Nirvana

A television station backed by a Saudi prince has sparked outrage by broadcasting clips that show young children being taught to hate Jews � referring to them as "apes and pigs" � and embrace martyrdom.

Recent broadcasts on Iqraa Television, one of the global satellite channels packaged by the Arab Radio and Television Network (ART), a Saudi-based company, features anti-Semitic interviews with a father, a psychologist and even a 3-year-old girl.

Following is the transcript of an interview with a 3-year-old girl conducted by Muslim Woman Magazine host Doaa 'Amer on Iqraa television:

'Amer: "Our report today will be a little different, because our guest is a girl, a Muslim girl, but a true Muslim. Allah willing, may our God give us the strength to educate our children the same way, so that the next generation will turn out to be true Muslims who understand that they are Muslims and know who their enemies are. This girl will introduce herself immediately.

She is the daughter of my sister in faith and of the artist, Wagdi Al-Arabi. Her name is Basmallah and we will ask her as well."

Toddler: Allah's mercy and blessing upon you.

'Amer: What's your name?

Toddler: Basmallah.

'Amer: Basmallah, how old are you?

Toddler: Three and a half.

'Amer: Are you a Muslim?

Toddler: Yes.

'Amer: Basmallah, are you familiar with the Jews?

Toddler: Yes. '

Amer: Do you like them?

Toddler: No.

'Amer: Why don't you like them?

Toddler: Because . . .

'Amer: Because they are what?

Toddler: They're apes and pigs.

'Amer: Because they are apes and pigs. Who said they are so?

Toddler: Our God.

'Amer: Where did he say this?

Toddler: In the Koran.

'Amer: Right, he said that about them in the Koran. Okay, Basmallah, what are the Jews doing?

Toddler: The Pepsi company.

'Amer: [Approving laughter.] You also know about the boycott, Basmallah? Did they love our master, Muhammad?

Toddler: No.

'Amer: No. What did the Jews do to him?

Toddler: [Pauses, struggling for the right answer.] The Prophet Muhammad killed someone . . .

'Amer: Obviously, our master Muhammad was strong and could have killed them. All right, you know the traditions about the Jews and what they did to the Prophet Muhammad?

Toddler: [Mumbled assent.]

'Amer: Is there a story you know?

Toddler: Yes, the story about the Jewish woman.

'Amer: The Jewish woman? What did she do to our master, the Prophet Muhammad?

Toddler: The Jewish woman?

'Amer: Yes.

Toddler: There was a Jewish woman who invited the Prophet and his friends. When he asked her, "Did you put poison (in my food)?" she said to him, "Yes." he asked her, "Why did you do this?" and she replied, "If you are a liar you will die and Allah will not protect you; if you speak the truth Allah will protect you."

'Amer: And our God protected the Prophet Muhammad, of course.

Toddler: And he said to his friends, "I will kill this lady."

'Amer: Of course, because she put poison in his food, this Jewess.

Toddler: Oh.

'Amer: [Speaking directly into the camera.] Basmallah, Allah be praised, Basmallah, Allah be praised. May our God bless her. No one could wish Allah could give him a more believing girl than she. May Allah bless her and her father and mother. The next generation of children must be true Muslims. We must educate them now while they are still children so that they will be true Muslims.



all opinions and comments welcome.

Elphaba

And your opinion is expected to begin the discussion of your topic.

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Lebell

Agreed.

What is your opinion of the piece?

A link would also be nice.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Nirvana

lol sorry about that. i dont have the link anymore today but im sure if you were to just copy n paste one of the phrases and google it, you would fine.

the way I feel is that im just not really all that surpised. the area is filled with a long history of resenment. i just feel its disgusting to teach a child of three years so much hate. if it starts that young, who knows how much worse the nest 15 years will be.

Xazy

Like this is new? This is old news, and has been an issue for my entire adult life.

maximusveritas

Yeah, this specific incident is from 2002, but this has been going on for much longer than that. Now, we just get to see it for ourselves here in America, so some people are shocked by it. It's sad to see kids get brainwashed like that.
This is what we're talking about when we say that this war will not be won with bombs alone. Nowadays, these people are probably brainwashing their kids into saying Americans are apes and pigs. That's not going to change just by having democracy. In fact, it might get worse.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55321,00.html

Cynthetiq

it's well known already that racism is learned and taught doesn't matter if they are kids or adults, people are taught or learn to hate other people

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filtherton

This shouldn't be so shocking. There is a large portion of american history that couldn't have happened were it not for the indoctrination of masses of people about the inhumanity and savageness of certain classes of people. I think such behavior is common in the human animal.

