so the bloke is just suppsed to choose some fugly chick just to appease some peoples ideals here..just great...and all because "some fuglies need love too". the fuglies will find love, but they will find someone who truely finds them attractive. if he doesnt, then he is free to ask the rest of the 7 out and not feel coerced to sit with the fuglie one.

who said he was supposed to pick the one he wasnt attracted to? I dont recall anybody saying that.

all we (or I at least) am saying is lack of "looks" does not equal being on the receiving end of disrespect.

If he thinks she is unattractive - why is everybody so up in arms? There is no chemistry from his side - so what is the big deal? If he was artificially nice to her just to get in good with her friends, then THERE is the problem. But he was just being genuinely nice...NO problem.

Don't waste your time trying to buy in to something you have no interest in. Tread lightly on asking the other one(s) out since there is going to be a territorial thing happening.

So you think she isn't attractive... maybe, perhaps, fugly - I love a good looking face...I don't know that I would be attracted to somebody who wasn't good looking. From THIS woman's perspective, it is OK to think she is fugly, or butterfaced (lmao). It's even ok to share those thoughts here...be careful not to let her think so though.

We're not up in arms that he's not attracted to someone. We're up in arms over the fact that instead of saying "I'm not attracted to her" he has to say "she's a fugly cockblocker," and then later ammends that to "well not fugly, but she's a butterface." It's all about respect for your fellow human beings, and this guy obviously hasn't developed any.

The community prides itself so much on respect. We say "I don't agree with you" rather than "you're a fucktard." Why is it then surprising that we object when someone comes out being blatantly disrespectful of this individual? Not only is he being disrespectful to her, but he is being disrespectful to all women. He is in essence saying "I group women into two categories. Attractive, and ugly. I try to score with the attractive ones, but while I'm pleasant to the ugly girl's face, when she's not looking I talk down about her to anyone who will listen. Furthermore, a woman's value is based at least in large part on how attractive she is." Crap like that is not, nor should it be, tolerated around here.

I've learned this lesson many-a-time in my young life. The key of snagging the girl (not sure if this works the other way around) is to make sure you establish that you are interested in a relationship early on. Otherwise you just become friends.

In the first situation, it seems that you have a situation I like to call "the loser setup" (sorry about being blunt, but what else can I say). Girls usually travel in packs containing at least one girl who is obviously uglier than the rest. Now, on occasion, in order to make her feel good about herself, the group will attempt set the ugly chick up with a guy, not considering the fact that they are wasting their, and what is infinitely worse, your time and pissing you off in the process. Girls usually do this to make everybody feel better about themselves. It's like when guys play sports or video games or whatever.

I got the impression that he didn't like the girl because she was annoying.

^ ^ ^
| | |
w00p there it is!

So if someone is being annoying it is okay to say respectfully that someone is "fugly" or "sorry... maybe she's not really fugly, but more butterface"

Chalk it up to a learning experience, and practice the fine line of friendly but not flirty. And for the record I didn't find youre use of fugly offensive, I first heard it on the simpsons and simply thought it was a comedic term, and figured you were just being light hearted about the situation. If ya ask me the TFP can be a little immature about some things...

I guess I don't get how calling someone a fugly cockblocker and a butterface is mature, but wanting people to be respectful is not.

perhaps mature was not the right word for what he wanted to say...

How about obsessive?

Overly-Politically Correct?

Having the attitude of being better than others?



You think you're so damn mature yet you'll look down upon someone else for their actions. How is that mature? Not just you, not singling you out, but rather pointing toward everyone in this thread who thinks they are so much better than match000 because they adapt themselves to a pathetic political correctness that sucks the humor right out of life.

I am the last person to think of as politically correct.

Simply put I am RESPECTFUL to my fellow human beings don't you try to be?

I will say that I attempt to be respectful to people who I think deserve respect.

But, if you're asking if I will call a a fugly girl, fugly, the answer is yes I will.

So what you're saying is unless a woman is pretty, she doesn't deserve any respect. Many (hell, most) of us disagree rather vehemently with that.

So what you're saying is that every single person on these boards thinks exactly the same way you do.


(I can make vague generalizations based off of a small portion of what I said and taking it completely out of context)

and then we are called pathetically politically correct.

I really wonder about people sometimes, jesus christ people....is it THAT hard to not do things that can cause hurt feelings? Is it THAT difficult to have respect for someone. Im sure there are many people here that I wouldnt put in the "attractive" category, simply because we all have different types...just because "you" think someone is "fugly" or not, doesnt mean the rest of the world agrees with you, what it DOES mean is that person is entitled not to be called names just because of your opinion of their attractivness level.

I suspect Im going to be called thin skinned next since I think terms like that cause emotional reactions.

I didn't assume anything. I based my conclusion on everything you said in that post. Calling someone fugly is not respectful. You said you are respectful to people that you think deserve it. You then said you call some women fugly. Unless you're schizophrenic or an idiot who can't join two thoughts together, you are saying you do not feel "fugly" women deserve respect.

