Bill O'Rights

Ustwo made that comment in this thread. That got me to thinking. Back in my day (remember kids, I'm old), something as benign as a blowjob, was somewhat of a oddity. Oh, they were out there, don't get me wrong. But rare it was, to find one of those "special" girls that would actually do it. It carried an Ick factor. Vaginal intercourse was far more common than oral sex. To illustrate, consider that I "lost it" at the age of 16. Conversely, I didn't receive my first blowjob until I was 24 (I think?) Now, oral sex is so common that it's regarded as the next step up from a passionate kiss, and one step below intercourse.

Anal sex? Well, that was virtualy nonexistent back in my day. It carried an Ick factor. While still not as common as oral sex, it is becoming more of an accepted...practice.

Homosexuals were extremely closeted, back in my youth. It was the rare (and very brave, in my opinion) man, that came "out" to profess his love of other men. It carried an Ick factor. Now...the stigma is nowhere near what it was. Oh, there's still a stigma to it, but it's becoming much more accepted and tolerated.

Where am I going with this? I'm not even really sure myself. But the main point is that no one openly condones, nor accepts, such practices as pedophilia, necrophilia, or beastiality. Now, I don't think (at least I hope) that pedophilia will ever be condoned. But, will such practices as necrophilia or beastiality? Will they ever be looked upon as accepted alternative lifestyles? Before you answer that, think that back 50, 40 or even 30 years ago, the very idea of two people of the same sex marrying was unimmaginable. Now...for a very large segment of our society, it's looked upon as a non-issue. It seems, that our societal "Ick Factor" rides along a sliding scale. Does the Ick Factor have a built in stopping mechanism? Are there some practices, that are so abhorent, that the Ick Factor cannot breach the barrior?

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

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Willravel

I think consent is a large factor as to why those three things haven't been accepted yet. A mystery fourth option to your list could be rape. A child or animal doesn't have the cognitive ability to consent. A dead person obviously an't consent. If our grouping is of taboo sexual activity that doesn't require consent, then rape has to be in there as the most common practiced. Honestly, I'll never accept pedophilia, necrophilia, zoophilia, or rape. Without consent, it is wrong.

Maybe some people can get past this ick factor, but I can't.

I'm all for bjs.

maleficent

I've joked about this because it annoys my sister... but there are a few fairy tales that have necropheliac undertones...

Snow White - She's basically dead - prince kisses her...
Sleeping Beauty - She's in a coma - prince kisses her... (if you read anne rice's version - he did a lot more too)

Are cartoon princes kinkier than most?

I wouldn't condone necrophelia because there's no consent.. and quite honestly i don't get it - I don't undersstand what the turn on is of having the other person be completely passive - interactivity is fun...

different strokes...

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Bill O'Rights

No...you're just carrying on the other discussion. Consent aside. Put that away, for a moment. I want to discuss this so-called "Ick Factor". What are the dynamics behind it?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

maleficent

a lot of the ick factor can possibly come from things that are just not understood...

back in the day when blow jobs were a rarity - i'm sure the reaction would be - you want me to put WHAT in my mouth? DO you know where that's been?

Then you figure out the pleasure involved and the ickiness goes away...

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Bill O'Rights

Was Prince Eric, in The Little Mermaid, into beastiality? Don't forget, at the end he knew that she was a fish.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Bill O'Rights

Exactly correct. That was the prevailing reaction. Back then, a guy had a better chance of getting a girl to drop her panties, than he he did getting her to drop her gum.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Charlatan

The "ick" factor, in these cases has more to do with the popularizing or the mainstreaming of these acts. 30, 40, 50 and many more years ago, gays were still having sex. It just wasn't talked about in "polite" society and certainly not in the media (such as it was in those days).

I feel that things like anal sex, blow jobs and other more kinky sexual pursuits are a direct result of easier access to porn. Throughout the 70s, as the laws softened in the US, porn became much easier to consume. As a result, men were seeing images of blow jobs in films like Deep Throat and the like. As the 80s rolled around, so did the use of the VCR and the 90s brought the greatest access to porn, the Internet.

