George Bush's intelligence... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

albania · 10-10-2005, 04:26 PM

This isn't meant to start a flame war, and since I’m a newbie i wouldn't want this to be my first impression. However, many people at least here in a blue state seem to believe that Bush is not smart, that is to say dumb. My opinion is that Bush is smart just not a very good speaker, I mean he does have a degree from Yale, and he did well in his SATs. I guess what I’m trying to get at is, what is the importance of a leader that can speak well and/or is smart? Can surrounding yourself with smart people be just as good as having a good leader? In my opinion it is what's missing in the presidency, there have been so many chances for greatness in this administration but I believe they have been wasted by a President that doesn't have the natural leadership skills that transcend party lines, I think that rhetorical skills are very important in that respect. Anyway, I would be interested to know what others think.

P.S. if this has already come up I’m sorry, I tried searching but inputting "George Bush Not Smart" gave something like 500 hits from the ones I saw they didn't seem like the topic I was thinking about.

Lebell · 10-10-2005, 04:52 PM

Note of Warning:

If this thread degenerates into silly name calling, it will be closed and depending on the degree, possible warnings issued.

You veterans know exactly what kind of behavior I am talking about.

If you can actually make a coherent thread worth reading, then go for it.

Hardknock · 10-10-2005, 05:28 PM

Why is it that all the Bush threads get warnings??

I haven't seen any serious childish name calling yet. But I don't monitor this site 24/7 like the mods do so I can't really say.

matthew330 · 10-10-2005, 07:22 PM

Seriously I think you should add an option. I'm actually surprised 4 people at this point have voted "he's a genious." I tend to think those responses may have just been in jest.

To be fair, the polar opposite should have been included. Something to the effect of "He may well be the the most retarted person on the face of the planet." I think you'd have many more responses to the poll, and have better insight into how the participants of this thread think. A simple "he's a person of below average intelligence", I think may be somewhat too benign for most who "dislike" President Bush to bother with. 3 positive options for Bush's inelligence for what probably amounts to 7-8 Bush supporters on this board.

I do think it's a good question, but just to encourage the "other side" there should be 3-4 neg. options including:

"He's so dumb,I want him dead - and I want to kill him myself"

"Osama's really grown on me in the last couple of years, I think I might like him a lil bit, he seems like a smart guy, relatively speaking"

things to that effect.

As a Bush supporter, I'm going with he's got at least average intelligence, but he doesn't always look like the sharpest tool in the box whilst speaking in public. A fact exploited by his opponents (as it should be - not a great quality in a president).

pig · 10-10-2005, 07:38 PM

I personally think that Bush is either not very smart at all, or else has used a very interesting political tactic in making himself appealing to a lot of Americans. It is extremely difficult for me to imagine someone growing up in a house with that much money, a father who was involved with the cia, attending yale (and harvard) who speaks that poorly. It really blows my mind. I occasionally wonder whether he essentially speaks "in dialect" so that "average" people aren't intimidated by him. It's one of the top things I hear Bush supporters say "He sounds genuine. He sounds like a regular person. So what if he's not a great orator."

I personally think that it is a very important skill, one that he either lacks or intentionally eschews, and I think it's a major drawback of his. We are supposedly in the middle of a cultural war, a war of democracy and liberty facing the tyrany of a backasswards quasi-middle ages extremist opposition. I think it is very important that the leader of the country be able to articulately express these ideals we are fighting for. I personally feel shortchanged.

The scariest thought to me is when I consider the notion that he really may be all the things I fear: silver spoon elitist spoiled kid grown into an arrogant deluded fundamentalist/imperialist who made it where he is more by $$$ and family connections than merit.

Lebell · 10-10-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardknock

Why is it that all the Bush threads get warnings??

I haven't seen any serious childish name calling yet. But I don't monitor this site 24/7 like the mods do so I can't really say.

If you think it's only "Bush threads" that get warnings like this, then you haven't been paying attention.

maximusveritas · 10-10-2005, 08:30 PM

Overall, I think Bush is about average when compared to the general population, but below average when compared to other modern Presidents.
I think we all know why Bush got into Yale and it wasn't because he was a genius. His SAT score of 1206 was better than the average American, but well below the average Yale student. Of course, the average American probably didn't attend prep school at Phillips Academy.

He majored in History and graduated with a 2.35 GPA. That's not exactly top of the class, but somehow (again, probably not because he was a genius), he got accepted into Harvard Business School.

