Iraq: Positive Developments - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

powerclown · 06-08-2005, 08:53 AM

New Iraqi Marshlands Restoration & Clean Water Projects in Southern Iraq

New York, 20 April 2005

The goal of restoring the environment and providing clean water and sanitation services to some 85,000 people living in the marshlands of southern Iraq moved a step closer today.

At six pilot project sites in Thi-Qar, Basrah, and Missan governorates, it was announced that environmentally sound technologies (ESTs) will be implemented on a pilot basis to see how they perform in bringing drinking water, sanitation systems and wetland management skills to local people and communities.

The “low tech” less polluting ESTs used will include restoration of reed beds and other marshland habitats that act as natural, water-filtration systems.

Considered suitable from a technical and social perspective, the pilot sites were selected by Iraqi ministries and the Marsh Arab Forum, in consultation with UNEP. The locations are Al-Kirmashiya, Badir Al-Rumaidh, Al-Masahab, Al-Jeweber, Al-Hadam and Al-Sewelmat.

The news from the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) marshlands project, funded by the Government of Japan, was presented to participants at an Italian government sponsored meeting on the marshlands, held in the margins of the 13th session of the UN Commission on Sustainable Development (CSD) in New York.

The selection of the sites, the resulting on the ground activities and the wider application of the ESTs in the region, is a key stage in the implementation of UNEP’s multi-million dollar project to restore the Marshlands of Mesopotamia.

The Iraqi Marshlands, considered by some to be the location of the Biblical Garden of Eden, were massively damaged in the late 20th Century, partly as a result of new dams on the Tigris and Eurphrates river systems and partly as a result of massive drainage operations by the previous Iraqi regime.

In 2001, UNEP alerted the world to their plight when it released satellite images showing that 90 per cent of these fabled wetlands, home to rare and unique species like the Sacred Ibis and a spawning ground for Gulf fisheries, had been lost.

Further studies, released in 2003, showed that an additional three per cent or 325 square kilometres had gone. Experts feared that the entire wetlands, home to a 5,000 year-old civilisation could disappear entirely by 2008. With the collapse of the former Iraqi regime in mid-2003, local residents began opening floodgates and breaching embankments in order to bring water back into the marshlands.

“The challenge now is to restore the environment and provide clean water and sanitation services to the up to 85,000 people living there,” said Monique Barbut, Director of UNEP’s Division of Technology, Industry and Economics (DTIE), which is carrying out the $11 million project.

Other project activities include the establishment of a Marshland Information Network, an Internet-based system that allows those with an interest in the region to share their ideas and strategies. An Arabic version of UNEP’s Environmentally Sound Technology Information System (ESTIS) serves as the basis for the network.

Furthermore, a satellite-based observation system for marshland monitoring is now operational, and regular real-time reports will soon be available.

The project is also helping to train the Iraqi authorities, both at national government and local levels. To date approximately 160 Iraqi experts have been trained in wetland management and restoration, remote sensing analysis and community-based resource management.

Several other governments and non-governmental organizations are involved in the Iraqi Marshlands. The UNEP project is strengthening the coordination of these various efforts to ensure maximum benefit for the people and local environment.

To this end, UNEP is playing a key role in the development of a master plan for the restoration and development of the marshlands, the focus of the side-event that was held here at the CSD in New York today.

The UNEP project, “Support for Environmental Management of the Iraqi Marshlands”, is implemented through DTIE’s office in Japan, the International Environmental Technology Centre.

Information about the project is available at: http://marshlands.unep.or.jp/

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*I think it would be safe to say that Stalin never much cared about the environment.

chickentribs · 06-08-2005, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Shia are Arab but not sunni, but are also Iraqi but feared to ally with Iranian shias which turned out to be an unfounded fear (because shia in Iran are not Arab, they are Persian).

This is very much an issue: http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topic...2&parent_id=18

Quote:

“Iran is absolutely ready to co-operate with Iraq in all fields, the economy as well as all other issues of common interest,” he added.

Kharrazi’s visit, just two days after that of US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, highlights the thaw between the two neighbours and their attempt to normalise relations.

“We do not want Iraq to be a place for us to settle our differences with the US,” he said. “Whatever our relations with the US may be, we think it is our duty to assist the Iraqi people.”

Relations between Shia majority Iran and the interim government set up by the US in June 2004, just over a year after a US-led invasion ousted Saddam Hussain, were uneven.

But the new Shia-dominated government, many of whose ministers spent many years in exile in Tehran and have close ties with Iran, an arch-foe of Washington, has helped ease relations.

“The political message of this visit is very important, notably in its timing,” said Zebari.

“It is the first visit by an Arab or Muslim foreign minister since the elections which allowed the Iraqi people to choose its representatives freely and democratically. It’s a sign of the Iranian leadership’s respect for the Iraqi people’s choice.

Many of the Shia, including Khomeini, lived in Iraq after the Shah came into power and worshipped alongside the very people who were elected into power in the new government. The islamic extremist can't believe their good luck - the U.S. has paid to remove the Sunni elitist out of power for them, and installed their brothers as the new government. They will continue to take our money, watch our soldiers kill and be killed by the Sunnis insurgents who have oppressed them for the last 80 years, and then develop the theocracy they have always wanted.

The U.S. bankrolled Hussein's dictatorship and war against Iran specifically to keep this from happening! Of course they say they want democracy, the Shia comprise 60% of the population. Don't forget that Iran considers itself a democracy also... Our arrogance to believe that anyone in Iraq would have an allegiance to America is dumbfounding.

jorgelito · 06-08-2005, 01:07 PM

Ooops, I should have been more clear and specific. My post was in context of the Iran-Iraq War in which it was feared that the Shias in Iraq would ally with Iran but turns out no. In fact, Iraqi Shias fought against the Iranians. That is what I meant and referred to.

In that scope, Khomenei is still a "Persian" shia and not an Arab one. His exile in Iraq was convenient for Saddam looking to keep Iran on edge.

I did not know of the current govt. in Iraq to be comprised of Shias from Iran. This is new info for me (ah, the perils of studying history vs. current events). However, how this translates to how much or little influence Iran can impart over Iraq remains to be seen. Based on my cursory reading, IMO, probably not a whole lot.

Or how about this? Perhaps Irans' interest in "cooperating" with Iraq is premised on:
1. Establishing regional hegemony - a good time to make a move in a power vacuum.

2. Also, to keep the US at bay. Keep 'em busy with Iraq and presumably out of Iran.

3. Maybe establish a buffer state between Iran and US-friendly Saudi Arabia

In your opinion, do you think the Shias (in Iraq) want a theocracy? Iraq has always kind of leaned secular (I realize that was under sunni control) but are Shias and (Kurds even), leaning towards theocratic state?
I'm not so sure, I don't know enough about it at this moment. I'm not sure the 60% shias are so monolithic.

Although I am against the war, I believe there are Iraqis who would ally with the US. Don't know about numbers though. I just don't believe things are so black and white you know?

chickentribs · 06-08-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I did not know of the current govt. in Iraq to be comprised of Shias from Iran. This is new info for me (ah, the perils of studying history vs. current events). However, how this translates to how much or little influence Iran can impart over Iraq remains to be seen. Based on my cursory reading, IMO, probably not a whole lot.

Hi jorgelito, actually they are Shia from Iraq who were elected into power, but they lived in Najaf with many of the Shiites who left Iran when Khomeini was exiled from 1965 - '78, and the Iranian Shiiites actually fought against the "Persians" during the war. Khomeini went back and overthrough the Shah in '79 and instituted Islamic law.

The government has leadership roles filled from the Sunni and the Kurds, but without any votes to back them up it is mostly for appearances. Even with the majority of the population, the Shiites have had no authority for the last 100 years, and have been considered "lower class". Believe that they are ready to take over and aligning with the Ayatolla locks in Shiite rule in that part of the country for a long time.... When drafting their Constitution Al Sadr made sure that the politicians based it all on Islamic law... Iran denies it but there are many reports that they have been funding Sadr's organization and rise to power in Iraq over the last year with upwards of $80 million.

powerclown · 06-08-2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chickentribs

This is very much an issue: http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topic...2&parent_id=18

Startling read, chickenribs. Reading this article, I have to say I also came to a different conclusion than you. Also, I was unaware that Foreign Minister Zerbari was Kurdish, and a peshmerga fighter at that. A good start to the democratization process I would say - how's that for tolerance and diversity?

It is inevitable for the 2 countries to have relations, and anything that would contribute to further stabilization in the region is a good thing in my opinion. There is much bad blood between them, though. We saw the atrocities both sides committed upon eachother during the 8 year Iraq-Iran War (1 million dead), which included the use of chemical weapons. There is much damage to repair, on many levels, and I would have to believe that neither possess short memories.

For the countries of the West, as well as Israel, I see the developing relationship in a favorable light insofar as there is now, potentially, an intermediary ally (Iraq) in direct contact (and with growing influnce, no doubt) with a radical government (Iran) hostile to the West and Israel. The 'calming effect ' that a stable, moderate Iraq could have upon Iran holds much promise. The Iranian iron-fist fundies who rule without a public mandate could very easily find themselves suddenly quite unpopular, unwelcome and - eventually - out on their asses.

This is the single, most important line in the article in my opinion:

Quote:

“We do not want to see (Abu Musab) Zarqawi or anybody else set up an Islamic terrorist emirate hostile to Iran or any other country in the region,” he added, in reference to Al Qaeda’s frontman in Iraq

A clear, unequivocal strike directly at al-Qaeda, it's leadership, it's supporters and those countires sympathetic to them. Zerbari knows a terrorist when he see one, plus he's a tough son of a bitch if he had the blessing of Iyad Allawi. I hope this sets a precedent of complete and total intolerance for the meddling by violent, religious fanaticism in both countries, hell, in the entire Middle East. I hope this sets the agenda loud and clear to those elements - whom Zerbari mentioned by name - that there will be no tolerance for fundamentalist terrorism.

Great read.

chickentribs · 06-08-2005, 02:32 PM

You're right, powerclown, I sound a bit negative and should adopt a "wait and see" attitude. The cooperation between the two countries will certainly help economically for both, and less hostility is always a good thing in my book.

The down side is the increasing nervousness of Turkey and Saudi Arabia, not to mention Pakistan. It is a great opportunity for the U.S. to exhibit some good faith effort in that part of the world if democracy is in fact all we want. As a country, we always seem to find a way to screw things up over there...

roachboy · 06-08-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Iraqi Leaders Take a Divisive Step by Backing Shiite Militia
By EDWARD WONG
Published: June 8, 2005

BAGHDAD, Iraq, June 8 - In a move certain to further inflame sectarian tensions with Sunni Arabs, the country's top leaders said today that they strongly supported the existence of an Iranian-trained Shiite militia and praised the militia's role in trying to secure the country.

It was the first time the new Iraqi government has publicly backed an armed group that was created along sectarian lines, and it was an implicit rejection of repeated requests by American officials that the government disband all militias in the country.

The widening sectarian rift was further underscored today when top Sunni Arab leaders demanded that a 55-member constitutional committee dominated by Shiites and Kurds add at least 25 Sunni seats to the committee. The Sunnis said they wanted those seats to have full membership powers.

In recent days, Shiite committee members have proposed adding 12 to 15 non-voting seats to the committee for Sunnis.

Violence from the Sunni-led insurgency continued, as the American military announced on today that four soldiers had died from various attacks in northern Iraq today and Tuesday. A car bomb exploded in a line of drivers outside a gas station in the city of Baquba, killing three people and wounding one, an Interior Ministry official said.

Two bodyguards of a National Assembly member were gunned down in Baghdad, a police officer was killed in the capital and another was assassinated in Mosul, the official said.

The remarks supporting the Shiite militia were made in the morning at an unusual news conference whose speakers included Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the Iraqi prime minister and a Shiite Arab; Jalal Talabani, the Kurdish president and a militia leader himself, and Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim, the leader of the Shiite political party that created the Shiite militia, known as the Badr Organization.

In recent weeks, some Sunni Arab leaders have vociferously blamed the Badr militia for the murders of prominent Sunni clerics and others. Among the Badr's harshest critics is Harith al-Dhari, leader of the Muslim Scholars Association, a powerful group of Sunni clerics that says it represents 3,000 mosques.

Indeed, from the time the Badr militia entered Iraq from Iran during the American-led invasion, Sunnis have blamed Badr fighters for assassinations across the country, especially the killings of former Baath Party officials.

The joint appearance of Mr. Talabani and the Shiite leaders indicated that Shiite and Kurdish leaders seemed willing to endorse the existence of each group's militias. The two main Kurdish parties together have the strongest militia in the country, a force that totals 100,000 fighters and is known as the pesh merga, or "those who face death." In negotiations with the Shiites to assemble the current government, Kurdish leaders argued vehemently that the Kurds, as part of their right to broad autonomy, must be allowed to keep the pesh merga intact.

The issue was expected to be raised again during the drafting of the new constitution, but Mr. Talabani's support of the Badr Organization appears to show that the Kurds and Shiites have reached some sort of understanding that their respective militias should continue to exist.

"You and the pesh merga are wanted and are important to fulfilling this sacred task, to establishing a democratic, federal and independent Iraq," Mr. Talabani said, addressing the Badr.

Mr. Hakim, the leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, known as SCIRI, said: "Badr represents all Iraqis; it represents the wide spectrum of Iraqis and has a wide base in Iraq."

The Badr Organization, originally called the Badr Brigade, was founded in the 1980's while SCIRI was in exile in Iran, and it received training from the Iranian military. Mr. Hakim was appointed its leader by his older brother and SCIRI's founder, Muhammad Bakr al-Hakim. When the elder Hakim was killed with scores of followers in a suicide car bombing in Najaf in August 2003, his brother took charge of the entire SCIRI organization.

In the summer of 2003, the Badr Brigade changed its name because American officials with the Coalition Provisional Authority were urging the dissolution of all militia. The Badr's leaders publicly claimed it had transformed into a purely humanitarian organization, but said repeatedly in interviews that the Badr was still armed and was active in cities across Iraq, particularly in the Shiite heartland of the south.