With the advent of the Internet as a form of distribution people, like never before, have gained access to porn. This access has introduced them to greater and wilder sexual practices. It has, if not normalized, at least increased the understanding of these acts.

Will this greater access break through the "ick factor" for things like pedophilia, necrophilia and beastiality? To some extent yes. There were always people out there who were into these things. The Internet gives fuel to their fantasies and let's them "meet" others who share their interests.

Will these things end up being mainstreamed as a result? I don't think so. Most of these are *very* icky, to continue to use the euphemism. Unless there is a greater shift in morality in general and taste in specific, I don't see it happening. Previous shifts, have happened mostly, as others have pointed out, due to the activities occuring between consenting adults. Pedophilia, necrophilia and beastiality are not between consenting adults.

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maleficent

Who knows what the next generation will find less icky...

in my mother's day - -premarital sex was an ick.. sex for pleasure was an ick.. heck the fact that i am the age i am, unmarried, and not a virgin would make me a major ICK ICK ICK...

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Willravel

I was explaining what my ick factor was. My ick factor either involves feces or not consenting. Therefore no necro, pedo, beast, rape, or anal. They all make me sick. It's not a matter of mainstream or not. I do plenty of stuff that's not mainstream. When will bloodplay be mainstream? Does that have an ick factor for people? In the case of bloodplay, there isn't the problem of no consent (unless you're a vampire).

ratbastid

I have a friend who theorizes that internet porn is dangerous for exactly this reason. In her words, "If you're into, say, midgets and grannies, and you find a dozen websites out there for people who are also into midgets and grannies... Well, then you think you're normal!"

Grasshopper Green

I honestly can't say if beastiality, necrophilia, and other such acts will become "normal" in the future...there are still areas that think premarital sex is icky, and don't even talk about homosexuality. (I grew up in an area like that)

And on a more serious note, this is really skewing my view on Disney movies as wholesome family entertainment.

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Bill O'Rights

But...in those particular circles...they are normal...right? No Ick Factor.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Bill O'Rights

Well...then, we won't even get into Lilo & Stitch.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Charlatan

My grannie says I'm normal...


Where this is dangerous is in the world of pedophillia... there has been a rise in those acting out what would have just remained fantasies because they have been emboldend through interaction with other pedophiles online.

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- Old Man Luedecke

NoSoup

I guess my question, Bill - do you think it is more of everyone adapting to society's current view or is it a generational thing?

You probably have a bit more experience in this area, as all I can state definitively is that as a whole, my generation seems to be pretty open with most of those "Ick" factors that you had spoken about.

However, does your (or previous) generation seem to have accepted them as well, or is it just that more of the younger generations views/practices are showing up in the media, on the internet, ect...

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Just in case you were wondering...

Daniel_

So in your hypothetical website, is that a guy who likes midgets, and also likes grannies; or does he like midgets WITH grannies?

Because there's a world of difference....

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Powderedmaggot

"The trouble with normal is it always get's worse." - Bruce Cockburn

Maybe someday in the future you could go to the sex pet store to get yourself a dog bred especially for sex.

kramus

There are long-term swings in what is societally accepted - the ick changes over centuries well beyond what we often realize. In the days of Alexander and on through the days of Rome homosexuality was not really thought of as such. Instead, people had sex with people. A king had his men and his women, free or other wise. There was the famous Lovers Brigade of Athens, which required all members of this elite military outfit to be part of a pair bonding with another member. The theory was that the fellows would be braver in battle in front of their sweetie. In practice they were wiped out because they refused to retreat and the Spartans cleaned house.
It was common also for an older guy to take a youth under his wing so to speak, and initiate him in "love". Which in this day reads as homosexual pedophilia and is rather frowned upon.
What I am saying is what others have said. The ick factor is there, but what bothers people changes over time. Engineered animals and people for sex? What do you call "chicks with dicks", or trans-gendered post-op people? Folks who have been altered in some ways for sexual purposes. I bet it will get really really weird as time goes on. What will be the practices of communities in space habitats a thousand years from now? I bet we would shudder at some of the commonplaces, and just plain not understand some of the stuff that goes on. This vanilla fellow could some day be found a kink just because of my tendancy towards monogamy, and my strict adherence to heterosexual partners who are pretty much of an age with me.