You, however, took my statement and demonstrated an ignorance of vocabulary. "most" does not ever mean "all." There's a reason those two words aren't next to each other in the thesuarus. So no, I am not saying that "every single person" on these boards thinks exactly the same way I do. I am saying that MOST of the people on these boards does not dismiss someone as being unworthy of respect simply because she is not physically attractive.

Keep digging. . .

I really wonder about people sometimes too.

When one word can cause how many people to flip a lid and whip out their "holier than thou" personality so quickly, it is sad indeed in my opinion.

I'll answer the questsion's you put forth,

"is it THAT hard to not do things that can cause hurt feelings?" Yes, if I want to do it this is America.. I'll fuckin do it :)

"Is it THAT difficult to have respect for someone." Yes, If I don't know the person, I don't have respect for them, you earn respect, it is not given.

Now if you would be so kind as to answer mine.


Is it that hard to just get over it?

Well I guess that's about the only question I have, but it's pretty damn valid if you ask me.

To me this has nothing to do with respect etc to fellow humans.

There are lots of people I think are fugly, assholes, idiots, butterfaces etc.

What this is a lesson in, is manners. If you post on a message board, which has mixed company, you should figure out that you are no longer with your best buddy who you can say anything to about anyone. Obviously the OP doesn't understand women or he wouldn't have had the problem to start with, and he just compounded that mistake on these boards. Some lessons in maturity are painful on the emotions, some, like this one are just slaps upside the head. We all said stupid things as a child at some point.

I did to your statement what you did to mine.

If you have as much common sense as you think you do, it was not difficult at all to take my statement and realize it means something completely different than the interpretation you chose to use of it. Simply so you could feel superior.

It's quite simple to state that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," which is where the respect starts. You've not only disrespected the unattractive person, but you've also made it difficult for the person who finds the unattractive attractive to express it, thus disrespectful to them as well.

You've obviously shown to me, that you don't deserve my respect since you give yours out conditionally.

As a person with compassion for others, yes even people I dont know, which obviously some people dont posses....yes its that hard to get over it. But as you seem a person who doesnt give a crap what other people think why do you care?

It seems you're just advocating the behaviour and I think thats really sad. Its just good there are people in the world that dont really mind that quality in a person, same as there are people that dont mind that I abhor it.

anything else?

obviously I give mine out conditionally, because I'm not naive, and that's how I was raised.

You give the respect where it's earned, I respect alot of people all who have earned it.

What you're showing me is that I don't deserve your respect, because I have different feelings on a situation than you do.

Ever think people grow up differently? Have completely different senses of morality than you do?

You think you're better than people because they don't fit into your sense of morality.

I think I'm better than people because they haven't "earned" my respect yet.


Po-tay-to?
Po-tah-to?

Maybe you should think about what this board is actually all about, it's about acceptance of others points of view. It's not about YOUR POINT OF VIEW IS WRONG WRONG WRONG YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY IMMATURE AND DON'T DESERVE MY RESPECT.


You do have a bit of respect from me, simply because you have a belief and you obviously use it in your day to day life.

Though it's tainted by the fact that you won't understand that others who grow up in completely different enviroments than you, can and will have different sense of morality and respect than you.

I see and I understand where you are coming from. I live in a melting pot of 8 million people who have to all get along and have enough respect to bump into each other and stand next to each other.

So the guy picking up the trash doesn't get your respect because he's not done anything to earn it. The guy trying to make a right turn in the car next to you he's not getting your respect because he didn't do anything to earn it. The person taking your order at the local fast food joint, he doesn't deserve your respect because he's getting paid to get your your food, and he's not earned it. The guy you are staning in line behind or in front of, they don't deserve your respect because what have they done to deserve it?

Yes, the post I just made goes for you as well.

In short - how can you actually act like you're better than someone else, when this entire community is about acceptance of others points of view. It is NOT about coming here to tell someone they are ignorant, or that you abhor them, because their different than you.

there are those of us that dont there are forms of respect that dont have to be earned.

do you think common courtesty has to be earned too?

Why the hell would I care about these people in the first place? I don't know them, I probably never will.

No they do not get my respect, why would they?

They will get my common courtesy, yes, but my respect? Fuck no, What have they done to make me respect them?

Please tell me what your definition of respect is, because as far as my parents raised me common courtesy is the lowest form of respect.

You're reaching for reasons to act like you're superior to me morally, next are you going to ask me if I go around raping little kids because omg yu dun respektc them!

Just stop before it becomes a pissing contest.

please remind me where I used the word ignorant.

you're not being very accepting of people's different point of view either. You insist on blasting those of us that dont think the way you do, so you're really no different...I dont see where I've said I have no respect for you.

and I didnt say I abhor the person, I said I abhor the quality.

Thats no different from me telling my daughter....I love you but I hate what you just did....now is it?

I would define respect, as a... Mutual Understanding of Worth.

Now, how do I know that guy working at the drive-thru isn't a lazy piece of shit?

Or the lady taking a right turn next to me isn't a crackwhore heading downtown?



How can respect just be "given" away.



