Human Rights Violations - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

stan the man · 06-06-2005, 03:25 PM

I came across this on bbcnews.com

China dismisses US Tiananmen call

Chinese authorities have defended their move to use force in 1989
China has dismissed US calls to give a full account of the people who were killed, detained or went missing during pro-democracy protests 16 years ago.

The Foreign Ministry in Beijing said the US should pay more attention to its own human rights violations.

________________________________

What I find interesting is the last sentence.

If that statement has actually been made then China just admited to violations.

Im on the hunt to find that press release.
Any ideas of where to look.

Mephisto2 · 06-06-2005, 05:38 PM

This is not news.

I actually "boycotted" China for many years, cancelling trips and refusing to go there on business several times, due to the Tiananmen Square massacre. It's no surprise that they still deny their wrong-doing.

It's also no surprise that most of the world has moved on and doesn't care anymore.

Public opinion is a fickle thing...

Mr Mephisto

trickyy · 06-06-2005, 05:59 PM

while they're at it, i'd like to know what happened to this guy.

Mephisto2 · 06-06-2005, 06:29 PM

Probably the usual Chinese way.

Bullet to the nape of the neck.
Bill for bullet sent to family.

Welcome to China, "Most Favoured Nation"

Mr Mephisto

stan the man · 06-06-2005, 06:30 PM

no no read the last sentance again

The Foreign Ministry in Beijing said the US should pay more attention to its own human rights violations.

pay more attention to its own

that is the ownership right there

the states will never say they have commited human right violations

to me that last sentence is admission of guilt

am i the only one who would love to hear it from his own mouth

Mephisto2 · 06-06-2005, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stan the man

no no read the last sentance again

The Foreign Ministry in Beijing said the US should pay more attention to its own human rights violations.

pay more attention to its own
that is the ownership right there
the states will never say they have commited human right violations
to me that last sentence is admission of guilt
am i the only one who would love to hear it from his own mouth

A little punctuation wouldn't go astray.

This is no more an admission of guilt than the US ridiculing North Korea or Iran when they criticise American human rights abuses at Guantanamo Bay; of which there are many.

Mr Mephisto

Charlatan · 06-06-2005, 07:20 PM

I agree with Mephisto on this one... this is no admission and it is the same song they've been singing since it all went down years ago.

jorgelito · 06-07-2005, 01:51 AM

Wait, what are you guys referring to? I got a little lost in the posts. The US or China admitting to human rights violations? Between stan, Meph and Charlatan, I am having a little difficulty following the discussion.

Charlatan · 06-07-2005, 05:55 AM

No admission to human rights violations...

The US or people in the west have frequently accused the Chinese government of Human Rights violations... in this case specifically with regards to the use of force during the protests at Tiananmen.

The Chinese government has *always* defended their use of force at Tiananmen.

In this case, the Chinese government is simply saying *before* the US government tries to raise any issues about human rights violations by the Chinese, the US Government should take a look at its own violations (i.e. the US has no moral ground from which to pontificate about alleged violations when they are engaged in human rights violations).

Incosian · 06-07-2005, 07:12 AM

What I find most interesting is how the Chinese government has altered history for their school systems. I visited China for five weeks in the summer of 2004, and remember specifically my tour guide in Beijing's response when someone in my group asked her about what happened on that day in 1989 in Tianamen Square (we were passing through the Square at the time). She replied that there was a student demonstration that was put down peacefully, and without the use of force. When asked about the reports of a 'massacre' or many killings, she simply repeated her claim that it was peaceful, and nobody was harmed in the process. Of course, as a tour guide she technically is a government employee, but she was not more than a year or two out of college, or may have still been enrolled at Beijing University.

Pretty interesting IMHO.

Edit: spelling

kutulu · 06-07-2005, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

In this case, the Chinese government is simply saying *before* the US government tries to raise any issues about human rights violations by the Chinese, the US Government should take a look at its own violations (i.e. the US has no moral ground from which to pontificate about alleged violations when they are engaged in human rights violations).

Although the Chinese government is worse than us, they have a good point.

Charlatan · 06-07-2005, 09:48 AM

Can you actually put a quantitative qualification on Human Rights abuse?

I know you aren't doing this, and don't disagree that China's record is probably worse than the US in this regard... It just struck me as odd when I read it in your post.

Mephisto2 · 06-07-2005, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incosian

Of course, as a tour guide she technically is a government employee, but she was not more than a year or two out of college, or may have still been enrolled at Beijing University.

And maybe she didn't want to end up with a 25 year jail term.

Mr Mephisto

kutulu · 06-07-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

And maybe she didn't want to end up with a 25 year jail term.

Mr Mephisto

Well, if you want to split hairs...

chickentribs · 06-08-2005, 09:36 AM

Anybody else remember Kent State? McCarthyism? Segregation? Japanese Internment? Indentured servitude? Slavery? Native Americans? We have only been around as a country for 230 years and have racked up a consistant list of Human Rights violations that are apalling. It doesn't excuse the Chinese government, but we have no moral ground to stand on at all.

So they do have a point, especially recently.

Charlatan · 06-08-2005, 09:57 AM

chickentribs... I think what people would dispute is the current day human rights abuses... in a China vs. USA situation... China would come out on top from most people's points of view.

If we want to get historical, who does have a leg to stand on morally speaking.

chickentribs · 06-08-2005, 10:34 AM

Yes, but even currently with the Iraq situation, Amnesty International condemning our government on abuses, and our refusal to allow Red Cross or other humanitarian organizations access to the prisoners of war, I don't know that we are in any better shape today.

Charlatan · 06-08-2005, 10:50 AM

I wouldn't necessarily say that the USA *is* any better only that people perceive it to be so...

kutulu · 06-08-2005, 11:34 AM

I don't think it is fair to judge a country based on what happened 100+ years ago.

China is right though, if you go back over the last 50-60 years years you get a LOT of human rights violations. Not just against terrorists, but against law abiding american citizens who never did anything wrong.

chickentribs · 06-08-2005, 12:26 PM

I agree that history is history. I wish that as a true world "leader" we would change our behavior and set examples for the rest of the world to live up to. Simple things like instead of demanding an accounting of bodies from them in front of the world (why?) we help them focus on the emergence of Free Trade and successful business in the country. Look how far they have come, instead of where they were.

I know it sounds a bit pollyanna, but it's also a bit of common sense...

Mephisto2 · 06-09-2005, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickentribs

...we help them focus on the emergence of Free Trade and successful business in the country.

So called "Free Trade" is not all that it's cooked up to be.

It's a basis for globalisation and the exploitation of the Third World by the US and EU (primarily).

Nike sells shoes in the US for over $100. It takes quite a bit less than that for them to produce them in the sweatshops of South East Asia.

Mr Mephisto

chickentribs · 06-09-2005, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

So called "Free Trade" is not all that it's cooked up to be.

It's a basis for globalisation and the exploitation of the Third World by the US and EU (primarily).

Nike sells shoes in the US for over $100. It takes quite a bit less than that for them to produce them in the sweatshops of South East Asia.

Mr Mephisto

yeah, there are starting to be some success stories though, especially in Hong Kong and Shanghai. My hope is that our government would know that insulting and pointing our finger at China on the world stage doesn't do a thing for anybody. Complimenting and showing respect for the efforts that have been made lets them save face while addressing the issue.

Mephisto2 · 06-09-2005, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickentribs

Complimenting and showing respect for the efforts that have been made lets them save face while addressing the issue.

So you are a studen of the "constructive engagement" school, eh?

'tis nothing but a revamped, renamed policy of "appeasement", and we all know where that got us fifty years ago.

But seriously... I'm not sure if "rewarding" China is the best way to go. On the other hand, I'm no fan of the 'chicken-hawk' wing in the current Administration, who seem to prefer provocation and conflict over negotiation and diplomacy. China is a difficult nut to crack...

Mr Mephisto

chickentribs · 06-09-2005, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

So you are a studen of the "constructive engagement" school, eh?
'tis nothing but a revamped, renamed policy of "appeasement", and we all know where that got us fifty years ago.
Mr Mephisto

I must be a lover, not a fighter I guess...

When Nixon is the guy who has developed the best relations with them in the last 50 years, I have to humbly admit I don't know for a second what it will take! They are the rising economic power though - I hope we figure something out.

