Canada backs out of North American missile defence system - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

NCB · 03-04-2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

You really are broken record, you know?

I knew you'd get a kick out of that one

OFKU0 · 03-04-2005, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

That's just who we are. We are a compassionate people who won't let our neighbors to the North suffer because the ruling party would rather spend the money on their healthcare debacle or any other govt program.

You know, somehow I understand what you are saying. Americans are a compassionate and a passioned people. So are Canadians. But your administration isn't showing much in terms of patience since the inception of the "with us or against us" slogan to the masses.

Sometimes the U.S just acts, in a split of a second in rebuttal, with such an 'in your face' attitude of condemnation of any sort not to their liking. Good grief. The rest of the world gonna sign on to be led down the garden path by the U.S and be it's honored "allies"?

We are at a defining moment in Canadian history as well the world's and Canada is vying for a global position to take herself into the future and it's betting on the diplomatic, peaceful and respectful reputation in common with the rest of the world. If that means Canada get's screwed by the U.S over trade etc,..because it doesn't comply like a lagdog, then so be it. Maybe 50 years from now the world won't have anything to do with the U.S. Then what?

NCB · 03-05-2005, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

You know, somehow I understand what you are saying. Americans are a compassionate and a passioned people. So are Canadians. But your administration isn't showing much in terms of patience since the inception of the "with us or against us" slogan to the masses.

Sometimes the U.S just acts, in a split of a second in rebuttal, with such an 'in your face' attitude of condemnation of any sort not to their liking. Good grief. The rest of the world gonna sign on to be led down the garden path by the U.S and be it's honored "allies"?

We are at a defining moment in Canadian history as well the world's and Canada is vying for a global position to take herself into the future and it's betting on the diplomatic, peaceful and respectful reputation in common with the rest of the world. If that means Canada get's screwed by the U.S over trade etc,..because it doesn't comply like a lagdog, then so be it. Maybe 50 years from now the world won't have anything to do with the U.S. Then what?

I think that therein lies the problem.

You're right, Canada and the rest of the world are facing a critical moment in history. Diplomacy is only successful if it's failure can be backed up by force. Ask Neville Chamberlain how well peaceful diplomacy works. Canada is following the ways of "Old Europe", a path that leads only to irrelavency.

james t kirk · 03-05-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

I think that therein lies the problem.

You're right, Canada and the rest of the world are facing a critical moment in history. Diplomacy is only successful if it's failure can be backed up by force. Ask Neville Chamberlain how well peaceful diplomacy works. Canada is following the ways of "Old Europe", a path that leads only to irrelavency.

Well, truth be told, the European Union is up and coming while the American Empire is in decline. The EU economy is now larger than that of the USA's.

How do you like those apples.

If Canada were to forge closer ties with the EU, so much the better as far as I am concerned. We need to lessen our dependence on trade with Uncle Sam and Europe and Asia are definitely where it is at.

Socially, Canadians think more like Europeans, and Economically, the US has been in trouble for 5 years and showing no signs of changing anytime soon.

Canada should join the EU in fact. Wouldn't that be a kick!!

NCB · 03-05-2005, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james t kirk

Well, truth be told, the European Union is up and coming while the American Empire is in decline. The EU economy is now larger than that of the USA's.

How do you like those apples!!

You shouldn't be asking me how I like them apples, you should be asking the Germans, with their 12.4% unemployment rate and less than 1% growth (down from a robust 1.8% in the first two quaters of '04). You should ask the French with their 9.4% unemployment rate, though their growth rate is at is booming at 2.3%, the largest ROG in years.

Quote:

Canada should join the EU in fact. Wouldn't that be a kick!!

What, is your 7% unemployment rate not up to European standards? Perhaps if y'all did join, Canada can take some pointers from France on how to bump up a ROG from 1.7%.

El Kaz · 03-05-2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

You shouldn't be asking me how I like them apples, you should be asking the Germans, with their 12.4% unemployment rate and less than 1% growth (down from a robust 1.8% in the first two quaters of '04). You should ask the French with their 9.4% unemployment rate, though their growth rate is at is booming at 2.3%, the largest ROG in years.

Using the numbers of the currently weakest economies of the E.U. to "prove" to overall economic weakness of the E.U. is akin to pointing out the very flawed economy of, say, California to "prove" an economical weakness of the whole states.

james t kirk · 03-06-2005, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

You shouldn't be asking me how I like them apples, you should be asking the Germans, with their 12.4% unemployment rate and less than 1% growth (down from a robust 1.8% in the first two quaters of '04). You should ask the French with their 9.4% unemployment rate, though their growth rate is at is booming at 2.3%, the largest ROG in years.

