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#1 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Preemptive Police-State Tactics
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#2 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Harlem
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I am a staunch civil libertarian, but I accept that certain liberties unfortunately have to be surrendered to secure a state actively involved in a war of this nature. This though is completely inexcusable.
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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me. |
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#3 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Sounds pretty stupid to me. Lets just start racial profiling, get the job done, and quit this circus.
I have no clue how this program will do anything beyond public awareness, and it seems like a waste of resources to do it this way.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#4 (permalink) |
Baltimoron
Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD
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"Mary Ann Viverette, president of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, said the Miami program is similar to those used for years during the holiday season to deter criminals at busy places such as shopping malls."
I've never seen that before. Ever. Terrible idea.
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"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun |
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#5 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I think it is a variation on the "flying patrol" concept, which is a well established police tactic, in which officers don't stick to a specific pattern and instead just show up somewhere. Not sure how effective such an extension of the tactic might be to deter terrorism, however.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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#6 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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#8 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#9 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#11 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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The threat is real.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#12 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#13 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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Our government is selling a police-state, and people are buying it hook line and sinker. Be careful what you wish for. |
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#14 (permalink) | ||||
Devoted
Donor
Location: New England
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I can't read your signature. Sorry. Last edited by Redlemon; 11-29-2005 at 08:51 AM.. |
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#15 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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If we are this upset about terroism based on that list of names why aren't there flying wedges of doctors out there randomly combating the flu virus or heart disease?
This effort by the police is to make everyone else think they are doing *something*. It's just a little show to make you feel better over the holidays. Yes, there should be efforts made to reduce the risk of terrorism, I just don't think this method is practical or useful.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#16 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Not at all. Trying reading between the lines here, I don't think any of you really think Kutulu was AKING how many attacks happened on US soil. If you think he had an honest question there you need to work on reading comprehension skills. He was implying that the number of attacks equals the risks of such attacks, which is just pathetic. Most terrorist attacks on Americans do happen outside of the US, that doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to it and dismiss the potential. I agree that the Miami police are going to be wasting their time, and its stupid, but that doesn't mean that the threat isn't real, or do we need another list like the one above to show the threat is real? Of course that could be just one more attack, and since its the number that matters we can ignore the threat. (That last line, btw, was sarcasm).
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#17 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I don't understand why Miami is doing what it is doing, while we have a President and Congress allowing illegal aliens to come in from Mexico by the 1000's daily and wants to give them ID cards while setting aside a billion tax dollars to treat them medically. Oh, I forgot, they allow this because of the cheap illegal labor., even though they know they are opening a huge door for terrorists to enter unchecked.
IMO Miami can show all the force they want, they'll only turn that city into a ghost town with their police state antics. Once the terrorists are in the country, they will find a way to get around these police power shows if they truly want to.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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#18 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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The list was a bit of melodrama to be sure, but basing the threat on the number of attacks is foolish. Another question would be 'How many terrorist attacks have been worse than 9/11?'
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#19 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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paranoia is a great motivator, particularly of worthless theaterical actions.
all you need, really, to achieve a mindset in which such nonsense as that undertaken by the miami pd makes sense is a mantra like ustwo's--"the threat is real"--for that matter, so is the threat of being hit by a meteor, of being injured in a rain of frogs, of spontaneous combustion--worst, there is the ongoing danger posed by the possibility that the plastic madonna you bought at some gas station will start weeping and then next thing you know you'll have legions of catholics sitting in lawn chairs all over your property. yup. paranoia and its twin hysteria are great motivators: for the re-organization of military intelligence gathering to include domestic surveillance under the guise of the "war on terror"... arbitrary displays of the capability various police departments have to move about in formation are designed to counter hysteria by turning it up. apparently, the right wants to be sure that all the social "muscles" associated with hysteria are in tip top condition---that way, if another attack were to happen, the population would be limber and prepared to bend over before any and all manly assertions of the state's monopoly on "legitimate violence" just as ustwo has. if you are in such condition, it is easier to see some rationale behind such arbitrary displays of the ability of an urban police department to move about in formation, and from there to acquiesce to any and all such displays, and not worry about their implications. and for conservatives, this limber/toned set of muscles associated with hysteria apparently even allow for a curious modulation in their views of the state: irrational in every economic and social context, the state is suddenly rational and unerring when it comes to displays of potentials for organized violence, so long as these actions come complete with cool uniforms and manly radio communications. so when the state regulates economic activity, it is bad bad bad; but when the state organizes displays of its paramilitary police organization and tactics, the right goes all soft inside. this must appear to make sense from the posture of bent-over acquiescence. from any other viewpoint, it seems inverted--be suspicious of the state when it is not exercizing violence, but trust it when it is. but of course "the threat is real"....and so hysteria is required...the fact that the american petit bourgeois is willing to trade away anything and everything for the illusion of safety should deter any conceivable "terrorist" threat. but if you think about it, who really needs terrorists if this social group is willing to trade away everything already, simply as a function of its fear of possible attacks?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 11-29-2005 at 09:31 AM.. |
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#20 (permalink) |
Born Against
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I think we ought to send the Miami police force over to Baghdad, where they could do some random displays of force and demand to see ID cards. They would be much more effective over there, since as we should all know by know, Iraq is the central front in the war on terror. Goodness knows we need as many enthusiastic anti-terrorists over there as we can muster. They can make it a regular part of the monthly rotation. And I'm sure there's some slush fund in Miami that could be appropriated to pay their airfare.
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#21 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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This is just stupid. IMO this simply sounds like it's simply a power play by the Police Chief in some internal political battle.
It'll do no good. I've had cops patrolling the UT campus at night asking for ID's, I simply tell them to fuck off. Are they good people? probably. Are they good cops? probably. But unless I give some sort of suspision of crime I expect them to leave me the hell alone. |
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#24 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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That's cute RB, cops checking ID's and increased survilance(sp) of high traffic areas, something that they are well within their full legal rights to do, now makes them "paramiltary police"?
The 1984 tinfoil club here seems to be taking a little bit to deep of a look here on this one, not seeing it for what it really is; Miami, being one city, is making a move that is perhaps unnecessary, however completely legal and not at the behest of the feds, the same feds that are constantly charged with unfounded allegations of stripping away civil liberties of the American populace.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
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#25 (permalink) | |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
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#27 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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mojo: perhaps you should think about what i was trying to say this way: when it comes to displays of paramilitary type order on the part of federal or state authorities, the right seems to go all weak at the knees and puts aside any concern about abrogation of civil liberties that may follow from cheerleading such actions. this tendency directly contradicts most conservative views of the state in other areas. how does this hold together? personally, i think it is yet another space in which conservative ideology is incoherent. but prove me wrong. i'd be happy to see an actual argument.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#28 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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I'm not going weak at the knees, the fact is, this LONE act of LOCAL (read: not federal or state) law enforcement is not attacking anyone's civil liberties. I wholeheartedly agree it's both stupid and pointless and a waste of resources. As far as proving arguments goes, no one from the "left" (since you never seem to blink when throwing out conservative or "right") has put up any argument that is founded in reality, nor fact, that this has anything to do with erosion of any liberties, or that it is somehow related to "conservative" idealogy, the idealogy that we "lumpen conservatives" are somehow fond of consoldating power and stripping away rights of citizens.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
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#29 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Maimi is hardely a conservative city, and I don't hear any conservatives on this board supporting this. Most of us think its pretty stupid. We don't see it as an infringment of civil liberties either, just pointless grandstanding.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#30 (permalink) |
Extreme moderation
Location: Kansas City, yo.
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What are the legal ramifications to refusing to show ID? Would you be charged with a crime if you refuse to show it?
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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck) |
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#31 (permalink) | |
Baltimoron
Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD
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"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun |
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#32 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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o please, dj: look at posts 8-12 and tell me that i am blowing anything out of proportion. ustwo posted a list of victims of 9/11 and concluded with the "threat is real" slogan--this move ran directly counter to the position he outlined before that and counter to what we wrote later as qualification. it was a clearly an index that tried to justify whatever displays of authority the state would decide to take in the name of the war on terror.
perhaps you read things differently than that--had i posted as late in the thread as you did, dj, perhaps i would have agreed with you and not bothered with this at all. there was no way to anticipate a response to the post. not psychic. sorry.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#33 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Will they be handing out umbrellas in case of a meteor shower as well? Parhaps we can get some advil in case of brain tumors! Maybe they should arbitratily shoot people just in case they are actuallyt extra terrestrials!
This won't stop anything, AND will waste money, recources, and manpower that could otherwise be utilized more effectively stopping crimes that are being or are going to be committed. |
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#34 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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RB tell me how this has anything to do with Conservatives? Ustwo was pointing out that there IS a threat from terrorists. I didnt hear ONE statement from him supporting this.
Not ONE person on this thread has said this is acceptable. Now just because one city in one state has gone overboard we have to cover ourselves in tinfoil? Put Orwell down, walk around outside and realize how much the government doesn't have control over us, nor could they with their best attempts (they cant even find my neighbor with 3 warrants when he's living in his own registered house). |
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#35 (permalink) | |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
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#36 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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The question you were responding to: Quote:
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#37 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#38 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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I don't like this either but I don't really blame the police to much. I think they may be out of ideas or something as opposed to some grander scheme or conspiracy of taking away our rights. Still, bad idea but maybe not so bad intentions.
*sigh* It can't be an easy job - trying to provide security for a threat that is so invisible or unquantifieable. Nonetheless, I really don't think terrorism is as much as a threat as the media et al is making it out to be. |
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#39 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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wanna see how quickly this new 'tactic' of 'in your face' would stop? try saying 'no thank you, i'll just go home and watch the game'. If a majority of people STOPPED deciding that seeing a friggin football game was worth more than relinquishing their privacy then MONEY, or the lack thereof, would stop this crap in its tracks.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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#40 (permalink) |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Roachboy has made a compelling argument about the effect of this kind of "force" would have at the state and federal level. Samcol introduced at good topic, and I have stolen his idea to start a similar topic concerning the DoD.
Kisses to Samcol, for picking his pocket. ![]() |
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policestate, preemptive, tactics |
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