The militia numbers in the tens of thousands, and American officials now privately acknowledge that they have failed to disband any of the country's major militias.

When asked about the continuing existence of the militias, American military commanders refer reporters to the Iraqi government, saying the issue is now in the hands of leaders like Dr. Jaafari, Mr. Talabani and Mr. Hakim. The commanders say they cannot give orders to a sovereign Iraq, even if the existence of the militias increases the possibility of large-scale civil war.

One of the toughest issues for the new government is how to lessen the deep-seated feelings of disenfranchisement among the former ruling Sunni Arabs. The Sunnis largely boycotted the January elections and are effectively shut out of the political process. Shiite and Kurdish leaders, at the urging of the White House, are trying to bring in more Sunnis, especially into the process of drafting the permanent constitution, whose first draft is due by August 15.

Sunni Arab leaders met in Baghdad today and concluded that they wanted at least 25 seats on the 55-member committee of the National Assembly assigned to draft the constitution. There are now two Sunni Arabs on the Shiite-dominated committee. The committee will likely be resistant to the demands of the Sunnis, since there are only 15 Kurds on the committee. Sunni Arabs and Kurds each make up roughly a fifth of the Iraqi population.

Alaa Meki, an official in the Iraqi Islamic Party, a powerful Sunni group, said in an interview that the Sunni leaders were ready to submit 25 names to the committee to be accepted as "full members, not as advisers."

One problem facing the Iraqi government is that unlike the Shiites, the Sunni Arabs do not have a unified leadership. Several rival Sunni movements have been negotiating with American and Iraqi officials over the Sunni role in politics and the constitutional process. The meeting of Sunnis today did not include the National Dialogue Council, a group that is competing with the Iraqi Islamic Party and Muslim Scholars Association.

The International Crisis Group, a prominent conflict-resolution organization, released a study today saying that the National Assembly should invoke the one-time option of a six-month delay on the writing of the constitution partly to make the process more participatory. The assembly should then lay out a detailed and realistic timetable for completing the first draft, the study said.

It also urged the Bush administration to top pushing the Iraqis to meet the original deadline of August 15. American officials have said they intend to keep on track the writing of the constitution and elections for a five-year government, scheduled for December.

Joost R. Hiltermann, the report's author and a recent visitor to Iraq, said in an e-mail message that the haggling over Sunni positions on the committee "could go on for a while" and is "all the more reason to postpone, but only with a detailed timetable."

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/08/in...rtner=homepage

things grow curiouser and curiouser.

there have been concerns surfacing in various sectors--not entirely within, not entirely without the press pool--that iraq could be sliding into civil war. i do not pretend to know much for certain about this, but the moves outlined in the above article cannot help matters.

======================================================

by the way, this is an excellent source for information on iraq:

http://www.iwpr.net/iraq_index1.html

i'd have posted this earlier but i forgot about the site altogether.

this link is to the index page for analyses of iraq from this month
at the bottom of the page is a small link to the index: once you find it, things are a bit confusing at first, but you'll figure it out.

if you look here:

http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?iraq_ipm_index.html

you land on the index for a daily summary of what is being reported in iraqi newspapers. which is interesting.

there are other options as well--cruise around.

also, check out the homepage as well for links to other areas of iwpr coverage, which include afghanistan, central asia and the balkans.

powerclown · 06-08-2005, 05:48 PM

Very interesting article roachboy. There are indeed positive elements to the article you posted. And there looks to be still more bloodless, boring, low-ratings worthy, but relevant news in line with this thread on the links you provided, so thanks.

It is no secret to anyone that the insurgency is composed of Sunni-Arabs, that ethnic group which made up Hussein's Baath party. There's a brief summary of their motivation a few threads up. They've lost the dictatorial power which they used to keep the entire country under a violent stranglehold for decades. Their method of governance is by now well understood: Fear, intimidation, torture, murder, mutilation, mass dirt naps in the desert, etc. were the traditional methods used to silence political dissent and opposition to Hussein and his Baath Party.

Quote:

"...Mr. Talabani's support of the Badr Organization appears to show that the Kurds and Shiites have reached some sort of understanding that their respective militias should continue to exist."

This is encouraging news. That the Kurds and the Shiites are working together is quite a worthy achievement. When you think about it, here you have 2 ethnicities with a troubled history burying the hatchet to make tough, important decisions, within a legitimately formed (by popular vote) democratic process, guided by one unifying vision, as stated by Talabani himself:

Quote:

"You and the pesh merga are wanted and are important to fulfilling this sacred task, to establishing a democratic, federal and independent Iraq," Mr. Talabani said, addressing the Badr."

Needless to say, this courageous agreement between sides would never have been possible in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. "The establishment of a democratic, federal, and independent Iraq." One goal, one future, one destiny. It is very encouraging to hear this from one of the future lawmakers of Iraq.

What is also apparent is that Sunni-Arabs are going to have a larger and larger role in the government, and a prominent say in the writing of the constitution. This will undoubtedly be a difficult period for Sunni-Arab politicians, as they need to start the process of organizing and reinventing themselves into a party suitable to the new style of governance, and also show they are capable of joining the united Kurds/Shiites in the political process.

jorgelito · 06-08-2005, 05:54 PM

Wow, this is a very BAD idea. The British tried the same sh*t back inthe day with an Assyrian militia under their control.

Everything I've read (academic, policy papers, expert,not journalist, analysis) totally seems to be ignored.

My professor was telling us the other day how when he advised Reagan, all his advice was never taken. Same with alot of the visiting academics at our school including Warren Christopher (damn, I wish I took his class). But the major trend I noticed, is that the policies implemented never seem to be based on the policy advisors. Seems foolish and wasteful to me ( a poor student who obviously doesn't have the inside track to how Washington works).

Quick! Issue me a temp ban! I need to study but I can't resist talking with you guys! I am actually trying to finish up my 15 page paper on the British experience in Iraq during the Mandates Period (I have one complete page done). It's due by 2:30PM Thursday PST. Well, at least I have all my sources and citations tagged. My thesis is pretty tight (I think), I just need to type, type away. I think a page an hour plus two more hours for final edit should do it.

If anyone's interested, I can post updates every few hours or so, then the final.

Sh*t! Gotta go, go, go! *AhGAHRGHGAHHGRH!!1/.......

jorgelito · 06-08-2005, 06:00 PM

The thing about the Sunnis is that they're miffed about losing power/control they've enjoyed since the Ottoman era. The trick, IMO, is how to power share among the various groups that is meaningful and productive. No doubt, the Sunnis need to relinquish some power, but not be marginalized either. That's a major concern, making sure no one is shut out of the political process. Especially for legitimacy sake.

The key is careful implementation of political institutions and of course, securing the country and taking care of infrastructure and basic needs. Turn the power and water on and the people will be more helpful etc.etc. Secure the raods so people can get to work and school. Hire locals when contracting work. not paying some kid from Iowa $80,000 to drive a truck for a month. Hire a local for $1000. (average Iraqi salary - $6 a day) [I will provide source later] Talk about incentive! And, we, the American taxpayer will save loads!!

Ok, now I really have to get back.

powerclown · 06-08-2005, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

The British tried the same sh*t back inthe day with an Assyrian militia under their control.

Do you think it makes a difference that the controlling force today is instead an indigenous group such as the Kurds/Shia??

Quote:

The trick, IMO, is how to power share among the various groups that is meaningful and productive. No doubt, the Sunnis need to relinquish some power, but not be marginalized either. That's a major concern, making sure no one is shut out of the political process. Especially for legitimacy sake.

Totally agree.

Quote:

Ok, now I really have to get back.

Hehehe, hopefully we'll still be here.

Your personal insight into the matter is informative and appreciated.

chickentribs · 06-08-2005, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

Do you think it makes a difference that the controlling force today is instead an indigenous group such as the Kurds/Shia??

A little more insight as to why the Kurds and Shiite have become friendly:http://www.kurdmedia.com/reports.asp?id=2643

Quote:

The unity of Iraq is currently at stake and many distinguished observers and commentators believe the country is heading for a sooner-rather-later break-up, and since Southern Kurdistan is part of Iraq it is the favoured to be the first part of the country to gain independence and consequently become an international person.

They work together to shut out the Sunni, and then the Shia gives up the northern part of Iraq and allows the Kurds to become an independant state, Kurdistan. Interesting... The Kurds are so geographically removed from the southern part of Iraq anyway, and they have wanted an independant state for a long time.

jorgelito · 06-09-2005, 07:03 PM

Hi guys, I'm back now. I finally finished my paper in the wee hours this morning and handed it in.

Ok, for today's positive development:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._re_mi_ea/iraq

Basically, Iraq's president, a Sunni Kurd, has extended political incorporation to Sunni Arabs in drafting a constitution by adding 25 more Sunnis to the constitution committee.

Now, obviously there is still a lot of tensions, infighting (sectarian) and alot of work to be done and the situation is still tenuous, BUT, this is a good first step. It's what some of us have been talking about around these threads.

Interesting note: Sunni Arab inclusion has been heavily pushed for by the US and EU.

powerclown · 06-10-2005, 08:34 AM

That link goes to the article: "At Least 17 Bodies Found in Iraqi Town."
I suppose if you were an insurgent - or a sympathizer - this would be a positive development.
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*To elaborate on the above theme:

Shi’ites Offer Sunnis Bigger Role in Iraq Constitution

26/05/2005
By Diala Saadeh

BAGHDAD, May 26 (Reuters) - Iraq’s Shi’ite-led government is reaching out to Sunni Arabs to ensure they play a bigger role in writing a new constitution, but this will not delay the process, the head of parliament’s constitutional committee said.

Humam al-Hamoudi told Reuters in an interview the constitution would be ready by an Aug. 15 deadline even if Sunni Arabs were given time to choose representatives to help draft the document.

"We are very determined to finish drawing up the constitution before the deadline," Hamoudi said.

Iraq’s parliament has appointed a 55-member committee to oversee the writing of the document, but it contains only two Sunni Arabs.

Although they make up around 20 percent of the population and dominated Iraq during the rule of Saddam Hussein, Sunni Arabs have been left with minimal representation in parliament because many of them boycotted the Jan. 30 elections. There are 17 Sunni Arab lawmakers in Iraq’s 275-member parliament.

But leading Sunni Arab groups said this month they wanted a greater role in parliament, and Washington has urged Iraq’s government to reach out to Sunnis to help defuse sectarian tension and undermine the Sunni Arab-dominated insurgency.

Hamoudi said he had talked to Sunni Arab groups and they would select representatives to serve on the expanded commission.

"They are likely to hold partial elections within the Sunni provinces to pick their representatives for the committee," he said.

"We need to discuss with the Sunnis what they demand for better participation. We will continue meeting them until we strike an agreement for the sake of the nation."

Under Iraq’s political timetable, once a constitution is written it must be approved by a referendum. If it is approved, new general elections will be held by the end of the year.

The rules of the referendum state that if a majority of voters in three provinces reject the constitution, it will be vetoed even if an overall majority of Iraqis approves the document.

The clause was inserted at the insistence of the Kurds, who want to ensure the constitution does not encroach upon their autonomy in northern Iraq, but it could give Sunni Arabs the chance to reject the document if they feel they have not been given adequate participation in drafting it.
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jorgelito · 06-10-2005, 04:13 PM

!@#$*&% Damn! *scratches head*

Ooops, I obviously posted incorectly. Thanks powerclown for correcting it. The article you posted is the one I was refering to.

Elphaba · 06-10-2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

!@#$*&% Damn! *scratches head*

Ooops, I obviously posted incorectly. Thanks powerclown for correcting it. The article you posted is the one I was refering to.

Congrats on finishing your thesis, Jorgelito. Have you gotten any rest yet?

I would like to say to everyone posting in this topic that I greatly appreciate the information and links that you have provided. I feel much more informed about the region.

jorgelito · 06-10-2005, 09:31 PM

Thanks for your kind words and concern. I haven't been able to "rest" too much yet, as I have finals next week and one last paper (on globalization - good or bad?). But, I really can't complain though

powerclown · 06-11-2005, 08:06 PM

NATO to Expand Training of Iraqis

By Mark Mazzetti, Times Staff Writer
June 10, 2005

BRUSSELS — NATO plans to enlarge its efforts to improve Iraq's fledgling security forces by opening a base near Baghdad that will train 1,000 Iraqi officers each year, defense ministers gathered here said Thursday.

By September, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization plans to have completed a headquarters at Rustimiya near Baghdad, where alliance officers will run the training program to help quell the country's violent insurgency.

The headquarters will be funded jointly by NATO, the Iraqi government and the U.S. military's training command in Iraq, which is led by U.S. Army Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus. The general was in Brussels on Thursday to discuss plans for the training mission.

NATO has 121 officers in Baghdad training Iraqi forces from the Defense and Interior ministries, alliance officials said. They expect that number to grow over the summer.

It has been nearly a year since NATO pledged to participate in the training of Iraqi troops. Its mission accounts for a fraction of the overall training effort, which the Pentagon considers its top priority in Iraq.

The alliance also plans to expand its role in Afghanistan. NATO troops operate mostly in and around Kabul, the capital, and in western Afghanistan, but there are plans to push the alliance-led International Security Assistance Force into southern Afghanistan, which was once the Taliban's base.

The ISAF troops, who now number more than 8,000, have been operating in Afghanistan since 2002 under a mandate from the United Nations, though for the first two years they limited their mission primarily to Kabul. NATO took command of the force in 2003.

Also Thursday, the alliance made official its decision to participate in a mission airlifting African peacekeeping troops into Sudan's war-torn Darfur region.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld praised NATO's efforts to operate beyond its traditional European borders, saying such missions help the alliance remain relevant in the post-Cold War world.

"NATO has great promise today, greater than in some time," he said.