MSD · 06-10-2005, 08:58 PM

There is no way that a country whose police force has vans equipped with lethal injection equipment that is routinely used on people who commit non-violent crimes is in any position should criticize any other country's human rights abuses, with the possible exception of those that carry out mass executions in stadiums.

Ustwo · 06-10-2005, 09:11 PM

This is one of those 'if only' moments.

There were American generals who thought the right thing to do after the fall of Germany was keep heading to Moscow.

It would have saved 10's of millions of lives in the long run which in retrospect would have been worth the cost. The chinese communists would have fallen as well had we done this.

The failures of communism may have been a great object lesson to the world, but 110 million deaths is a harsh price to pay.

I do hope the growing capitalist spirit in China can transform the government before another massacre takes place.

jorgelito · 06-10-2005, 09:30 PM

Hey guys, should we open up a globalization thread? It seems like a budding discussion.

In regards to human rights, no doubt China is a "violator", as is Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran etc.etc.

I do think that the more "open" China becomes, theres a good chance it will become less prone to violating human rights (IMO). I haven't really constructed any solid argument on this but the basis would be premised on economic consideration, prestige/role as an emerging "leader", and internationalization/education - opening up. In short, as China becomes more and more integrated, it would be in China's own interest to "behave".

Or, on the other hand, China becomes "too" powerful and beligerent, do as it pleases.

jorgelito · 06-10-2005, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

There is no way that a country whose police force has vans equipped with lethal injection equipment that is routinely used on people who commit non-violent crimes is in any position should criticize any other country's human rights abuses, with the possible exception of those that carry out mass executions in stadiums.

I assume you are refering to China? I've never heard this. It sounds really messed up though. Can you give some more details or background info? Who else does this? Thanks.

Elphaba · 06-11-2005, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Hey guys, should we open up a globalization thread? It seems like a budding discussion.

Would that be wise at this time, Jorgelito? You have another paper due on globalization.

Mephisto2 · 06-11-2005, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

It would have saved 10's of millions of lives in the long run which in retrospect would have been worth the cost. The chinese communists would have fallen as well had we done this.

I disagree.

Quote:

I do hope the growing capitalist spirit in China can transform the government before another massacre takes place.

I agree.

Mr Mephisto

Ustwo · 06-12-2005, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

I disagree.

Do you disagree with the cost being worth it, or do you disagree that crushing communism before it started the wholesale murder after WWII would have saved many of the 110 million people murdred in communist nations?

If you say both you must explain

jorgelito · 06-12-2005, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Would that be wise at this time, Jorgelito? You have another paper due on globalization.

Ha! You got me

. Thanks man, I really should getback to it. But I enjoy talking with everyone here too much. I'm actually tempted to post my last paper but I don't know how.

You guys are the best!

Mephisto2 · 06-12-2005, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Do you disagree with the cost being worth it, or do you disagree that crushing communism before it started the wholesale murder after WWII would have saved many of the 110 million people murdred in communist nations?

I disagree that it's a certainty that prolonging WWII, with an invasion of the Soviet Union, would have automatically "saved more lives" than were lost in the past 50 years.

We can all play "what if" games, but I don't think anyone would believe that arm-chair hypotheses are certain predictions of what would have really happened.

Why do you also assume than an extension of WWII would have resulted in the "fall" of Communist China?

I'm just saying that "alternative histories" (of which, by the way, I'm quite a fan) can't be used in any logically grounded argument.

Mr Mephisto

Elphaba · 06-12-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Ha! You got me

. Thanks man, I really should getback to it. But I enjoy talking with everyone here too much. I'm actually tempted to post my last paper but I don't know how.

If you find a way to post your paper, either here or elsewhere, I would like to read it. My understanding of globalization is merely a scratch to the surface.

tecoyah · 06-12-2005, 02:02 PM

I would also be fascinated to read this paper.....if at all possible

Ustwo · 06-12-2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

I disagree that it's a certainty that prolonging WWII, with an invasion of the Soviet Union, would have automatically "saved more lives" than were lost in the past 50 years.

We can all play "what if" games, but I don't think anyone would believe that arm-chair hypotheses are certain predictions of what would have really happened.

Why do you also assume than an extension of WWII would have resulted in the "fall" of Communist China?

I'm just saying that "alternative histories" (of which, by the way, I'm quite a fan) can't be used in any logically grounded argument.