What, is your 7% unemployment rate not up to European standards? Perhaps if y'all did join, Canada can take some pointers from France on how to bump up a ROG from 1.7%.

Bottom line mon ami -the EU GDP is greater than that of the USA's.

NCB · 03-14-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james t kirk

Well, truth be told, the European Union is up and coming while the American Empire is in decline. The EU economy is now larger than that of the USA's.

How do you like those apples.

If Canada were to forge closer ties with the EU, so much the better as far as I am concerned. We need to lessen our dependence on trade with Uncle Sam and Europe and Asia are definitely where it is at.

Socially, Canadians think more like Europeans, and Economically, the US has been in trouble for 5 years and showing no signs of changing anytime soon.

Canada should join the EU in fact. Wouldn't that be a kick!!

http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=9&aid=18646

KMA-628 · 03-14-2005, 10:50 AM

NCB -

Good find on the article, it shows the basic flaw in using GDP as an economic indicator.

While the EU GDP might be greater than the GDP of the US, the per-capita GDP would be the more correct number to use for a comparison.

All EU member countries, minus one (Luxemburg) have significantly lower per-capita GDP than the US (Which is #2 in the world). While I couldn't find an overall "per-capita GDP" for the EU, if you were to average all EU member countries, it would fall well below the per-capita GDP of the U.S. (which is an average of the 50 states). LINK

It is a bogus comparison.

Another economic indicator is the rate of inflation. Almost all EU member countries have a higher rate of inflation than the US (stats at the same link as above).

Almost every economic comparison I looked at, comparing the EU with the U.S., puts the U.S. on top (using averages, since there aren't "total" EU numbers yet).

Manx · 03-14-2005, 11:00 AM

Missing from the euobserver article is how productivity in the EU has far outpaced the US while the average number of hours in the EU has significantly dropped and the average number of hours in the US has consistently increased.

That this fundamental aspect is missing in the study cited in the euobserver tells me the study is essentially nonsense.

A cursory google search brings up this:

Quote:

If we look at the standard of living (which is the revenue per head) thirty years ago, the EU was about thirty per cent behind the US. If we compare this to the situation today, we realise that it has not changed - the EU is still thirty per cent behind. So it looks like Europe is stuck fairly far behind the US and the question is - why didn't the EU catch up?

The first point I make in my paper is that you have to look behind the basic figures, and then you realise that two things have happened. One is that the productivity (i.e. production per hour) in Europe was roughly thirty per cent lower than in the US in 1970. If you look at today's situation, and particularly the EU-15, you can see that the productivity gap has nearly entirely been made up. There are even some EU countries where productivity is higher than in the US, like in France. The catch-up vis-a-vis the US has been tremendous, with a productivity growth nearly double that of the US.

So how can this be? How can GDP still be lower per person although productivity has nearly caught up with US levels? The answer is simple: what has declined are the hours worked per person. A first explanation for this will be higher levels of unemployment in Europe, early retirement and other things like this. So, if this is the explanation, then that's not very good news for Europe. However, if you look at the figures more closely, you realise that much of it comes from the hours worked per full time worker. So this means more days of vacation per full time worker, fewer hours worked per week. People go to the countryside on Friday night rather than on Saturday. A first analysis thus shows that a lot of it is down to an increase in leisure time that the Europeans have taken.

Does this account for the majority of this gap?

Well, for some countries like France, increased leisure time accounts for most of the GDP gap. But in general, there has been a sharp decline in hours worked per full time worker in Europe. These figures predate policy measures such as the introduction of the 35 hour week in France.

So, if you want to caricature the situation, you could say that the Europeans have been much more productive than people in the US, but rather than getting the benefits in the form of higher income, they have chosen more free time.

http://www.euractiv.com/Article?tcmu...type=Interview

Yakk · 03-14-2005, 11:15 AM

NCB, a nation that takes 2-4% of it's unemployed and puts them in the armed forces and jail tends to have a lower unemployment rate. =)

You do realize that, unlike every other western nation, the USA actually has military and jail populations large enough to significantly swing it's employement/unemployment rates?

Canada could drive the unemployed into crime with well-designed social programs and engeneering, and lower our unemployment rate! That sounds like a solution!

Then, we could make a military full of uneducated unemployable people, and send them off to be shot! Not only would those people be removed from the unemployment lines, this would allow us to funnel money into large government contracts, from which our politicians could get jobs and/or campaign contributions, and produce tonnes of goods that are destroyed! It's a perfect Keynsian solution, dig holes and bury the poor in them. . .

( WARNING: hyperbole levels reaching critical! ;-) )

Ayep, Germany and France's economies need some work. Of course, unlike the USA, they don't have a 5%+ annual current account deficit with no end in sight. They are, last I checked, actually running surplusses.