Rumsfeld left Brussels on Thursday evening, cutting short by a day his weeklong trip through Asia and Europe. Pentagon officials traveling with him said he had shortened the trip in part to be in Washington for the visit of South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun, who will meet today with President Bush.
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*Note that this is Officer training as opposed to basic soldier training. It is widely acknowleded that after the Baath party was removed, along went the Iraqi officer corps with it. Rebuilding positions of military leadership is of vital importance. With leadership comes the foundation of an effective security force able to deal with the insurgency.

roachboy · 06-12-2005, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Memo: U.S. Lacked Full Postwar Iraq Plan
Advisers to Blair Predicted Instability

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 12, 2005; A01

A briefing paper prepared for British Prime Minister Tony Blair and his top advisers eight months before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq concluded that the U.S. military was not preparing adequately for what the British memo predicted would be a "protracted and costly" postwar occupation of that country.

The eight-page memo, written in advance of a July 23, 2002, Downing Street meeting on Iraq, provides new insights into how senior British officials saw a Bush administration decision to go to war as inevitable, and realized more clearly than their American counterparts the potential for the post-invasion instability that continues to plague Iraq.

In its introduction, the memo "Iraq: Conditions for Military Action" notes that U.S. "military planning for action against Iraq is proceeding apace," but adds that "little thought" has been given to, among other things, "the aftermath and how to shape it."

The July 21 memo was produced by Blair's staff in preparation for a meeting with his national security team two days later that has become controversial on both sides of the Atlantic since last month's disclosure of official notes summarizing the session.

In those meeting minutes -- which have come to be known as the Downing Street Memo -- British officials who had just returned from Washington said Bush and his aides believed war was inevitable and were determined to use intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction and his relations with terrorists to justify invasion of Iraq.

The "intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy," said the memo -- an assertion attributed to the then-chief of British intelligence, and denied by U.S. officials and by Blair at a news conference with Bush last week in Washington. Democrats in Congress led by Rep. John Conyers Jr. (Mich.), however, have scheduled an unofficial hearing on the matter for Thursday.

Now, disclosure of the memo written in advance of that meeting -- and other British documents recently made public -- show that Blair's aides were not just concerned about Washington's justifications for invasion but also believed the Bush team lacked understanding of what could happen in the aftermath.

In a section titled "Benefits/Risks," the July 21 memo states, "Even with a legal base and a viable military plan, we would still need to ensure that the benefits of action outweigh the risks."

Saying that "we need to be sure that the outcome of the military action would match our objective," the memo's authors point out, "A post-war occupation of Iraq could lead to a protracted and costly nation-building exercise." The authors add, "As already made clear, the U.S. military plans are virtually silent on this point. Washington could look to us to share a disproportionate share of the burden."

That memo and other internal British government documents were originally obtained by Michael Smith, who writes for the London Sunday Times. Excerpts were made available to The Washington Post, and the material was confirmed as authentic by British sources who sought anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss the matter.

The Bush administration's failure to plan adequately for the postwar period has been well documented. The Pentagon, for example, ignored extensive State Department studies of how to achieve stability after an invasion, administer a postwar government and rebuild the country. And administration officials have acknowledged the mistake of dismantling the Iraqi army and canceling pensions to its veteran officers -- which many say hindered security, enhanced anti-U.S. feeling and aided what would later become a violent insurgency.

Testimony by then-Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul D. Wolfowitz, one of the chief architects of Iraq policy, before a House subcommittee on Feb. 28, 2003, just weeks before the invasion, illustrated the optimistic view the administration had of postwar Iraq. He said containment of Hussein the previous 12 years had cost "slightly over $30 billion," adding, "I can't imagine anyone here wanting to spend another $30 billion to be there for another 12 years." As of May, the Congressional Research Service estimated that Congress has approved $208 billion for the war in Iraq since 2003.

The British, however, had begun focusing on doubts about a postwar Iraq in early 2002, according to internal memos.

A March 14 memo to Blair from David Manning, then the prime minister's foreign policy adviser and now British ambassador in Washington, reported on talks with then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice. Among the "big questions" coming out of his sessions, Manning reported, was that the president "has yet to find the answers . . . [and] what happens on the morning after."

About 10 days later, Foreign Secretary Jack Straw wrote a memo to prepare Blair for a meeting in Crawford, Tex., on April 8. Straw said "the big question" about military action against Hussein was, "how there can be any certainty that the replacement regime will be any better," as "Iraq has no history of democracy."

Straw said the U.S. assessments "assumed regime change as a means of eliminating Iraq's WMD [weapons of mass destruction] threat. But none has satisfactorily answered how that regime change is to be secured. . . ."

Later in the summer, the postwar doubts would be raised again, at the July 23 meeting memorialized in the Downing Street Memo. Richard Dearlove, then head of MI6, the British intelligence service, reported on his meetings with senior Bush officials. At one point, Dearlove said, "There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action."

Republican Party Chairman Ken Mehlman, appearing June 5 on "Meet the Press," disagreed with Dearlove's remark. "I think that there was clearly planning that occurred."

The Blair government, unlike its U.S. counterparts, always doubted that coalition troops would be uniformly welcomed, and sought U.N. participation in the invasion in part to set the stage for an international occupation and reconstruction of Iraq, said British officials interviewed recently. London was aware that the State Department had studied how to deal with an invasion's aftermath. But the British government was "shocked," in the words of one official, "when we discovered that in the postwar period the Defense Department would still be running the show."

The Downing Street Memo has been the subject of debate since the London Sunday Times first published it May 1. Opponents of the war say it proved the Bush administration was determined to invade months before the president said he made that decision.

Neither Bush nor Blair has publicly challenged the authenticity of the July 23 memo, nor has Dearlove spoken publicly about it. One British diplomat said there are different interpretations.

Last week, it was the subject of questions posed to Blair and Bush during the former's visit to Washington.

Asked about Dearlove being quoted as saying that in the United States, intelligence was being "fixed around the policy" of removing Hussein by military action, Blair said, "No, the facts were not being fixed in any shape or form at all." He then went on to discuss the British plan, outlined in the memo, to go to the United Nations to get weapons inspectors back into Iraq.

Bush said he had read "characterizations of the memo," pointing out that it was released in the middle of Blair's reelection campaign, and that the United States and Britain went to the United Nations to exhaust diplomatic options before the invasion.

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100723_pf.html

from today's washington post.
have you noticed the degree to which stories like this are released over the weekend, kept out of the papers earlier in the workweek, when more folk are paying attention to the news?

this particular memo is confirmation of problems that appeared pretty obvious to folk who did not support the war and so were not as caught up in the round of "public diplomacy"/marketing of it carried out by the administration and its comrades in the right media.
the bush people did not have a plan.
apparently, the fantasies that emanated from paul wolfowitz about a qucik conventional military war and postwar period that would primarily be taken up with triumphant doughboys being showered with flowers by grateful iraqis in fact WAS the plan.
there still is no plan.

in a way, this thread is like reading an anarchist magazine in the odl scholl mode--hoping to find evidence for the revolution they knew was coming any minute now, any monute now, these journals would publish accounts of isolated actions apread across space and time, but juxtaposed in the journals so that a reader might think, were these journals their gateway to information about the world, the revolution was in fact about to break out everywhere.
but these journals were always mostly about the desires of the folk who assembled them.
not about the reality those desires were directed toward.

here, you see folk from more conservative dispositions who really wish that the war in iraq was either legitimate in itself or at least could be legitimated through "good works" constructing a collage of iraq as they would prefer to see it.

but the problems of the war itself, the lying that shaped consent, the cynical usage of the "war on terror" and so forth--these problems do not and will not go away.

i expect that the revelations about the magnitude of this administrations inetpness will only get worse.

the consequences of this ineptness are best shown by looking at the body count.

it also gives reason to question every narrative generated by the administration concerning what is happening in iraq.

powerclown · 06-12-2005, 10:36 AM

I'm sure you are aware that Pincus is possibly one of the most liberal, anti-Bush reporters in Washington.

roachboy, given the stakes in Iraq, I'd be curious to hear your (or anyone else's) idea of what would be in the best interests of:

1) The Iraqis
2) The Region
3) The rest of the world

What kind of country (geo-politically speaking) do you all want to see Iraq become?

jorgelito · 06-12-2005, 11:12 PM

The latest: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050612...n_050612231004

This is an interesting more specific glimpse into what they are facing over there. I don't really see this as a negative or positive thing. More like, a transition.

Oh to answer your question Powerclown, IMO, I think: stability (short answer)

powerclown · 06-13-2005, 10:05 AM

Decent article jorgelito, thanks.

As the Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari (Iraq's first democratically elected Prime Minister in 50 years) said himself recently, it is difficult to reconstruct what took 35 years to destroy.

I also read with interest your highly detailed response in the other thread in regards to future stability in Iraq. Thorough post indeed.

powerclown · 06-13-2005, 10:23 AM

*A positive sign from the new Iraqi government in regards to the formation of their new Constitution. A call for moderation from the highest levels, amidst fears over the creation of another fundamentalist regime in the Middle East. Kudos to the Chicago Tribune for making the right decision to publish the article.
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Shiites Want to Limit Islamic References in Iraqi Constitution

27/05/2005 Chicago Tribune - By Liz Sly
BAGHDAD, Iraq - (KRT) - Shiite legislators have decided not to push for a greater role for Islam in the new Iraqi constitution out of concern that the contentious issue will inflame religious sentiments and deepen sectarian tensions.

Instead, the United Iraqi Alliance, the Shiite coalition that won the most seats in January’s elections, will advocate retaining the moderate language of Iraq’s temporary constitution that was drawn up under the auspices of the American occupation authority.

Humam Hamoudi, the Shiite cleric who heads the 55-member constitutional committee that will draft the new document, said that any attempt to debate the issue of Islamic law could ignite a firestorm of competing sectarian demands and that the brief references to Islam in three paragraphs of the temporary constitution should be left untouched.

"These paragraphs represent the middle ground between the secularists and those who want Islamic government, and I think the wisest course of action is to keep them as they are," he said in an interview at his Baghdad home. "Opening up the subject for discussion would provoke religious sentiments in the street."

The decision is likely to defuse what could have been one of the most divisive and rancorous issues confronting Iraqi lawmakers as they begin writing the constitution, the main function of the National Assembly elected in January.

But many controversial issues remain to be settled, and it appears increasingly unlikely that the assembly will be able to complete the constitution by the Aug. 15 deadline. Asked to rate the chances that the constitution will be finished on time, Humam replied "30 percent."

More than halfway into the time allotted, the real work of drafting the document has not yet begun and further delays are expected as politicians wrangle over ways to include members of the marginalized Sunni community in the process.

If the constitution is not ready by August, lawmakers can ask for a six-month extension, pushing back the date of the next election, scheduled for December, into the middle of next year.

According to the temporary constitution, or Transitional Administrative Law, if two-thirds of voters in any three provinces vote against the constitution, the document will be scrapped, fresh elections will be held for a new assembly and the process will start all over again. Sunni leaders have already warned that they will call on Sunnis in the four provinces where they are a majority to veto any constitution drawn up without Sunni participation.

But including Sunnis could be just as problematic. It took more than three months to negotiate the formation of a government that includes six Sunnis, and no one is taking any bets on how long it will take to reach a satisfactory formula for the constitutional committee.

"We have agreed that the TAL will be the basis for our discussions. We can edit it, more or less," said Fuad Massoum, the committee’s Kurdish deputy chairman. "This way we can easily reach an agreement and finish the job on time."

The TAL says Islam should be considered as "a source of legislation," but not the sole source. The words were a point of contention during the drafting of the law, when Shiites, including new Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, pushed hard for Islam to be recognized as the only source of law.

"People are worried about the role of Islam. I think this will be the least time-taking issue because it’s been defined in the TAL and we accept that," said Ali al-Dabbagh, a Shiite legislator on the constitutional committee. He said as much as two-thirds of the TAL could be adopted in the new constitution.

Bringing Sunnis into the process will likely complicate the process, however. A Sunni bloc formed last weekend to represent Sunnis comprises mostly religious parties and clergymen, and they called for Islam to be given a stronger role in the constitution.
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host · 06-13-2005, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

I'm sure you are aware that Pincus is possibly one of the most liberal, anti-Bush reporters in Washington.

roachboy, given the stakes in Iraq, I'd be curious to hear your (or anyone else's) idea of what would be in the best interests of:

1) The Iraqis
2) The Region
3) The rest of the world

What kind of country (geo-politically speaking) do you all want to see Iraq become?

powerclown, instead of replying to roachboy by using such a similar tactic as Bush used to attempt to dimisnish the relevancy of the "Downing Street Memo";

Quote:

Bush replied, when questioned about the authenticity of the "Downing Street Memo by, "pointing out that it was released in the middle of Blair's reelection campaign,""

your variation was to label WAPO reporter Pincus as, "possibly one of the most liberal, anti-Bush reporters in Washington." , and then by attempting to change the subject, why didn't (or won't) you reply to roachboy's points, or to Pincus's article?

Is roachboy's observation valid that the "liberal media" has a tendency to publish articles such as the one written by Pincus. on the weekend when they don't receive as much attention as they could? Would a truly "liberal" media not give the article more exposure.....say on the front page on a tuesday?

What do you disagree with in Pincus's reporting in this article? He quoted Bush, Blair, and GOP chairmain Ken Mehlman in a straightforward way, without interjecting his own "spin" about their comments. Is there anything misleading or untrue in the article? At least in this case, can you agree that Pincus wrote a balanced report, or can you point out particular examples of Pincus misleading an uniformed reader who is trying to brush up on current events?

In edit....I do not disagree with making a point as to the bias, as you understand it, of the source of an article that is presented by another poster.
I take issue with doing that when it is substantially all you do to refute the authenticity or the impact of the article, without even pointing us to examples as to why the source of the article is biased, or to his credentials or affiliations. or to examples of bias in the content of the article, itself.

powerclown · 06-13-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

What do you disagree with in Pincus's reporting in this article?

I'd be more comfortable (with what he reports as fact) if he could produce this 'memo'. He can't. The biggest hint of Pincus' bias is his record of speaking out against the war and everything related to it. It's simply a matter of public record. The assertion here that the "U.S. military was not preparing adequately for...a "protracted and costly" postwar occupation of that country" is obvious to everyone by now, and Pincus is using it to make a political anti-war statement. Is there a science to reconstructing an entire country from scratch? Is it really just a matter of referring to the "How to Rebuild A Ruined Nation in 60 Days" manual? You have to question the motivation of someone who - article after article - chooses to put a blatantly negative spin on an obvious situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Is roachboy's observation valid that the "liberal media" has a tendency to publish articles such as the one written by Pincus. on the weekend when they don't receive as much attention as they could? Would a truly "liberal" media not give the article more exposure.....say on the front page on a tuesday?

I don't dispute roachboy's point of a mistake made by running an ad during low-traffic time slots. The Democrats also made the mistake of electing Howard Dean as their party chairman, so how can one make heads or tails out of anything they do lately? If the article was 100% accurate and verifiable, why wasn't it published in primetime?

And to top it off, al-Jazeera - the unoffical mouthpiece of the insurgency - ran the story on the front page of their website. Credibility issues here.

Elphaba · 06-13-2005, 09:22 PM

::steps on both hands to prevent a response to Powerclown::

powerclown · 06-14-2005, 08:08 AM

*One of the earliest memories I have of the televised days immediately following Hussein's demise was watching a looter's pickup truck stuffed to the gills with what appeared to be museum pieces. Someone managed to get a camera into one of these looted museums, where one could see aisle after aisle of empty display cases and shelves, shattered glass everywhere. It is amazing to me to learn that so many of the pieces are being recollected. This must be unprecedented in the history of warfare - historical items actually being returned to the scene of a battle. Well done to whoever is responsible for finding these things.
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Thousands of Stolen Iraqi Artifacts Found

By Betsy Pisik
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

NEW YORK -- Roughly half of the 15,000 items looted from the National Museum of Iraq in 2003 have been recovered, said its director, who thanked American officials for assistance in restoring the building.

Archaeologist and museum director Donny George said law-enforcement and customs officials in the United States had intercepted at least 1,000 artifacts stolen from the museum in the chaotic days after the fall of Baghdad.

Another 3,000 or so artifacts have been found and secured in Jordan, Syria, Italy and other nations, said the museum director, an Iraqi-born Christian. However, he said, the governments of Iran and Turkey -- both neighbors with porous land borders -- have failed to respond to legal and diplomatic inquiries.

Many stolen Iraqi artifacts or their counterfeits still are advertised on EBay and change hands through channels known to collectors. U.S. law-enforcement and customs agencies say they are on the lookout for antiquities but cannot provide current information on interceptions or prosecutions.

U.S. troops, journalists and contractors returning from Iraq are among those who have been caught with forbidden souvenirs -- mostly paintings and small seals and cylinders that can be carved exquisitely and hidden easily.

"We are grateful to our friends and dear brothers" for intercepting the artifacts, Mr. George said Tuesday evening during a slide presentation to the National Arts Club in New York.

Much of Baghdad was plunged into chaos after U.S. troops captured the capital on April 9, 2003. As Iraqi troops fled, looters and professional thieves quickly overran the museum, which was left unguarded.

Mr. George -- like many Iraqis and much of the American press -- blamed U.S. military planners at the time for ignoring the history and culture of the country they had come to liberate.

But the museum director was much more conciliatory at the National Arts Club, where he told a well-heeled audience that he was "satisfied" with the level of financial and technical support to rebuild the shattered museum.

Asked whether the Pentagon had offered an apology for failing to guard the museum, Mr. George said U.S. assistance allowed his staff to rebuild the museum's offices and galleries, install new security systems and create computer networks where there had been none.

"I will take that as an apology," he said.

Mr. George, the director of research for the State Board of Antiquities under Saddam Hussein, was installed as director of the National Museum of Iraq by the U.S.-run Coalition Provisional Authority that governed the country from early 2003 until last summer.

He remained in that post under the interim government and has been retained by the transitional government of Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari. He also has the support of the international antiquities specialists.

"He's a real professional, one of the archaeologists in the Middle East," said McGuire Gibson, a professor of Mesopotamian archaeology at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute who visited Iraq's museum and archaeological sites in 2003 for the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization and the National Geographic Society.

Mr. George said much of the thievery was done by insiders, but told The Washington Times this week that Iraqi and museum authorities have made little effort to find the culprits.

"I am asking [U.S. investigators] to tell me who they have caught," he said with a shrug.

The museum is trying to establish a database of the looted artifacts, in part to make them more difficult to sell. The FBI, Interpol and many museums also have put up images of the missing artifacts.

In the meantime, Mr. George said, he has asked governments to document and hold on to what they intercept until Iraq is more stable.

Thousands of missing pieces are presumed to be inside Iraq, where a corps of mostly untrained volunteers has been scouring markets in search of the missing antiquities.

The museum also has been fortified with tall concrete walls and welded gates that enclose the galleries, but Mr. George said it is not safe to reopen the doors to visitors.
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roachboy · 06-14-2005, 10:19 AM

Quote:

US suspects 'face torture overseas'
By Dan Isaacs
BBC News

It is no secret that the US military operates detention centres around the world for the interrogation of terror suspects.

The treatment of prisoners in these places - including Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan and Abu Ghraib in Iraq - has come in for intense scrutiny and evidence of human rights violations has been widely reported.

But less well-documented is the process by which terror suspects are sent by the United States for interrogation by security officials in other countries.

This is known as "rendition" and is becoming increasingly controversial because many of these countries - including Syria and Egypt - are accused of using torture on prisoners, not least by the US State Department.

'Tortured in Syria'

Maher Arar is a Canadian citizen who in 2002 was detained in transit at New York's JFK airport, and accused of being an al-Qaeda member.

After 12 days in US custody, he was bundled in chains aboard a plane to Jordan and then taken by road to the Syrian capital, Damascus. There, Mr Arar claims, he was tortured by Syrian security police.

He hit me like crazy. And the pain was so painful and of course I started crying, and then they asked me questions
Maher Arar
Former detainee

"The interrogator said, 'Do you know what this is?' I said, 'Yes, it's a cable,'" Mr Arar told the BBC.

"He told me: 'Open your right hand.' I opened my right hand and he hit me like crazy. And the pain was so painful and of course I started crying, and then they asked me questions."

Steven Watt from the American Civil Liberties Union has been closely involved in the case.

"The US State Department specifically states that the state security police in Syria torture and abuse detainees in their custody and that's exactly what happened to Maher," he said.

"In the first two weeks in particular he was beaten severely using electric cables, on all parts of his body, and he was detained in what he described as a grave. It was six feet [1.8m] long, three feet wide and six feet high and that was his home for some 10 months."

'Dozens of cases'

The Syrian authorities have confirmed that they did interrogate Mr Arar in relation to terrorist activities, but deny that any torture took place.

The case is far from unique. Human rights lawyers have documented similar stories from prisoners transferred to a range of countries which the US State Department recognises as routinely carrying out torture in detention - including Syria and Egypt.

This country does not believe in torture. We do believe in protecting ourselves. We don't believe in torture
US President George W Bush
Mr Watt says it is difficult to find out how many cases of rendition there have been by the US authorities.

"Well, it's highly sensitive, but just in recent months there have been reports of some 100 to 150 individuals who have been rendered in such fashion - that's since 9/11.

"Recently in an interview on US television [Egyptian President] Hosni Mubarak said 50 to 60 individuals alone had been rendered by the US to Egypt, so I think 100 to 150 is a fairly conservative estimate."

The US does not deny that terror suspects have been transferred in this way, but strongly rejects accusations that they are being tortured.

"In a post-9/11 world the United States must make sure we protect our people and our friends from attack," said President George W Bush when challenged on the issue at a press conference in March.

"That was the charge we had been given. And one way to do so is to arrest people and send them back to their country of origin, with the promise that they won't be tortured.

"That's the promise we receive. This country does not believe in torture. We do believe in protecting ourselves. We don't believe in torture."

''Window-dressing'

The US authorities say they receive "diplomatic assurances" that those they transfer will not be tortured.

Stephen Grey, a journalist who has closely followed US rendition policy, is not convinced that this amounts to anything more than window-dressing for a highly controversial policy.

"Although the Bush administration is now saying they wouldn't be tortured - people who've actually been involved in this programme know full well what kind of countries they're dealing with," he told the BBC.

Mr Grey says Michael Scheuer, the former head of a CIA unit set up to track al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden, "has said that he told his bosses in the administration and the CIA that people they were sending to countries like Egypt would be tortured".

The US State Department declined a request for an interview, but did provide a statement.

"It is the long-standing policy of the United States not to transfer a person to a country if it determines that it is more likely than not that the person will be tortured," the statement says.

"Prior to any transfer, the department seeks assurances in every case in which continued detention by the government concerned is foreseen, of humane treatment and treatment in accordance with international obligations."

'Times of war'

Danielle Pletka is a vice-president of the American Enterprise Institute, a think-tank in tune with the politics of the Bush administration.

"I'm not a big fan of torture. Unfortunately, there are times in war when it is necessary to do things in a way that is absolutely and completely abhorrent to most good, decent people," she told the BBC.

"I don't want to say that the United States has engaged routinely in such practices, because I don't think that it is routine by any standard.

"But that said, if it is absolutely imperative to find something out at that moment, then it is imperative to find something out at that moment, and Club Med is not the place to do it."

But many, including the journalist Mr Grey, believe that aside from the human rights issues such intelligence gathering tactics simply do not produce the desired results.

"There are people inside the system, intelligence officers from America and the UK, who are unhappy with what's going on," he said.

"And they're not unhappy because they're soft on terrorism. They're unhappy because they think the whole thing is counter-productive.

"The kind of intelligence they get from torturers beating information out of people is often useless and it just feeds the whole intelligence system with all kinds of useless information that they spend years tracking down and get nowhere."

There is no doubt the sharing of intelligence between countries plays an essential part in defeating global terrorism.

But despite increasing public disquiet about both the morality and effectiveness of interrogation methods being used on terror suspects, neither President Bush nor the US State Department give the impression that the policy of rendition is currently under review.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...as/4088746.stm

powerclown: as regards your absurd characterization of al-jazeera, straight from rumsfeld to this board via a thread about happynews from iraq--watch "control room" which features an extended analysis of the looting of the iraqi museum. more in ten minutes of footage and commentary from folk actually on the ground and not within the american presspool is worth more than a thousand stories about how the stolen items were magically "found"...

on the point/counterpoint front, the above article about the delightful american practice of "rendition" becoming a center of increasingly controversy.

once again, problems that you do not like are not for that going away any time soon.

stevo · 06-14-2005, 10:42 AM

So this is what this thread has come to, huh? See who can post more goodnews stories vs badnews stories. Damn. Time for some people to grow up. The thread is titled Iraq: Positive Developments. Another thread can be started called Iraq: Negative Regressions if it pleases. But argue the validity of the positive newsstories, don't try to counterpoint them with random negatives. Its useless and not at all conducive to the debate in this thread.

jorgelito · 06-14-2005, 10:55 AM

Hey Powerclown,

Thanks for the article on the museum pieces. I always wondered what happened there. It's like a movie waitiing to happen. Maybe Vin Diesel, Angelina Jolie head an all-star cast of adventurers, curators, treasure hunters and looters in a film about how the treasures were stolen and then found. Sort of an updated Indiana Jones pic...ha!

But seriously, theose are priceless relics and can be used in a positive manner in expressing national pride or as a rallying point too. Personally, I think some of these human interest stories an be helpful in the development of Iraq. Especially psychologically.

For example, the Iraqi football (soccer) team was a great source of pride, hope and positivity for the Iraqi people. Yes I know the war sucks and people are dying but there are rays of hope out there. It's how we balance and temper the two that could make a real difference. There's enough negative stories out there for sure, no question nor denial of that. Just searching for positive stories takes a while while combing through the days reality of bombimngs, attacks etc.

Cheers!

jorgelito · 06-14-2005, 10:59 AM

Incidentally, the article Powerclown posted reprised how the whole fiasco of the missing museum pieces started in the first place. Poor US mililtary planning. But, they are ta least, trying to make up for their mistakes. I think that's significant. It's a good article, pretty balanced IMO.

roachboy · 06-14-2005, 12:58 PM

well gee, stevo, if there was only one type of article posted in the thread, there wouldnt be much debate would there? posting from a contrary viewpoint is part of the debate--particularly since this happyface thread is basically set up not only to provide happyface infotainment, but also to trivialize the many many problems with the iraq adventure.

i posted my reasons for putting the articles that i have up in here: i consider those reasons to be legitimate--and will do so until it bores me to continue.

i understand that you might prefer a limbaugh style "debate' in which everyone agress up front, the opposition is systematically excluded and you get to pretend you have access to a range of perspectives which magically mirror your own. there are fundamental disagreements aborad in the land--you can run away from them into the illusion of unanimity if you like, but that you run away does not mean they are not present.

powerclown · 06-14-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

...if there was only one type of article posted in the thread, there wouldnt be much debate would there?

Agreed.
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The stories here are reports of real-life events - if one chooses to call it infotainment, I don't have any problem with that. Just make sure to label all such public-domain reporting likewise for the sake of consistency.

Mantus · 06-14-2005, 04:01 PM

I tend to agree with Stevo here.
Roachboy, that rendition article doesnt even deal with Iraq. I think a proper responce would be anything discrediting the articles posted or any points made on the subject.

roachboy · 06-14-2005, 05:59 PM

i think the types of information talk by each other, mantus: i see very little anywhere directly critiquing press pool releases and others concerning specific actions the us has done to begin rebuilding iraq. on its own terms, i dont have any real interest in attacking the stories that powerclown posts--in fact i find them interesting. the objection i have is that these stories are posted to the exlcusion of wider questions, particularly about the war itself.

so in there is the link to the rendition article--but its a bit of a stretch--my apologies for that part.

host · 06-14-2005, 08:40 PM

Is the Bush regime and it's supporters, circa 2003-2005, the contemporary equivalent of "barbarians"? While reading this, that was the question that came to my mind. The ignorance, the conceit, the incompetence and disregard in the projection of military force, against an old "ally", in such a sensitive area in so many ways.....literally in the "cradle of civilization. Our "commander in chief's" own father detailed why he avoided this drastic, and still, in 2003, easily avoidable option, and his "boy" elected to do it anyway! How would this play if the cultural destruction involved the <a href="www.louvre.fr/louvrea.htm -">Louvre</a>, or the <a href="http://www.polomuseale.firenze.it/english/uffizi/">Uffizi Gallery</a>, or
<a href="http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/">the British Museum</a>.

Quote:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0506/S00115.htm http://www.aina.org/news/200506910119.htm
Iraq Museum's Director-General Lectures About Antiquities
Thursday, 9 June 2005, 4:26 pm
(Chicago) -- The Director General of the Iraq Museum, Baghdad, Dr. Donny George, spoke about the April 2003 looting, the recovery of antiquities and the museum's restoration initiatives at a lecture hosted by the Field Museum.

"I saw everything as an eyewitness," he said.

George is the Director-General of Research and Studies in the State Board of Antiquities and Heritage, Baghdad. He participated in the Nineveh excavation project, as well as the Babylon restoration. His association with the museum began in 1976 and he became the museum's director in 2003.

The Iraq Museum is "the only museum in the world that has history and culture of mankind in one spot," George explained.

After the museum looting, over 20 international archaeologists wrote a collection of essays for the book, "The Looting of the Iraq Museum, Baghdad -- The Lost Legacy of Ancient Mesopotamia," filled with 190 color illustrations. The book reconstructs the museum's collection and George wrote the forward. The inside cover of the book explains: "Iraq is a country of firsts: the earliest villages, cities, writing, poetry, epic literature, temples, codified religion, armies, warfare, world economy, and empire." Hence, Iraq is the Cradle of Civilization.

According to the book's front cover, a portion of the royalties from the sale of the book will be donated to the Iraqi State Board of Antiquities and Heritage.

In April 2003, looters plundered over 15,000 antiquities from the Iraq Museum and 5,000 of them were most precious objects, such as jewelry and figurines. Within two years looters unearthed over 8,000 artifacts from the country's 12,000 archaeological sites. The looting of archaeological sites is an ongoing problem, especially in Southern Iraq.

After his slide presentation, George showed an aerial photo of Umma - an archaeological site of eight square kilometers. The landscape contained thousands of pits. "These are from people digging there for antiquities," he added.

Although the new police system has recruited 1,700 people, they lack communication systems and cars.

The Museum Looters

How much money is in the antiquities market? According to one of the book's essays, "Theft of Time," by Angela M. H. Schuster, antiquities smuggling is "a multibillion-dollar business… [that] ranks third in international monetary terms, behind drug smuggling and weapons sales."

"There is a market for this material," George said. "There is a demand." He explained that there were three kinds of looters in the museum: people who took computers and TVs from the administrative area; people who had a good knowledge of antiquities; and finally, people who looted the storeroom, which contained boxes of cylinder seals and pottery.

The second category of looters knew which statues were authentic and which statues were replicas because they left some of the reproductions alone. Based on the museum team's findings, if a looter came for a specific antiquity in mind and he found the showcase empty, he shattered it. Perhaps, out of anger. "We believe it was planned…to get these important pieces…" George added.

Looters smashed numerous antiquities including a terra-cotta lion from Shaduppum / Tel Harmal, from the early second millennium B.C. Moreover, they beheaded statues, such as the Statue from Hatra. The body is on a rectangular pedestal, but a deep crack runs diagonal above the toes of the right foot. Finally, looters knocked statues into pieces, including a statue of King Nebuchadnezzar from the Assyrian Period. A photo shows the statue strewn across the museum floor - stone bits in between five broken pieces.

When the attacks on Iraq began, George could not return home for three days. On April 8, 2003 around 5 A.M. rows of shooting tanks surrounded the area. By 9:30 A.M. there were three people left in the museum and George was one of them. Although they prepared to descend into the museum's storerooms where it was safer, Iraqi militia were on the museum's front lawn.

After the three men locked the doors to the museum they crossed the Tigris River with the intention of coming back. By 3 P.M., they tried to cross the bridge but the shooting was so bad that people could not cross it safely. Helicopter gun ships flew above the museum.

In the interim, the museum team established headquarters at a hotel. While listening to the news, George heard about the looting of the museum.

During his lecture, George paused for a moment. He looked at the podium and he continued.

On Sunday, April 13, George and his colleagues met with U.S. officers, asking that the museum be protected.

"Is there anything left?" the officer asked.

They replied yes.

Three days later, on April 16, around 7:30 A.M., tanks rolled into the area and surrounded the museum.

What happened, over the course of two days, inside the museum that housed antiquities covering 10,000 years of human history?

The looters entered the building through high glass windows surrounded by fences. George and his colleagues found glasscutters, so it was clear that people had intentions of looting the museum. They smashed holes into doors and they trashed files that contained archival documents, negatives, slides, and photos. The museum's corridors looked like deserted areas.

From the Islamic galleries they pillaged wall paintings, but smashed other paintings. They took wooden door panels from Samarra, cuneiform tablets and important ivory. The cylinder and stamp seal collection -- 5,800 objects total -- pilfered by the looters.

Another major problem was flooding. Whenever there is any impact to the Central Bank, water flows. As a result, groundwater, insects, fungus and wet, wrapping material damaged the artifacts housed in the Central Bank's storage rooms. One example is the Mona Lisa of Nimrud, from the 9th -- 8th century B.C., which suffered severe head damage (Chapter VII, "Babylonians and Assyrians," by Julian Reade).

Antiquity Recoveries, Restoration and the Effects of Military Occupation

Despite the rampant looting some Iraqis recovered stolen antiquities and brought them back to the museum. With Colonel Matthew Bogdanos in charge of the recovery, they established a "no questions asked" policy for people who returned objects.

Two young, Iraqi boys told George that he could depend on their good honor. Soon after, they brought nine artifacts back in a van. Another man brought back the "fragment of a male statue with an inscription of Naram-Sin, copper alloy from near Bassetki, c 2250 B.C." ("From Village to Empire: The Rise of Sumer and Akkad," by Paul Collins).

George explained that the artist used the wax technique for this statue, but looters took it then greased it and then they suspended it in a septic tank. Upon its return to the museum, it was still covered in grease. George showed the audience photos of the statue before and after archaeologists removed the oily lubricant.

From March through May 2005, an Iraqi youth organization called the Protectors of Antiquities traveled the Iraq provinces. They gathered 2,000 looted objects, including 400 clay tablets. Some of these antiquities were from the Iraq Museum.

In June 2003, several Iraqi men returned a piece known as the Warka Vase. According to Diana McDonald's essay, "The Warka Vase," the 4,300-year-old alabaster antiquity "…is one of the most important objects in the Iraq Museum because it is one of the first illustrations of the ritual and religious practices that were the basis of Mesopotamian society, and come from the most important city in Mesopotamia in the fourth millennium B.C. -- Uruk, the modern Warka and biblical Erech." Looters damaged part of the pictorial designs near the top of the vase and the bottom of its cylindrical base.

The destruction of artifacts at this level affects what people learn about the evolution of humankind. In her essay, "The Ravages of War and the Challenge of Reconstruction," Selma Al-Radi explains that the significance of safekeeping antiquity collections "…is of vital importance, for without provenance an object loses its point of reference, its history, and its context."

Basically, how can people understand human development and communication if they lose historical objects?

Through the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), Interpol and ICOM, international customs agencies seized 300 objects in Syria, 1,300 most precious objects in Jordan and 300 tablets in Genoa, Italy. Iraq's Ministry of Culture seeks cooperation from Turkey and Iran in the location of smuggled antiquities and they await feedback from these countries.

During wartime, the loss of antiquities is the occupying power's responsibility. Artifacts that sustained damage from flooding, looters' gashes and blows need restoration. U.S. tanks blasted a deep hole into the "Assyrian Gate" of the Iraq Museum, so it needs rehabilitation also.

"We need to arrange these buildings in a way that these buildings will defend themselves," George said.

The museum has twenty galleries and security implementation is extensive. At present, there is still shooting on Haifa Street, located behind the museum. From time to time, they shoot at the museum guards. The museum remains closed to the public.

"We have to think of other ways to protect the antiquities in a way that can be most effective," he said.

According to Zainab Bahrani's essay, "The Fall of Babylon," the American coalition's construction of a helipad in the Ruins of Babylon caused severe damage. A couple examples are: "between May and August 2004, the wall of the Temple of Nabu and the roof of the Temple of Ninmah, both of the sixth century B.C., collapsed as a result of the helicopters. Nearby, heavy machines and vehicles stand parked on the remains of a Greek theater from the era of Alexander of Macedon."

Together with the World Monuments Fund, UNESCO and the Getty Center, George works to train Iraqis in conservation and restoration. In collaboration with Iraq's Ministry of Education, antiquity conservation involves educational programs for school-age youth, which will teach them how to protect their archaeological and cultural heritage. The Packard Foundation donated computer hardware to the museum used for the virtual construction of the museum's database; and the U.S. State Department provided funding for the restoration project.

Current museum projects include research potential, collection catalogues and security, as well as display design.

At present, more than half of the looted antiquities, which spanned 10,000 years of humankind, are still missing.

By Sonia Nettnin
www.scoop.co.nz

The following is so important to the Iraqi people, and the results of 26 months of "trying" by the U.S administration, is.........well.......extremely mediocre !

Quote:

http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld...n/11876169.htm
...........Electricity production dropped amid the violence of the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. Production rose to prewar levels that fall, and for a few months last year exceeded them.

But since November - except for a couple of spikes - they have been below prewar levels, according to State Department figures. They have yet to achieve the level that the former American administrator for Iraq, Paul Bremer, promised for June 2004.

Officials point out that production capacity is rising. Last week, peak production hovered around 4,500 megawatts, slightly surpassing what officials think Saddam's grid used to produce.

But demand has surged 28 percent over the past year as Iraqis have bought more appliances, shortening the hours power is available.

The government seeks a reliable schedule of three hours with the power on followed by three off to reach its goal of 12 hours daily, but for now there is inconsistency.

About $1.1 billion in U.S. funds has been spent on the electrical grid, and about another $3.2 billion is planned.

U.S. officials have said they realize they spent too much of 2003 focused on large projects by American contractors when they should have been seeking quick fixes with existing equipment. They say they didn't realize that the country's dilapidated network would need so many repairs, and that led to predictions of progress that falsely raised Iraqi hopes...............

This "happy talk" thread is a positive, but what has the Bush administration done right, in Iraq, in the U.S., and in the world? No one who is a Bush "team player" is ever fired. General Shinseki had it right in his pre-invasion criticism of planned troop levels.....and he was discredited by this administration. George Tenet at CIA had it wrong, and he received the highest civilian award from Bush, the Medal of "Freedom". Condi and Wolfowitz had it wrong, and Bush promoted both of them.

This is a thread that seems to put a spotlight on mediocre positives in the wake of the destruction wrought by a mediocre U.S. administration

Ustwo · 06-14-2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

The following is so important to the Iraqi people, and the results of 26 months of "trying" by the U.S administration, is.........well.......extremely mediocre !

Quote:

But demand has surged 28 percent over the past year as Iraqis have bought more appliances, shortening the hours power is available.

There isn't enough power....

because the Iraqi people are trying to raise their standard of living higher than it was under Sadam.

Yes, thats horrible

I'm sure when we pull out the troops everything will be hunky doory though

roachboy · 06-15-2005, 06:14 AM

a long article from this morning's washington post.

first, it was a bit beyond even my cynicism about the bush administration to think that when bush et al talk of "spreading freedom" what they really meant was spreading the current administration's curious notion of freedom, one that extends to kidnapping, illegal detentions without trial, and so on.

second, there is a tendency in coverage of iraq to act as though the iraqi people are passive--for example, earlier there was an article about rebuilding the iraqo oil industry that included remarks about the lack of training amongst iraqis--whcih would make you wonder how the iraqi oil indutry managed to function previously. maybe the iraqis need colonialism. the same argument has been floating around since the 1870s.

this patronizing attitude has curious effects--among them it that it sets the americans up to get played--and in this situation, i think that they really are being played by the kurds.

but read the article and decide for yourself.

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061401828.html

Quote:

Kurdish Officials Sanction Abductions in Kirkuk
U.S. Memo Says Arabs, Turkmens Secretly Sent to the North

By Steve Fainaru and Anthony Shadid
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, June 15, 2005; A01

KIRKUK, Iraq -- Police and security units, forces led by Kurdish political parties and backed by the U.S. military, have abducted hundreds of minority Arabs and Turkmens in this intensely volatile city and spirited them to prisons in Kurdish-held northern Iraq, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials, government documents and families of the victims.

Seized off the streets of Kirkuk or in joint U.S.-Iraqi raids, the men have been transferred secretly and in violation of Iraqi law to prisons in the Kurdish cities of Irbil and Sulaymaniyah, sometimes with the knowledge of U.S. forces. The detainees, including merchants, members of tribal families and soldiers, have often remained missing for months; some have been tortured, according to released prisoners and the Kirkuk police chief.

A confidential State Department cable, obtained by The Washington Post and addressed to the White House, Pentagon and U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, said the "extra-judicial detentions" were part of a "concerted and widespread initiative" by Kurdish political parties "to exercise authority in Kirkuk in an increasingly provocative manner."

The abductions have "greatly exacerbated tensions along purely ethnic lines" and endangered U.S. credibility, the nine-page cable, dated June 5, stated. "Turkmen in Kirkuk tell us they perceive a U.S. tolerance for the practice while Arabs in Kirkuk believe Coalition Forces are directly responsible."

The cable said the 116th Brigade Combat Team, which oversees security in Kirkuk, had urged Kurdish officials to end the practice. "I can tell you that the coalition forces absolutely do not condone it," Brig. Gen. Alan Gayhart, the brigade commander, said in an interview.

Kirkuk, a city of almost 1 million, is home to Iraq's most combustible mix of politics and economic power. Kurds, who are just shy of a majority in the city and are growing in number, hope to make Kirkuk and the vast oil reserves beneath it part of an autonomous Kurdistan. Arabs and Turkmens compose most of the rest of the population. They have struck an alliance to curb the ambitions of the Kurds, who have wielded increasing authority in a long-standing collaboration with their U.S. allies.

Some abductions occurred more than a year ago. But according to U.S. officials, Kirkuk police and Arab leaders, the campaign surged after the Jan. 30 elections consolidated the two main Kurdish parties' control over the Kirkuk provincial government. The two parties are the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan and the Kurdistan Democratic Party. The U.S. military said it had logged 180 cases; Arab and Turkmen politicians put the number at more than 600 and said many families feared retribution for coming forward.

U.S. and Iraqi officials, along with the State Department cable, said the campaign was being orchestrated and carried out by the Kurdish intelligence agency, known as Asayesh, and the Kurdish-led Emergency Services Unit, a 500-member anti-terrorism squad within the Kirkuk police force. Both are closely allied with the U.S. military. The intelligence agency is made up of Kurds, and the emergency unit is composed of a mixture of Kurds, Arabs and Turkmens.

The cable indicated that the problem extended to Mosul, Iraq's third-largest city and the main city in the north, and regions near the Kurdish-controlled border with Turkey.

The transfers occurred "without authority of local courts or the knowledge of Ministries of Interior or Defense in Baghdad," the State Department cable stated. U.S. military officials said judges they consulted in Kirkuk declared the practice illegal under Iraqi law.

Early on, the campaign targeted former Baath Party officials and suspected insurgents, but it has since broadened. Among those seized and secretly transferred north were car merchants, businessmen, members of tribal families, Arab soldiers and, in one case, an 87-year-old farmer with diabetes. A former fighter pilot said his interrogation in Irbil focused in part on whether he participated in the chemical weapons attack on the Kurdish city of Halabja in March 1988, in which an estimated 5,000 people died.

"I think it's about revenge," said the man, who identified himself as Abu Abdullah Jabbouri and who was released last week from the prison in Irbil.

Abdul Rahman Mustafa, the Kurdish governor of Kirkuk province, said the reports of abductions were "not true," although prisoners were often transferred to other provinces to relieve crowding. Jalal Jawhar, who heads the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan in Kirkuk, said some suspects were transferred to prisons in Irbil and Sulaymaniyah with the "complete cooperation" of the U.S. military.

"This is a normal procedure," Jawhar said.

Maj. Darren Blagburn, intelligence officer for the 116th Brigade Combat Team in Kirkuk, acknowledged that Arab and Turkmen detainees were surreptitiously transferred to Kurdish prisons without judicial oversight. He denied any U.S. role in the transfers and said they were necessary because of crowding in Kirkuk's jails.

Blagburn said he and other U.S. officers intervened with Kurdish leaders after discovering the practice nearly a month ago. He said he was "pretty sure" the practice had ended.

"We put a stop to it," Blagburn said, adding: "One of the myths is that it is spiraling out of control and nobody is doing anything about it and nobody cares. That is absolutely not true."

But across an already tense political landscape in Kirkuk, the campaign has deepened a climate of fear and intimidation.

Gen. Turhan Yusuf Abdel-Rahman, the chief of Kirkuk's police force, described the abductions as "political kidnappings" orchestrated by the Kurdish parties and their intelligence arms. Abdel-Rahman, who is Turkmen, said at least four Arabs and one Turkmen were seized last week but that "there may be others." On Sunday, two days after Blagburn's remarks, the U.S. military received reports that nine more Arabs and Turkmens were missing.

Abdel-Rahman said his officers were taking part in the majority of the abductions despite his attempts to stop the practice. He said 40 percent of Kirkuk's 6,120-member police force was loyal to the two Kurdish political parties. Acting on the parties' orders, uniformed officers carried out the abductions using the police department's cars and pickup trucks, he said.

"The main problem is that the loyalty to the police is to the parties and not the police force," said Abdel-Rahman, 41, a career officer. "They'll obey the parties' orders and disobey us."

Abdel-Rahman said he was deeply frustrated. "People ask us about their sons. What should I say to them?"
History of Struggle

The struggle for Kirkuk draws on the city's tortured history. In a policy known as Arabization, President Saddam Hussein drove out thousands of Kurds and replaced them with Arabs from areas to the south. That step was part of a larger strategy to depopulate the region of Kurds, an effort that peaked at the end of the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war. In all, at least 100,000 Kurds were killed and 2,000 villages destroyed as Hussein took revenge for Kurdish support of Iran during the conflict.

After Hussein's fall, the Kurdish parties seized control of key positions within Kirkuk's security forces, and the Jan. 30 elections put Kurds in control of the provincial government. They have also emerged as the U.S. military's main ally in the fight against Sunni Arab insurgents in the region, providing intelligence, support and manpower.

The U.S. military acknowledged picking up detainees in joint raids with the Kurdish-led police and handing them over. But military officials said the secret transfers were ordered by individual Iraqi police commanders. Blagburn said commanders affiliated with the Kurdistan Democratic Party dispatched detainees to an Irbil prison operated by the party's intelligence arm. Commanders affiliated with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan sent detainees to their party's facility in Sulaymaniyah, he said.

The State Department cable noted that U.S. commanders had denied complicity in the transfers, contrary to the perceptions of Arabs and Turkmens. "Coalition PR efforts to counter the story have been ineffective," stated the cable, which was written by the U.S. Embassy's regional coordinator.

"What can we do?" asked Jabbouri, the prisoner released last week. "The Americans are with the Kurds, together. They're walking along the same path."

Jabbouri said he was seized during a raid on his house the night of April 30 in the Kirkuk neighborhood of Rashid. A former fighter pilot who now works as a colonel in the Iraqi Interior Ministry, he pleaded with the Iraqi police and their U.S. colleagues that he had been wrongly targeted by them. The Americans, dressed in civilian clothes and flak jackets, ignored him, he said.

Jabbouri said he was seized with three other men, two of them air force veterans. The Americans photographed the detainees at the entrance to the U.S. air base in Kirkuk, then turned them over to the police, he said. Police placed bags over their heads and moved them between what seemed to be houses in Kirkuk and Irbil for several hours before taking them to the main prison the next day, he said.

There, Jabbouri said, he lived with about 50 men crammed into a 19-by-9-foot cell. The prisoners slept on a bare concrete floor. Conditions were so cramped, he said, the men divided the day into shifts. For three hours, half sat cross-legged while the others lay on their sides in rows and slept.

Jabbouri said he was questioned three times. He said he was treated respectfully. But others in his cell were beaten, he said. Some were forced to wear a 130-pound metal jacket and were beaten when they collapsed, he recalled. Jabbouri said that upon his release he met a fellow prisoner who displayed scars from wounds sustained when he was whipped with a wire cable, sometimes heated over a fire.

"Once you go inside, you never think you're going to come out," Jabbouri said.

Najat Hassan Karim, the Kurdistan Democratic Party representative in Kirkuk, denied that prisoners were mistreated. "They are lies," he said of the allegations. "There is no torture." U.S. officers said they had no evidence that any of the detainees had been tortured.
Flood of Complaints

The U.S. military first heard of the abductions in late February as families searching for their missing relatives began to appear at the provincial government seat in the city of Kirkuk. Lt. Col. Anthony Wickham, who heads a team of U.S. military advisers to the provincial government, said he initially thought the crimes were a recurrence of a wave of ransom-motivated kidnappings last year.

"Then it turned into a new twist: We found out our own brothers-in-arms were involved," Wickham said. By mid-April, the complaints "became a flood," he said. Wickham said he became convinced that the security forces were orchestrating the campaign after seeing letters from the prisoners in the north conveyed to their families by the International Committee of the Red Cross.

"Maybe it was naivete on our part, that people would be taken by the police, of all people, to another province," Wickham said. "When we realized what was happening, the first thing we said was, 'Stop. Don't you realize what you're doing, the tensions that you're creating?' The second thing we said was, 'You've got to get them out.' "

Last month, U.S. officers took a list of missing Arabs and Turkmens to the Kurdish parties and asked for their release. The Kurdistan Democratic Party freed 42 prisoners. The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan has yet to free any. With hundreds of prisoners still unaccounted for, many families said their search had become increasingly desperate. In one Kirkuk neighborhood, Arab residents approached a journalist's car to ask for help locating their missing relatives.

"When we go to the Americans, they send us to the police," said Osama Danouk, 24. "When we go to the police, they send us to the Americans, and so on, and so on."

His father, Danouk Latif Jassem, was seized March 2 when U.S. soldiers and Iraqi police stormed into his stationery shop. Jassem, blindfolded and handcuffed, was held for 12 days in the jail of the Emergency Services Unit. From there, his son said, he was taken to the prison in Irbil. Jassem's wife and 12 children have yet to communicate with him, save for two letters he sent through the Red Cross.

"My health is good," he said in one worn letter dated May 17 and folded eight times. "I hope that you don't worry too much about me. This is the will of God."

The family traveled on eight successive Thursdays to Irbil but was barred from visiting him, they said. They sought help from Arab tribal leaders, human rights organizations, the provincial government, the U.S. military and even the Kurdish parties.

"Four months and no one can help us," said Danouk, grabbing the Red Cross letter. "Just this."

U.S. and Iraqi officials said the abuses were an outgrowth of Kirkuk's dysfunctional police force, a product of patronage and partisan loyalties. The head of the Emergency Services Unit, Col. Khattab Abdullah Arif, is a Patriotic Union of Kurdistan loyalist and former Kurdish militia fighter with no previous police experience. The provincial police director general, Sherko Shakir Hakim, most recently worked as a taxi driver. Abdel-Rahman, Kirkuk's police chief, said Hakim refused a central government order to retire two weeks ago after the Kurdish parties promised to pick up his salary.

"With all this, we should be insane," Abdel-Rahman said, smiling darkly.

Abdel-Rahman said he was concerned that the Americans were being duped by the Kurds, who he said have cloaked what is effectively a power grab as a crackdown on the insurgents. Their strategy, he said, is to bolster their alliance with the Americans.

"Unfortunately, they have succeeded," he said.

Blagburn, the intelligence officer, said that even though the Emergency Services Unit is largely responsible for the secret transfers, it continues to provide valuable assistance in the counterinsurgency. Blagburn termed the unit "a very cooperative, coalition-friendly system."

"We know we can drop a guy in there and he'd be taken care of and he's safe," Blagburn said. "That's the reason why the ESU is used most of the time. That's basically the unit we can trust the most."

The State Department cable warned that the abuses by the emergency unit threaten to "seriously undermine [Iraqi government] and Coalition efforts in the region unless procedures are established to enforce Iraqi laws with regard to the transfer of detainees."

As he sat in his house, the fans idle on a scorching day during a blackout, Aissa Ramadan seethed over the seizure of most of his family.

He said they were taken March 17, when U.S. and Iraqi forces arrived at his family's compound in the village of Shahid Faleh, about 20 miles south of Kirkuk. Ramadan's three brothers and two sons were taken, along with his 87-year-old father, Ramadan Taha, who walks with a cane. "I wasn't there," he said. "If I was there, they would have taken me, too."

Three months later, the house still bore signs of the raid: The windows of the mud huts were shattered, closet doors were ripped from the hinges, wedding pictures and a television were broken. Ramadan accused the Iraqi forces of stealing $5,000 from under his father's bed and 450,000 Iraqi dinars ($300) from his mother's pocket. One soldier ripped a gold bracelet off his sister-in-law's wrist, he said. Another hit his mother, in her sixties, in the left shoulder with a rifle butt. Videos of his oldest son's wedding were confiscated.

Last month, Ramadan's two sons were released from the Emergency Services Unit's custody; one said he had been hit so hard in the kidney he was urinating blood. One of Ramadan's brothers is still in the jail. A policeman told the family they could pay $5,000 to get him freed. A friend who works with the police told Ramadan that his father and two other brothers were taken to Sulaymaniyah.

No one has heard from them since their transfer on March 23.

"If you could see our house on any day, you'd see that we're having funerals without the corpses," Ramadan said. "Children are looking for their fathers, wives don't know the fate of their husbands, and mothers are dying 40 times a day."

Ramadan said he had "anger in his heart."

"Tomorrow, I could recruit the entire tribe," he said. "I could block the street in Kirkuk and kidnap 40 Kurds. When you lose patience, you can do anything."

powerclown · 06-15-2005, 07:55 AM

Interesting article roachboy.

There indeed appears to be much going on behind the scenes in Iraq, away from the spotlight of Michael Jackson, and missing debutantes in paradise. One has to wonder sometimes why so much attention paid to absolute trivialities. What is the point of a tranquilized, distracted populace?

This is my take on the article: The Kurds and the Americans are trying to establish a 'beachhead' in the north. Northern Iraq is different from the rest of Iraq for 2 reasons: 1) it is mostly free from Sunni Arab insurgent violence, 2) it is politically stable and organized. In this particular instance, the Kurds seem to be trying to consolidate power in the north by jailing ex-Baathists and other troublemakers who they (and others) see as a threat to this stability. It makes sense to me. In laying out the framework for a democratic system, it seems the forces in the region are using the north as a starting point (one of several?), with the aim of eventually working their way south.