Nirvana

has anyone here been brought up in a home where their elders have tried to teach hate. in my personal experience, not really. no one tried to teach me to hate anyone or anything. but when it came to things like dating, they prefered it if it was with my "people" but even there they didnt really care too much.

Ustwo

I love the backhanded condemnation of the US you can work into a thread about teaching a 3 year old to hate and murder in the name of Allah.

Thats quite a gift you have there.

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Jinn

There's a difference in a "condemnation of the US" and saying "we all do it.."

Any comment that makes the US look bad isn't automatically unpatriotic, good sir..

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filtherton

Someday i might even be as proficient as you. I'd have to be able to somehow work an insinuation of socialism as mental disorder into a post about how all the people who don't agree with me are just so unreasonable.

Since when does acknowledging the fact that u.s. history is filled with just as many atrocities as anyone else's somehow amount to a condemnation? I live in america. I like it in america. I was just trying to point out, to anyone with a simple mind, that all humans are capable of being stupid fucking assholes. Yes, ustwo, that even means americans.

smooth

I've already backed out of this thread twice before, but now that more reponses are in I might as well write what's been on my mind since the first time I read the piece:

I can easily replace any of the above references to a deity with God or Jesus and I see similar shit taught to children every sunday in christian churches.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Yeah sure, but the action is not as prolific. Nor is it as rampant as in the Islamic world, such as the fact that there are several Sharian regimes which not only promote, but actively fund, support, and reward action. Again action being the key word. It is sad when you might find a few communities or churches that may or may not be fucked up, but even admitting that it is no where near the level it is in the Islamic world, which is measured by entire countries.

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powerclown

Yes, but the OP wasn't talking about American history.

Out of all the societies in the world, I wonder what motivated you to threadjack bring up the atrocities of American history?

smooth

MPP,

What exactly are you referring to?
No where in that passage is there anything about the young girl growing up and killing Jews herself.

Whether they are heathens, Jews, or even people of other denominations, christians certainly do teach as a general rule that those non-believers are worthy of damnation and subject to god's wrath. That they are unclean, reprobate, and/or "pigs." This belief is taught in every church I've ever been in and I'm hard pressed to think of one that wouldn't since such teachings are perfectly aligned with much of what the bible says about people outside the believers' community.

The lightest condemnation would be in the form of believing, suggesting, or outright stating that such people aren't going to have a decent afterlife.

And I certainly hope you aren't measuring an entire nation's beliefs and actions based on those of its unelected, despotic tyrants' deeds.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Ustwo

Sorry Filthy but moral relativism doesn't wash here. You just wanted to say 'well the US did bad stuff too ya know!' which is an interesting way to excuse such behavior in the muslim world right now.

I'm sure it lets you comfortably ignore it when you give your tacit support for regimes like Saddam's Iraq or Iran, since, you see, we are just as bad.

Because no one expects the French to fight for a free world

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Jinn

You seem to be seeing things in black and white-- STILL. There is a difference between seeing that we do to it too and providing "tacit support." Why do you fail to accept this difference? Is everything so black and white that you cannot dissent without providing support for the opposition? It sure isnt in my world. Islamic teachers are hating on Jews.. yea.. well Christian teachers do it.

If there's any message here, its that MOST religions teach hate.

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Ustwo

Because my young friend this is happening NOW, people are dying NOW, and they are going to continue to die. This isn't about religion, its about power and its about murder.

To look for peace in the mideast the leftwing way of toothless negotiation is only going to fail when the governments allow/force the children to be taught to hate and murder as part of their very society.

And now many of the left think we shouldn't prevent Iran from getting nuclear arms?

I'd rather not RELY on prayer for our salvation, thanks.

Fight this (and other) wars on OUR terms now or their terms later. You can’t negotiate with people who teach their children the joy of martyrdom.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Yeah, but not at a national level. BTW it's really weak when people cut and paste excerpts for documents which in this case are thousands of years old, putting them out of any descernable context (including the Koran).