NCB · 03-14-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

NCB, a nation that takes 2-4% of it's unemployed and puts them in the armed forces and jail tends to have a lower unemployment rate. =)

You do realize that, unlike every other western nation, the USA actually has military and jail populations large enough to significantly swing it's employement/unemployment rates?

Canada could drive the unemployed into crime with well-designed social programs and engeneering, and lower our unemployment rate! That sounds like a solution!

Then, we could make a military full of uneducated unemployable people, and send them off to be shot! Not only would those people be removed from the unemployment lines, this would allow us to funnel money into large government contracts, from which our politicians could get jobs and/or campaign contributions, and produce tonnes of goods that are destroyed! It's a perfect Keynsian solution, dig holes and bury the poor in them. . .

( WARNING: hyperbole levels reaching critical! ;-) )

Ayep, Germany and France's economies need some work. Of course, unlike the USA, they don't have a 5%+ annual current account deficit with no end in sight. They are, last I checked, actually running surplusses.

And yet, their economies are in the toilet and our isn't. Go figure

Manx · 03-14-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCB

And yet, their economies are in the toilet and our isn't. Go figure

Um. Not even close.

NCB · 03-14-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manx

Um. Not even close.

Ok

Janey · 03-14-2005, 12:40 PM

wow. such exquisite insight. The preceding is an example of how incomplete statistics can be wielded in either side of an arguement. Also, it shows how an arguement can degenerate into gain-saying when the statistics are borne out to be faulty.

tecoyah · 03-14-2005, 12:57 PM

Perhaps it is time to get back on topic....before things degrade any further

NCB · 03-14-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey

wow. such exquisite insight. The preceding is an example of how incomplete statistics can be wielded in either side of an arguement. Also, it shows how an arguement can degenerate into gain-saying when the statistics are borne out to be faulty.

Which stats do you believe are faulty? Also, do you agree or disagree with the article stating that the EU is a good 20 years behind us economically.

Dyze · 03-14-2005, 10:44 PM

Maybe the EU is 20 years behind the US as you say (which is no true). But with the last growth, the EU has the potential to become a even bigger economic power. Whereas the US isolation only leads to one way: down.

03-14-2005, 10:50 AM	#129 (permalink)
KMA-628 ....is off his meds...you were warned. Location: The Wild Wild West	NCB - Good find on the article, it shows the basic flaw in using GDP as an economic indicator. While the EU GDP might be greater than the GDP of the US, the per-capita GDP would be the more correct number to use for a comparison. All EU member countries, minus one (Luxemburg) have significantly lower per-capita GDP than the US (Which is #2 in the world). While I couldn't find an overall "per-capita GDP" for the EU, if you were to average all EU member countries, it would fall well below the per-capita GDP of the U.S. (which is an average of the 50 states). LINK It is a bogus comparison. Another economic indicator is the rate of inflation. Almost all EU member countries have a higher rate of inflation than the US (stats at the same link as above). Almost every economic comparison I looked at, comparing the EU with the U.S., puts the U.S. on top (using averages, since there aren't "total" EU numbers yet). __________________ Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

03-14-2005, 11:15 AM	#131 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	NCB, a nation that takes 2-4% of it's unemployed and puts them in the armed forces and jail tends to have a lower unemployment rate. =) You do realize that, unlike every other western nation, the USA actually has military and jail populations large enough to significantly swing it's employement/unemployment rates? Canada could drive the unemployed into crime with well-designed social programs and engeneering, and lower our unemployment rate! That sounds like a solution! Then, we could make a military full of uneducated unemployable people, and send them off to be shot! Not only would those people be removed from the unemployment lines, this would allow us to funnel money into large government contracts, from which our politicians could get jobs and/or campaign contributions, and produce tonnes of goods that are destroyed! It's a perfect Keynsian solution, dig holes and bury the poor in them. . . ( WARNING: hyperbole levels reaching critical! ;-) ) Ayep, Germany and France's economies need some work. Of course, unlike the USA, they don't have a 5%+ annual current account deficit with no end in sight. They are, last I checked, actually running surplusses. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

03-14-2005, 12:57 PM	#136 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Perhaps it is time to get back on topic....before things degrade any further __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-14-2005, 10:44 PM	#138 (permalink)
Dyze Crazy	Maybe the EU is 20 years behind the US as you say (which is no true). But with the last growth, the EU has the potential to become a even bigger economic power. Whereas the US isolation only leads to one way: down. __________________ Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do.

03-14-2005, 12:40 PM	#135 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	wow. such exquisite insight. The preceding is an example of how incomplete statistics can be wielded in either side of an arguement. Also, it shows how an arguement can degenerate into gain-saying when the statistics are borne out to be faulty.