Sleepyjack

OK, just posted this in my journal, but realised it was a little stupid cause i wanted to discuss it

continuing..

So i was doing some of my standard chivalrous acts around work etc today, holding doors open, helping people with some boxes and somehow, after i helped this girl out i had this on my mind for the rest of the day.

Basically, it seems, guys or knights back in the 1200's (or whenever knights etc were about?) or basically hundred of years ago would do all this nice acts, mainly for women. By the fairy-tales as well, the knights were always nice guys and went and saved the beautiful princess from the dragon. Although i always thought it was a bit of a shame that the princess was simply beautfiul without much personailty or anything. Plus she had to marry the knight by default? probably written by a guy though ...Don't wanna tangent to far though...

Also, i recalled during the titanic and other sorta disater movies or events and theres always a cry for "Women and children first" (also a lyric in Radiohead's Idioteque song, about war and profiting off of it). So basically, everyone, in the old days were looking out for women and to save them. Which is great
Although was this only a child-bearing survival of the species thing?
Cause i was then wondering why then, women used to get screwed with all equal oppurtunity stuff, in jobs and everything. Like they didn't get as much as guys for the same job, couldn't vote or get high position jobs etc Seems weird that they would get such nice treatment just around the house and stuff, but when it comes to anything else they get treated unequally and rather horribly?
Seems odd, that only until recently, after years of nice social treatment (well just the chivalry dealy), they're starting to get on equal terms with guys in other facets of life,

It's just that females are so amazing i was wondering about this injustice and phoney treatment

skysooner

Men were generally chivalrous as they were seen as women's protectors. This wasn't a feeling of equality. Women were perceived as being the "weaker" sex (both mentally and physically). Men were "superior" (or thought they were) and that meant that being protectors they took care of women. This also led to a certain callousness towards someone who was perceived as being lower than they were. Societal norms were for the woman to stay home and raise children. It wasn't until the 1940s when women started entering the work force in larger numbers due to the need for labor during World War II (when many of the employable men were drafted) that things started to move. It took years of hard work and litigation before the chance for women to finally move upward in an easier fashion started to happen. Many women will still tell you that the struggle continues.

As a side note, since this is in Tilted Sexuality, women's sexuality was also not really considered until the last 4 decades or so. Sex was something to be submitted to by the woman rather than a genuine sharing between 2 people. Some of the changes I mentioned above also coincided with women taking control of their own sexual needs.

vveronica

How true but one point is left out.. We are still looked at around most of the world as property or worse. I have been very successful for my age and there is not a second everyday that i am not thankful for being born and raised in the USA... A place that does treat women as close to equal as you will find anywhere in the world..

Sure I cant lift as much, I cant hit as hard, and I cant reach the stuff on the top two shelves without a step ladder; But, I'm a better shot with a pistol, I better with a budget and without me All you guys would have to enjoy yourselves is your hand.

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motdakasha

We still face glass ceiling and salary discrepancy issues to say the least. We're not equal yet.

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wannabenakid247

Totally agree but and the rest as well. even men who claim to be unsexist still make derogitory remarks. eg she's a slut. Men don't get that kind of comment if they sleep with several partners. That pisses me off as well

Iliftrocks

Men call each other sluts all the time. At least they do round here

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Slims

Knights were only bound to be chivalrous to noble women.

They could rape any other women as they saw fit.

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Prince

Yeah... I've read a few books (not enough to make me all-knowing on the subject) and it seems to me that chivalry is more a fairy tale concept than anything else.

Certainly there was chivalry among the nobles, more than the common folk, but I do believe this had more to do with the men themselves than women. It would seem to me that a man would make himself look better in the eyes of others by saying things like "women and children first". I don't deny that some of it has to do with the protective instinct, but I honestly don't see how chivalry would be based merely on that.

As for knights, they weren't gentlemen. They could have almost any woman they wanted whenever they wanted, and more often than not, they did.

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Nazggul

Wanab, I definitely have more than a few friends that play the numbers game with women. They have no respect for the women they are with and they don't seem to give it a second thought. Personally I don't get it. If I ever called them a slut (and I probably have) they would just laugh it off because currently that activity from the point of view of a male is generally encouraged socially and perceived to be normal or even expected.

Sad to say, I think there are a lot of women out there who still find that Alpha Male attitude attractive (or mistake it as confidence or bravado), so don't expect it to change in our lifetime.

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skysooner

I agree with what is written above. In the vast majority of countries, women's equality ranges from almost equals to property. There are definitely still issues regarding salary and the number of women executives. I don't happen to work with many women in my profession (petroleum engineering). Part of this is the lack of female engineers and the good old boy feeling of the industry. The women that I have known in this business have definitely been among the best that I have worked with.

My wife tells me that her mother never saw her husbands erect penis in over 20 years of marriage. Sex was something that was done quickly and in total darkness. She told my wife that it was "something that she had to endure". It took me a long tim to get my wife over this kind of attitude. This is just an example of the kind of brainwashing that occurred for years and perpetuated some of the "women as lessers" viewpoints.