My religion doesn't teach hate. Having gone to mass just about every sunday for 20 years, having gone to parochial schools k-12, I was never indoctrinated with any seblence of hate. Again in the Christian faith, I'm sure you'll find many people who are a few hamburgers short of a happy meal, but I have no delusions saying it is 100x times more prevelant in Islam. Islam is at the head of entire countries, spewing and indoctrinating hate, whereas Christianity is not, teaching hate against Jews and the West.

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smooth

Oh, were we comparing mainstream christianity to mainstream islam?

because I thought we were making an analogous comparison between fundamentalist islam to fundamentalist christianity...apples to apples and all that...

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hiredgun

My thoughts:

I think we should remember that the fact that this particular child is television-worthy probably indicates that she is at least something of an exception. At the same time, I am duly aware that hardcore anti-Semitism remains a huge problem in many parts of the Muslim world.

From my personal travel and experiences, I find this indoctrination to take its most extreme forms in the rich Gulf countries, where the process of state-formation has been warped by dynastic rule (enabled by a single highly valuable resource) and stunted by foreign intervention in this strategically vital region. The other place where I have witnessed numbingly blind hatred was in the West Bank (although I should stress that this point of view was far from universal there). In Egypt, on the other hand, while anti-Israeli sentiment in the sense of political opposition to Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories remains high, and while politically charged propaganda to this end is readily available and visible in the form of literature, I have very rarely seen a hatred of Jews as such.

I will agree with filtherton's assessment that every society, including post-modern, urban, Western society is premised on a host of assumptions and biases that become a part of our identity. At the same time, there is a qualitative difference between our own biases in favor of Western or American values - whatever those may be - and the willful deemphasis of critical thinking in Gulf education. In part this is an attempt by rulers to pre-empt the rise of any dissent. In addition, the specific promulgation of anti-Semitism and the promotion of a strong Islamic identity boosts the rulers' ability to legitimize themselves as defenders of Islam against perceived Western or Zionist encroachment.

To end on a caveat, these ideas are intended by way of explanation, not apology. I agree that the indoctrination of children with these sorts of views is both morally reprehensible and highly dangerous. What I am more uncomfortable with is the blame laid on an entire society or civilization for processes over which ordinary people have little control.

Ustwo

I could show you a photo montage of what palastinans do to their children, but we can't show pictures of children at all on TFP. Its not just the rich gulf countries.

It may make you uncomfortable but that doesn't change it. Islamic civilization becomes more backward, more hate filled, and more dangerous to Western Cvilization everyday.

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filtherton

Moral relativism? This from someone who seemingly justifies bush's failures by comparing them to clinton's? From someone who curses the terrorists inhumanity and then at the very least tacitly supports the use of torture? Did i really seek to excuse such behavior? Do me a favor and point out where exactly i did so. If you read what i originally posted, you would see that i said that i think such behavior is common in the human animal. I didn't seek to justify anything. Despite what you may think, just because america has done something, doesn't mean it's justified. What i was trying to point out is that the actions of individuals within a group reflect more on those individuals than on the group as a whole.

Are we really at a point where i need to actually come out and say that i personally believe that indoctrinating children with hatred is wrong? Because if that's the case, then i might wonder why you, ustwo, believe that it's okay to rape puppies? I only ask this because you have never actually claimed that you didn't believe that it was okay to rape puppies, so i just don't know.

Why is this thread relevant? Because we are currently at war with a certain subset of arabs. If this were a story about any other group, say perhaps christians, no one would care, because hey, people are fucked up and do shit like this all the time. The fact that all different groups of humans are prone to such behavior means that the fact that the perpetrators in this instance are muslim is a nonissue. This isn't a function of my opinion as much as it is a function of the context of human behavior that i sought to provide.

If someone starts a thread about reprehensible behavior that focuses solely on one specific group that is currently engaging in such behavior even though there are many groups who currently engage in such behavior then it could be argued that the basis for the thread is a display of some form (maybe unintentional) discrimination. My goal was to point out that americans are no strangers to such behavior, and then i went on to say that SUCH BEHAVIOR IS COMMON IN THE HUMAN ANIMAL, not just in arabs. The "american example" is a writing tool that's sometimes called an "attention getter". It is used to get the attention of your audience; make them want to read the rest of what you wrote. I assumed that since many of the people who would read this would be of the "america shits solid 24k gold while shooting a steaming load of freedom all over the dirty face of tyranny" variety that it would get their attention. The assumption is that they will then read the rest of what you wrote too, but i guess sometimes that isn't the case.

