beating here. This is why talk of this nature is left for the "locker room" or so to speak.

But the gals have a key to our locker room, so . . . .

Yes, exactly. I of course would do no such thing as tell someone I find them unattractive to their face. Only in cases where they will never know, such as this one...

Thanks man. As simple as it sounds, that is great advice: just try and have fun with it. I have found that without any "agendas", so to speak, and just being out to have fun, I have 100x more fun, and 100x "benefits" (unintended and unplanned :)

Yes, thank you for your understanding.

Well, I figure its high time for an update for all you kind, inquiring minds who were helping me with your diverse viewpoints :D

So we went ice skating as a group a few days prior, and after coming back from ice skating the group left me and The One I'm Not Interested In in the back deliberately so she could lay *her* cards on the table. The girls I were trying to 'hit on' were all called away by the other girls, so I had to talk it out with The One I'm Not Interested In.

Taking the GREAT advice (not being sarcastic here) of the people on the forum, I explained that we were both adults and that we can talk it over slowly and maturely. She was having soooo much trouble even getting to the part where she says "I like you", that we walked 8 city blocks before those words came out. Her ultimate expression was that she just wanted to find out if there was any interested from me before she left, so she wouldn't have any regrets or unknowns or mystery after she leaves...

In the interim, I saved her the trouble of saying it and tried to explain that I wasn't interested in her as kindly, slowly, and gently as I could. I explained how people have preconceived notions of ingrained attraction, and that to most people, the people they meet either fit in their own attractive category, or unattractive category. I basically explained that she was not my type. This seemed to help her get over it alot, as I never said that I found her unattractive; just that she was not my type. We had a good long talk, and I talked about my previous rejections by a few girls as well. I explained that I had continued being friends with those girls, and that sometimes people just can't work these things out mutually, but can still be friends.

She then asked me who *did* I like, and I very stupidly (being very inexperienced) answered I like two of her friends in the group. Yes, what a jerk I was! Later I realized that not only did that make me look like a superficial "player", it also hurts alot. However, she took it well, although she did ask me, "Can you do something for me? It's very selfish of me to ask... but can you wait until we all return to asia before you tell the two girls you like them?"

I said, "well, no I don't think I can do that..." She was ok with it and we just talked more, and overall throughout the whole conversation I had kept saying I thought of her as a very good friend, platonically and all. Things seemed fine after our long talk.

So now we are good friends, and the next day we see each other and everything is fine. The previous day at ice skating, I had been hitting on the 2nd cute girl who I THOUGHT didn't have a BF. Turns out she did; and she had been very uncomfortable with my hitting on her. The One I'm Not Interested In tells me that she thinks I should not express interest (lay my cards bare on the table) to either of the cute girls, as that would make them think lesser of me because they already had BF's. I asked The One I'm Not Interested In if she had told the 2 girls I liked them, and she said "No." She made sure that *I* wouldn't have any regrets with not asking, and it's actualy true, I don't have that much regrest. MAINLY because one of the cute girls I know is nice to me, but very attached to her BF. The other one is simply disinterested (and also attached to BF). So that was easy..

So now we all became good friends, and it was much easier to just hang out and be friends with everyone since The One I'm Not Interested In is not hitting on me anymore, I'm not hitting on both cute girls anymore, and overall noone is hitting on anyone anymore! (Even the girl who hits on my buddy wingman said she was simply being platonically friendly). So tonight we all had a great time, and I think in the coming week before they leave our small subgroup (not the whole group, as a few feel distant to me because of my previous hitting on the 2nd cute girl... How was I supposed to know she didn't have a BF!), will have a blast and at least a few more great times...

So yeah, although there was ALOT of drama, things turned out well, and I think I have made a bunch of great friends (platonically speaking!).

I might have more to say, but its 5 am and I need to sleep :D


Your collective comments REALLY helped alot, everyone; I think the primary thing that allowed me to continue being friends with everyone is that I was able to so maturely and kindly express my disinterest, and that she was able to so maturely and kindly take it in stride. Overall, we were all pretty mature and grown up about it, and that is what saved the friendships, so to speak..