And, No, I don't believe common courtesy is the lowest form of respect, it is something completely different from respect.

ahahahaha any one who knows me would never think I'd claim to be morally superior to anyone....oh thats funny. I guess my parents just taught me that you just dont do what some of you are doing....I guess its a difference of concious.

oh and I dont "reach" for anything.

Okay... let's all take a step back. Since I've been posting in this thread, I don't want it to seem biased that I moderate it or edit anything.

But let's look at what we are talking about because we are all long time members here having a row about semantics and point of view.

We agree that this place is to be a place of respect, acceptance, and tolerance.

We agree that people should be extended common courtesy.

We diverge from that point.

the dictionary.com definition of respect:

I think I see where we diverge in definition.

you are using the primary definition and I am using the secondary. I believe that Shani and shakran is also using the secondary, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

I agree the definition is different for us.

At this point I'm trying to understand how someone can give someone "my definition" of respect, without them earning it?

and menoman, my apologies as if you did not continue this discourse, my level of respect would have dropped to the lowest it could be for an individual.

my statement was quite knee jerk.

I guess I just respect all people until they give me a reason not to. I dont see how respecting a persons feelings and not doing something that "I" consider childish is something that another person has to earn from me. They only thing they can do is "un earn" it.

You are correct, for your definition it is one to be earned.

I do not give that level of respect away freely either.

But the second definition is the one that I tend to give away before I even realize you are standing in front of me. I think we can agree that we do not trample on someone in various levels of the second definition of respect. Be it cut in front of someone in line, take their possessions, and the like.

I can agree that common courtesy, as I call it, is something that is given out as a stepping stone to earning respect.

Though I can't say that 2+ pages of blasting someone for using a word is respectful, which is kind of what I was trying to point out, though the word respect was getting into the way a little bit -_-

arrgh... I'm trying to express that I do respect you, I do respect your opinion in all the definitions above.

the fact that we are all trying to find where the common ground really is shows we are what this place is really about, and for that I thank you all.

Can we agree that definition 2 is a good definition that equates to common courtesy?

yeah that's what I meant.

So if we agree that definition 2 of respect (To avoid violation of or interference with) is equal to common courtesy, would you not give that "common courtesy" or respect to someone's feelings?

My example: If someone who went to Cambridge or some other Ivy League school, and they called you "stupid" and "uneducated" because you don't have their level of education, would that not be as harmful in the same manner as "fugly?"

perhaps it would, but I'm not saying it's different.

I'm just saying, well... I guess I'm rather, hoping, that people nowadays wouldn't actually be offended by a namecaller. I call people stuff all the time, and if someone calls me a name, which I'm sure I'm called an Asshole more often than most (probably a few times it was "thought" but not posted in this thread -_^ ) I'm not going to get all mopey, and crushed.

Chances are I will laugh, coz it's probably true in however way said person views the world, and thats that.



I just find it hard to believe that in today's society, where words are abused until they don't even mean the same thing as they used to, that someone could be offended by something like this.

Also, it's my feeling that if they are offended, then they should lighten up.

I'm sorry guys, it looks like I started way more than I bargained for. Regardless of my view on this, I hope you guys and girls do not let this one small point be the cause of any more fallout.

Thanks for everyone's views. I still agree with Menoman, but I also agree that in mixed company and amongst non-close friends I need to watch the language more.

:)

so....before "nowadays" it was okay to be offended by a namecaller.....but now its not? What changed to make it more ok to call a person names than it used to be? :confused:

I agree, "sticks and stones" and all that rot. Words are words and if you let them hurt you they will hurt you.

We're examing how people can have respect for one's feelings and still express their own thoughts without prejudice. That is the challenge presented by this topic.

I think that we've found our common ground now we have to get to it.

My guess is you were called names, and that's why you're so adamant to judge me because I have the balls, nah, the self-confidence, to laugh when I'm called something.

Until you actually say something that isn't aimed to 1) make me look dumb 2) make you look better than others, I'll refrain from even responding.

See, I think you understand, you just said exactly what I mean

"if you LET them hurt you, they will hurt you"

There ya go, I think that sums up exactly what I mean by "lighten up" and "toughen up" when you're called stuff.


(I guess what I'm saying, is if people would just look at things from a not so serious, not so "oh we must be PC about everything" point of view.

Would there even be a challenge to this thread?

ok, I give up...I cant even ask for clarification of your statements without you getting all....oh you're trying to make me look stupid and make yourself look better, which is not what Im doing........YOU said it, not me...if you dont care to explain it then fine.

A sarcastic remark, that changes the subject completely away from the point I was making, is hardly asking for clarification.


Did you honestly think that I meant that it was perfectly "OK" to be offended by names? If you honestly thought that's what I meant, and you were asking for clarification, then I will comply.

But to me, it surely seems like you're answering all my questions with questions that are meant to be the "high road" way of thinking.

Interesting, as we are in agreement that "thick skin" etc. and to have enough self confidence to shake it off.

But I have to point out that #1 or #2 is where this I see Shani coming from... which brings us right back to the beginning, since if you had "thick skin" then you'd not bothre.... but I think I can round this out.. for you it's "make you look dumb" and "make one look better than others" that happens to be your trigger, your button.