Don't tell me about tacit support. Saddam and Iraq had the at certain points the tacit and explicit support of our government and line toers such as yourself long before i was even in junior high school. I "supported" hussein and support iran in the same way that people like you "support" the deaths of american soldiers.

Feel free now to not respond to anything i posted, or respond to a sentence or two that i posted, and then complain about how everyone who disagrees with you is so unreasonable.

Perhaps i was concerned with the only natural course this thread could have taken without any kind of context, namely "A-rabs are bad" Followed by "No they're not all bad" followed by "but obviously that actions of these arabs means that they're all bad" followed by "nope" then "yep" then "nope" then "nobody listens to me because all of my arguments are chiseled out of a stone made of pure reason and everyone else is just unwilling to listen to my tautaologies", etc.

If you read the rest of what i wrote, i clearly stated that i think that all humans are capable of such behavior. I used americans as an example, i could have used britain, certain african countries, the kkk, hitler, many forms of organized religion, etc. If all you got out of what i wrote was the fact that i cited america as an example, well, you should stop pretending that you're the only one here who likes being an american.

hiredgun

Yes, I mentioned the West Bank as a place where this kind of indoctrination exists (as I'm sure there is in Gaza, though I haven't been there myself). I am certain that there are other pockets of this extremism as well.

For one, I don't agree with Huntington's idea that these 'civilizational' boundaries are valid ways to look at our world today. But putting that aside: more importantly, to say that "Islamic civilization" is becoming " more backward and hate filled" every day is simply and demonstrably false. Even among the Gulf countries, whose regimes I am staunchly against, some progress is being made, the recent granting of suffrage to women in Kuwait and the establishment of the franchise in Saudi Arabia being prominent examples. Egypt has undergone significant liberalization; while the recent, imperfect rounds of multi-party presidential and then parliamentary elections are a small example, more significant are the substantial developments in freedom of the press and freedom of expression, which I have seen firsthand.

By way of example: currently there is a large camp of Sudanese refugees occupying a public square in Mohandiseen, a bustling part of Cairo. They have been there, camped out in tents and lean-tos, for over a month, protesting near the UNHCR building and demanding better treatment for Sudanese refugees in Egypt. Under Egyptian law (the country has been operating under an 'emergency law' for years) the police could easily have dismantled the protest by force, but the refugees have not been touched. I've been there, and met with them. Even they are surprised at the stance of the authorities.

My point is that while "Islamic civilization" may be perceived as 'backwards' by Western standards, to say that it is becoming more backwards is simply false.

The idea that Muslims are hate-filled (which is implied by your propostion that "Islamic civilization" is somehow hate-filled, and becoming more so on a daily basis) is also a gross misperception. As I said, I've been to the West Bank, and as an American I was treated with nothing but hospitality, as was my friend and fellow traveler, an American Jew, of all things. During my stay here in Egypt, I have spoken with Egyptians of all stripes (well-off, poor, educated, illiterate, urban, rural) about the West, and while the majority have issues with what they perceive as Western policy (examples: the unfairness of the war in Iraq; the dangers of unilateralism and america's role as the world's policeman; the torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib) no one's views have approached anything close to "hate" of the West. No one has condoned terrorism, though many have drawn moral equivalency between terrorist attacks and what they percieve as American 'warmongering', while solidly condemning both. Whether or not these political views are logically valid is beside the point: telling their children to blow themselves up has been the last thing on anyone's mind. I have spent time in Pakistan, which is internationally famous for its "madrasas", mostly Saudi-funded. These schools certainly exist and I won't deny that they are problematic, but the majority of Pakistanis do not receive an extremist education and are not religious extremists in their outlook.

Consider the massive demonstrations in Amman the day after the recent hotel bombings. Does Jordanian society appear to you to be violent and hate-filled, or supportive of terrorism? Indeed, if it were the case, why would al-Qaeda target parts of "Islamic civilization" in the first place? The global Islamic terrorist phenomenon is fundamentally an anti-state movement. It may be a movement populated by adherents of a particular faith, but it does not represent Islam nor "Islamic civilization".