Of course, that proves very little about his lack of intelligence, which is a hard term to define, much less measure. I think more telling than his lack of academic qualifications is his lack of intellectual curiosity. He just happened to be the son of a future President and that helped propel him to where he is now. I don't think there are too many people who believe George W. Bush would be President were it not for that.

I actually think Bush is a pretty good communicator when it comes to dealing with the people around him. He's not bad at giving speeches when he has to either. He's just not very good when answering questions or doing debates. His failure in that respect is more significant in my opinion than any of his rhetorical missteps.

pig · 10-10-2005, 08:33 PM

Ok, someone just sent this to me. Twilight Zone spooky.

/not really.

Uncle Pony · 10-10-2005, 08:48 PM

I think he's relatively intelligent, and the way he speaks is a political tactic. I also think it worked; after all, it got him elected twice. Both Gore and Kerry sounded like elitist snobs when speaking and I think it turned off a lot of Americans come voting time.

RangerDick · 10-10-2005, 08:51 PM

This is an example of what I DIDN'T want.

Seaver · 10-10-2005, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Quote removed - lebell

Wasnt the first reply to this a warning about NOT doing that?

irateplatypus · 10-11-2005, 04:07 AM

by a number of objective measures (with the exception of speech patterns), the only logical conclusion is that Bush possesses an above-average intelligence. for myself, i believe that Bush is capable of learning to speak well... but simply chooses not to.

for example, both he and his father both say "nukuler" in place of "nuclear". it simply takes a single reminder to inform anyone that they've pronounced the word wrong, but both Bush's continually say the word in error on the world stage. it's either a calculated tactic or something they choose to ignore.

Rekna · 10-11-2005, 05:26 AM

How do you get a 2.35 at yale? Honestly yale, harvard, and other big ivy league schools are leading the nation in grade inflation. They hand out 4.0s to everyone.

To get a 4.0 at one of these places you need money and influence to get in and an average intelligence.

Poppinjay · 10-11-2005, 05:33 AM

I voted average intelligence. He has one rare trait. He picks his friends. This is both bad and good. It's mostly served him well, with some glaring exceptions. Personally, I would have voted for a lactating wombat over Bush, both times. But I think we're better off with Bush than Kerry.

albania · 10-11-2005, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

To be fair, the polar opposite should have been included. Something to the effect of "He may well be the the most retarted person on the face of the planet." I think you'd have many more responses to the poll, and have better insight into how the participants of this thread think. A simple "he's a person of below average intelligence", I think may be somewhat too benign for most who "dislike" President Bush to bother with. 3 positive options for Bush's inelligence for what probably amounts to 7-8 Bush supporters on this board.

I was thinking about that but I decided to include only one joke option that I thought would satisfy the issue, it's slanted towards he is genius because if I slanted it the other way there might as well not be a poll, I know that many people vehemently hate(loath?) Bush and anyone that wasn't serious about discussing it would simply skew the poll to render it meaningless. Although, I wouldn't go so far as to say that this poll is definitive or even the best poll that could have been made.
Anyway, to the point on hand it wouldn't seem logical at all that if Bush could learn to speak well he wouldn't. I think that Bush like some people just isn't good at giving really big speeches especially ones that are televised, although I have heard from many people that he is supposed to be pretty good in person, don't know if that is true.
As to the idea that George Bush is doing it to sound like a regular person, again that doesn't make sense to me. How could you not want someone who is great at speaking in the white house? I mean what possible advantage could speaking badly have over someone who can actually pronounce words, and get his point across clearly. Is this truly what most people believe, that we need an average Joe president or one that seems like he is? I thought good and great presidents were the ones that inspired, not the ones that confused people by their speeches. If I want anyone to run the country it wouldn't be someone who I believe is average, I want the best qualified and most apt, isn’t this what other people want as well?

Charlatan · 10-11-2005, 06:12 AM

He's either just smart enough or of average intelligence. This is not a slight on the man. Who ever said you had to be a genius or really smart to be President of the USA?

As Poppinjay points out, the man is well connected. THIS is what it takes to get into power.

Redlemon · 10-11-2005, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pigglet

I occasionally wonder whether he essentially speaks "in dialect" so that "average" people aren't intimidated by him. It's one of the top things I hear Bush supporters say "He sounds genuine. He sounds like a regular person. So what if he's not a great orator."