Can we agree that fugly, is possible to be someone else's button or trigger?

I am not offended by someone who acts better than other people, I actually pity them most of the time, because I was like that in high school, I was in the crowd who had anything they wanted, had all the nice clothes. I know how pathetic it is to honestly believe you're better than someone else.

No, what I meant Cynthetiq, was that I refuse to argue with someone like that, because the arguements will never end, due to the "holier than thou* never admitting being wrong, even if they were face to face with flawless logic perhaps. That is how I felt she was coming off, so that's how I played my cards.

I will try this one more time....and I will note...that as a rule in discussion's like this I do not try to come off as sarcastic.....you said and I quote

I was trying to understand why a person "nowadays" should be any less offended by a name caller then in the past. Name calling, IMO, was/is/always will be something thats not nice....how can times make it any less hurtful to the person on the receiving end? Now Im not talking about joking around name calling...yes I do my fair share of that....I am talking serious name calling.

I stated earlier in this thread that yes I've been called names....thats not a secret from anyone....but it hasnt happend in a long time (at least to my face lol), but I can 100% guarantee you that I would be of the same opinion if I'd never had the word "fugly" or any other word directed towards me.

Anyone that knows me knows that it takes a LOT for me to make a detrimental comment about ANYONE because I dont really see the point in it. Yes, to a degree I see myself as "above" that kind of behaviour, I dont deny that....but I have NEVER tried to make myself seem better than anyone cause lord knows I have my faults just like anyone else, if it comes off that way Im sorry...If we were talking in person you'd know that wasnt my intention at all

like I said in the same post as you quoting me.

words today are used, and abused soooo much, that they don't even mean the same thing anymore.

Someone calls you a fucker, and they are serious, can you actually get upset about this? about being called a fucker?

I hardly think the word nigger means the same thing as it once did... and that's one of the names that used to really really mean something awful. Today, it's like sayin hey buddy, whats up bro.

What name today, in its bastardized definition could actually bring pain to someone, because "Fugly" would make me laugh, more than it would hurt, if someone was actually dumb enough to say it.

YOU may not think it means the same...but I can tell you that to some people the N word is just as bad as its always been, maybe in the younger generations it doesnt, but to someone my age and older, when its said from a white person to a black person...yes its BAD.

If someone calls me a bitch and isnt joking around about it...yes its very hurtful because I hate knowing somebody could have that impression of me...and I dont see why I should be expected to take it as just a "word" when its obvious if its said in a derogatory manner....its an accustation of ME, and tries to define me in a way that I dont like...same as comments about my appearance.

So, now there are 2 days left before the girls leave.

The 2nd cute girl who was very distant from me, especially after I hit on her, well, it turns out that night I hit on her she *did* have a fight with her BF. In fact, they had broken up that night just before I hit on her. Actually, the cute girl had only told me and The One I'm Not Interested In this news yesterday when the 3 of us were hanging out. She had not told any of her close girlfriends (all 7 of them!) this news!

Any suggestions? Although she kept distant from me a week (she was wary/disliking of me for hitting on the other cute girl who had a BF), yesterday we hung out with The One I'm Not Interested In and things were patched up and going good.

Before I had made it clear to the One I'm NOt Interested In that I don't like her, this cute girl was afraid to talk to me much because she did not want to hurt The One I'm Not Interested In (b/c they are good friends). However, I had made it clear to The One I'm NOt Interested In, and I kept saying the same thing (that I'm not interested in The One I'm Not Interested In in that way) in front of the cute girl (She knew that anyways).

So is the coast clear to express my interest in her again? Or should I just be friends for the remaining 2 days and not risk her giving ME rejection?

Yesterday when we were talking I had made light/fun of my previous attempt at hitting on her, saying that after she distanced herself from me, I did likewise. I also mentioned that when I had hit on her last week, I didn't know she had a BF at all.

Also, this cute girl keeps saying she has to go back home to Asia to see if the relationship is ended for good, because she says before this had happened and her and her BF got back together after one of them made a small ammends. So basically she said she is going to just go home and see whats up, but she did say *she* was the one who ended the relationship over the phone here in the USA, not her BF.

Thank you both of you... I think that this way of discourse is really the only way we break down barriers and get an understanding of individuals.

We aren't too far off from each other, we're much closer than what it appeared intially.

This is a good example of how people can see a word and think that it means one thing yet the other individaul is totally misundertanding where the other is coming from. What words seem hurtful or disrespectful to one is something that slides off the like water off a duck.

Thank you all for your continued consideration and respect for each other.

My advice still has not changed.

What kind of relationship are you looking for in two days? It seems to me that people spend months, even years, trying to work out the gender issues you are hoping to resolve in two days time.

Also, you seem to assume that only reasoning behind the "cute" girls not talking to you is due to being under the power of their leader. It's possible they didn't want to talk to you regardless, and you are just ignoring that aspect.

Honestly, in two days time, I don't think you are going to accomplish anything, so I would recommend moving on and seeking a realistic goal. Anything accomplished in two days is likely going to be forced and unfulfilling anyway, so you might as well move on now.

