06-22-2006, 09:21 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
Comedian
Location: Use the search button
|
Tilted Sexuality meets Tilted Philosophy
Well, I stumbled across this quote from ancient Zen teachings, and I thought "Boy, this could certainly go on the TFP. How many times have we told people that open communication is the foundation of a relationship?"
It seems that the same problem has been plaguing the human race for millenia... Quote:
__________________
3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis. |
|
06-22-2006, 09:51 AM | #2 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
|
You really didn't need this thread for me to be proud of you.
I like that parable, though. That's love in a nutshell: the dilemma, the delicious tension between what we already know and our safety and how we're thought of, and of setting aside everything else for our heart's desire. |
06-22-2006, 10:14 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It!
Location: Southern England
|
Nice story. I approve.
__________________
╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝ |
06-22-2006, 10:26 AM | #4 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
|
Quote:
That said, when I first read the parable, I was thinking, "What if she doesn't love any of them back?" What if she's a drama queen who just wants to see if some guy has the balls to own up to his love, but then doesn't reciprocate once the drama is over? (You can see how much I trust women... good thing I like guys, eh?) I think the nun should have put herself out there a bit first, before asking someone to put himself on the line...
__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
|
06-22-2006, 11:31 AM | #5 (permalink) | |
Comedian
Location: Use the search button
|
Quote:
I think your question about how to know when love is safe enough to be trusted shows pretty deep into your soul, Abaya. I have asked the same questions, and the answer has not always been the one I have been hoping for. Isn't the act of professing love one of the truly powerful moments in a person's life? Why would someone hide it? If lucky enough, that love can be professed again and again, ad infinitum. I told a girl I loved her, and it felt great. I told her without caring what the response was. I didn't care if I was killed for saying it, because my life was complete... right at that moment.
__________________
3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis. |
|
06-22-2006, 01:21 PM | #6 (permalink) |
My own person -- his by choice
Location: Lebell's arms
|
I think the point is that true love is never embarassed or ashamed. It doesn't hide; but professes itself from the "mountain top."
__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection. |
06-22-2006, 02:59 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
|
Quote:
I was tossing out a few different questions there, mostly because I have been on both sides: throwing myself completely into love, trusting it completely no matter what happened; and being cautious as hell, not wanting to make a move until the other person does so. I used to be idealistic, then I got very bitter and cynical, and now I think I'm just doing okay. Hence ktspktsp's and my relationship, going longer and stronger than anything we've known before. Alright. So, I do think that one should give 100% to the relationship. (I have been trying to listen to ratbastid.) But I also think one has to be healthy about how this is done... and sometimes, it's just not healthy to do crazy-ass shit for love, over and over and over again, to the point of mania. We see it here on TFP all the time... people stuck in unhealthy patterns because they *think* they're doing the right thing, giving it all... and getting absolutely zilch in return. They're basically abusing themselves. Many of them have lost their own selves in the process. There has to be a balance. Maybe I'm totally off-topic from the OP. But I guess, to me, why the hell didn't the nun herself announce her love for the man? Why couldn't she put herself on the line for the sake of love? Sure, maybe she was "teaching him a lesson," but that's not what you do when you love someone. You don't "test" them or "teach" them. Love itself is the teacher, not the other person. That nun was playing a game, if you ask me. Or, conversely, why couldn't the guy just stand up and announce his love, all by himself, without the woman demanding it from him? If he TRULY loved her, he wouldn't need her to ask him for proof... and she wouldn't demand it. He would have just done it, without thinking... as you said about your own declarations, Ben. I think he was, in fact, hiding his feelings... which, as you say, is not love. Meh, just my usual rambling... maybe I'm really just a cynic. But there's just something not right in that story. Perhaps if it was the master who knew about the love letter, and called on the writer to declare himself... that would work better for me. But to have the woman herself demand proof... nah. EDIT: Forgive my over-analysis of this simple story. But you did put "Tilted Philosophy" up there, which calls for over-analysis hehe.
__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran Last edited by abaya; 06-22-2006 at 03:03 PM.. |
|
06-22-2006, 05:34 PM | #8 (permalink) |
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
|
All nonsense aside, the idea of letting others know your feelings is good for relationships of all kinds. People sometimes forget how much those things (both good and bad) affect other people. Of course, it works the other way too - sometimes people think they affect people more than they do.
__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) |
06-22-2006, 07:00 PM | #9 (permalink) | |
Please touch this.
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
|
Quote:
__________________
You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] |
|
06-22-2006, 07:45 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
Location: Iceland
|
Quote:
But really, that kinda goes against the whole idea of the thing, right? The nun is "teaching" a lesson to the monk for not having the balls to be bold about his love... so his love is imperfect somehow, because he can't declare it without fear. So, from the lesson of this parable, we should all be going around declaring our love, without fear of the other person not talking to us again. But we all know that almost no one does that (more than once). So I'd have to say that this parable is pretty damn romantic and not realistic, in that sense. But, eh, who's keeping track. It sounds nice.
__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
|
06-22-2006, 07:46 PM | #11 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Moderator Emeritus
Location: Chicago
|
Quote:
__________________
Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.
|
|
06-22-2006, 08:20 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
|
Quote:
"The dilemma, the delicious tension between", I'm cool with it up to that point. But it requires the contrast of two points there, and I'm not quite seeing whether there are two separate comparisons or one big one. To wit, does this mean that there is tension between A: what we know and B: our safety and additionally between C: how we're thought of and D: setting aside everything else for our heart's desire. Or is it one big comparison between A: what we already know and our safety and how we're thought of and B: setting aside everything else for our heart's desire. Or is it one big comparison between A: what we already know and our safety and B:how we're thought of, and of setting aside everything else for our heart's desire. --------- Since I can't untangle that, I'll just respond to the parable. There are several possible lessons here. 1. Several monks privately loved her, but only one actually said so. Because he took the risk, he's the only one in line for the reward, her love in return. 2. There is a contrast between how the monk expressed his love and how the nun responded. He tried to hide it from the others, while she wanted open expression right up front. He was brave enough to risk rejection, but not public rejection. This really amounts the the same type of lesson, that you have to be willing to risk loss to make a gain, but on a different level. Her response can be interpreted one of two ways. A. "Embrace me now" is her way of saying she returns her love, but will only love him if their love is publicly known. Doing so in private would be to imply that there was something shameful about it. B. She might also, rather than declaring that she returns his love, be saying that a private note isn't enough. He must first make a public declaration, and then she will entertain the idea of returning it. If we look at the title, that should give us some clue as to the intended meaning. Is it about risk taking leading to a reward, or is it about the nature of what a loving relationship truly is? "If You Love, Love Openly" seems to me to imply that it's the latter. It's not really love if it must be hidden. With this, I'm going with interpretation 2A: She was prepared to return his love, but only if he were prepared to take the risk of declaring it publicly. I think it would work better as a lesson about risk taking if he had sent the love not anonymously, and she had stood and declared to the crowd as a whole, not knowing who wrote it, "If you really love me so much, come and embrace me now." However, the story makes it clear that he identified himself and she knew precisely who it was and addressed him directly in public. So, combined with the title, it seems to be more about what love is, rather than how to find love. Well, that's a complete muddled mess. I'm going to reread it tomorrow and see if I can make sense of it then. Gilda Last edited by Gilda; 06-23-2006 at 12:11 AM.. |
|
06-22-2006, 08:35 PM | #14 (permalink) |
Location: Iceland
|
Ah, glad to know I'm not the only one who was confused by the parable. Thank you, Gilda, for analyzing along with me.
I don't know if I made this clear earlier, but I agree with Mal that BigBen (and ratbastid) expressed some beautiful stuff... I just didn't quite jive with the quoted parable thingy. ...hell, it's my job to analyze texts, what did you expect?
__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran |
06-22-2006, 08:42 PM | #15 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
|
Quote:
I intended the second of those three: on one hand, there's what we know, our safety, and how we're thought of. On the other hand there's giving up all that for what we know in our heart is truly that which expresses ourselves. |
|
06-22-2006, 09:00 PM | #16 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
|
Quote:
I expect nothing in return. I have no strangeness about it, but I have witnessed some of the ladies I have said it to pause to try to assess what just happened. Most respond back affirmatively. Some silence and awkwardness. Eventually they understand.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
|
06-23-2006, 12:14 AM | #17 (permalink) | |
32 flavors and then some
Location: Out on a wire.
|
Quote:
abaya: Yeah, analyzing text is what I do for a living also. It's hard to turn it off, isn't it? Cynthetiq: I'd probably find that strange and a little off-putting. I have exactly four people I talk to regularly to whom I'll say "I love you". It comes easily to me when I love someone, but it isn't something I'll easily give away or expect outside of a very close bond. I'm not criticizing, just sharing my own reaction. Gilda Last edited by Gilda; 06-23-2006 at 12:17 AM.. |
|
06-23-2006, 02:53 AM | #18 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
|
Quote:
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
|
Tags |
meets, philosophy, sexuality, tilted |
|
|