Prince

Hmm...an interesting point you brought up. Mind if I start a thread on this, I'd like to discuss this further but don't want to jack this thread.

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jbrooks544

I think you are mixing fairy tales with reality. In the 12th century, in Europe most people were starving peasants. Chivolry was not part of everyday life. What you are referring to was nobel court rituals, which was for about 1 millionth of one percent of the population. Most of what people know about the olden days is just fairy tale myths.

Modern geniality toward women and what came to be known as modern chivolry and also things like "women and children first" was/is mostly just for show in public and not reflective of actual status, rank or priviledge in society. Maybe this public show is from the Victorian era.

You have a lot of questions and are mixing a lot of things up. The study of history dictates that you first understand the period you are studying and discipline yourself to not try to measure or judge an era by todays measures or standards. For example, today slavery is abhorent but a couple hundred years ago it was normal and fairly OK.

Women couldn't get jobs or vote because it had just never happened. No one would have considered such a thing. The very notion of voting is historically new anyway. Until the advent of modern kitchen and household appliances the women were in charge of the household and it was at LEAST a full time job. We can't judge this, it was just fact. If the family wanted food, clean clothes and all the other daily needs then the woman would have to work full time in the house. This was true until quite recently. No one even considered women being involved in matters outside the home, not even the women. You are asking many good questions. There are no simple answers. It sounds like you should study history, etc. and that you would be interested in it. Also sociology, and economics would probably interest you.

Sleepyjack

Quite enlightening all. Thanks.
Also it is a bit embarrasing posting questions like this, when i don't really know much about history, politics and some of the other social studies topics. I kinda wrote them off when at school and just stuck to maths, science and sport....

motdakasha

It's so disgusting and sad that the notion is so prevalent in history and today that it even has a term, Madonna/Whore Complex (or Dichtomy). It is believed this notion that a woman is either a pure virgin or dirty whore comes from the Middle Ages.

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=^-^= motdakasha =^-^=
Just Google It.
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(I'm not going psychoanalyze you nor will I let you cry on my shoulder. Have a nice day.)

jbrooks544

I thought that "madonna/Whore" was a modern psychoanalytic construct, possibly created or popularized by Freud. Madonna/whore complex was a shortcut to referring to a problem that some men had in their views of women. It was not a way of analyzing women. It was defiining a problem with some men.

uv7piy

There are a lot of complex issues throughout this thread, but I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the "glass ceiling" concept. While I don't believe the world is perfectly fair, I think there are a lot of explainations for salary discrepancies in the aggregate. One contributor is the fact that many women are not willing to forgo a balanced lifestyle in order to achieve the one dimensional success in salary/corporate position. Most women I've worked with have been equally competent as their male counterparts and equally paid/promoted until they get to the point in their lives when they find that they want more from life. From that point forward, they have tended to have better balanced lives with less one dimensional success. Off-topic, sorry

SparklingDot

I believe the "Madonna / whore" theory was popularized by Freud. At any rate, it was a reflection not only of the insecurities of men, double standards (as far as number of partners, gender, and social labeling), but also the roles that women were allowed to play. A woman could either marry, or not and support herself in one of the few ways she could. Women who were "marriage material" were virtuous, chaste, and Madonna like. Women that had "fallen" were branded for life and had few options.

Yes, the whole false chivalry thing pisses me off too. Women are supposed to be equal, but there are so many people left to perpetuate the 50's mentality (in short, mothers first, humans never) that there will not be any true equality that women do not have to fight for until my children have children. As of now, society has progressed wonderfully, but not quite enough. Women still have to work harder for less or even for equal consideration, and are still expected to put in a double day (work all day, work for the family at night).

So please, treat women as equals. And if you open the door for me, don't be surprised if I open the next one for you.

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nanofever

And somebody beat me to it...

I wanted to be the one to destroy his vision of chivalrous knights.

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charlesesl

Humans are nothing more than a slightly more evolved form of mammals. So out society is nothing more than and extansion of the animal pact society (sorry i lack better words for describing it)
From an survival presbective. The survival of a specie depend on its off springs to a certain extend. For mammals. The time that is needed to bring infents into fully functional aduals is much longer than that off any other any animal. Therefore, our genes code the femal counter part of most memals to take care of the children. Which explains why woman are discouraged from a life outside the housewife.

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blade02

I also believe that a good deal of the gender roles and values come from nature. The easiest example is the male getting praised for lots of partners while the girls are shamed for it. In nature males have the job as creating as many off spring as they can. Off spring that are like them. In nature males always think they are better than the other males until they lose to them in some sort of competition. As advanced as we are....I think a lot of this remains in us. In our minds, its kind of natural for males to think that "women shouldnt have any babies except for mine". Not that we actively think it, just that the idea of a girl you're interested in being involved with another man almost always gets under your skin some how. Especially when that person is very different from you. I believe thats where a lot of the double standards for sex come from.