Hope this doesn't sound rude, but assuming that you won't see these girls after two days time, I would honestly say....

Give.
It.
Up.

Either that, or...

Hook.
Up.
With.
The One.

or...

Hook.
Up.
With.
The One.
And
Invite
Her
Friend
To
Watch.

I'm in the "What exactly were you hoping for in such a short period of time?" camp.

Are you seriously wanting to date one of them? If so, how exactly is that supposed to be working once they go home?

Or, were you just looking to make out and/or score with a cute Asian girl(or girls) who you'll never see again? If so, you are dicking around way too much. You need to just go for it. If they are interested, they are interested. If not, then it probably doesn't really matter what you do.

Good. God.

How the hell did you people find the time to post that much since this morning? ;)

Look, you're both wrong here. This is not about respect. It's about learning not to be an asshole. If you go around calling people fugly, or butterface, or you go around saying people SHOULD do that, then you are being an asshole.

Let's call this one like it is. Yes, people have to earn respect. But they do not have to earn a lack of disrespect. We are not suggesting that Match bow to the woman, or kneel at her feet. We are suggesting that Match stop being a jerk. And we are suggesting that Menoman stop being a jerk by cheering people who are being jerks.

If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, you shouldn't be saying it behind their back. And if your attitude is such that only attractive women are worthy of respect, then you need to grow the hell up.

People wonder why society is so disrespectful, and we have the example right here. People think it's cool to run around doing things like calling women fugly. Well you (hopefully) wouldn't call black people niggers or chinese people chinks. Those terms were designed to be offensive, and they are. There's absolutely no reason to use them, and there's absolutely no reason why you have to call a woman a butterface rather than just saying "I'm not attracted to her."

I'm about as anti-PC as they come. I think all that "womyn" and "herstory" and having to say "his or her" all over the place is absurd, and I won't do it. But being anti-PC does not give me license to be a jackass.

People earn my respect, but that doesn't mean I get to start off being an asshole to them until they win my approval.

We're back to this again?

I have a different point of view, therefore I'm a jerk and I'm an asshole.

You wouldn't survive 15 minutes where I live apparently if you get this worked up about a WORD!?

Honestly this entire thing being about a WORD, or words, just blows my mind.

it's not the different point of view. It's the fact that you think it's OK to treat people badly because of how they look. It's the fact that you think they have to reach a certain level of physical attractiveness before they have "earned" enough respect to NOT be treated badly.

Now if that ain't bein' a jerk, I don't know what is.

I understand where the people who say I should just lay the cards on the table are coming from. However, I feel that with 2 days, even if I like her enough to consider a meaningful relationship (long-distance lol), it's just way too much trouble/drama causing...

I *thought* I had cleared it with The One I'm Not Interested In that I'm not interested, but she seems to still cling to hope... it's hard because I don't want to be mean, but at the same time if I am too nice it might give her false hope.. arg its hard...

I have never said that you have to be attractive to get my respect.

If you take care of yourself, you'll get my respect though.
If you don't take care of yourself, you don't get shit from me.

That's just how I see things.

But you're consistently basing "me" being a jerk, because of how you think things should be done, when in reality, you don't know how things should be done. You have no idea. Neither do I. So truly you're just trying to blast me for how I feel about a word. Once again.... a damned word?!~!?

I have no idea why I'm argueing about a retardedly petty thing like a word.

You keep changing your story. Which is it?

the story has not changed one bit.

I said if they "Deserve" respect they get it.

Which is exactly in line with every other thing I've said so far.

Meno -- I agree with your arguments. I don't agree with everything you say, but at least you are willing to live by a realistic standard, which isn't dependant upon what other people think.

Shani -- I also see where you're coming from. You are championing a lost crusade, because you will always meet people who will not like you or respect you, and will say things which could hurt you. The upside is, these people are trash who have no reason to be in your life anyways, so why dwell on them? Let them go.

Look, it's all shades of grey. Because of my values and the way I live my life, some ugly people do not deserve my respect because of who they are and why they're ugly. People can be ugly, and I'm not talking about only theri appearance. For example, to me, it is important to be able to exercise the self control to stay in good shape. For me, seeing a grotesquely overweight 300++ pound person who has overflowing gelatinous body fat...I wonder, how could you ever let that happen to yourself? At what point in your life do you say, what the fuck am I doing, something has got to change, and do something about it? Eat less, jog a bit...do SOMETHING.

I know a kid I used to go to high school with who lives in an apartment in a shitty part of town, works in a gas station, and sucks dick for oxycotin. Now I'm a big fan of drugs, I've done weed, shrooms, MDMA, cocaine, alcohol...but always on my terms. I smoke weed all the time but MDMA and cocaine I only do about 1-2 times a year, when I know I'm going to be out partying in NYC or Boston and I know I'm going to have freaky girls down to party with me. I own the drugs. I do them only when I know I'm going for an all out crazy time, which is rare, but I treat myself to it. They will NEVER own me. And if a day comes when I have to question that, I will quit. That's my personal will power. And then you have kids like my friend from high school who are junkies, who are slaves to drugs. They have no will power, they are weak, ugly people. I don't respect them.

Would I pity them? Would I try to help them if they asked me to? Yes. There are so many different shades of grey, and different situations which can occur where you have a mix of feelings for somebody but will still do something to help them if they're in need.

Call me mean. Call me realistic. I'm not on this planet to make sure everybody else is happy--all I can do is honor who I am, and do my best to treat people right. People are so varied, and so fucked up, that you can never please everybody. If you're living right, you won't have to worry about preaching to people who they should or shouldn't respect people, or say fugly or butterface. People will see how you live, and how you are content, and they will want that, and that's the only way you can make somebody change their ways. Not by arguing with them, or telling them--that automatically puts up a defensive barrier and you won't get through.

Practice what you preach. People will see your better quality of life and decide for themselves if they want to make a change. That's all there is to it, and there is nothing more you can do.

And for the record, I agree with Match / Meno on most of these issues. If you want to call an ugly girl a butterface or fugly on an internet forum, go right ahead. If you can't be brutally honest here, where can you? So many people pass through our fleeting lives, there's no time to waste bullshitting ourselves about what we do and don't want. Know what you want and get it, don't settle for less. Even if that's some fugly girl with a puppy dog crush on you--that's not your problem. Live your life to find your own happiness--you can have compassion for people and respect their right to try to do the same thing, but you don't owe anyone any sort of basic obligation other than to not interfere with their ability to live their own lives how they see fit. I think match handled the situation as well as he could, and I'm proud of ya buddy.

LOL yeah really, first it was hos now it's fugly :lol: Seriously get a life people.

Or perhaps if you do not intend to offend it would be best not to use offensive language?

I've encountered this basic argument elswhere on this board, the basic idea being that certain langugage has been overused to the point that it ha's lost its power to shock or offend.

This is an overgeneralization. I have no doubt that if you say this is so in your social circle, that it is true. This may not be true when you are interacting with people outside of your social circle.

In my social circle, we don't use namecalling or foul language because it's considered to be impolite. For some of us, namecalling hasn't reached the point where it is so overused that it has lost meaning and power. Some of us are still offended by such language.

It's easy to use offensive language, language meant to degrade, and then call the person who has been offended oversensitive. We cannot change that people do still take offense at language. It should come as no surprise that language whose funtion is to be insulting--like fugly--often causes offense.

When interacting with people on a general usage message board, a higher level of diction is often better suited to getting across a message effectively.

It's often easier to tell somebody they shouldn't be thin skinned than it is to look at one's own behavior critically.

The only solid argument you can really make Gilda, if you want to 'think critically' about this situation in an objective way which can apply to anybody using demeaning words which offend somebody else (without getting into their personal upbringings and beliefs), is that the person using the words should realize that it offends people on this board and should refrain from using it. If you know it's going to rub somebody the wrong way, why say it and be an asshole? That's a flawed argument though, based on the circumstances.

If someone is offended by something you say, then you shouldn't say it. That's how it works in the real world, typically. But what if you mean what you say? What if it's what you really think? As much as I think there is an awesome close knit community of friendly people here @ TFP, we don't all need to agree with each other all the time. If we did, we'd get bored fast. The whole point of this place is to say what you REALLY mean and to just put it out there---this whole social project is to see what happens when people just totally drop that wall of 'what is appropriate' and just say WHATEVER the hell they think. When people start getting REAL! (Sorry that's almost quoting the real world intro there) So if you want to say, using the term fugly or butterface is offensive and you're an asshole and I'm offended so don't say it on here out of respect for me, then I say, welcome to the classroom. I do respect you, that's why I'm not going to walk around your eggshells and bullshit you. You may not like the lesson but you're going to learn something about the person posting, and possibly about yourself too.

Considering the nature of this thread and how there were no outright flames or personal attacks, I have to give a nod to the TFP for giving such a good discussion of an interesting topic like this.

Good stuff folks.

If I had actually made such an argument, you might have a point. I didn't, however, so you are arguing against a straw man.

Thoughts can be expressed thoughtfully and politely, or crudely and offensively. The former is usually more effective, especially in a context where the latter is likely to cause offense.

You can say what you really think while being polite. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Once again you bring out your straw man. Makes an easy target, doesn't it?

If I'd meant that, I would have said that. I didn't. Reread what I said, and you'll see that my point is quite different from how you are characterizing it.

I'm not sure what lesson I'm supposed to learn from name calling that can't be just as well communicated using polite language.

I don't believe I've asked anyone to walk on eggshells around me.

The name is Jack. Thread Jack. Just here to ask "What is everyone arguing about, exactly?" After you get past the semantics of respect vs. courtesy, then it seems that you're down to an issue of some people enjoying crude, foul-mouthed, possibly pejorative phrases to describe others, and some people not. Yep - that's American culture alright. I just don't think any consensus is going to be reached on the appropriate way to converse with relate to your fellow human beings, on this type of point. It seems that it's a subset of cultural communication, similar in some ways to some people liking hard-core rap or punk, and some people liking classical or opera.

match: good decision. go out and find practice targets with a longer shelf life. sounds like this episode of potential toungue wrasslin' is over.