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ngdawg

Years ago, mid-70's I believe there was this movie called Buster and Billie. Joan Goodfellow played Billie, a high school girl from the bad side of town who put out. Buster, played by Jan-Michael Vincent played Buster, who falls in love with her.
To make a longer story short, she changes her ways, but the boys would have none of that and chase her down one night, gangrape her and beat her to death with a rock. As she lay dying she is still being raped. I remember this movie because of THAT ick factor. Rape mixed with necrophilia.
For true ICK factor, I don't think scat will be universally normal, but I do think with the pervasiveness of kink, it will be taken with an 'eh' soon enough if not already.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Suave

I don't find a huge ick factor with beastiality, just more of a philosophical issue. The person can't communicate with the animal properly (sorry, horse whispering doesn't count you wannabe Redfords), so there is no way to know whether a rape is taking place or not in the case of a male. Likely, if it's a female engaging in the beastiality, the animal is somewhat willing (due to the mechanics of it).

Same goes for necrophilia and paedophilia, for different reasons. With necrophilia, the only way it's not rape-ish is if the dead person has it in their will or something that they want the necrophiliac to be able to sex them all night. And of course, paedophilia has to do with the insecurities, inexperience, and impressionability of children.

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Ustwo

I think Charlatan is basically correct here. The availability of porn to men AND women has greatly changed how we view sex. VCR's and now the internet make the exploration of other sexual activities possible when before you had to go WELL out of your way to find it.

Lets take something like swinging, which used to require a print magazine, placing an add in it, and written letters for couples to get involved. Now there are countless websites where you can explore it from perfect safety. I'll also bet that shaving pubic hair can be traced directly back to porn. Its not the kind of thing most people talk about, yet as the bushes got smaller in porn so did they in a large segment of the general public.

Now the main issue is where does 'ick' begin or perversion.

I think homosexuality is now much more accepted not because of porn, the net, etc, but a change of thought that homosexuality is due to genetic/environmental factors so they can't help it and its a natural thing. Before the thought was you had to WANT to be a homosexual, it was a perversion.

Things like bestiality (ick), adult baby play (ewww), and scat play (ICK!) are still viewed as perversions, there has to be something WRONG with you, you are SICK. I base this on my feeling that wanting to fuck your dog is pretty fucked up, but wanting someone to shit in your mouth is REALLY fucked up.

While perhaps some day you will be able to introduce your dog as your lover without shame, but for a long while I think that 'ick' factor isn't going to move.

I think the next 'ick' slider will be in the realm of multiple marriages, open marriages, and the like. I'm not sure it will even take much to get there. If 2 people can get married, even if same sex, I defy anyone to make an argument why three shouldn't be able to. All arguments for homosexual marriages will apply to all other variants as well. Hell you could argue a 3 way marriage is MORE natural than a homosexual one since you can still produce children. Once gay marriage is accepted in the US (and I think it will be) this will be next.

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Charlatan

There was an article in the local weekly that was advocating the legalization of Polyamourism...

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ngdawg

EW!!!! Loving polyester?????

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Suave

I hear there was an epidemic in the '70s.

__________________
"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

ngdawg

There was, some of us almost didn't make it out alive!!! Hangnails were at an all time high!



only the wearers of 70's polyester would get that...that crap was horrid and would snag on things....

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

snowy

I've worn my fair share of 70s polyester--REAL AUTHENTIC POLYESTER--and yes, it does snag quite a bit...

Anyways...

Ick factor.

Given my study of the history of sexuality, I will concur with kramus: our idea of what is acceptable regarding sex has changed considerably with the times. Certain things (homosexuality, for one) have waxed and waned over the course of centuries, and their "ick" factor has changed as their popularity/our understanding of the behavior has changed.

I think our reduction in the ick factor over the last century has to do with three factors: 1) the rise of popular visual pornography (there has ALWAYS been pornography, but in the 20th century it was much more visual than before), 2) the internet (duh), and 3) the secularization of society.