Saying with 100% certainty that things would be better is of course impossible.

The only thing we can be certain of is that some 110 million people were murdred by their own system of government.

MSD · 06-12-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I assume you are refering to China? I've never heard this. It sounds really messed up though. Can you give some more details or background info? Who else does this? Thanks.

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/May2003/China

Quote:

The use of lethal injection as a method of execution is becoming increasingly popular among provincial authorities in China. In January 2003 a journalist and a group of "several dozen" court officers from all prefectures, cities and counties in Gansu province were taken by officials of the provincial high court to an unnamed detention centre near Lanzhou to attend a lecture and then witness the execution by lethal injection of 11 convicted prisoners. This was reportedly the largest group of prisoners to be executed by lethal injection on one single occasion since the method was introduced in Lanzhou.

Execution by lethal injection as an alternative to the firing squad was introduced in China in the revised Criminal Procedure Law in 1997 and was first used on an experimental basis in Yunnan province. The current "strike hard" anti-crime campaign, launched in 2001, under which defendants are often sentenced to death for crimes which at other times are punishable by imprisonment, has led to a rise in executions. During 2001 and 2002 AI recorded more than 5,900 death sentences and more than 3,500 executions in China, although the true figures were believed to be much higher.

In an effort to improve cost-efficiency, Chinese provincial authorities are beginning to introduce so-called mobile execution vans. These are intended to replace the traditional method of execution by firing squad in which prisoners are taken to an execution ground and made to kneel with hands cuffed before being shot in the head. Officials in Yunnan province explained that only four people are required to carry out the execution in the mobile vans: the executioner, one member of the court, one official from the procuratorate and one forensic doctor.

Eighteen mobile executions vans, converted 24-seater buses, are being distributed to all intermediate courts and one high court in Yunnan province. The windowless execution chamber at the back contains a metal bed on which the prisoner is strapped down. Once the needle is attached by the doctor, an act which breaches international medical ethics, a police officer presses a button and an automatic syringe inserts the lethal drug into the prisoner's vein. The execution can be watched on a video monitor next to the driver’s seat and can be recorded if required.

The newspaper Beijing Today reported that use of the vans was approved by the legal authorities in Yunnan province on 6 March. Later that same day, two farmers, Liu Huafu, aged 21, and Zhou Chaojie, aged 25, who had been convicted of drug trafficking, were executed by lethal injection in a mobile execution van. Zhao Shijie, president of the Yunnan Provincial High Court, was quoted as praising the new system: "The use of lethal injection shows that China’s death penalty system is becoming more civilized and humane." However, members of China's legal community have voiced their concerns that it will only lead to an increase in the use of the death penalty.

Another article, with just a small clip, click for whole article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...533087,00.html

Quote:

...
“After judgment is pronounced the criminal will be taken somewhere near the court, normally within 10 minutes’ drive,” said the policeman. “He will then be transferred to the lethal injection van. It’s all over very quickly.”

A rare newspaper account of an execution on January 19 in Liaoyang, the provincial capital, says the convicted man, Li Jiao, was dead within 14 minutes of sentence being pronounced.

The vans, which cost £33,000 each, are fitted with closed circuit television, which permitted Li’s death to be watched by local members of the National People’s Congress gathered at the city’s funeral parlour.

In the past, capital punishment was carried out by a single shot to the back of the head at execution fields outside Chinese cities and families of the dead were sent a bill for the bullet. Now the vans are circulating in several provinces, their clean and discreet method of killing hailed by officials as progress. Death by injection costs the state about £63 but is free to the victim’s relatives.

The death penalty is inflicted for crimes ranging from murder to smuggling and official corruption. China refuses to disclose the number of capital sentences carried out each year but Amnesty International quoted a senior legislator as saying up to 10,000 people a year die at the hands of the state executioners.
...

Mephisto2 · 06-12-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The only thing we can be certain of is that some 110 million people were murdred by their own system of government.

Where does the figure of 110 million come from? And to which country (USSR or PRC) are you referring?

Mr Mephisto

jorgelito · 06-12-2005, 09:47 PM

Thanks Mr. Self Destruct. I hadn't heard this news before. You know, China is the biggest executor of criminals in the world. More than the entire rest of the list combined. I think it goes China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam? (or Burma one of those SE countries), US....