Did you even really argue anything? That argument is the only one deserving consideration which I could think of, that didn't base it's reasoning on anything about either of the two people holding the argument. E.G. their own personal beliefs and lifestyle. Would you mind telling me exactly what your argument is? Because I guess I'm unclear about it.

Does this include you? Is "some of us" supposed to be rhetorical? Either way, then you're saying that this sort of language shouldn't be used because it will offend some people. Which is exactly the argument I was citing in my previous post. Or perhaps you're merely saying that you will get a better answer to your questions if you make them as unoffending and politically correct to as many people as possible, because people will then focus more on your content, and not your vulgar verbiage? If I'm totally taking shots in the dark here feel free to englighten me with exactly what you're arguing.

You know what though? You are being over sensative--it's the truth. Because when you give a stranger the power to upset you with their opinion of you, then you've give up some of your self identity. If you don't have some core opinion of yourself which you won't take a chip at unless someone really close and important to you tells you you need to take a hard look, you're in for a world of hurt. Which a lot of people are currently in. You've got to have some kind of base belief in yourself to act as a shield against all the untrue, convoluted bullshit which people are going to throw at you throughout your life. Reality is different from person to person--to one girl I may be fugly, to the next, I may be Brad Pitt. It doesn't matter, it's all objective.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. When I talk about welcome to the class room this is a learning experience--well it is. It's learning how to let things which you shouldn't let bother you slide off your back. The only way you're going to make people see things the way you do is by living happily, practicing what you preach, and letting people see your ideology works. Until then, there will ALWAYS be an inexhaustable amount of people who will find ways to offend you and get under your skin. When you step back and realize how insignificant they all are in the big picture, it's like whatever man, do your thing, I'm happy over here.



You do owe somebody politeness when you are addressing them, or one of their issues or topics. It's their own issues they've opened up, so you've got to respect them for that and not use insulting language. When you're addressing your own stuff, as match did, in a, for the most part, very unvulgar way, you can speak freely as you please. Not to mention this guy is inexperienced as hell. Some people got offended and defensive when they could have been a bit more understanding to his naievity. Like I said, lessons learned.

So, please explain to me what position you're defending then.

You're supposed to learn about how people really think when they can say whatever they want. Whether you like what you see or not is really objective--my interest, and fascination with this place is peoples' ability to do so. And for the freedom for myself to do so. Some people will present themselves differently than others--some politely and intellectually, some a bit more vulgar and rough around the edges. Like a college student engineer who has no experience with girls. Isn't it fascinating to see how this guy, who has no real solid history of interracting with girls, has learned the terms and values that he knows and has used here from his male friends? That he has never kissed a girl but he knows about terms like cock blocking, butterface, brown bagger, etc? I can only imagine how long he has wanted to get a romantic spark going so he can jump into this whole sex and relationships thing--and he's tryin, good for him! I'm objective and unjudgemental about all of this--you're judging through your tinted window of your own values. If you let people just be themselves and say what they want to say, you can learn a lot about what people are really like, and cut through the bullshit of saying things politely, and down to exactly how we mean them when we have a thought in our heads. Not everyone is a pleasant polite person--you've got to take the good with the bad.

I don't know, maybe I'm the only one who finds value in that. If so, that's okay--I'm still gonna be here, more entertained and enlightened by the minute as usual.

woah. what a thread.

interesting how it progressed ....

and I think that all bits of it are worthy of discussion.

(even though I can't get my head around it right now well enough to join in...)
........

however, I was thinking about this thread earlier today, and I do wonder,

if the genders involved were reversed, would things be different, and how?

(could be worthy of a separate thread in Coming Together .. if anyone wants to run with it, please do :) )

Not feeling like starting the thread, but I'd say probably so..statistically speaking, due to the gender-related expectations of having the guy hit on the girl. I would guess something like : Dominant "less attractive but certainly not fugly" guy hits on newcomer girl. Girl doesn't go for it. Guy gets embarrassed. Other guys don't do shit, because they're in relationships and are faithful so the groups stop hanging out. Or other guys ravenously try to get into girl's pants, because they're in relationships but are unfaithful. Dominant guy keeps hitting on girl until the second he leaves the country, or else finds a more suspectable girl to hit on. He is more than likely outgoing and funny, or else his ugly ass wouldn't be the alpha of the group.

ehm, I guess what I meant was more about this semantics thing that we have going on here.

female poster starts thread about some fugly guy, etc etc ... what happens?

although I suppose both thread topics (that of the OP, and the tangental fugly/etc stuff) ... would be interesting when looked at from a different angle.

oh yeah, screw the OP. I think I called for that in my first post. :) Well, in that case - I umm...don't know. Ask Cynthetic or Shakran - I personally love the use of terms like fugly and so I wouldn't have a problem with the subjective description, etc. Hate to say it, but I'm not sure the reaction on the board is purely genderific, but I think that rook status might be a factor too. I can think of some pretty, ummm....candid members of ye olde TFP, and they'd usually get a laugh for such description.