As for the advice to simply lay my cards bare and express interest in the 2 girls, I did that too; I didn't lay the cards bare, but I made it freakin' obvious I had interest. It was good advice, except that both girls are already taken.. so nothing can happen. One girl took it well and is very nice to me, the other not so well and is distant, thus also making one or two of her friends distant to me too. Meh, I chalk it up to different personalities... the core group obviously does not think of me as a jerk, as we just had a great night of fun and they already wanted to do more stuff in the coming days :D

Thanks for all the help! I hope this experience of mine can also help you guys who face or will face similar situations to come out unscathed and for the better :)

now that's wonderful.

I tend to think that when you remove the "sexual" aspects of interfacing with people it's going to be alot more interesting and pleasurable because you aren't worried about "ruining the moment" or "losing the opportunity."

I'm glad that eventually you laid it out for everyone involved.

First, I'm glad you laid it all out and did so kindly. That shows a little bit of growth from the first post in this thread.

Second, you may want to rethink the order of the above list. Start with number 4, interacting with girls. Don't always be on the make. You'll find that if you do this enough, you won't have to go on the make to get to 1 and 3, it'll happen naturally.

Third, you'll have better luck with number 2 if you move it to the end of the list. I'd suggest trying it this way:

A. Interact with girls. Really, we're fun to be around, and we don't bite. At least not until you get to D.
B. Go on a date / kiss the girl. Spend a little time at this stage. It can be a lot of fun all by itself. Spend enough time at this stage and it becomes C.
C. Have a girlfriend.
D. Have sex.

I'm not saying C has to come before D, it hasn't always with me, but if you make A-C your priority, Di will come in time.

I just want to chime in to say that the above is some of the best terminology I've heard in a while for going on the prowl. Sounds like something from a Bogart movie.

This thread made me laugh more then once. I never use the term ugly I just say "She's not my type".

christ, lets all act like the fucking thought police. this guy isnt calling this girl fugly to her face, and so what, let him say his god damn piece. this girl is being overly aggressive and trying to inact something that isnt and wont be there. which is the point, and denying him getting with any of her friends. yes, maybe it is slightly immature, and there are more diplomatic ways about making this point -- but he's probably young and inexperienced, so give him some leway and stop acting like fucking assholes, and even worse, hypocrites. if you want to act like you're about building community, do it, instead of inacting your stay at home, addicted to the internet liberal bull shit on others.

ok, my experience with this, is that you should just go after one of the girls you like. try to develop a rapport with her ASAP, since you have a small window of opportunity, and get her number. try to find some common bond (playing a sport, or even liking the same music or wanting to see the same movie) to justify isolating some time off to her with yourself. then, as a shark smells blood in the ocean, go for the kill. voila, love, even temporarily, is made.

Just as an aside, i've always thought fugly was "fat and ugly" not "fucking-ugly". not really much of a difference of how offensive it is, just curious as to what the correct term is.

There's your first mistake right there. There's no way that this can end up well. Choose one girl and stick with her. Using someone as a bridge, and then brushing them aside to persue a futile attempt to take 2 girls out on a date is just foolish.

I actually never addressed it as "thought police" but please let me point out the fallacy of your statment.

If I don't call someone :insert racial epiphet here: to their face that still does not make it right. Respect starts from within the heart, not as a condition of political correctness, but as a condition of interaction with another human being.

......when i was in high school i told my dad that my friend was coming over after school and i was going to make her dinner then we were going to go to the movies... and he says to me


....do we need a sign?
lol

Fucking Ugly is how I learned it ...

and it seems that dictionary.com agrees.

Yep, I've always heard fugly as a contraction of fucking ugly as well...

alec, thanks for your understanding.

update: girls = too much drama. In the future, i think i'll stick to ONE girl at a time, even hanging out with a bunch in groups is really mentally tiring. Erg, every little thing you do is picked apart and dramatized...

PS. i meant fugly as in fucking ugly. Actually, she's not *that* bad.. perhaps butterface is more appropriate.

Tell me about it. This is exactly the reason I tend to prefer hanging out with a group of guys to a group of girls.

:lol: Keep digging that hole.

I was going to say the same thing. Some cards are best kept close to your vest.

Its obvious nothing we've said had any impact

specially when people like alec just have to try to make what he did seem all right.

I can always hope that people like this, will one day be on the receiving end, maybe then it will make sense to you.