I can't find any documentation right now, but IIRC, Bush intentionally developed a Texas accent and the speaking rhythms. Again, I recall that he did this after losing his first political race? You certainly don't pick that accent up in Maine or at Yale.

raveneye · 10-11-2005, 06:58 AM

If Bush had been just any guy, from an average middle class family, I think he probably would have risen about to the level of a Wal Mart manager. Or something equivalent. But not much farther. That assumes that his alcoholism didn't get in the way, and it probably would have.

Ustwo · 10-11-2005, 07:55 AM

By default, democrats think all republican presidents are stupid, about the only one they give any credit to, ironically, is Nixon.

I think of it as substance over style. Talking a good game does not make one smart, but style seems to be highest on the democrat criteria list. You would think that Kerry was a straight A student the way democrats speak of Bush's GPA at the same school, but it turns out they were pretty much both average students. Kerry presented himself as more than he was, and that was enough for people of average intelligence to think he was 'smart'.

I don't want leaders who are good politicians, I want leaders who get the job done.

So please keep thinking that Bush is below average, it makes it easier.

Paq · 10-11-2005, 07:56 AM

I honestly voted average for the fact that he can handle all of the menial tasks that a president has to go through, but can't really fathom larger issues or at least view them from another perspective. He, or his father, does have te ability to pick his friends and i think that's been good for him, just not good for everyone else on the planet.

And yeah, i don't think i've ever heard of someone getting below a 3.0 at Yale, smart or not.

Jinn · 10-11-2005, 10:28 AM

I do not believe that acting "common" is indeed a strategy of George Bush, although we'd likely all agree that feigning intelligence is much more difficult than feigning ignorance.

That said, I do think that the previous election (since its been discussed previously) was not as directly influenced by Bush's percieved lack of intelligence as it should have been.

Communication and percieved intelligence are one of the most important metrics I have for someone I wish to represent me, as well as lead me. I have never and will never feel comfortable being in a subservient role to someone with less percieved intelligence than me. Likewise, I think this is indicative in the nearly 50/50 split that Bush and Kerry enjoyed. While some prioritize action above communication, some prioritize communication over action. It is more clearly emphasized in comments like "Bush is an idiot" or "Kerry would sit there and talk about it for an hour..", responding respectively to their percieved traits.

Why have I consistently used "percieved intelligence" in place of intelligence? The answer is simple -- intelligence, as I see it, is simply a measurement of how much knowledge you have. An intelligent person can recount facts and details with little to no effort. They've studied many areas, and they're experts or near experts in a variety of disciplines.

What then, is "percieved intelligence"? Percieved intelligence is one of the most important characteristics I believe a person can have, and it is the sum of actual intelligence with communication ability. After all, what use is that intelligence if you cannot effectively share it with your peers? It is of VERY little use.

Coming from a Quality Assurance background, I can offer tons of personal experience with what happens with communication breaks down. It is the glue of our society and our industry, and without it we dissolve into strife and conflict. In my field, programmers are often understandly upset when they program a solution based on a Project Requirement and it is met with "this isn't right!" The problem, however, was the specification -- it was ambigious or unclear and it lead them to reach false conclusions about the purpose of the software. This failure in communication leads to CONFLICT. The process benefits most when more time is spent in communication before an action is started.

This is true in every aspect of life, including one of the most imporant - intimate relationships. If the communication fails, or there is misunderstanding -- it can lead to massive conflicts and even dissolution of the relationship. Again, effective communication BEFORE action can often resolve the issue before it becomes problematic. Therefore, I put a large degree of importance on our ability to communicate with other humans.

What does this mean for Bush? He might be a very intelligent individual, and I believe he has at least average intelligence in order to garner the support he does indeed have. His percieved intelligence? Very far below average.

Why should Bush's overall intelligence be unfairly linked to his communication skills? Because it is everything that an intelligent effectie leader needs. If he can clearly tell underlings and peers what his desires are, how he plans to achieve them, and how they can help -- he becomes far less dominating and much more understanding. Any failure in this communication, via ambiguity or simply incorrect language, appears to be less intelligent. Any other self respecting leader will similarly discount his opinion because he appears to be less intelligent. This causes problems domestically as well as overseas. Anyone who can have a 365 day calendar created of his speech blunders does not deserve to be our communcation liason with the rest of the world.

Why did I vote for Kerry and mark "below average intelligence?" Simply put, I'd rather have a leader capable of discussion before action than action before discussion. I've seen the latter situation dissolve into conflict, where the former resolves into compromise.