I thought it was pretty clear:

if you do not intend to offend it would be best not to use offensive language

Nope, I said no such thing. Try reading that again. I said:

I have no doubt that if you say this is so in your social circle, that it is true. This may not be true when you are interacting with people outside of your social circle.

In my social circle, we don't use namecalling or foul language because it's considered to be impolite. For some of us, namecalling hasn't reached the point where it is so overused that it has lost meaning and power. Some of us are still offended by such language.

My social circle outside of my immediate family and work place, by the way, includes several college students, all guys, all computer science, physical science, or engineering majors. Nerds with little experience with girls. I know nothing of how they speak when I'm not around, and I don't care. When I am around, they speak politely, and don't use derogatory language, at least not more than once.

I didn't say anything about being PC, just that if you use language intended to be insulting, people will be insulted. Otherwise, you've basically got it right.

Whether I'm being oversensitive is a matter of opinion, not objective truth.

You're reading WAY too much into what I've said.

I disagree. You owe somebody courtesy whenever you interact with them.

When interacting with people on a general usage message board, a higher level of diction is often better suited to getting across a message effectively.

I made exactly two responses to the OP.

In the first, I complimented him on how he handled the situation with the girl and offered some advice on how to score a kiss, girlfriend, and sex.

In the second, I expressed agreement with him that hanging out with a group of girls can be mentally tiring, while disregarding the "butterface" comment.

I fail to see any harsh judgements there.

I disagree that speaking politely is bullshit. I sincerely believe that doing so in a context where people are likely to take offense at crude and insulting language--like this message board--both shows respect and, as a result, is more likely to effectively communicate ones message. If you don't offend your audience, they are more likely to be receptive to your message.

I didn't say speaking politely was bulllshit, but I think putting euphemistically or politely when what you REALLY think is harsher, is doing a disservice to oneself.

In this case:

The Woman Who I am Not Interested In

This fugly chick who is coming down on me like the bubonic plague when i have zero interest in her.


I don't know, the second one is I would enjoy meeting more because it's more of a candid thought. I respect where you're coming from though--we're both in different places, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm not going to convince you I'm right or vice versa.

::waving white flag smiley::

I was just thinking about the very same questoin while reading through this thread. From what I've seen many times with my friends, both male and female, (although it's in raw, real life, not beyond the comfortable quasi-anonymous shelter of the internet)

"I'm not interested because I do not find her physically attractive. I've made it clear I'm not interested. I'm hanging out with them by proxy because I am interested in their friend(s) who I do find attractive."

Responses based on the sex of the person making the statement:
(M) "YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE" (insert majority of thread here)
(F) "YOU POOR THING" "I hate it when ugly guys like me and won't get the point that I'm not interested. That sucks that he's friends with the guy you're interested in, because the guy you like is really cute."

No, not everyone is like that, but most people are. It's not just my friends who think this way or do this, I think everyone does *to an extent*. I think everyone thinks this way to some degree. I'd be willing to bet that there isn't a single person here who has never in their lives judged someone based on their appearance. What's the difference between thinking and saying? What's worse? To think it and say it, or to think it and condemn those who say it?

FUGLY is a word. Whether or not you like that word is up to you. Is it any better to use a more politically correct, sugarcoated word instead? I don't think so. The word may change, but the thought behind the word is still the same. I may not have ever used that word in mixed company, but I've had those type of thoughts before, and I'm pretty damn sure that at some point in their life, everyone else has as well.

maybe you are misunderstanding the importance of words. it's kind of obvious the import that they have...

Yes, it is. It seems that in this day and age, just about anything that can be said could and probably is offensive or hurtful to somebody. Hell, I'm doing it right now, and I haven't even used any kind of derogatory or degrading language. You put "jesus christ" in a vain context (and didn't capitalize it). That is more than likely to offend somebody.

On the issue of calling somebody "fugly," can't you like somebody who is ass ugly? I know people of both sexes who are sort of eye sores, but are really cool people. Looks are just extra.

Yes, sure, I can like them as a friend of course. They would make great friends, like anyone else. But to be romantically involved with them, I have to be physically attracted on some level; who are we kidding, we all are physically attracted at some level unless there is some forced date-for-money or date-for-class thing going on.

As an update, apparently The One I'm Not Interested In never got over me, even though I made it clear repeatedly we were just good friends. She was pissed off at the club when I showed care and took care of the cute girl I liked because she was puking; The One I'm Not Interested shot off into the dance floor and freaked with any random guy to "get back at me." Funny thing is, I didn't know and neither would I have cared, not to sound mean.

In any case they all left by now and things are over. Whew! I have to admit, I was sad to see new-found friends go, but then again I signed up for it knowingly. Besides, who am I kidding, I am mostly sad because the two cute girls I liked had left.

I never had a chance with the two cute ones beyond friendship anyways, by the way. They were both taken eh. Even the 2nd one that broke up with her BF had told me she was keeping it secret because she hoped they would get back together when she got back. Hehehe. As a final twist, you could say *I* got played by *The One I'm Not Interested In*.
HAHAHAHAAH O_o

!!!!!!!!! Bingo !!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is absolutely no reason for this thread to be revived.....most certainly not for the reason it was