Religion and Graduation - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Liquor Dealer · 05-31-2003, 07:21 AM

I don't know if this really happened or not but I thought it was interesting. I got this in my e-mail this morning from one of my liquor distributors. Just thought I'd pass it on and see what you all think. Not trying to start another diatribe on religion - just the way this was done.

THE SNEEZE..............this is GREAT!!!!!!!!!!

They walked in tandem, each of the ninety-three students filing into the already crowded auditorium.

With rich maroon gowns flowing and the traditional caps, they looked almost as grown up as they felt.

Dads swallowed hard behind broad smiles, and moms freely brushed away tears.

This class would not pray during the commencements ----- not by choice but because of a recent court ruling prohibiting it. The principal and several students were careful to stay within the guidelines allowed by the ruling.

They gave inspirational and challenging speeches, but no one mentioned divine guidance and no one asked for blessings on the graduates or their families.

The speeches were nice, but they were routine.......until the final
speech.

A solitary student walked proudly to the microphone. He stood still
and silent for just a moment, and then he delivered his speech. An
astounding -- SNEEZE!

The rest of the students rose immediately to their feet, and in unison they said, "GOD BLESS YOU."

The audience exploded into applause. The graduating class found a unique way to invoke God's blessing on their future with or without the court's approval

Slims · 05-31-2003, 08:45 AM

ok, I guess that's fair, but if they want to pray, can't they just do it quietly and keep it to themselves? Why the need pray vocally and publically, esp. when lots of other people don't want to have to hear it?

SecretMethod70 · 05-31-2003, 08:56 AM

The same reason people who don't believe in a god are allowed to continuously remind those that do about their difference in opinion.

I don't want to have to hear people in public whom I don't agree with, yet I do. No skin off my back.

If someone wants to say something in public - be it prayer, protest, whatever - they have every right to do so. That's not even an issue with schools. The only issue with school's and prayer is SCHOOL SANCTIONED prayer. There never has been and never should be any sort of law in place which says it's wrong for students (or anyone else for that matter) to choose to gather, even in a public place, and pray.

50% of Americans were against the war in Iraq, yet they were allowed to publicly gather and make their views known, even though other people (a whole other 50%!) didn't want to hear it.

Contrast that to this - *75%* of Americans believe in a god and a large majority of those are Christian, yet you think that because only *25%* of people don't want to hear it they should be muzzled from being heard in public?

Doesn't make sense to me.

The_Dude · 05-31-2003, 11:39 AM

ok,i just graduated yesterday, and here is my experience.

we had THREE prayers during graduation.

they had one before the ceremony, just for students, then one on stage, and a benediction.

i thought this iwas fucknig shit, they were using school property to promote religion. i'm an atheist and i didnt lower my head or say "amen" after the prayers, but i did take my cap off (didnt wanna look odd).

the sad part is, the kids didnt write the prayers, the school adminstrators wrote the prayers for them, and printed them out and handed it to the people reading it.

i was REALLY pissed of about this, cant believe they did this.

The_Dude · 05-31-2003, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecretMethod70

50% of Americans were against the war in Iraq, yet they were allowed to publicly gather and make their views known, even though other people (a whole other 50%!) didn't want to hear it.

hold up there, the first ammendment guarentees us the right to do that that.

remember, the MAIN reason that the bill of rights was written was to prevent majorities from going too far, aka to protect minority view points and opinions.

Quote:

Contrast that to this - *75%* of Americans believe in a god and a large majority of those are Christian, yet you think that because only *25%* of people don't want to hear it they should be muzzled from being heard in public?

- this is using government property (the school property, the PA system, the stage, and whatever else) to spread word or to communicate a particular religion. this is just what the 1st was supposed to do, prevent govt from ENDORSING religion.

if you wanna have a ceremony in a private place, feel free to do whatever you want, pray as much as you like, none of my business.

but dont use government property to endorse a particular religion

SecretMethod70 · 05-31-2003, 12:17 PM

As for your graduation ceremony, I agree. The teachers can't be writing prayers for the graduation ceremony, etc. There's no question about that. However, if a student is chosen to give a speech, it is that STUDENT'S speech. Last I checked, school's don't automatically endorse everything a student says - wouldn't that be a sorry state of affairs if we could sue schools because of the actions of a person who happened to be a student there. So, if a student is chosen to make a speech at the graduation (say they're the valedictorian) there's no violation of the seperation of church and state if they choose to say a prayer in their speech.

As for the first amendment giving you that right, you've certainly opened a can of worms here.

Quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

In other words, it also gives students the right to choose to pray when and where they please. The students are not agents of the government and are not subject to being required to censor their own religious thought. Teachers, sure, but students, no.