Poppinjay · 10-11-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

By default, democrats think all republican presidents are stupid, about the only one they give any credit to, ironically, is Nixon.

as opposed to the love republicans have for democrats...

I believe the terms Newt Gingrich instructed GOP house members to use were, "sick", "perverted", and my favorite, "evil".

Conservatives spend an enormous amount of time hating. Sam Brownback (R-Kansas) got caught up in it and actually manned up about it. He apologized for his part in the legal lynching of Clinton, and said he was too involved in a "culture of hate" that developed. I have to respect him for that even though he is far from my ideology.

Jinn · 10-11-2005, 10:41 AM

^^ Honestly? What was that, other than an attack on Republicans?

frogza · 10-11-2005, 11:01 AM

I voted smart but doesn't come across as such. To become president you at least need drive, that isn't a quality that is commonly found with people of below average intelligence.

Poppinjay · 10-11-2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

^^ Honestly? What was that, other than an attack on Republicans?

If that was an attack, it was with a nerf billyclub. I can only hope that I'm attacked in a similar manner, if ever.

I used a quote from an extremely conservative republican where he admitted he was not living correctly because he got caught up in what he described as a "culture of hate". That culture consisted of conservatives.

How was this an attack on republicans?

Jinn · 10-11-2005, 11:18 AM

How was it relevant?

Poppinjay · 10-11-2005, 11:25 AM

It was in response to the post that ustwo believes ALL democrats think ALL republicans are stupid.

Whereas CONSERVATIVES portray all democrats as evil and in conflict with America.

Now for a real attack on a republican: George Bush Jr. would place a five dollar whore in the cabinet if she were his friend. Probably FEMA.

Ustwo · 10-11-2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

It was in response to the post that ustwo believes ALL democrats think ALL republicans are stupid.

Whereas CONSERVATIVES portray all democrats as evil and in conflict with America.

Now for a real attack on a republican: George Bush Jr. would place a five dollar whore in the cabinet if she were his friend. Probably FEMA.

Perhaps you should follow your sig, I smell yellow text on its way.

Poppinjay · 10-11-2005, 11:33 AM

If it happens it happens.

I'll be sure not to commend any conservatives for doing the right thing again.

albania · 10-11-2005, 11:47 AM

Please let's stick to the topic at hand, this thread shouldn't degenerate to Republicans Vs Democrats.
Anywhoo, that being said, i believe Jinnkai's post echoes my feelings as well. What do people think? What is your view on the rhetorical skills that a president should have?

powerclown · 10-11-2005, 12:23 PM

i'm a dorker

pan6467 · 10-11-2005, 12:47 PM

As for Bush's intelligence, I don't know how to vote.

I think he has coasted through life and has never had any true challenges. I believe he's above average but that he doesn't use or perhaps know how to use it, he would rather have people do his thinking for him.

And I think that is his biggest problem, he has surrounded himself with "yes men" and people who blow smoke up his ass while being corrupt and using their influence on him to get what they want.

But I also think he's not as dumb or as blind as the press or his "yes men" seem to believe. I just think he feels as long as he isn't involved or nothing can be pinned on him he'll be okay. I think his blind loyalty and devotion, while being great qualities for a friend, impair his judgement to do the best job possible.

So, I guess my vote would have to be intelligent but somewhat out of touch with some issues and just wanting to coast through life believing he doesn't have to work.

Elphaba · 10-11-2005, 01:26 PM

Excellent topic, Albania, and I also agree with Jinnkai's assessment. I find it interesting that Kerry and Bush went to Yale and both had mediocre grades, so we might assume that they are of equal intelligence. The perceived intelligence of each in their first debate would never have suggested that. Kerry was communicating clearly, whereas Bush struggled throughout the debate.

pan6467 · 10-11-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Excellent topic, Albania, and I also agree with Jinnkai's assessment. I find it interesting that Kerry and Bush went to Yale and both had mediocre grades, so we might assume that they are of equal intelligence. The perceived intelligence of each in their first debate would never have suggested that. Kerry was communicating clearly, whereas Bush struggled throughout the debate.

Grades and having similar GPA's mean nothing. Kerry could have taken far heavier courses, not saying that in fact is what happened just saying it is a possibility as is Bush taking harder courses than Kerry.

My 8th grade English teacher told me once when she saw me doing just enough to get C's..... "The measure of a man and his intelligence is not what he has, but how he uses it. The man who may not have it, yet works hard is by far truly the more intelligent man then the man who has intelligence, yet coasts through life expecting his intelligence to get him through."

It took me many years to realize exactly what she meant, but I can see the latter in Bush and the former in Kerry, but that is just my opinion comparing the 2. Not that my opinion or the comparison of the 2 matter.

Elphaba · 10-11-2005, 01:49 PM

Pan, I agree that grades reveal little about a person by themselves. I was just following JinnKae's distinction between "intelligence" and "perceived intelligence", in my usual lazy manner.

docbungle · 10-11-2005, 03:36 PM

Well, I think Bush makes a fool out of himself in public a lot. Of course, if I were being filmed 24 hours a day, I probably would, too. That wouldn't make me stupid. Follow anyone around with a camera and you'll see some stupid shit. But a camera shouldn't make you forget how to speak.

I think he tries too hard when publicly speaking. It makes him look like an idiot. He does it pretty consistently. Stagefright? I have no idea. But he's not stupid.

pan6467 · 10-11-2005, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Pan, I agree that grades reveal little about a person by themselves. I was just following JinnKae's distinction between "intelligence" and "perceived intelligence", in my usual lazy manner.

That's cool I knew.

BTW that English teacher used to say if I kept just doing the minimal I'd be a floating protoplasm through life..... she was my favorite teacher, she was the first to push me in a productive way to do better, to be the best I could be.

Elphaba · 10-11-2005, 04:10 PM

"Floating Protoplasm" just has to be made into a sig line, somehow.

You instructor sounds like she is a credit to her field.

Sorry for the aside, folks.

flstf · 10-11-2005, 04:35 PM

I believe GW to be of average intelligence with above average political skills. Smart enough to realize (or take other's advice) that elections are popularity contests and position himself as the most likeable candidate compared to those running against him. The same skills that Reagan and Clinton used so well against their opponents.

I would guess that his IQ is higher than Reagan's and lower than Clinton's and his communication skills somewhat less than Clinton's and way less than Reagan's.

Ustwo · 10-11-2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

I would guess that his IQ is higher than Reagan's and lower than Clinton's and his communication skills somewhat less than Clinton's and way less than Reagan's.

Bush smarter than Reagan?

I'd recomend this before you make the perception of the left your reality http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074...83155&v=glance .

"And that is the reason why this book is so important. It provides a key to unlocking the mystery of Reagan that has baffled so many for so long. How could a man of supposedly limited knowledge and limited intelligence accomplish so much? How did he get elected and reelected governor of our largest state? How did he get elected and reelected president of the United States? How did he preside over a time of unprecedented prosperity, the winning of the cold war, and the demise of communism worldwide? How?"

"Well, maybe he was a lot smarter than most people thought." -Reagan's Secretary of State, George Shultz

View Poll Results: What is your opinion on George Bush's Intelligence?
He is a genius the idea that he is dumb is perpetuated by a liberal media bias	6	6.19%
He is smart	3	3.09%
He is smart but doesn't come across as such in speeches	22	22.68%
He is a person of average intelligence	38	39.18%
He is a person of below average intelligence	28	28.87%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

10-10-2005, 04:26 PM	#1 (permalink)
albania Psycho	George Bush's intelligence... This isn't meant to start a flame war, and since I’m a newbie i wouldn't want this to be my first impression. However, many people at least here in a blue state seem to believe that Bush is not smart, that is to say dumb. My opinion is that Bush is smart just not a very good speaker, I mean he does have a degree from Yale, and he did well in his SATs. I guess what I’m trying to get at is, what is the importance of a leader that can speak well and/or is smart? Can surrounding yourself with smart people be just as good as having a good leader? In my opinion it is what's missing in the presidency, there have been so many chances for greatness in this administration but I believe they have been wasted by a President that doesn't have the natural leadership skills that transcend party lines, I think that rhetorical skills are very important in that respect. Anyway, I would be interested to know what others think. P.S. if this has already come up I’m sorry, I tried searching but inputting "George Bush Not Smart" gave something like 500 hits from the ones I saw they didn't seem like the topic I was thinking about.

10-10-2005, 04:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Note of Warning: If this thread degenerates into silly name calling, it will be closed and depending on the degree, possible warnings issued. You veterans know exactly what kind of behavior I am talking about. If you can actually make a coherent thread worth reading, then go for it. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

10-10-2005, 07:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	Seriously I think you should add an option. I'm actually surprised 4 people at this point have voted "he's a genious." I tend to think those responses may have just been in jest. To be fair, the polar opposite should have been included. Something to the effect of "He may well be the the most retarted person on the face of the planet." I think you'd have many more responses to the poll, and have better insight into how the participants of this thread think. A simple "he's a person of below average intelligence", I think may be somewhat too benign for most who "dislike" President Bush to bother with. 3 positive options for Bush's inelligence for what probably amounts to 7-8 Bush supporters on this board. I do think it's a good question, but just to encourage the "other side" there should be 3-4 neg. options including: "He's so dumb,I want him dead - and I want to kill him myself" "Osama's really grown on me in the last couple of years, I think I might like him a lil bit, he seems like a smart guy, relatively speaking" things to that effect. As a Bush supporter, I'm going with he's got at least average intelligence, but he doesn't always look like the sharpest tool in the box whilst speaking in public. A fact exploited by his opponents (as it should be - not a great quality in a president). Last edited by matthew330; 10-10-2005 at 07:25 PM..

10-10-2005, 07:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	I personally think that Bush is either not very smart at all, or else has used a very interesting political tactic in making himself appealing to a lot of Americans. It is extremely difficult for me to imagine someone growing up in a house with that much money, a father who was involved with the cia, attending yale (and harvard) who speaks that poorly. It really blows my mind. I occasionally wonder whether he essentially speaks "in dialect" so that "average" people aren't intimidated by him. It's one of the top things I hear Bush supporters say "He sounds genuine. He sounds like a regular person. So what if he's not a great orator." I personally think that it is a very important skill, one that he either lacks or intentionally eschews, and I think it's a major drawback of his. We are supposedly in the middle of a cultural war, a war of democracy and liberty facing the tyrany of a backasswards quasi-middle ages extremist opposition. I think it is very important that the leader of the country be able to articulately express these ideals we are fighting for. I personally feel shortchanged. The scariest thought to me is when I consider the notion that he really may be all the things I fear: silver spoon elitist spoiled kid grown into an arrogant deluded fundamentalist/imperialist who made it where he is more by $$$ and family connections than merit. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

10-10-2005, 05:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
Hardknock Republican slayer Location: WA	Why is it that all the Bush threads get warnings?? I haven't seen any serious childish name calling yet. But I don't monitor this site 24/7 like the mods do so I can't really say.

10-10-2005, 08:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	Overall, I think Bush is about average when compared to the general population, but below average when compared to other modern Presidents. I think we all know why Bush got into Yale and it wasn't because he was a genius. His SAT score of 1206 was better than the average American, but well below the average Yale student. Of course, the average American probably didn't attend prep school at Phillips Academy. He majored in History and graduated with a 2.35 GPA. That's not exactly top of the class, but somehow (again, probably not because he was a genius), he got accepted into Harvard Business School. Of course, that proves very little about his lack of intelligence, which is a hard term to define, much less measure. I think more telling than his lack of academic qualifications is his lack of intellectual curiosity. He just happened to be the son of a future President and that helped propel him to where he is now. I don't think there are too many people who believe George W. Bush would be President were it not for that. I actually think Bush is a pretty good communicator when it comes to dealing with the people around him. He's not bad at giving speeches when he has to either. He's just not very good when answering questions or doing debates. His failure in that respect is more significant in my opinion than any of his rhetorical missteps.

10-10-2005, 08:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Ok, someone just sent this to me. Twilight Zone spooky. /not really. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

10-10-2005, 08:48 PM	#9 (permalink)
Uncle Pony Crazy	I think he's relatively intelligent, and the way he speaks is a political tactic. I also think it worked; after all, it got him elected twice. Both Gore and Kerry sounded like elitist snobs when speaking and I think it turned off a lot of Americans come voting time.

10-10-2005, 08:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
RangerDick Loser Location: manhattan	This is an example of what I DIDN'T want. Last edited by Lebell; 10-11-2005 at 05:59 AM..

10-11-2005, 04:07 AM	#12 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	by a number of objective measures (with the exception of speech patterns), the only logical conclusion is that Bush possesses an above-average intelligence. for myself, i believe that Bush is capable of learning to speak well... but simply chooses not to. for example, both he and his father both say "nukuler" in place of "nuclear". it simply takes a single reminder to inform anyone that they've pronounced the word wrong, but both Bush's continually say the word in error on the world stage. it's either a calculated tactic or something they choose to ignore. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

10-11-2005, 05:26 AM	#13 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	How do you get a 2.35 at yale? Honestly yale, harvard, and other big ivy league schools are leading the nation in grade inflation. They hand out 4.0s to everyone. To get a 4.0 at one of these places you need money and influence to get in and an average intelligence.

10-11-2005, 05:33 AM	#14 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I voted average intelligence. He has one rare trait. He picks his friends. This is both bad and good. It's mostly served him well, with some glaring exceptions. Personally, I would have voted for a lactating wombat over Bush, both times. But I think we're better off with Bush than Kerry. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-11-2005, 06:12 AM	#16 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	He's either just smart enough or of average intelligence. This is not a slight on the man. Who ever said you had to be a genius or really smart to be President of the USA? As Poppinjay points out, the man is well connected. THIS is what it takes to get into power. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-11-2005, 06:58 AM	#18 (permalink)
raveneye Born Against	If Bush had been just any guy, from an average middle class family, I think he probably would have risen about to the level of a Wal Mart manager. Or something equivalent. But not much farther. That assumes that his alcoholism didn't get in the way, and it probably would have.

10-11-2005, 07:55 AM	#19 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	By default, democrats think all republican presidents are stupid, about the only one they give any credit to, ironically, is Nixon. I think of it as substance over style. Talking a good game does not make one smart, but style seems to be highest on the democrat criteria list. You would think that Kerry was a straight A student the way democrats speak of Bush's GPA at the same school, but it turns out they were pretty much both average students. Kerry presented himself as more than he was, and that was enough for people of average intelligence to think he was 'smart'. I don't want leaders who are good politicians, I want leaders who get the job done. So please keep thinking that Bush is below average, it makes it easier. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-11-2005, 07:56 AM	#20 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	I honestly voted average for the fact that he can handle all of the menial tasks that a president has to go through, but can't really fathom larger issues or at least view them from another perspective. He, or his father, does have te ability to pick his friends and i think that's been good for him, just not good for everyone else on the planet. And yeah, i don't think i've ever heard of someone getting below a 3.0 at Yale, smart or not. __________________ Live. Chris

10-11-2005, 10:28 AM	#21 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I do not believe that acting "common" is indeed a strategy of George Bush, although we'd likely all agree that feigning intelligence is much more difficult than feigning ignorance. That said, I do think that the previous election (since its been discussed previously) was not as directly influenced by Bush's percieved lack of intelligence as it should have been. Communication and percieved intelligence are one of the most important metrics I have for someone I wish to represent me, as well as lead me. I have never and will never feel comfortable being in a subservient role to someone with less percieved intelligence than me. Likewise, I think this is indicative in the nearly 50/50 split that Bush and Kerry enjoyed. While some prioritize action above communication, some prioritize communication over action. It is more clearly emphasized in comments like "Bush is an idiot" or "Kerry would sit there and talk about it for an hour..", responding respectively to their percieved traits. Why have I consistently used "percieved intelligence" in place of intelligence? The answer is simple -- intelligence, as I see it, is simply a measurement of how much knowledge you have. An intelligent person can recount facts and details with little to no effort. They've studied many areas, and they're experts or near experts in a variety of disciplines. What then, is "percieved intelligence"? Percieved intelligence is one of the most important characteristics I believe a person can have, and it is the sum of actual intelligence with communication ability. After all, what use is that intelligence if you cannot effectively share it with your peers? It is of VERY little use. Coming from a Quality Assurance background, I can offer tons of personal experience with what happens with communication breaks down. It is the glue of our society and our industry, and without it we dissolve into strife and conflict. In my field, programmers are often understandly upset when they program a solution based on a Project Requirement and it is met with "this isn't right!" The problem, however, was the specification -- it was ambigious or unclear and it lead them to reach false conclusions about the purpose of the software. This failure in communication leads to CONFLICT. The process benefits most when more time is spent in communication before an action is started. This is true in every aspect of life, including one of the most imporant - intimate relationships. If the communication fails, or there is misunderstanding -- it can lead to massive conflicts and even dissolution of the relationship. Again, effective communication BEFORE action can often resolve the issue before it becomes problematic. Therefore, I put a large degree of importance on our ability to communicate with other humans. What does this mean for Bush? He might be a very intelligent individual, and I believe he has at least average intelligence in order to garner the support he does indeed have. His percieved intelligence? Very far below average. Why should Bush's overall intelligence be unfairly linked to his communication skills? Because it is everything that an intelligent effectie leader needs. If he can clearly tell underlings and peers what his desires are, how he plans to achieve them, and how they can help -- he becomes far less dominating and much more understanding. Any failure in this communication, via ambiguity or simply incorrect language, appears to be less intelligent. Any other self respecting leader will similarly discount his opinion because he appears to be less intelligent. This causes problems domestically as well as overseas. Anyone who can have a 365 day calendar created of his speech blunders does not deserve to be our communcation liason with the rest of the world. Why did I vote for Kerry and mark "below average intelligence?" Simply put, I'd rather have a leader capable of discussion before action than action before discussion. I've seen the latter situation dissolve into conflict, where the former resolves into compromise. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 10-11-2005 at 10:31 AM..

10-11-2005, 10:41 AM	#23 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	^^ Honestly? What was that, other than an attack on Republicans? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

10-11-2005, 11:01 AM	#24 (permalink)
frogza Registered User Location: Right Here	I voted smart but doesn't come across as such. To become president you at least need drive, that isn't a quality that is commonly found with people of below average intelligence.

10-11-2005, 11:18 AM	#26 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	How was it relevant? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

10-11-2005, 11:25 AM	#27 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	It was in response to the post that ustwo believes ALL democrats think ALL republicans are stupid. Whereas CONSERVATIVES portray all democrats as evil and in conflict with America. Now for a real attack on a republican: George Bush Jr. would place a five dollar whore in the cabinet if she were his friend. Probably FEMA. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-11-2005, 11:33 AM	#29 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	If it happens it happens. I'll be sure not to commend any conservatives for doing the right thing again. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-11-2005, 11:47 AM	#30 (permalink)
albania Psycho	Please let's stick to the topic at hand, this thread shouldn't degenerate to Republicans Vs Democrats. Anywhoo, that being said, i believe Jinnkai's post echoes my feelings as well. What do people think? What is your view on the rhetorical skills that a president should have?

10-11-2005, 12:23 PM	#31 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	i'm a dorker Last edited by Hanxter; 10-11-2005 at 01:08 PM..

10-11-2005, 12:47 PM	#32 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	As for Bush's intelligence, I don't know how to vote. I think he has coasted through life and has never had any true challenges. I believe he's above average but that he doesn't use or perhaps know how to use it, he would rather have people do his thinking for him. And I think that is his biggest problem, he has surrounded himself with "yes men" and people who blow smoke up his ass while being corrupt and using their influence on him to get what they want. But I also think he's not as dumb or as blind as the press or his "yes men" seem to believe. I just think he feels as long as he isn't involved or nothing can be pinned on him he'll be okay. I think his blind loyalty and devotion, while being great qualities for a friend, impair his judgement to do the best job possible. So, I guess my vote would have to be intelligent but somewhat out of touch with some issues and just wanting to coast through life believing he doesn't have to work. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 10-11-2005 at 01:16 PM.. Reason: the problem was corrected, great work mods

10-11-2005, 01:26 PM	#33 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Excellent topic, Albania, and I also agree with Jinnkai's assessment. I find it interesting that Kerry and Bush went to Yale and both had mediocre grades, so we might assume that they are of equal intelligence. The perceived intelligence of each in their first debate would never have suggested that. Kerry was communicating clearly, whereas Bush struggled throughout the debate.

10-11-2005, 01:49 PM	#35 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Pan, I agree that grades reveal little about a person by themselves. I was just following JinnKae's distinction between "intelligence" and "perceived intelligence", in my usual lazy manner.

10-11-2005, 03:36 PM	#36 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	Well, I think Bush makes a fool out of himself in public a lot. Of course, if I were being filmed 24 hours a day, I probably would, too. That wouldn't make me stupid. Follow anyone around with a camera and you'll see some stupid shit. But a camera shouldn't make you forget how to speak. I think he tries too hard when publicly speaking. It makes him look like an idiot. He does it pretty consistently. Stagefright? I have no idea. But he's not stupid. __________________ Bad Luck City

10-11-2005, 04:10 PM	#38 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	"Floating Protoplasm" just has to be made into a sig line, somehow. You instructor sounds like she is a credit to her field. Sorry for the aside, folks.

10-11-2005, 04:35 PM	#39 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I believe GW to be of average intelligence with above average political skills. Smart enough to realize (or take other's advice) that elections are popularity contests and position himself as the most likeable candidate compared to those running against him. The same skills that Reagan and Clinton used so well against their opponents. I would guess that his IQ is higher than Reagan's and lower than Clinton's and his communication skills somewhat less than Clinton's and way less than Reagan's.