Charlatan

It looks like another nation has joined the growing number of nations legalizing same-sex marriages.

To be honest, I never expected Spain (despite having a left leaning government in power) to bring this law into effect. The power of the Catholic Church in Spain is, as always, quite strong.

So that makes four nations... who's next?

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samcol

Hopefully not the US.

JustJess

samcol - was that useful or did it contribute to the discussion? No.

I'm not sure of the other countries that have passed laws so far, but I can imagine Holland being one of them.

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roachboy

framed as an equal protectionmatter, i cant see how legal spaces within which the notion of equal protection is central could not recognize same sex marraiges.

what is strange is not that spain, for example, recognized same sex marriages, but rather that the americans have such trouble with it.

mostly i think because the issue was reframed by far right evangelicals on thoroughly absurd grounds--as a wedge issue, as a legitimation of homophobia, as an index of how right ideology in general works--and most importantly because framed the other way, the question of extending the benefits of the legal/secular institution of marriage to same sex couples is almost impossible to oppose.

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Paq

Seriously, if spain, the almost 90% catholic church controlled SPAIN, can legalize it, why, oh why, do americans have a problem with it...

another question i had last night: What if a married gay couple immigrated to the US? would we annul the marriage?

I'm seriously curious how we would view other legally binding married couples coming into this country

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Charlatan

American couples are coming to Canada to get married. I would assume that the US states they come from will not acknowledge their legal union. I await the first legal challenges that will arise from these situations.


For clarity, Belgium, Holland, Canada and Spain are the four nations.


The US will come around on this issue as will most of the planet. It will just take time. When people see that it isn't the end of the world and that *gasp* it doesn't mean the end of heterosexual marriage, the mainstream will come around on this.

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Ustwo

90% catholic church controlled??

The catholic church in Spain is 100% against this measure, and has issued a statement of sorts where they ask public officals not to perform the ceremonies even if it gets them fired. A modern martyr if you will.

Obviously Spain is NOT church controlled.

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Paq

i misworded, spain isn't church controlled, but it is definitely church influenced last i checked sorry for the miswording

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Pacifier

for even more clarity





(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same_sex_marriage)

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f6twister

I still find it sad that so many Americans are fighting this. The people who demonstrate and fight for their freedoms need to fight for all of their rights to choose, not just for gun control & against a national id system.

I don't believe I was put on Earth to decide who can love each other and who should get married and I don't believe anyone else was either. That is between the two adults involved, whatever their gender may be.

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alansmithee

There are many people who disagree with gay marriage. Their reasons are just as valid as those of people who favor gay marriage.

roachboy

i would have thought "judge not lest you be judged" took care of most of those "reasons" to oppose same-sex unions.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Paq

honestly, i care about society and the direction it is heading, and i care about traditions and cultures, etc, but i don't see what the harm is from letting two loving people into a legally binding contract. I just don't see how that can lead to the downfall of society. Heck, i'm seeing great moneymaking ideas here, especially when you consider the influx of money into a wedding industry that could sorely use it

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JustJess

alansmithee - I don't dismiss other people's feelings on same-sex marriage. If you don't agree with it, that's lovely, that's your business. I just don't see the point in forcing your views on everyone else. I don't expect you to live under my value system, and I don't want to live under yours, either.
Of course your beliefs are every bit as valid!

In an extreme example (and I am NOT calling right-wingers nazis, by the way), Hitler had beliefs that I completely disagree with. I don't care that he held those beliefs, but rather that he imposed them on millions of other people. I just think societal destruction will occur if we try to have everyone live one way and one way only.

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Charlatan

I disagree. I have yet to hear a convincingly valid argument for banning same-sex marriage. So far, all I have heard is:

1) that's not *my* definition so it shouldn't be changed
2) same sex unions don't include procreation so they are invalid
3) God says it's wrong.

Not a single one of these arguments is valid from a legal stand point in a country that has a Charter of Rights and Freedoms (or your local equivalent) or is secular in nature. These are opinions that are valid for an individual but not for a nation to adopt.

In the end, I don't want to have this discussion here. Please take it to one of the many threads where this can be argued ad nauseum.

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snowy

Pacifier, that map is now inaccurate, as gay marriage is legal in all provinces of Canada.

I agree with everyone who has said, if it can happen in Spain, why can't it happen in the United States? The problem is, if we are going to look at this from a human rights perspective, the current administration has already proven via the war in Iraq and treatment of prisoners of war that human rights are not the number one priority. The United States, since the beginning of the Bush administration, has done a horrible job of protecting and/or promoting basic human rights. Our record was not stellar before Bush either, but the last few years has been a marked decline.

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martinguerre

I think there are a million ways to snark back at this wonderfully clipped non-statement statement, chief among them would be to quote anti-miscegenation rhetoric from a few decades ago) so I’ll just ask a question. I will be granted a marriage license not based on anything about me, (I’m over 18, in good health, with the ability to enter in to a contract, etc, etc…) but depending on the person I fall in love with, specifically their gender. When I’m choosing a spouse, or potential spouse…why should I recognize a legitimate state interest in them choosing among those potential mates?

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alansmithee

But allowing gay marriage forces people opposed to homosexuals to have beliefs forced upon them. Someone's views are being forced either way.

But most reasonable people would feel that Hitler's beliefs weren't valid (at least in regards to race relations).

A derrivation of number 2 was argued sucessfully in Florida (and coincided mostly with my personal view). So that invalidates your legal claim, and the fact that a nation can't adopt them. As to not wanting to have this discussion here, you started the discussion. If you did not want discussion, why post the topic on a discussion board?