My point in conveying these personal experiences is that what you perceive as a "hate filled Islamic civilization" only represents a small minority of Muslims living in the Muslim world, and your idea that these two 'civilizations' are at war with one another is a misunderstanding that might have tragic consequences.

kutulu

It's sad that people are taught to hate but don't kid yourself into thinking that Islamic extremists have the market cornered in this line of thinking. I've been to Catholic marriages where the priest went on a 15 minute tangent on the evils of homosexuality, we have racists raising their children to believe that black people are worthless, and currently its in style to codemn Mexicans at every opportunity in Arizona.

Think about what's going on here before you lay into the extremists and try to apply those ideals to all Muslims.

matthew330

"I've already backed out of this thread twice before, but now that more reponses are in I might as well write what's been on my mind since the first time I read the piece:

I can easily replace any of the above references to a deity with God or Jesus and I see similar shit taught to children every sunday in christian churches."

To "see shit taught to children every sunday in christian churches" would kinda require being there every sunday, and I kinda doubt that you are. Regardless, this sort of "schooling" should elicit some sort of anger, not justification.

What liberalism has tought you about christianity is as sad as what this 3 year is being indoctrinated with.

Liberalism it seems can't help but justify current atrocities outside of the United States, with past atrocities committed by the United States. The liberal reaction to these crimes are what is curious. Current events invoke sympathy, historical US events invoke hatred that apparently never dies.

"we have racists raising their children to believe that black people are worthless"

...and where do you see this happening, and to what magnitude? It may happen, but not to the degree you suggest. I just don't see it. What I do see is the social implications of what black families teach there children about who white people are and what kind of world they live in, and liberal encouragement of this distorted view.

"in style to codemn Mexicans at every opportunity in Arizona"

The only thing in style is to point the racist finger where it doesn't exist, or at least exaggerate it's prevelance.

"where the priest went on a 15 minute tangent on the evils of homosexuality"

How long have you been waiting to pull that out of your ass to make a point. Are you Catholic? Have you been to alot of catholic masses, or are you just that comfortable promoting a "racist" view, if you will, of catholicism based off on one experience. I grew up in the catholic church. It's no surprise they don't support homosexuality, but teaching hatred in the church just doesn't happen.

The OP was disturbing, and the gift with which liberals can convulate that fact and point the figure right back to themselves is impressive. It's also why they're not in office. It's also why no matter what GW does (or doesn't do), pales in comparison to what you do to yourselves.

filtherton

I think that someone indoctrinated matthew with an irrational hatred of liberalism when he was just a lad.

smooth

Who are you to doubt whether I go to church regularly?
Despite your insinuation, however, my current attendance rate is irrelevant to what I wrote.

I grew up in an Anglican church, and was an acoloyte until I was 14.
I left my family's church at 14 when I became caught up with one of the largest sects of christian fundamentalism. I know first hand the prideful, personal gratification of knowing more scriptural "truth" than lukewarm, once-a-week christians. I thought my shit didn't stink for a good 2 or 3 years. I suspect you can relate and the way you responded indicates you haven't grown out of that immature stage yet.

I'm married to a previous member of the most consertavitve branch of Lutheranism, a pastor's daughter, in fact. She used to be a member of the christian coaltion. I've helped her overcome a heap of psychological damage from being held captive to the passive-hatred christian conservatives pile on themselves and others.

Given our past, we both know a thing or two about being close-minded, religious fanatics.

While I don't adhere to an organized religion anymore, mainly because they are often filled with people like yourself who judge others based on their own prejudices and fears, I support my wife in the things she finds fulfilling. Consequently, despite what you think, both of us attend a Missouri synod church weekly.

Despite your and many other TFP members' sanctimonious attitudes, conservatives do not have a monopoly on religious affiliation or attendance. You quoted me days after I posted just to insult me. I have no respect for religious hypocrites, which is actually more mild than Messiah thinks on the subject. Consider youself warned--you may feel safe personally insutling someone with differing political views than you...but internet anonymity doesn't hide or protect you from his judgement.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

matthew330

Bad day smooth?

It was the first time I read this thread, and I quoted you to make this point: "this sort of "schooling" should elicit some sort of anger, not justification" by pointing your finger at the christian church.

"Consider youself warned--you may feel safe personally insutling someone with differing political views than you...but internet anonymity doesn't hide or protect you from his judgement."

WTF? You've got some thin fuckin skin.

Lebell

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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matthew330

Not to mention I just watched UFC last night, boy better watch himself.

filtherton

Can somebody point me to anywhere where anyone was actually justifying such behavior?