The fact is, people have always done "icky" things behind closed doors, but the decrease in church attendance and the lack of a central church overseeing all has contributed to the decrease in taboo considerably. On top of this, we're seeing more sex online and in print, and in order to sell more porn, porn is attempting to do more and more outrageous things...well, you see where this is going. Are gangbangs and bukkake ever going to be a popular sexual practice? Doubtful, but there are a lot of things porn has done in the meantime that are now popular sexual practice. As for the internet, well, as everyone has said here, it's provided a means of connection.

As for my own personal "ick" factor, if it's currently classified as a philia, it probably doesn't really do it for me, and most of the present philias rightly end in prosecution.

I don't have a problem with non-traditional relatonships, homosexuality, bisexuality, BDSM, transsexuality...any of that. And if you have a philia that you can engage in with a consenting adult (ie adult baby play) then fine. But no thanks.

As for the decrease in female body hair...I could go into an extensive history of depilatory practices from the time of the Babylonians, but I'll refrain. Needless to say, women have been doin' the Brazilian since before there WERE Brazilians.

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thesupermikey

On the subject of necrphela in fiction: Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Vampires are dead and Buffy (and Cordie) are both in to a vampire in more ways than one. I read a an article in the Journal of Popular Culture a few months back dealing this this subject. It basicly talked about the psychological impact on this sort of thing in the media.

give me a few hours and i call put the text up.

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Zeraph

Disgust, is one of 3 basic emotions we are born with. It came around to keep us from eating spoiled food, keep us away from venomous piders and snakes, etc. Evolutionally the ick factor developed to help us survive. Occationlly wires get crossed and it gets applied to the wrong things like books, which is a phobia and is rare, so its only worth mentioning in passing.

Prince

Fucking a dead person. Somehow, I just can't see the appeal.

Cheers to Bill and his interesting thread, though. I can see where you're going with this, it's a good question.

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SERPENT7

Necrophilia seems to me to hold the same appeal as rape.
It is essentially selfishness reduced to its 'purest' form.
No thought is devoted to the partner, because there is no partner there. (Not in the traditional sense, anyway.)
This in turn means the rapist/necro-ist can devote ALL of his mental faculties to pleasing ONLY himself.
So it can be seen as just a more elaborate form of masterbation, if examined through this lens.

Personally, i am all for polyamory. (Consenting adults and all that.)
The difficulty arrises when kids and property is thrown in the mix.

As for the 'ICK' factor in general, ther are really only a couple of social tabboos that are nearly universal.
1: Cannibalism
2: Rape
3: Murder
4: Incest
And even then, -aside from rape- you could argue exceptions to all of them. But as a generalization, i think these things will always be illeagal, and therefore not openly practiced. Everything else, is open to modification as advertisers see fit.

ariekitten

this is an interesting thread, to say the least.
polyamorism? see, that's another ick factor for me. it may seem weird, but i'd rather share my man sexually with another woman than emotionally. just cuz sex these days can be really un-emotional. *shrug*
anyway, i woud hate to see a day when something like pedophilia became accepted, or even incest or rape. necrophilia is just down right gross, so that's ick right there for me. blech. i don't, however, think it's too farfetched to speculate that our society may one day be slightly more accepting of these things than it is now. heck, lots of people currently think bestiality is just an "oddity" and not an abhorrence, so....who knows.

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>'.'< kitty kitty, meow ^..^~

SecretMethod70

Things like necrophilia, coprophilia (scat), pedophilia, and beastiality all carry an ick factor for me. The main factors for this are consent issues and health issues. There is a world of difference between anal sex or analingus and coprophilia.

As for things like homosexuality, anal sex, BDSM, etc, I do think that changes in access to these things and in how we understand them has changed attitudes towards them. I mentioned something about this in the anal sex thread here in Tilted Sexuality. Three or 4 years ago, I don't think I would have ever considered the idea of analingus, but exposure to the subject eventually changed my perception of it.

The same goes for things like non-traditional relationships. I can't say I was ever *opposed* to the ideas of swinging or polyamory, and I'm sure I would have always responded to the idea of swinging with a "heh, cooool" or somesuch, but I'm much more honestly open to the ideas now than I have been in the past. In fact, one could say that I'm quite interested in the idea of a semi-polyamorous relationship now. Not really interested in anything like a 4-way marriage - I value my one-on-one relationship with onodrim too much for that - but I actually have a significant interest in something at least at a level similar to ratbastid/lurkette and their "umfriends" Even in this area, my attitudes have changed. When I first started being more seriously interested in the idea of alternative relationship lifestyles, I definitely leaned more towards the idea of casual swinging/sex. After being able to access more information on the subject and, through TFP, be in contact with people who are in various types of alternative relationships, I know now that I would prefer and am very interested in the idea of a more meaningful experience which goes beyond casual sex to a profound friendship - a "couple" of couples, if you will - moreso than I am interested in the idea of casual and uncommitted swinging. Whether the opportunity will ever come up, I couldn't tell you, but I know that my access to information through the internet has had a significant impact in how I think about these things because of the way it has allowed me to interact with people who have experience in them.

As far as UsTwo's point about the eventual legalization of homosexual marriage eventually leading to the legalization of multiple partner marriages and so forth, that's the logical conclusion, but things don't always follow logic. I don't think legalized multiple partner marriages are all that close, but that's not to say they may not eventually happen.

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shakran

Anne Rice is hardly the first to do that - in fact the original stories were much more brutal than they are today. In the original version, Sleeping Beauty fell dead from a poison splinter, was raped while dead by a nobleman, gave birth (while still "dead") to two kids, and it just gets worse from there.

The Bro's Grimm and Perault (Mother Goose) changed the original stories to be more in line with what they thought was suitable for children.

Bill O'Rights

Is there, though? I wonder. It seems, to me, that they would carry much the same Ick Factor. Of course, following that reasoning, oral sex would carry the same Ick Factor as "water sports". In the end (no pun intended), I suppose, it's all relative.

Speaking of relative...SERPENT7 mentioned incest. A subject that escaped my notice. He mentioned that exceptions could be argued to that social taboo. Can it? Under what condition(s) might incest be considered acceptable? Might the Incestual Ick Factor one day be sloughed off. Especially if one has a totally hot sister?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

ariekitten

shakran: if you can believe it, in HS our European History teacher read the original Sleeping Beauty to us. it was pretty shocking. the nobleman's wife hired her cook to kill/cook his twin children (borne by sleeping beauty) and serve them to him, but the cook can't go through with it, and in the end sleeping beauty wakes up and names them sun and moon? is that the one you're thinking of?

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I am known as Valentinez Alkalinella Xifax Sicidabohertz Gombigobilla Blue Stradivari Talentrent Pierre Andri Charton-Haymoss Ivanovici Baldeus George Doitzel Kaiser III. Don't hesitate to call.
~Vash, Trigun

>'.'< kitty kitty, meow ^..^~

The_Jazz

Define "incest". Is it just brother and sister? Mother/son, father/daughter? First cousins? Second cousins?

I think that everyone here would agree that shacking up with your sister is a little different than doing the same thing with someone who you happen to share a relative with 12 generations back. They're both degrees of the same thing.

Charlatan

Technically Vampires are un-dead and in the specific case of Buffy, they are souless bodies animated by Demons (Angel and later Spike being the exceptions to this rule).

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Bill O'Rights

Go back far enough and we all share a common ancestor. Be you a Creationist, or an evolutionist, that much is certain. Therefore, my wife may well be my 210th cousin, 798 times removed. Nah...I don't see it as degrees of the same thing, at all.
For the sake of argument, though, let's define "relative" as 1st cousin, and closer. Now...does nature build in an Ick Factor, to keep us from nailing our own sisters, mothers, aunt's, and 1st cousins? Hell, let's even remove 1st cousins from the equation (just in case there are West Virginians participating. J/K) Is there a programed Ick Factor there? Or is it another learned response?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

maleficent

I got dumped by a guy who went back to his old girlfriend, who was also his current third cousin... that might not be in violation of the laws of theland or the laws of any church but it was still an ick... Relatives is still relatives... and that's still an ick..

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