I don't know which is worse: a "quick, painless death" carried out after sentencing or a slow agonizing dragged out process of appeals languishing on death row and then a :quick painless death". The worst part is if the guy is innocent.

I do like the part of executing corrupt officials. Maybe if we did that in the US, the corporate thieves and their politicians would behave better *sarcasm*

I thougt it was weird that the official saw lethal injection as "being more civilized".

Mephisto2 · 06-12-2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Thanks Mr. Self Destruct. I hadn't heard this news before. You know, China is the biggest executor of criminals in the world. More than the entire rest of the list combined. I think it goes China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam? (or Burma one of those SE countries), US....

In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA.

59 prisoners were executed in the USA in 2004, bringing the year-end total to 944 executed since the use of the death penalty was resumed in 1977.

Over 3,400 prisoners were under sentence of death as of 1 January 2005.

38 of the 50 US states provide for the death penalty in law.

The USA executed more child offenders than any other country (19 between 1990 and 2003).

A United Nations survey of research findings, conducted in 1988 and updated in 1996, found no evidence of the death penalty being a more effective deterrent than other penalties

61% of the countries in the world have now effectively abolished the death penalty.

Mr Mephisto

06-06-2005, 03:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
stan the man Insane	Human Rights Violations I came across this on bbcnews.com China dismisses US Tiananmen call Chinese authorities have defended their move to use force in 1989 China has dismissed US calls to give a full account of the people who were killed, detained or went missing during pro-democracy protests 16 years ago. The Foreign Ministry in Beijing said the US should pay more attention to its own human rights violations. ________________________________ What I find interesting is the last sentence. If that statement has actually been made then China just admited to violations. Im on the hunt to find that press release. Any ideas of where to look. __________________ long live the hud

06-06-2005, 06:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
stan the man Insane	no no read the last sentance again The Foreign Ministry in Beijing said the US should pay more attention to its own human rights violations. pay more attention to its own that is the ownership right there the states will never say they have commited human right violations to me that last sentence is admission of guilt am i the only one who would love to hear it from his own mouth __________________ long live the hud

06-06-2005, 07:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I agree with Mephisto on this one... this is no admission and it is the same song they've been singing since it all went down years ago. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-07-2005, 05:55 AM	#9 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	No admission to human rights violations... The US or people in the west have frequently accused the Chinese government of Human Rights violations... in this case specifically with regards to the use of force during the protests at Tiananmen. The Chinese government has always defended their use of force at Tiananmen. In this case, the Chinese government is simply saying before the US government tries to raise any issues about human rights violations by the Chinese, the US Government should take a look at its own violations (i.e. the US has no moral ground from which to pontificate about alleged violations when they are engaged in human rights violations). __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-07-2005, 07:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
Incosian Upright Location: In my head.	What I find most interesting is how the Chinese government has altered history for their school systems. I visited China for five weeks in the summer of 2004, and remember specifically my tour guide in Beijing's response when someone in my group asked her about what happened on that day in 1989 in Tianamen Square (we were passing through the Square at the time). She replied that there was a student demonstration that was put down peacefully, and without the use of force. When asked about the reports of a 'massacre' or many killings, she simply repeated her claim that it was peaceful, and nobody was harmed in the process. Of course, as a tour guide she technically is a government employee, but she was not more than a year or two out of college, or may have still been enrolled at Beijing University. Pretty interesting IMHO. Edit: spelling __________________ "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." - Oscar Wilde

06-06-2005, 05:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	This is not news. I actually "boycotted" China for many years, cancelling trips and refusing to go there on business several times, due to the Tiananmen Square massacre. It's no surprise that they still deny their wrong-doing. It's also no surprise that most of the world has moved on and doesn't care anymore. Public opinion is a fickle thing... Mr Mephisto

06-06-2005, 05:59 PM	#3 (permalink)
trickyy ►	while they're at it, i'd like to know what happened to this guy.

06-06-2005, 06:29 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Probably the usual Chinese way. Bullet to the nape of the neck. Bill for bullet sent to family. Welcome to China, "Most Favoured Nation" Mr Mephisto

06-07-2005, 01:51 AM	#8 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Wait, what are you guys referring to? I got a little lost in the posts. The US or China admitting to human rights violations? Between stan, Meph and Charlatan, I am having a little difficulty following the discussion.