Not to mention that all the first amendment says is that congress can't make a law in support of or against a religion. One could argue (and I'm playing deil's advocate here) that there is nothing there to say that prayer shouldn't be allowed in school so long as there is no law specifically for or against it.

BBtB · 05-31-2003, 12:26 PM

hah. I just find this amusing namely because two local high schools (ATLEAST there may be more but these are the ones I know) had there graduation cermonys on campus at a local christian college. I just found it ironic (and these were not little bitty high schools either. I am talking two of the biggest ones in the area and one is one of the biggest in the state)

The_Dude · 05-31-2003, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecretMethod70
As for your graduation ceremony, I agree. The teachers can't be writing prayers for the graduation ceremony, etc. There's no question about that. However, if a student is chosen to give a speech, it is that STUDENT'S speech. Last I checked, school's don't automatically endorse everything a student says - wouldn't that be a sorry state of affairs if we could sue schools because of the actions of a person who happened to be a student there. So, if a student is chosen to make a speech at the graduation (say they're the valedictorian) there's no violation of the seperation of church and state if they choose to say a prayer in their speech.

As for the first amendment giving you that right, you've certainly opened a can of worms here.

In other words, it also gives students the right to choose to pray when and where they please. The students are not agents of the government and are not subject to being required to censor their own religious thought. Teachers, sure, but students, no.

Not to mention that all the first amendment says is that congress can't make a law in support of or against a religion. One could argue (and I'm playing deil's advocate here) that there is nothing there to say that prayer shouldn't be allowed in school so long as there is no law specifically for or against it.

the mixing of religion w/ valedictory and saludictory address is a fuzzy area.

in my school, we had a PRAYER, it was called a PRAYER. (EDIT: this was called invocation)they said, would everyone please rise for the PRAYER and gentlemen remove your hats.

and it the end, it was a bendiction, also a PRAYER, did the same thing then too.

before the ceremony, same case.

yes, i think that valid...& salud.... should be able to say whatever they want over it, but no way you should have a PRAYER

Liquor Dealer · 05-31-2003, 03:15 PM

We have freedom of and freedom from religion. It is a shame we don't have freedom fromtotally liberal pussy judges like the one in California that ruled against the Pledge of Allegiance. Religion in schools bounces from one extreme to another - my wife teaches 5th. grade. They could not have a Halloween Party at school this year because the local holy roller Mexican church was opposed. The some go to other extreme and refuse to stand for the National Anthem of do the Pledge to the flag because they are deemed to have religious significance.

The_Dude · 05-31-2003, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquor Dealer
We have freedom of and freedom from religion. It is a shame we don't have freedom fromtotally liberal pussy judges like the one in California that ruled against the Pledge of Allegiance. Religion in schools bounces from one extreme to another - my wife teaches 5th. grade. They could not have a Halloween Party at school this year because the local holy roller Mexican church was opposed. The some go to other extreme and refuse to stand for the National Anthem of do the Pledge to the flag because they are deemed to have religious significance.

i say the pledge, but skip out on the "under god" part.

Liquor Dealer · 05-31-2003, 03:35 PM

Man I can understand perfectly where you're coming from - Damn! Person do something like that'd probably go straight to jail and not get to pass go or collect $ 200 or anything. Painful!

snowy · 05-31-2003, 03:43 PM

Uhhh...isn't this why we have baccalaureate before graduation? So people can do the religious thing on their own time and at their own choice?

To me, the inclusion of prayer at graduation is just foisting your faith on to someone else. The purpose of the Constitution is to protect the minority, so that everyone is free to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By allowing prayer at graduation, you are not protecting the minority, and are in fact violating their right to freedom of religion by giving them no choice but to listen.

mystmarimatt · 05-31-2003, 04:05 PM

It's basically a touchy subject, either way, at any ceremony, you'll piss somebody off if you touch religion (and those who are angered when you don't) but in the whole, saying a few cliche lines about God isn't going to make a difference 20 years down the road, when you've fogotten what the hell your graduation speech was about anyway, so why bother?

Simple_Min · 06-01-2003, 05:11 AM

I would like to see an non christian (in other words a minority) religion speech and see that "cheering" croud's reaction. Most would not do anything out of respect, much like The_Dude, but toss out "respect" and you have opression of freedom of speech.

My point is if a school is going to allow time for "God" speech, allow time for "Gods" speech and "Non God(s)" speech. Sigh. I personally don't really care anymore but I have this feeling that this polytheist or atheist student feels very intimidated just as much as a monotheist feels when the Pledge of Allegeince is ruled unconstitutional. My rant is that religion is a *personal* thing, and it should not become so commercialized and thrust into politics. What good does the phrase "in god we trust" do, for example. Those who trust in god did so even before it was printed on the paper.

4thTimeLucky · 06-01-2003, 05:33 AM

In the UK my graduation speech had no prayers. Yet here we have a state religion. Odd.

We do have to stand for grace before formal hall meals, but that is because of my old university has a love of tradition. Because only a couple of people actually understand what is being said it makes it quite clear that the prayer is kept for tradition rather than for reasons of promoting religion.

Simple_Min · 06-01-2003, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4thTimeLucky
In the UK my graduation speech had no prayers. Yet here we have a state religion. Odd.

We do have to stand for grace before formal hall meals, but that is because of my old university has a love of tradition. Because only a couple of people actually understand what is being said it makes it quite clear that the prayer is kept for tradition rather than for reasons of promoting religion.

That's what I hear from my friends too...most of Europe (and Canada) has realized that religion and politics are two things.
Can I seek asylum from religious fanatics there?

4thTimeLucky · 06-01-2003, 06:04 AM

You'd be asked to lay bare every aspect of your life. You'd be given food vouchers. You'd be put up in some run down seaside hotel and told to wait for months or years before being given a deicision by a cold bureaucracy. You'd be spat at, insulted, humiliated and treated like a third class citizen. Skin heads would assault you and politicians would try and move you out of their neighbourhood. Even if you were to be accepted as a citizen, you'd only find your wishes ignored by a government that looks more like a part of the US State Department than an autonomous entity. Oh, and it rains. A lot.

Have you considered Sweden?

Daval · 06-02-2003, 10:09 AM

I think this was rather clever actually.

I have no problems if a student decided to invoke a prayer in his or her own speech. The school should stay neutral though.

duckduck · 06-03-2003, 11:04 PM

We had a prayer or two at my first high school graduation here in Canada, but my high school was different that most.

I can't remember if we had a prayer at my second high school graduation. I only arrived half way through it and don't remember much of it.

But I'm a very special case when it comes to Canada, high school, and graduations so don't base all high school graduations in Canada off me

05-31-2003, 07:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Religion and Graduation I don't know if this really happened or not but I thought it was interesting. I got this in my e-mail this morning from one of my liquor distributors. Just thought I'd pass it on and see what you all think. Not trying to start another diatribe on religion - just the way this was done. THE SNEEZE..............this is GREAT!!!!!!!!!! They walked in tandem, each of the ninety-three students filing into the already crowded auditorium. With rich maroon gowns flowing and the traditional caps, they looked almost as grown up as they felt. Dads swallowed hard behind broad smiles, and moms freely brushed away tears. This class would not pray during the commencements ----- not by choice but because of a recent court ruling prohibiting it. The principal and several students were careful to stay within the guidelines allowed by the ruling. They gave inspirational and challenging speeches, but no one mentioned divine guidance and no one asked for blessings on the graduates or their families. The speeches were nice, but they were routine.......until the final speech. A solitary student walked proudly to the microphone. He stood still and silent for just a moment, and then he delivered his speech. An astounding -- SNEEZE! The rest of the students rose immediately to their feet, and in unison they said, "GOD BLESS YOU." The audience exploded into applause. The graduating class found a unique way to invoke God's blessing on their future with or without the court's approval __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

05-31-2003, 08:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	ok, I guess that's fair, but if they want to pray, can't they just do it quietly and keep it to themselves? Why the need pray vocally and publically, esp. when lots of other people don't want to have to hear it? __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

05-31-2003, 08:56 AM	#3 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	The same reason people who don't believe in a god are allowed to continuously remind those that do about their difference in opinion. I don't want to have to hear people in public whom I don't agree with, yet I do. No skin off my back. If someone wants to say something in public - be it prayer, protest, whatever - they have every right to do so. That's not even an issue with schools. The only issue with school's and prayer is SCHOOL SANCTIONED prayer. There never has been and never should be any sort of law in place which says it's wrong for students (or anyone else for that matter) to choose to gather, even in a public place, and pray. 50% of Americans were against the war in Iraq, yet they were allowed to publicly gather and make their views known, even though other people (a whole other 50%!) didn't want to hear it. Contrast that to this - 75% of Americans believe in a god and a large majority of those are Christian, yet you think that because only 25% of people don't want to hear it they should be muzzled from being heard in public? Doesn't make sense to me. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

05-31-2003, 11:39 AM	#4 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	ok,i just graduated yesterday, and here is my experience. we had THREE prayers during graduation. they had one before the ceremony, just for students, then one on stage, and a benediction. i thought this iwas fucknig shit, they were using school property to promote religion. i'm an atheist and i didnt lower my head or say "amen" after the prayers, but i did take my cap off (didnt wanna look odd). the sad part is, the kids didnt write the prayers, the school adminstrators wrote the prayers for them, and printed them out and handed it to the people reading it. i was REALLY pissed of about this, cant believe they did this. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

05-31-2003, 12:26 PM	#7 (permalink)
BBtB ClerkMan! Location: Tulsa, Ok.	hah. I just find this amusing namely because two local high schools (ATLEAST there may be more but these are the ones I know) had there graduation cermonys on campus at a local christian college. I just found it ironic (and these were not little bitty high schools either. I am talking two of the biggest ones in the area and one is one of the biggest in the state) __________________ Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ... "I would like about three fiddy"

05-31-2003, 03:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	We have freedom of and freedom from religion. It is a shame we don't have freedom fromtotally liberal pussy judges like the one in California that ruled against the Pledge of Allegiance. Religion in schools bounces from one extreme to another - my wife teaches 5th. grade. They could not have a Halloween Party at school this year because the local holy roller Mexican church was opposed. The some go to other extreme and refuse to stand for the National Anthem of do the Pledge to the flag because they are deemed to have religious significance. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

05-31-2003, 03:35 PM	#11 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Man I can understand perfectly where you're coming from - Damn! Person do something like that'd probably go straight to jail and not get to pass go or collect $ 200 or anything. Painful! __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

05-31-2003, 03:43 PM	#12 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Uhhh...isn't this why we have baccalaureate before graduation? So people can do the religious thing on their own time and at their own choice? To me, the inclusion of prayer at graduation is just foisting your faith on to someone else. The purpose of the Constitution is to protect the minority, so that everyone is free to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. By allowing prayer at graduation, you are not protecting the minority, and are in fact violating their right to freedom of religion by giving them no choice but to listen. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

05-31-2003, 04:05 PM	#13 (permalink)
mystmarimatt Omnipotent Ruler Of The Tiny Universe In My Mind Location: Oreegawn	It's basically a touchy subject, either way, at any ceremony, you'll piss somebody off if you touch religion (and those who are angered when you don't) but in the whole, saying a few cliche lines about God isn't going to make a difference 20 years down the road, when you've fogotten what the hell your graduation speech was about anyway, so why bother? __________________ Words of Wisdom: If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane. Last edited by mystmarimatt; 05-31-2003 at 04:15 PM..

06-01-2003, 05:11 AM	#14 (permalink)
Simple_Min Insane Location: The Local Group	I would like to see an non christian (in other words a minority) religion speech and see that "cheering" croud's reaction. Most would not do anything out of respect, much like The_Dude, but toss out "respect" and you have opression of freedom of speech. My point is if a school is going to allow time for "God" speech, allow time for "Gods" speech and "Non God(s)" speech. Sigh. I personally don't really care anymore but I have this feeling that this polytheist or atheist student feels very intimidated just as much as a monotheist feels when the Pledge of Allegeince is ruled unconstitutional. My rant is that religion is a personal thing, and it should not become so commercialized and thrust into politics. What good does the phrase "in god we trust" do, for example. Those who trust in god did so even before it was printed on the paper. __________________ If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.

06-01-2003, 05:33 AM	#15 (permalink)
4thTimeLucky Psycho Location: 4th has left the building - goodbye folks	In the UK my graduation speech had no prayers. Yet here we have a state religion. Odd. We do have to stand for grace before formal hall meals, but that is because of my old university has a love of tradition. Because only a couple of people actually understand what is being said it makes it quite clear that the prayer is kept for tradition rather than for reasons of promoting religion. __________________ I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless!

06-01-2003, 06:04 AM	#17 (permalink)
4thTimeLucky Psycho Location: 4th has left the building - goodbye folks	You'd be asked to lay bare every aspect of your life. You'd be given food vouchers. You'd be put up in some run down seaside hotel and told to wait for months or years before being given a deicision by a cold bureaucracy. You'd be spat at, insulted, humiliated and treated like a third class citizen. Skin heads would assault you and politicians would try and move you out of their neighbourhood. Even if you were to be accepted as a citizen, you'd only find your wishes ignored by a government that looks more like a part of the US State Department than an autonomous entity. Oh, and it rains. A lot. Have you considered Sweden? __________________ I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless!

06-02-2003, 10:09 AM	#18 (permalink)
Daval Junkie Location: The True North Strong and Free!	I think this was rather clever actually. I have no problems if a student decided to invoke a prayer in his or her own speech. The school should stay neutral though. __________________ "It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it." Winston Churchill

06-03-2003, 11:04 PM	#19 (permalink)
duckduck Psycho Location: Where hockey pucks run rampant	We had a prayer or two at my first high school graduation here in Canada, but my high school was different that most. I can't remember if we had a prayer at my second high school graduation. I only arrived half way through it and don't remember much of it. But I'm a very special case when it comes to Canada, high school, and graduations so don't base all high school graduations in Canada off me __________________ Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way!