12-21-2005, 08:25 AM | #241 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
WASH POST, July 15, 1994, "Administration Backing No-Warrant Spy Searches": Extend not only to searches of the homes of U.S. citizens but also -- in the delicate words of a Justice Department official -- to "places where you wouldn't find or would be unlikely to find information involving a U.S. citizen... would allow the government to use classified electronic surveillance techniques, such as infrared sensors to observe people inside their homes, without a court order." Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick, the Clinton administration believes the president "has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches for foreign intelligence purposes."
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
12-21-2005, 08:31 AM | #242 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
|
Ustwo, as posted just a few posts back,
Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section. In case you missed it: if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section. Siiiiiiiggggghhhhhhhhhhh:::::::::::::::::
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
12-21-2005, 08:34 AM | #243 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
|
Quote:
I think it is just human nature to make an argument by slipping in an assumption without examining it. This is not a "left" or "right" phenonemon, it just apparently is. Likewise, the complaining when someone does it. *feeling particularly introspective this am*
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
|
12-21-2005, 08:41 AM | #244 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
Whats your point here?
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
12-21-2005, 08:45 AM | #245 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
|
The AG did not make the certifications.
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
12-21-2005, 08:50 AM | #246 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Ugh this is where a guy in a British military uniform should come in and say....
"I'm stopping this sketch because it has become extremely silly."
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
12-21-2005, 08:52 AM | #247 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
|
I don't get that. Why? With a certification, there's a record. If something gets screwed up, there's a record of what happened, or why it was approved.
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
12-21-2005, 08:53 AM | #248 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
|
Quote:
If the AG made the certifications for bush, he wouldn't have broken the law? What are you trying to get at here?
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
|
12-21-2005, 09:02 AM | #249 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
|
Quote:
__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
|
12-21-2005, 09:08 AM | #250 (permalink) | ||
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
Quote:
it is also interesting to watch how the right defenses modulate: cheney talks yesterday in terms of a longer-term view of executive power and here you have the conservatives here taking the same line. "sponteneously" of course. the argument about executive power as the right woudl frame it here is a non sequitor in general and false in its particulars. superbelt pointed out the main flaws already. typically, these do not register with the right, which persists in its usual lather rinse repeat mode. in the real world, there is no such certainty: Quote:
but whatever--this is obviously only in a small measure about information and its evaluation, and in much greater measure about how hard folk on the right find it to introduce ANYTHING critical of the bush people into their political lanscape. sad, really.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
||
12-21-2005, 09:17 AM | #251 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Hawaii
|
Okay so I've read through most of this post and it scares and angers me. People will go spouting off about there "Oh so untouchable rights" yet are willing to sacrifice NOTHING what so ever to have them. They want to sit on there butts at home with more crap then most anyone in the world has because it's "Their right" to have these nice things. What did you do to earn these wondrous rights I ask??? Your For Fathers fought and died for them, they sacrificed there time and lives to do so. Yet you can't stand the thought of someone listening in on your calls to some country, where the hell ever it is or read those oh so important e-mails that God forbid someone see, because it will totally ruin your life when they read it or listen in and say "No he's not planning on killing innocent people" and never once think twice about it. It’s not some average Joe we’re talking about. These are people who are trained, and tested over and over again to get their jobs with background checks that are worse then the worst audit. These people can and will keep your secret fling with the dancing clown a secret, because it’s there job to do so. If you are planning on blowing up the Brooklyn bridge though there going to cause you some problems.
Did Bush break the law, yeah if you, or I, or any other average Joe did it, but when your the NSA, FBI, CIA, INTERPOL, or any other organization DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY to catch those who don't want to be caught NO NO and NO no law was broken. Do we as a nation really expect the above-mentioned organizations to get a warrant for EVERY wiretap they want? These are the guys that have to sneak in the shadows to catch the BAD GUYS. How else are they going to catch these people? The very reason for a government agency is to not be seen. If your not doing anything wrong then you have Nothing to worry about. Hell you will never even know they are/were there. Yeah I'm sorry some people got grilled over what they said, did, or wrote. That's all that happened though they got grilled. If they were innocent then nothing happened. I'd rather have them be a little too careful then not careful enough. Think of the parent who goes through their kids stuff because they think they’re on/or drugs doing or something they shouldn't be. Are they wrong when they find drugs, guns, or a letter on how they plan on doing something completely wrong that could harm them or others? Should we punish that parent for violating their child’s right to privacy? Then we'll give the kid back the drugs, guns, or what ever and tell them to have a nice day. Now that child will fill safe knowing that their rights are being protected to the fullest extent possible. Now yes in the Utopian society that some think we live in the parents can simply go up to there 100% morally right kid and say, "Hey Billy/Suzie are you smoking crack?” and yes in the Utopian society you happy people live in Billy/Suzie will happily say, "Why yes mom/dad I was/or have been smoking crack." Just remember in that Utopian society there will be no drug, guns, or problems. Now it the real world where I live unfortunately this won't happen, so mom and dad have to do a little looking into things on there own. Not all have to do this but more do then don't. It's the same with the government, and if your doing nothing wrong then you have no worries. Please remember this is only about the wiretaps. Please don't take my writing (as miss spelled and grammatically incorrect as it is) to be open hostility, I only meant to show how vehemently I feel about this subject. Every one has there own opinion and I can live with that. If I came off harsh I’m sorry. Mods if you want me to change this please let me know and I will.
__________________
Freedom is NOT Free. |
12-21-2005, 09:18 AM | #252 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
|
12-21-2005, 09:20 AM | #253 (permalink) | |
Junkie
|
Quote:
|
|
12-21-2005, 09:21 AM | #254 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
|
Quote:
|
|
12-21-2005, 09:21 AM | #255 (permalink) | |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
|
Quote:
If Bush used that cert for domestic spying, then yes, though there is no order in place that duplicates that order. Bush's wiretapping has been entirely domestic. How can it be that 100% of the wiretapping that is supposed to involve foreign interests is domestic?
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
|
12-21-2005, 09:23 AM | #256 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
||
12-21-2005, 09:25 AM | #257 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
|
in the Utopian society you happy people live in Billy/Suzie will happily say, "Why yes mom/dad I was/or have been smoking crack."
I SO want to make this my tagline.
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
12-21-2005, 09:43 AM | #259 (permalink) | |||
Insane
Location: Hawaii
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Freedom is NOT Free. |
|||
12-21-2005, 10:22 AM | #260 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
|
the premise of this thread is not a legal question--it is not about the (obvious) problems the bush squad has caused for themselves by their excessively enthusiastic take on their own j.d. legal memos---it is not whether there are grounds for a formal investigation and potentially formal charges against the administration--though there are obviously grounds for an investigation and i would not be surprised to see that this ends up being the Real Mistake, the one that the administration cannot talk away....
the real premise of the thread is the question of whether the extralegal arguments are compelling--these extra-legal arguments center on the "war on terror" and its psychological correlates. this question can be reduced to a matter of relative paranoia. do folk on the right feel more special than the rest of us because they imagine "terrorism" is a constant direct threat to them personally--this in the face of all evidence to the contrary----what it involved with this question for conservatives? they never---ever--address the matter, but it is crucial to every last response above that even tried to defend the bush administration. it is the centre of this debate, such as it is. yet no-one addresses it. all you get is a series of various indices of the extent to which the matter operates psychologically for individual conservatives. that's it. it is like a "fact" in conservativeland. what causes this sense of "terrorism" to vary with political affiliation? what justifies it? are certain types of information sources more likely to present "terrorism" as a constant, real menace than others? how do these information souces line up politically? fact is, folks, that there is nothing "objective" about your sense of this fiction called the "war on terror"---there is no agreement on what it means, this "war--no agreement on the nature of the adversary--no agreement about the danger posed to civilians by it--no agreement on causes--no agreement about anything, really. what justifies the separation of the notion of "terrorism" from the arrangements backed by the americans internationally? that is, on what basis does anyone, anywhere accept the argument floated by the bush people sine 9/12/2001 that "terrorism" can be understood as something other than a political response to aspects of globalizing capitalism on the one hand and american foreign policy on the other? it would seem to me that if you want to combat "terrorism" you would have to advocate basic changes to the international capitalist order and to american foreign policy, particularly in the middle east. which means that you would have to know what the americans are doing, and what they are blamed for. the right seems totally uninterested in such matters, presumably as a function of a politically sanctioned type of ignorance. yet the folk on the right wonder why others do not buy their arguments. they do not buy them because of all the extra stuff involved with even starting to take them seriously----which conservatives seem incapable of laying out and debating. but for any of the conservative arguments to be valid at all, there has to be some kind of coherent view of the question of "terrorism"--for these arguments to hold in this kind of debate, that view of "terrorism" would have to be introduced as a major premise and defended as such--as things stand, all it is is an arbitrarily invoked bit of background information the only interest in which is its persistence across rightwing views expressed in this thread. the right does not have a compelling claim that the bushsquad's survellance actions are legal---i have read through the various attempts above to argue this point, and i find none of them even interesting, much less compelling. what it comes down to is a sense of whether the bush squad is justified in its actions based on raison d'etat. period. and so around we go.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 12-21-2005 at 10:24 AM.. |
12-21-2005, 10:59 AM | #261 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
|
I have no problem sacrifing anything, if I believe in the cause and it is done legally.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
12-21-2005, 11:32 AM | #262 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
12-21-2005, 11:33 AM | #263 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
12-21-2005, 11:38 AM | #264 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
|
John Schmidt served under President Clinton as the associate attorney general of the United States. He believes bush was well within the law to authorize those wire taps.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...commentary-hed Quote:
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
|
12-21-2005, 11:41 AM | #265 (permalink) | |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
|
Quote:
That's just a microcosm of a bigger problem, being that if I pick up a phone in my home and call Canada, the US government should have absolutely no right to listen in. As far as whether they've monitored domestic-domestic conversations, they won't say exactly and we'll have to see what happens in the Specter hearing.
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
|
12-21-2005, 11:43 AM | #266 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
|
Quote:
Hitler's extermination of Undesirables was "legal" because he made the laws. Yet I believe you wouldn't do it because you didn't "believe" in it. Likewise, I think you would probably fight against it because you believed in the cause even though it was "illegal". And thus is the problem with saying things are legal/illegal without some consideration to the larger framework of "right" and "wrong". Individuals are inclined to do what they consider to be "right" if they believe in it strongly enough, regardless of legality. This is true whether it is a French freedom fighter or an abortion clinic bomber. Where the "legal" aspect enters is what the majority ends up believing and deciding to make "legal". Hitler was a charismatic leader who persuaded the masses to make him the "legal" ruler and by extension, rule maker. This is where I believe the only real comparision between Bush and Hitler can be made. Bush also has a vision of what he believes it "right" and he is trying his hardest to persuade the American public to back him which leads naturally to a Congress that will make his actions "legal". He is also showing that he is trying hard to interpret the existing rules to make his actions "legal". I don't think anyone would disagree with his larger "good" of making America safe from terrorism, but the devil is in the details. Ultimately, history will tell us who was right and who was wrong.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
|
12-21-2005, 11:52 AM | #267 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
|
Bfore I go to work..... I have one thing to say..........
Give Willravel a million bucks....Give Willravel a million bucks....Give Willravel a million bucks....
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
12-21-2005, 12:10 PM | #268 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Hehe I think the title of this thread needs to be changed based to fit the current tone.
Replace ' Did the Bush admin break the law?' with.... 'We hope the Bush admin broke the law.' We are arguing over technicalities, unknown data, and legal issues NONE of us have the slightest knowledge over. My stance has always been Bush did what was necessary in light of the 9/11 attacks, the technicalities of the case don't matter to me, frankly I wasn't worried if they were illegal, as I feel it was the right thing to do (though I never thought they were illegal in the first place). Now that more and more information is pointing to the fact that they were not illegal as presented, it seems the switch is to find what ELSE they did, hoping to find something illegal, not because of any fundamental outrage but as a way to 'get Bush', basically they want to go fishing. Well cast your lures away folks, this is an issue where the American people will again react not in outrage over Bush, but in outrage over those who weaken the security of the nation in their quest for political power. Maybe when this is all said and done, 11 months from now when it seems that SOMEHOW the Republicans gained in the midterms we can start a thread in paranoia about how Karl Rove leaked the wire tap story hoping for senate hearings which made the Democrats look like obstructionists yet again for another election.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
12-21-2005, 12:16 PM | #269 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
|
Let’s see how the people react when a court rules that a known terrorist is going scot-free because the surveillance is ruled illegal. Why not go through the extra few minutes to get a warrant to make sure we have these bastards and they can’t get away?
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
12-21-2005, 12:20 PM | #270 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
12-21-2005, 12:33 PM | #271 (permalink) |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
|
Since this thread is checked all day, I'll put this here. I'm out for the rest of the year. Have a merry Christmas and a happy new year, you all!
__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
12-21-2005, 12:37 PM | #272 (permalink) | |
Junkie
|
Quote:
They lied about aluminum tubes They lied about Sadam trying to buy uranium They paid Armstrong Williams to write fluff pieces for them They paid Jeff Gannon to ask softball questions to them They leak information to discredit critics They cover up the fact that they leaked information They lied about torturing people They hold american citizens without trial or access to lawyers They accuse crtics of being traitors with regularity Now we see that they possibly abused wiretap powers. When is enough enough? I'm willing to reserve judgement on the potential wiretap abuses until we know for sure but the only way to know if to have a full investigation by an independant counsell. |
|
12-21-2005, 12:47 PM | #273 (permalink) | |||
Banned
|
Quote:
Quote:
Your "take" on this is a bit of a stretch, Ustwo! http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=222 Quote:
Very similar to the BS he spoke in Buffalo on April 20, 2004, and the BS that Gonzales gave under oath to Senator Feingold on Jan. 6, 2005. If you take these men at their word, Ustwo, you are naive and you demonstrate only a casual embrace of your guaranteed rights spelled out in our constitution. |
|||
12-21-2005, 12:47 PM | #274 (permalink) |
Junkie
|
This administration is 'not guilty' in the sense that OJ was 'not guilty'
Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed democracy, the Democrats would certainly want you to believe that President Bush is a criminal. And they make a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself. But ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one, final, thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentleman, this is Chew-bacca. Chewbacca is a Wookie from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca… LIVES …on the planet Endor. Now think about that. That does NOT MAKE SENSE. Why would a Wookie, an eight-foot tall Wookie, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does NOT MAKE SENSE! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does NOT MAKE SENSE! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending the President of the United States, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed democracy, it does NOT MAKE SENSE! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests. Here, look at the monkey. Look at the silly monkey. |
12-21-2005, 01:15 PM | #275 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
|
Apparently I'm not the only one thinking this way....
Quote:
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
|
12-21-2005, 01:27 PM | #276 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
|
Quote:
Talk about breaking down contexts of arguments in to contexts of time periods combined with macro global conflicts in micro judicial definitions of legalities and illegalities as it concerns presidential powers according to the constitution etc. and blah blah blah. are you a fan of chaos theory by chance?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
|
12-21-2005, 01:28 PM | #277 (permalink) | |
Republican slayer
Location: WA
|
Quote:
And understand this quote too (it been said a lot in this thread but it bears repeating until the sheep of this country understand it and stand up to dictator Bush.) "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin Last edited by Hardknock; 12-21-2005 at 01:31 PM.. |
|
12-21-2005, 01:32 PM | #278 (permalink) | |
Republican slayer
Location: WA
|
Quote:
Are you trying to imply that wireptaps that violate the fourth amendment have no justification in this case? |
|
12-21-2005, 01:41 PM | #279 (permalink) | |
Republican slayer
Location: WA
|
Quote:
|
|
12-21-2005, 01:45 PM | #280 (permalink) | |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
|
Quote:
It's all a lie, but it's easier than thinking.
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
|
Tags |
admin, break, bush, law |
|
|