The point of my initial post was to state my view that this legalization in Spain was not necessarily the good thing that it was pointed out to be, and that many people feel this way, and that these people's views are just as valid, if not more so.

As to what countries are next, I think I remember reading that Great Britain would be voting on the topic. I have a feeling it will pass there as well. I would assume most of Europe will follow suit.

Mephisto2

This is nonesense.

By way of example, the US has freedom of religion. Islam is "legal" in America. Does that mean you are being forced to convert?

I really can't understand how you think that allow others to do something that you don't believe in, "forces" those beliefs on you. It simply doesn't.

Well, no. Not "more so".
But, yes. Equally valid.

So you are, generally speaking, right. Those opposed to it are perfectly entitled to object to the concept of same-sex marriage. They can action said objection by NOT marrying someone of the same sex.

But by banning it, you are imposing your opinions on others. By allowing it, I'm not imposing anything on you.

It may well do. Europe is typically more liberal than the US and the Middle East (!!) in social issues.


Mr Mephisto

alansmithee

When the gov't gives approval for something, they are forcing their beliefs on others. This is the very argument used in many places to counter gov't "support" of religion.



It does, though. If I run a business, I am now legally forced to offer benefits to gay couples.

I have said numerous times before, if they remove the shared benefits, or gov't subsidising of gay marriage, I would not oppose it. I don't care if two people see each other in a hospital, nor do I care who inherits someone's property. Those things have no societal impact of any note.



Why not just say that Europe is more liberal that the US and NAZI GERMANY!!! in social issues?

Mephisto2

I don't really understand this.

So what?

Is your opposition based upon the impact this will have on your bottom line? Or do you oppose it on religious grounds? If the latter, the use of working benefits has no relevance. If the former, then your opposition is simply based upon mercenary self interest.

Why are you opposed to shared benefits?

Huh?

I mentioned the Middle East because it's contemporaneous with current day America. I wasn't trying to link them in any moral way. What has Nazi Germany got to do with anything?

Roll your eyes as much as you want. I think you entirely missed the point I was making (and the humour intended by my inclusion of exclamation points).

Mr Mephisto

martinguerre

An open memo to all persons opposed to gay marriage:

Don't get one.

I really think it's about that simple. The employment issue is a distraction...as a nation we already limit the freedom of employers to funk with the lives of employeers. Civil law regarding discrimination assumes that society gets to decide these things, not individual employers.

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alansmithee

Businesses are ran with "mercenary self interest". That's why they are businesses, and not charities or the gov't.

See above.



If you weren't trying to link them in a moral way, why mention the Middle East at all?

And also, it seems obvious that humor isn't really conveyed well by exclamation points. I used them myself, but you obviously missed the humor I intended as well.

Mephisto2

Heh... Touché!


Mr Mephisto

JustJess

Okay, reasons I personally feel that you're wrong, mr. smithee:
1) As Mr Mephisto said, just because the gov't allows something, doesn't mean you have to take part in it yourself.
2) As for benefits... I'd say that employers will get over it. Many are offering benefits to 'life partners' already - hetero- or homo- in nature. Most employers would love to not have to pay for benefits for anyone, but since they do, they should do so for everyone regardless of who they're married/partnered to. Remember that gay people are still a minority - it's not like your benefits rolls would suddenly be overflowing with extra partners.
3) Having the gov't limit who I can marry is ridiculous. It's my personal business. I wouldn't want them telling me I can't marry a black man (I'm white) or a European or whatever, would I? Of course not. Same difference.
4) Who cares if they don't procreate? They can adopt. And LOTS of hetero couples don't have kids, or adopt, or are unable to physically have kids. They're okay to get married... same difference.

5) I hope that all of Europe adopts these new laws, so the US can feel increasingly ridiculous about not doing so, until we finally see the error of our ways. It's appalling that we have anything in common with such countries' habits as the Middle East, joke or not.

6) Officially lightening up now.

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Charlatan

The benefits issue is a red herring.

Does this mean business owners... "mercenaries of self interest" all... will not be hiring hetero couples because they are a drain on the bottom line? or that they will hire gay single people because they are not a drain on the bottom line?

Like I said, red herring.


As for government subsidy... since when does the government subsidize marriage?

Everything else was well argued by Mephisto (as ususal).

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

EULA

I've been thinking maybe that legalizing gay marriage may destroy the gay population. Just think about it: if it's ok to have homosex, then all the dirty/naughty kinda vapors off. Sex within your gender will be just as "proper" as sex with without.

Conservatives in America need to follow their own logic to its conclusion. Homosexuality is a perversion; making a perversion normal will destroy it.

Ustwo

Based on coversations I've had with gay men, its not a 'naughty' perversion, and some stated they would rather not be gay if they had the choice.

Even if society embraced homosexuality as 100% normal, there would still be homosexuals.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

snowy

In the United States, our tax system is set up so that married couples receive a tax break--though this is tenuous at best because of the fact that the way the IRS calculates taxes is archaic. Women are routinely penalized for working--the system is sexist. So if you're a man making good money, and your wife doesn't work or doesn't make much, you essentially get a tax break. At least that's how I understand it--though it may have changed recently, as Bush has admittedly tweaked with the tax system.

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EULA

NO, YOU'RE WRONG! I REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT! [room starts spinning, faints]

Elphaba

I've had similar conversations, Ustwo. One of my employees was engaged to an intelligent and lovely lady and they were both active in their church. It turns out that he was desparately trying to fit into the societal definition of "normal" when in fact he had always been attracted to men.

He has a new partner now and if Washington ever approves gay marriage, I will dance at his wedding.