At the same time, while the Sunni Arabs are busy trying to destroy everything in their path in central and southern Iraq, the Kurds are trying to establish a 'firewall' to keep these guys from doing the same in the north. The Americans seem to be working with the Kurds to this end, and for good reason. It is also telling that the police force is working in accordance with the 2 major political parties there; they seem to be dividing their attention somewhere between local law enforcement (social order) and larger regional priorities (consolidation of power/base of operations).

roachboy · 06-15-2005, 08:19 AM

interesting take, powerclown.

another way of seeing the implications of the article is that the americans are not running the show, really, but instead have become one variable amongst others in a complex and fragile political game. what is curious is that the americans were heavily reliant on kurdish assistance in the context of the invasion, and so appear to be getting played by the group with whom the americans are in fact most closely aligned.

if this is correct, then i end up having to hope that you are more on point on iraq than i am, powerclown, because this is a logic of civil war in the worst possible mode for the americans--as a faction amongst others on the one hand, as a kind of elephant in the chinashop to be manipulated by any and all parties for their own ends on the other. this possibility is why i have been watching the bizarre manoevering of the iraqi regime with concern.

it seems to me that the iraqi police force embodies most of the contradictions of the situation in general. the relation of the american "training" and the factionalized relaity of the force being trained is also a good metaphor for the what i think the american position in all this in fact is.

of course, these are partial--like you say, it is hard to get a view of what is happening behind the carefully framed information circulating from the pentagon into the press pool.

on another level, relative to the american image internationally, i think this kind of development amongst the kurds functions as a powerful immanent critique of the american category "freedom"--dissent, real and possible, armed and discursive, a question of actions or one of belonging to a group that would enable potential action to be imputed to you--all equivalent, all outside the rule of law, all dealt with in what you have to admit are extra-legal means.

the counter would be to argue that this is a state of war. but i thought the war was over. i remember bush saying as much. if that is true, then the argument that would legitimate operating in a wholly extra-legal manner in the name of security should go out the window.

but this entire argument, no matter your position on it, rebounds back onto the bush administration and its particular choices justified in the name of this fictive "war on terror"....

and here the rendition article actually becomes relevant to the discussion.

06-08-2005, 02:32 PM	#86 (permalink)
chickentribs Addict Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night	You're right, powerclown, I sound a bit negative and should adopt a "wait and see" attitude. The cooperation between the two countries will certainly help economically for both, and less hostility is always a good thing in my book. The down side is the increasing nervousness of Turkey and Saudi Arabia, not to mention Pakistan. It is a great opportunity for the U.S. to exhibit some good faith effort in that part of the world if democracy is in fact all we want. As a country, we always seem to find a way to screw things up over there... __________________ Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W.

06-12-2005, 11:12 PM	#101 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	The latest: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050612...n_050612231004 This is an interesting more specific glimpse into what they are facing over there. I don't really see this as a negative or positive thing. More like, a transition. Oh to answer your question Powerclown, IMO, I think: stability (short answer) __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

06-14-2005, 10:42 AM	#109 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	So this is what this thread has come to, huh? See who can post more goodnews stories vs badnews stories. Damn. Time for some people to grow up. The thread is titled Iraq: Positive Developments. Another thread can be started called Iraq: Negative Regressions if it pleases. But argue the validity of the positive newsstories, don't try to counterpoint them with random negatives. Its useless and not at all conducive to the debate in this thread. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

06-14-2005, 10:55 AM	#110 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Hey Powerclown, Thanks for the article on the museum pieces. I always wondered what happened there. It's like a movie waitiing to happen. Maybe Vin Diesel, Angelina Jolie head an all-star cast of adventurers, curators, treasure hunters and looters in a film about how the treasures were stolen and then found. Sort of an updated Indiana Jones pic...ha! But seriously, theose are priceless relics and can be used in a positive manner in expressing national pride or as a rallying point too. Personally, I think some of these human interest stories an be helpful in the development of Iraq. Especially psychologically. For example, the Iraqi football (soccer) team was a great source of pride, hope and positivity for the Iraqi people. Yes I know the war sucks and people are dying but there are rays of hope out there. It's how we balance and temper the two that could make a real difference. There's enough negative stories out there for sure, no question nor denial of that. Just searching for positive stories takes a while while combing through the days reality of bombimngs, attacks etc. Cheers! __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

06-14-2005, 10:59 AM	#111 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Incidentally, the article Powerclown posted reprised how the whole fiasco of the missing museum pieces started in the first place. Poor US mililtary planning. But, they are ta least, trying to make up for their mistakes. I think that's significant. It's a good article, pretty balanced IMO. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

06-08-2005, 08:53 AM	#81 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	New Iraqi Marshlands Restoration & Clean Water Projects in Southern Iraq New York, 20 April 2005 The goal of restoring the environment and providing clean water and sanitation services to some 85,000 people living in the marshlands of southern Iraq moved a step closer today. At six pilot project sites in Thi-Qar, Basrah, and Missan governorates, it was announced that environmentally sound technologies (ESTs) will be implemented on a pilot basis to see how they perform in bringing drinking water, sanitation systems and wetland management skills to local people and communities. The “low tech” less polluting ESTs used will include restoration of reed beds and other marshland habitats that act as natural, water-filtration systems. Considered suitable from a technical and social perspective, the pilot sites were selected by Iraqi ministries and the Marsh Arab Forum, in consultation with UNEP. The locations are Al-Kirmashiya, Badir Al-Rumaidh, Al-Masahab, Al-Jeweber, Al-Hadam and Al-Sewelmat. The news from the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) marshlands project, funded by the Government of Japan, was presented to participants at an Italian government sponsored meeting on the marshlands, held in the margins of the 13th session of the UN Commission on Sustainable Development (CSD) in New York. The selection of the sites, the resulting on the ground activities and the wider application of the ESTs in the region, is a key stage in the implementation of UNEP’s multi-million dollar project to restore the Marshlands of Mesopotamia. The Iraqi Marshlands, considered by some to be the location of the Biblical Garden of Eden, were massively damaged in the late 20th Century, partly as a result of new dams on the Tigris and Eurphrates river systems and partly as a result of massive drainage operations by the previous Iraqi regime. In 2001, UNEP alerted the world to their plight when it released satellite images showing that 90 per cent of these fabled wetlands, home to rare and unique species like the Sacred Ibis and a spawning ground for Gulf fisheries, had been lost. Further studies, released in 2003, showed that an additional three per cent or 325 square kilometres had gone. Experts feared that the entire wetlands, home to a 5,000 year-old civilisation could disappear entirely by 2008. With the collapse of the former Iraqi regime in mid-2003, local residents began opening floodgates and breaching embankments in order to bring water back into the marshlands. “The challenge now is to restore the environment and provide clean water and sanitation services to the up to 85,000 people living there,” said Monique Barbut, Director of UNEP’s Division of Technology, Industry and Economics (DTIE), which is carrying out the $11 million project. Other project activities include the establishment of a Marshland Information Network, an Internet-based system that allows those with an interest in the region to share their ideas and strategies. An Arabic version of UNEP’s Environmentally Sound Technology Information System (ESTIS) serves as the basis for the network. Furthermore, a satellite-based observation system for marshland monitoring is now operational, and regular real-time reports will soon be available. The project is also helping to train the Iraqi authorities, both at national government and local levels. To date approximately 160 Iraqi experts have been trained in wetland management and restoration, remote sensing analysis and community-based resource management. Several other governments and non-governmental organizations are involved in the Iraqi Marshlands. The UNEP project is strengthening the coordination of these various efforts to ensure maximum benefit for the people and local environment. To this end, UNEP is playing a key role in the development of a master plan for the restoration and development of the marshlands, the focus of the side-event that was held here at the CSD in New York today. The UNEP project, “Support for Environmental Management of the Iraqi Marshlands”, is implemented through DTIE’s office in Japan, the International Environmental Technology Centre. Information about the project is available at: http://marshlands.unep.or.jp/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *I think it would be safe to say that Stalin never much cared about the environment.

06-08-2005, 01:07 PM	#83 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Ooops, I should have been more clear and specific. My post was in context of the Iran-Iraq War in which it was feared that the Shias in Iraq would ally with Iran but turns out no. In fact, Iraqi Shias fought against the Iranians. That is what I meant and referred to. In that scope, Khomenei is still a "Persian" shia and not an Arab one. His exile in Iraq was convenient for Saddam looking to keep Iran on edge. I did not know of the current govt. in Iraq to be comprised of Shias from Iran. This is new info for me (ah, the perils of studying history vs. current events). However, how this translates to how much or little influence Iran can impart over Iraq remains to be seen. Based on my cursory reading, IMO, probably not a whole lot. Or how about this? Perhaps Irans' interest in "cooperating" with Iraq is premised on: 1. Establishing regional hegemony - a good time to make a move in a power vacuum. 2. Also, to keep the US at bay. Keep 'em busy with Iraq and presumably out of Iran. 3. Maybe establish a buffer state between Iran and US-friendly Saudi Arabia In your opinion, do you think the Shias (in Iraq) want a theocracy? Iraq has always kind of leaned secular (I realize that was under sunni control) but are Shias and (Kurds even), leaning towards theocratic state? I'm not so sure, I don't know enough about it at this moment. I'm not sure the 60% shias are so monolithic. Although I am against the war, I believe there are Iraqis who would ally with the US. Don't know about numbers though. I just don't believe things are so black and white you know?

06-08-2005, 05:54 PM	#89 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Wow, this is a very BAD idea. The British tried the same sht back inthe day with an Assyrian militia under their control. Everything I've read (academic, policy papers, expert,not journalist, analysis) totally seems to be ignored. My professor was telling us the other day how when he advised Reagan, all his advice was never taken. Same with alot of the visiting academics at our school including Warren Christopher (damn, I wish I took his class). But the major trend I noticed, is that the policies implemented never seem to be based on the policy advisors. Seems foolish and wasteful to me ( a poor student who obviously doesn't have the inside track to how Washington works). Quick! Issue me a temp ban! I need to study but I can't resist talking with you guys! I am actually trying to finish up my 15 page paper on the British experience in Iraq during the Mandates Period (I have one complete page done). It's due by 2:30PM Thursday PST. Well, at least I have all my sources and citations tagged. My thesis is pretty tight (I think), I just need to type, type away. I think a page an hour plus two more hours for final edit should do it. If anyone's interested, I can post updates every few hours or so, then the final. Sht! Gotta go, go, go! *AhGAHRGHGAHHGRH!!1/.......

06-08-2005, 06:00 PM	#90 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	The thing about the Sunnis is that they're miffed about losing power/control they've enjoyed since the Ottoman era. The trick, IMO, is how to power share among the various groups that is meaningful and productive. No doubt, the Sunnis need to relinquish some power, but not be marginalized either. That's a major concern, making sure no one is shut out of the political process. Especially for legitimacy sake. The key is careful implementation of political institutions and of course, securing the country and taking care of infrastructure and basic needs. Turn the power and water on and the people will be more helpful etc.etc. Secure the raods so people can get to work and school. Hire locals when contracting work. not paying some kid from Iowa $80,000 to drive a truck for a month. Hire a local for $1000. (average Iraqi salary - $6 a day) [I will provide source later] Talk about incentive! And, we, the American taxpayer will save loads!! Ok, now I really have to get back.

06-09-2005, 07:03 PM	#93 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Hi guys, I'm back now. I finally finished my paper in the wee hours this morning and handed it in. Ok, for today's positive development: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._re_mi_ea/iraq Basically, Iraq's president, a Sunni Kurd, has extended political incorporation to Sunni Arabs in drafting a constitution by adding 25 more Sunnis to the constitution committee. Now, obviously there is still a lot of tensions, infighting (sectarian) and alot of work to be done and the situation is still tenuous, BUT, this is a good first step. It's what some of us have been talking about around these threads. Interesting note: Sunni Arab inclusion has been heavily pushed for by the US and EU.

06-10-2005, 08:34 AM	#94 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	That link goes to the article: "At Least 17 Bodies Found in Iraqi Town." I suppose if you were an insurgent - or a sympathizer - this would be a positive development. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *To elaborate on the above theme: Shi’ites Offer Sunnis Bigger Role in Iraq Constitution 26/05/2005 By Diala Saadeh BAGHDAD, May 26 (Reuters) - Iraq’s Shi’ite-led government is reaching out to Sunni Arabs to ensure they play a bigger role in writing a new constitution, but this will not delay the process, the head of parliament’s constitutional committee said. Humam al-Hamoudi told Reuters in an interview the constitution would be ready by an Aug. 15 deadline even if Sunni Arabs were given time to choose representatives to help draft the document. "We are very determined to finish drawing up the constitution before the deadline," Hamoudi said. Iraq’s parliament has appointed a 55-member committee to oversee the writing of the document, but it contains only two Sunni Arabs. Although they make up around 20 percent of the population and dominated Iraq during the rule of Saddam Hussein, Sunni Arabs have been left with minimal representation in parliament because many of them boycotted the Jan. 30 elections. There are 17 Sunni Arab lawmakers in Iraq’s 275-member parliament. But leading Sunni Arab groups said this month they wanted a greater role in parliament, and Washington has urged Iraq’s government to reach out to Sunnis to help defuse sectarian tension and undermine the Sunni Arab-dominated insurgency. Hamoudi said he had talked to Sunni Arab groups and they would select representatives to serve on the expanded commission. "They are likely to hold partial elections within the Sunni provinces to pick their representatives for the committee," he said. "We need to discuss with the Sunnis what they demand for better participation. We will continue meeting them until we strike an agreement for the sake of the nation." Under Iraq’s political timetable, once a constitution is written it must be approved by a referendum. If it is approved, new general elections will be held by the end of the year. The rules of the referendum state that if a majority of voters in three provinces reject the constitution, it will be vetoed even if an overall majority of Iraqis approves the document. The clause was inserted at the insistence of the Kurds, who want to ensure the constitution does not encroach upon their autonomy in northern Iraq, but it could give Sunni Arabs the chance to reject the document if they feel they have not been given adequate participation in drafting it. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

06-10-2005, 04:13 PM	#95 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	!@#$&% Damn! scratches head* Ooops, I obviously posted incorectly. Thanks powerclown for correcting it. The article you posted is the one I was refering to.

06-10-2005, 09:31 PM	#97 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Thanks for your kind words and concern. I haven't been able to "rest" too much yet, as I have finals next week and one last paper (on globalization - good or bad?). But, I really can't complain though

06-11-2005, 08:06 PM	#98 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	NATO to Expand Training of Iraqis By Mark Mazzetti, Times Staff Writer June 10, 2005 BRUSSELS — NATO plans to enlarge its efforts to improve Iraq's fledgling security forces by opening a base near Baghdad that will train 1,000 Iraqi officers each year, defense ministers gathered here said Thursday. By September, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization plans to have completed a headquarters at Rustimiya near Baghdad, where alliance officers will run the training program to help quell the country's violent insurgency. The headquarters will be funded jointly by NATO, the Iraqi government and the U.S. military's training command in Iraq, which is led by U.S. Army Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus. The general was in Brussels on Thursday to discuss plans for the training mission. NATO has 121 officers in Baghdad training Iraqi forces from the Defense and Interior ministries, alliance officials said. They expect that number to grow over the summer. It has been nearly a year since NATO pledged to participate in the training of Iraqi troops. Its mission accounts for a fraction of the overall training effort, which the Pentagon considers its top priority in Iraq. The alliance also plans to expand its role in Afghanistan. NATO troops operate mostly in and around Kabul, the capital, and in western Afghanistan, but there are plans to push the alliance-led International Security Assistance Force into southern Afghanistan, which was once the Taliban's base. The ISAF troops, who now number more than 8,000, have been operating in Afghanistan since 2002 under a mandate from the United Nations, though for the first two years they limited their mission primarily to Kabul. NATO took command of the force in 2003. Also Thursday, the alliance made official its decision to participate in a mission airlifting African peacekeeping troops into Sudan's war-torn Darfur region. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld praised NATO's efforts to operate beyond its traditional European borders, saying such missions help the alliance remain relevant in the post-Cold War world. "NATO has great promise today, greater than in some time," he said. Rumsfeld left Brussels on Thursday evening, cutting short by a day his weeklong trip through Asia and Europe. Pentagon officials traveling with him said he had shortened the trip in part to be in Washington for the visit of South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun, who will meet today with President Bush. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - *Note that this is Officer training as opposed to basic soldier training. It is widely acknowleded that after the Baath party was removed, along went the Iraqi officer corps with it. Rebuilding positions of military leadership is of vital importance. With leadership comes the foundation of an effective security force able to deal with the insurgency.

06-12-2005, 10:36 AM	#100 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	I'm sure you are aware that Pincus is possibly one of the most liberal, anti-Bush reporters in Washington. roachboy, given the stakes in Iraq, I'd be curious to hear your (or anyone else's) idea of what would be in the best interests of: 1) The Iraqis 2) The Region 3) The rest of the world What kind of country (geo-politically speaking) do you all want to see Iraq become?

06-13-2005, 10:05 AM	#102 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Decent article jorgelito, thanks. As the Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari (Iraq's first democratically elected Prime Minister in 50 years) said himself recently, it is difficult to reconstruct what took 35 years to destroy. I also read with interest your highly detailed response in the other thread in regards to future stability in Iraq. Thorough post indeed.

06-13-2005, 10:23 AM	#103 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	*A positive sign from the new Iraqi government in regards to the formation of their new Constitution. A call for moderation from the highest levels, amidst fears over the creation of another fundamentalist regime in the Middle East. Kudos to the Chicago Tribune for making the right decision to publish the article. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Shiites Want to Limit Islamic References in Iraqi Constitution 27/05/2005 Chicago Tribune - By Liz Sly BAGHDAD, Iraq - (KRT) - Shiite legislators have decided not to push for a greater role for Islam in the new Iraqi constitution out of concern that the contentious issue will inflame religious sentiments and deepen sectarian tensions. Instead, the United Iraqi Alliance, the Shiite coalition that won the most seats in January’s elections, will advocate retaining the moderate language of Iraq’s temporary constitution that was drawn up under the auspices of the American occupation authority. Humam Hamoudi, the Shiite cleric who heads the 55-member constitutional committee that will draft the new document, said that any attempt to debate the issue of Islamic law could ignite a firestorm of competing sectarian demands and that the brief references to Islam in three paragraphs of the temporary constitution should be left untouched. "These paragraphs represent the middle ground between the secularists and those who want Islamic government, and I think the wisest course of action is to keep them as they are," he said in an interview at his Baghdad home. "Opening up the subject for discussion would provoke religious sentiments in the street." The decision is likely to defuse what could have been one of the most divisive and rancorous issues confronting Iraqi lawmakers as they begin writing the constitution, the main function of the National Assembly elected in January. But many controversial issues remain to be settled, and it appears increasingly unlikely that the assembly will be able to complete the constitution by the Aug. 15 deadline. Asked to rate the chances that the constitution will be finished on time, Humam replied "30 percent." More than halfway into the time allotted, the real work of drafting the document has not yet begun and further delays are expected as politicians wrangle over ways to include members of the marginalized Sunni community in the process. If the constitution is not ready by August, lawmakers can ask for a six-month extension, pushing back the date of the next election, scheduled for December, into the middle of next year. According to the temporary constitution, or Transitional Administrative Law, if two-thirds of voters in any three provinces vote against the constitution, the document will be scrapped, fresh elections will be held for a new assembly and the process will start all over again. Sunni leaders have already warned that they will call on Sunnis in the four provinces where they are a majority to veto any constitution drawn up without Sunni participation. But including Sunnis could be just as problematic. It took more than three months to negotiate the formation of a government that includes six Sunnis, and no one is taking any bets on how long it will take to reach a satisfactory formula for the constitutional committee. "We have agreed that the TAL will be the basis for our discussions. We can edit it, more or less," said Fuad Massoum, the committee’s Kurdish deputy chairman. "This way we can easily reach an agreement and finish the job on time." The TAL says Islam should be considered as "a source of legislation," but not the sole source. The words were a point of contention during the drafting of the law, when Shiites, including new Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, pushed hard for Islam to be recognized as the only source of law. "People are worried about the role of Islam. I think this will be the least time-taking issue because it’s been defined in the TAL and we accept that," said Ali al-Dabbagh, a Shiite legislator on the constitutional committee. He said as much as two-thirds of the TAL could be adopted in the new constitution. Bringing Sunnis into the process will likely complicate the process, however. A Sunni bloc formed last weekend to represent Sunnis comprises mostly religious parties and clergymen, and they called for Islam to be given a stronger role in the constitution. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

06-13-2005, 09:22 PM	#106 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	::steps on both hands to prevent a response to Powerclown::

06-14-2005, 08:08 AM	#107 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	One of the earliest memories I have of the televised days immediately following Hussein's demise was watching a looter's pickup truck stuffed to the gills with what appeared to be museum pieces. Someone managed to get a camera into one of these looted museums, where one could see aisle after aisle of empty display cases and shelves, shattered glass everywhere. It is amazing to me to learn that so many of the pieces are being recollected. This must be unprecedented in the history of warfare - historical items actually being returned to the scene of a battle. Well done to whoever is responsible for finding these things. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Thousands of Stolen Iraqi Artifacts Found* By Betsy Pisik THE WASHINGTON TIMES NEW YORK -- Roughly half of the 15,000 items looted from the National Museum of Iraq in 2003 have been recovered, said its director, who thanked American officials for assistance in restoring the building. Archaeologist and museum director Donny George said law-enforcement and customs officials in the United States had intercepted at least 1,000 artifacts stolen from the museum in the chaotic days after the fall of Baghdad. Another 3,000 or so artifacts have been found and secured in Jordan, Syria, Italy and other nations, said the museum director, an Iraqi-born Christian. However, he said, the governments of Iran and Turkey -- both neighbors with porous land borders -- have failed to respond to legal and diplomatic inquiries. Many stolen Iraqi artifacts or their counterfeits still are advertised on EBay and change hands through channels known to collectors. U.S. law-enforcement and customs agencies say they are on the lookout for antiquities but cannot provide current information on interceptions or prosecutions. U.S. troops, journalists and contractors returning from Iraq are among those who have been caught with forbidden souvenirs -- mostly paintings and small seals and cylinders that can be carved exquisitely and hidden easily. "We are grateful to our friends and dear brothers" for intercepting the artifacts, Mr. George said Tuesday evening during a slide presentation to the National Arts Club in New York. Much of Baghdad was plunged into chaos after U.S. troops captured the capital on April 9, 2003. As Iraqi troops fled, looters and professional thieves quickly overran the museum, which was left unguarded. Mr. George -- like many Iraqis and much of the American press -- blamed U.S. military planners at the time for ignoring the history and culture of the country they had come to liberate. But the museum director was much more conciliatory at the National Arts Club, where he told a well-heeled audience that he was "satisfied" with the level of financial and technical support to rebuild the shattered museum. Asked whether the Pentagon had offered an apology for failing to guard the museum, Mr. George said U.S. assistance allowed his staff to rebuild the museum's offices and galleries, install new security systems and create computer networks where there had been none. "I will take that as an apology," he said. Mr. George, the director of research for the State Board of Antiquities under Saddam Hussein, was installed as director of the National Museum of Iraq by the U.S.-run Coalition Provisional Authority that governed the country from early 2003 until last summer. He remained in that post under the interim government and has been retained by the transitional government of Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari. He also has the support of the international antiquities specialists. "He's a real professional, one of the archaeologists in the Middle East," said McGuire Gibson, a professor of Mesopotamian archaeology at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute who visited Iraq's museum and archaeological sites in 2003 for the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization and the National Geographic Society. Mr. George said much of the thievery was done by insiders, but told The Washington Times this week that Iraqi and museum authorities have made little effort to find the culprits. "I am asking [U.S. investigators] to tell me who they have caught," he said with a shrug. The museum is trying to establish a database of the looted artifacts, in part to make them more difficult to sell. The FBI, Interpol and many museums also have put up images of the missing artifacts. In the meantime, Mr. George said, he has asked governments to document and hold on to what they intercept until Iraq is more stable. Thousands of missing pieces are presumed to be inside Iraq, where a corps of mostly untrained volunteers has been scouring markets in search of the missing antiquities. The museum also has been fortified with tall concrete walls and welded gates that enclose the galleries, but Mr. George said it is not safe to reopen the doors to visitors. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

06-14-2005, 12:58 PM	#112 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well gee, stevo, if there was only one type of article posted in the thread, there wouldnt be much debate would there? posting from a contrary viewpoint is part of the debate--particularly since this happyface thread is basically set up not only to provide happyface infotainment, but also to trivialize the many many problems with the iraq adventure. i posted my reasons for putting the articles that i have up in here: i consider those reasons to be legitimate--and will do so until it bores me to continue. i understand that you might prefer a limbaugh style "debate' in which everyone agress up front, the opposition is systematically excluded and you get to pretend you have access to a range of perspectives which magically mirror your own. there are fundamental disagreements aborad in the land--you can run away from them into the illusion of unanimity if you like, but that you run away does not mean they are not present. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-14-2005, 04:01 PM	#114 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	I tend to agree with Stevo here. Roachboy, that rendition article doesnt even deal with Iraq. I think a proper responce would be anything discrediting the articles posted or any points made on the subject.

06-14-2005, 05:59 PM	#115 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i think the types of information talk by each other, mantus: i see very little anywhere directly critiquing press pool releases and others concerning specific actions the us has done to begin rebuilding iraq. on its own terms, i dont have any real interest in attacking the stories that powerclown posts--in fact i find them interesting. the objection i have is that these stories are posted to the exlcusion of wider questions, particularly about the war itself. so in there is the link to the rendition article--but its a bit of a stretch--my apologies for that part. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-15-2005, 07:55 AM	#119 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Interesting article roachboy. There indeed appears to be much going on behind the scenes in Iraq, away from the spotlight of Michael Jackson, and missing debutantes in paradise. One has to wonder sometimes why so much attention paid to absolute trivialities. What is the point of a tranquilized, distracted populace? This is my take on the article: The Kurds and the Americans are trying to establish a 'beachhead' in the north. Northern Iraq is different from the rest of Iraq for 2 reasons: 1) it is mostly free from Sunni Arab insurgent violence, 2) it is politically stable and organized. In this particular instance, the Kurds seem to be trying to consolidate power in the north by jailing ex-Baathists and other troublemakers who they (and others) see as a threat to this stability. It makes sense to me. In laying out the framework for a democratic system, it seems the forces in the region are using the north as a starting point (one of several?), with the aim of eventually working their way south. At the same time, while the Sunni Arabs are busy trying to destroy everything in their path in central and southern Iraq, the Kurds are trying to establish a 'firewall' to keep these guys from doing the same in the north. The Americans seem to be working with the Kurds to this end, and for good reason. It is also telling that the police force is working in accordance with the 2 major political parties there; they seem to be dividing their attention somewhere between local law enforcement (social order) and larger regional priorities (consolidation of power/base of operations).

06-15-2005, 08:19 AM	#120 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	interesting take, powerclown. another way of seeing the implications of the article is that the americans are not running the show, really, but instead have become one variable amongst others in a complex and fragile political game. what is curious is that the americans were heavily reliant on kurdish assistance in the context of the invasion, and so appear to be getting played by the group with whom the americans are in fact most closely aligned. if this is correct, then i end up having to hope that you are more on point on iraq than i am, powerclown, because this is a logic of civil war in the worst possible mode for the americans--as a faction amongst others on the one hand, as a kind of elephant in the chinashop to be manipulated by any and all parties for their own ends on the other. this possibility is why i have been watching the bizarre manoevering of the iraqi regime with concern. it seems to me that the iraqi police force embodies most of the contradictions of the situation in general. the relation of the american "training" and the factionalized relaity of the force being trained is also a good metaphor for the what i think the american position in all this in fact is. of course, these are partial--like you say, it is hard to get a view of what is happening behind the carefully framed information circulating from the pentagon into the press pool. on another level, relative to the american image internationally, i think this kind of development amongst the kurds functions as a powerful immanent critique of the american category "freedom"--dissent, real and possible, armed and discursive, a question of actions or one of belonging to a group that would enable potential action to be imputed to you--all equivalent, all outside the rule of law, all dealt with in what you have to admit are extra-legal means. the counter would be to argue that this is a state of war. but i thought the war was over. i remember bush saying as much. if that is true, then the argument that would legitimate operating in a wholly extra-legal manner in the name of security should go out the window. but this entire argument, no matter your position on it, rebounds back onto the bush administration and its particular choices justified in the name of this fictive "war on terror".... and here the rendition article actually becomes relevant to the discussion. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite