samcol

Is this kind of show of force really neccessary? To me this is has nothing to do with terrorism and has everything to do with showing the public who's boss. Showing up randomly to public places and asking for ID sounds a little crazy to me.

Sho Nuff

I am a staunch civil libertarian, but I accept that certain liberties unfortunately have to be surrendered to secure a state actively involved in a war of this nature. This though is completely inexcusable.

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Ustwo

Sounds pretty stupid to me. Lets just start racial profiling, get the job done, and quit this circus.

I have no clue how this program will do anything beyond public awareness, and it seems like a waste of resources to do it this way.

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djtestudo

"Mary Ann Viverette, president of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, said the Miami program is similar to those used for years during the holiday season to deter criminals at busy places such as shopping malls."

I've never seen that before. Ever.

Terrible idea.

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highthief

I think it is a variation on the "flying patrol" concept, which is a well established police tactic, in which officers don't stick to a specific pattern and instead just show up somewhere. Not sure how effective such an extension of the tactic might be to deter terrorism, however.

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kutulu

Fucking pigs. This is bullshit. It won't do anything to stop terrorists. Just how many terrorist attacks have occurred on US soil?

Redlemon

They won't catch any terrorists. They probably won't catch any criminals. They will, however, arrest a bunch of civil libertarians who don't want to hand their ID over.

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Ustwo

This is page one.

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Ustwo

This is page two.

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filtherton

Are those all people who have committed terrorist attacks? Wowsers. A lot of those names don't look like they belong to muslims at all.

Ustwo

This is page three.

The threat is real.

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Ustwo

Try not to be dense on purpose please.

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samcol

Do you really believe showing up randomly in public in full force and asking for ID's is the way to combat terrorism?

Our government is selling a police-state, and people are buying it hook line and sinker. Be careful what you wish for.

Redlemon

Kutulu asked how many attacks, not how many deaths. Ustwo either misread the question or intentionally changed the subject.

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Charlatan

If we are this upset about terroism based on that list of names why aren't there flying wedges of doctors out there randomly combating the flu virus or heart disease?


This effort by the police is to make everyone else think they are doing *something*. It's just a little show to make you feel better over the holidays.

Yes, there should be efforts made to reduce the risk of terrorism, I just don't think this method is practical or useful.

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Ustwo

.

Not at all.

Trying reading between the lines here, I don't think any of you really think Kutulu was AKING how many attacks happened on US soil. If you think he had an honest question there you need to work on reading comprehension skills. He was implying that the number of attacks equals the risks of such attacks, which is just pathetic.

Most terrorist attacks on Americans do happen outside of the US, that doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to it and dismiss the potential.

I agree that the Miami police are going to be wasting their time, and its stupid, but that doesn't mean that the threat isn't real, or do we need another list like the one above to show the threat is real? Of course that could be just one more attack, and since its the number that matters we can ignore the threat. (That last line, btw, was sarcasm).

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pan6467

I don't understand why Miami is doing what it is doing, while we have a President and Congress allowing illegal aliens to come in from Mexico by the 1000's daily and wants to give them ID cards while setting aside a billion tax dollars to treat them medically. Oh, I forgot, they allow this because of the cheap illegal labor., even though they know they are opening a huge door for terrorists to enter unchecked.

IMO Miami can show all the force they want, they'll only turn that city into a ghost town with their police state antics. Once the terrorists are in the country, they will find a way to get around these police power shows if they truly want to.

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Ustwo

The media is trying to get this with the concept of a pandemic bird-flu hype (and don't get me started on that).

The list was a bit of melodrama to be sure, but basing the threat on the number of attacks is foolish. Another question would be 'How many terrorist attacks have been worse than 9/11?'

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roachboy

paranoia is a great motivator, particularly of worthless theaterical actions.

all you need, really, to achieve a mindset in which such nonsense as that undertaken by the miami pd makes sense is a mantra like ustwo's--"the threat is real"--for that matter, so is the threat of being hit by a meteor, of being injured in a rain of frogs, of spontaneous combustion--worst, there is the ongoing danger posed by the possibility that the plastic madonna you bought at some gas station will start weeping and then next thing you know you'll have legions of catholics sitting in lawn chairs all over your property.

yup. paranoia and its twin hysteria are great motivators: for the re-organization of military intelligence gathering to include domestic surveillance under the guise of the "war on terror"...

arbitrary displays of the capability various police departments have to move about in formation are designed to counter hysteria by turning it up. apparently, the right wants to be sure that all the social "muscles" associated with hysteria are in tip top condition---that way, if another attack were to happen, the population would be limber and prepared to bend over before any and all manly assertions of the state's monopoly on "legitimate violence" just as ustwo has.

if you are in such condition, it is easier to see some rationale behind such arbitrary displays of the ability of an urban police department to move about in formation, and from there to acquiesce to any and all such displays, and not worry about their implications. and for conservatives, this limber/toned set of muscles associated with hysteria apparently even allow for a curious modulation in their views of the state: irrational in every economic and social context, the state is suddenly rational and unerring when it comes to displays of potentials for organized violence, so long as these actions come complete with cool uniforms and manly radio communications.

so when the state regulates economic activity, it is bad bad bad; but when the state organizes displays of its paramilitary police organization and tactics, the right goes all soft inside. this must appear to make sense from the posture of bent-over acquiescence. from any other viewpoint, it seems inverted--be suspicious of the state when it is not exercizing violence, but trust it when it is.

but of course "the threat is real"....and so hysteria is required...the fact that the american petit bourgeois is willing to trade away anything and everything for the illusion of safety should deter any conceivable "terrorist" threat.

but if you think about it, who really needs terrorists if this social group is willing to trade away everything already, simply as a function of its fear of possible attacks?

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raveneye

I think we ought to send the Miami police force over to Baghdad, where they could do some random displays of force and demand to see ID cards. They would be much more effective over there, since as we should all know by know, Iraq is the central front in the war on terror. Goodness knows we need as many enthusiastic anti-terrorists over there as we can muster. They can make it a regular part of the monthly rotation. And I'm sure there's some slush fund in Miami that could be appropriated to pay their airfare.

Seaver

This is just stupid. IMO this simply sounds like it's simply a power play by the Police Chief in some internal political battle.

It'll do no good. I've had cops patrolling the UT campus at night asking for ID's, I simply tell them to fuck off. Are they good people? probably. Are they good cops? probably.

But unless I give some sort of suspision of crime I expect them to leave me the hell alone.

ObieX

All this does is give any terrorists who are actually planning an attack in Miami more police targets in one location. This wont deter anything.

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Redlemon

(reminds self that he shouldn't be posting in Politics)

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Mojo_PeiPei

That's cute RB, cops checking ID's and increased survilance(sp) of high traffic areas, something that they are well within their full legal rights to do, now makes them "paramiltary police"?

The 1984 tinfoil club here seems to be taking a little bit to deep of a look here on this one, not seeing it for what it really is; Miami, being one city, is making a move that is perhaps unnecessary, however completely legal and not at the behest of the feds, the same feds that are constantly charged with unfounded allegations of stripping away civil liberties of the American populace.

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SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!

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highthief

That's helpful.

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roachboy

mojo: perhaps you should think about what i was trying to say this way: when it comes to displays of paramilitary type order on the part of federal or state authorities, the right seems to go all weak at the knees and puts aside any concern about abrogation of civil liberties that may follow from cheerleading such actions. this tendency directly contradicts most conservative views of the state in other areas. how does this hold together? personally, i think it is yet another space in which conservative ideology is incoherent. but prove me wrong. i'd be happy to see an actual argument.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Mojo_PeiPei

I'm not going weak at the knees, the fact is, this LONE act of LOCAL (read: not federal or state) law enforcement is not attacking anyone's civil liberties. I wholeheartedly agree it's both stupid and pointless and a waste of resources. As far as proving arguments goes, no one from the "left" (since you never seem to blink when throwing out conservative or "right") has put up any argument that is founded in reality, nor fact, that this has anything to do with erosion of any liberties, or that it is somehow related to "conservative" idealogy, the idealogy that we "lumpen conservatives" are somehow fond of consoldating power and stripping away rights of citizens.

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Ustwo

Sometimes I go against my better judgement but...

Maimi is hardely a conservative city, and I don't hear any conservatives on this board supporting this. Most of us think its pretty stupid. We don't see it as an infringment of civil liberties either, just pointless grandstanding.

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Toaster126

What are the legal ramifications to refusing to show ID? Would you be charged with a crime if you refuse to show it?

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djtestudo

Unless I'm misreading what Ustwo was saying, you are blowing that one line from him WAY out of proportion. Especially when he agreed that this is a stupid idea, and I don't remember reading in this thread anyone from the "right" supporting this.

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roachboy

o please, dj: look at posts 8-12 and tell me that i am blowing anything out of proportion. ustwo posted a list of victims of 9/11 and concluded with the "threat is real" slogan--this move ran directly counter to the position he outlined before that and counter to what we wrote later as qualification. it was a clearly an index that tried to justify whatever displays of authority the state would decide to take in the name of the war on terror.

perhaps you read things differently than that--had i posted as late in the thread as you did, dj, perhaps i would have agreed with you and not bothered with this at all. there was no way to anticipate a response to the post. not psychic. sorry.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Willravel

Will they be handing out umbrellas in case of a meteor shower as well? Parhaps we can get some advil in case of brain tumors! Maybe they should arbitratily shoot people just in case they are actuallyt extra terrestrials!

This won't stop anything, AND will waste money, recources, and manpower that could otherwise be utilized more effectively stopping crimes that are being or are going to be committed.

Seaver

RB tell me how this has anything to do with Conservatives? Ustwo was pointing out that there IS a threat from terrorists. I didnt hear ONE statement from him supporting this.

Not ONE person on this thread has said this is acceptable. Now just because one city in one state has gone overboard we have to cover ourselves in tinfoil?

Put Orwell down, walk around outside and realize how much the government doesn't have control over us, nor could they with their best attempts (they cant even find my neighbor with 3 warrants when he's living in his own registered house).

Mojo_PeiPei

Believe they can take you into custody, establish who you are, and charge you accordingly.

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Willravel

Approximately how many attacks are represented by your list? Just ball park.

The question you were responding to:
You responded with a victims list, but not a number of attacks.

Ustwo

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jorgelito

I don't like this either but I don't really blame the police to much. I think they may be out of ideas or something as opposed to some grander scheme or conspiracy of taking away our rights. Still, bad idea but maybe not so bad intentions.

*sigh* It can't be an easy job - trying to provide security for a threat that is so invisible or unquantifieable.

Nonetheless, I really don't think terrorism is as much as a threat as the media et al is making it out to be.

dksuddeth

wanna see how quickly this new 'tactic' of 'in your face' would stop? try saying 'no thank you, i'll just go home and watch the game'. If a majority of people STOPPED deciding that seeing a friggin football game was worth more than relinquishing their privacy then MONEY, or the lack thereof, would stop this crap in its tracks.

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Elphaba

Roachboy has made a compelling argument about the effect of this kind of "force" would have at the state and federal level. Samcol introduced at good topic, and I have stolen his idea to start a similar topic concerning the DoD.

Kisses to Samcol, for picking his pocket.