06-07-2005, 09:48 AM	#12 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Can you actually put a quantitative qualification on Human Rights abuse? I know you aren't doing this, and don't disagree that China's record is probably worse than the US in this regard... It just struck me as odd when I read it in your post. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-08-2005, 09:36 AM	#15 (permalink)
chickentribs Addict Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night	Anybody else remember Kent State? McCarthyism? Segregation? Japanese Internment? Indentured servitude? Slavery? Native Americans? We have only been around as a country for 230 years and have racked up a consistant list of Human Rights violations that are apalling. It doesn't excuse the Chinese government, but we have no moral ground to stand on at all. So they do have a point, especially recently. __________________ Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W.

06-08-2005, 09:57 AM	#16 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	chickentribs... I think what people would dispute is the current day human rights abuses... in a China vs. USA situation... China would come out on top from most people's points of view. If we want to get historical, who does have a leg to stand on morally speaking. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-08-2005, 10:34 AM	#17 (permalink)
chickentribs Addict Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night	Yes, but even currently with the Iraq situation, Amnesty International condemning our government on abuses, and our refusal to allow Red Cross or other humanitarian organizations access to the prisoners of war, I don't know that we are in any better shape today. __________________ Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W.

06-08-2005, 10:50 AM	#18 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I wouldn't necessarily say that the USA is any better only that people perceive it to be so... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-08-2005, 11:34 AM	#19 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I don't think it is fair to judge a country based on what happened 100+ years ago. China is right though, if you go back over the last 50-60 years years you get a LOT of human rights violations. Not just against terrorists, but against law abiding american citizens who never did anything wrong.

06-08-2005, 12:26 PM	#20 (permalink)
chickentribs Addict Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night	I agree that history is history. I wish that as a true world "leader" we would change our behavior and set examples for the rest of the world to live up to. Simple things like instead of demanding an accounting of bodies from them in front of the world (why?) we help them focus on the emergence of Free Trade and successful business in the country. Look how far they have come, instead of where they were. I know it sounds a bit pollyanna, but it's also a bit of common sense... __________________ Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W.

06-10-2005, 08:58 PM	#25 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	There is no way that a country whose police force has vans equipped with lethal injection equipment that is routinely used on people who commit non-violent crimes is in any position should criticize any other country's human rights abuses, with the possible exception of those that carry out mass executions in stadiums.

06-10-2005, 09:11 PM	#26 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	This is one of those 'if only' moments. There were American generals who thought the right thing to do after the fall of Germany was keep heading to Moscow. It would have saved 10's of millions of lives in the long run which in retrospect would have been worth the cost. The chinese communists would have fallen as well had we done this. The failures of communism may have been a great object lesson to the world, but 110 million deaths is a harsh price to pay. I do hope the growing capitalist spirit in China can transform the government before another massacre takes place. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

06-10-2005, 09:30 PM	#27 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Hey guys, should we open up a globalization thread? It seems like a budding discussion. In regards to human rights, no doubt China is a "violator", as is Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iran etc.etc. I do think that the more "open" China becomes, theres a good chance it will become less prone to violating human rights (IMO). I haven't really constructed any solid argument on this but the basis would be premised on economic consideration, prestige/role as an emerging "leader", and internationalization/education - opening up. In short, as China becomes more and more integrated, it would be in China's own interest to "behave". Or, on the other hand, China becomes "too" powerful and beligerent, do as it pleases.

06-12-2005, 02:02 PM	#35 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I would also be fascinated to read this paper.....if at all possible __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

06-12-2005, 09:47 PM	#39 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Thanks Mr. Self Destruct. I hadn't heard this news before. You know, China is the biggest executor of criminals in the world. More than the entire rest of the list combined. I think it goes China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam? (or Burma one of those SE countries), US.... I don't know which is worse: a "quick, painless death" carried out after sentencing or a slow agonizing dragged out process of appeals languishing on death row and then a :quick painless death". The worst part is if the guy is innocent. I do like the part of executing corrupt officials. Maybe if we did that in the US, the corporate thieves and their politicians would behave better sarcasm I thougt it was weird that the official saw lethal injection as "being more civilized". __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter